Total Posts:133|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Should I be fined for intolerance?

Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
SNP1
Posts: 2,406
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 8:50:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You need to understand something, no one is FORCING Christians to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings (as I assume you are trying to make an analogy). If they do not want to bake a wedding cake (which is part of their job), then they can CHOOSE to quit being a baker.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 10:52:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

Yes, "citizen". Every conscientious objector to war pays taxes that support war efforts and we can't complain or face imprisonment. I faced 5 years in Leavenworth when I went the conscientious objector route refusing to fight in the Vietnam War. I never went, never killed anyone and never suffered the PTSS of most all Vietnam vets. To take a stand against your nation is not easy but some things are important enough to honor Christ and God.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2015 11:10:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 10:52:01 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

Yes, "citizen". Every conscientious objector to war pays taxes that support war efforts and we can't complain or face imprisonment. I faced 5 years in Leavenworth when I went the conscientious objector route refusing to fight in the Vietnam War. I never went, never killed anyone and never suffered the PTSS of most all Vietnam vets. To take a stand against your nation is not easy but some things are important enough to honor Christ and God.

And what good did it to any person who fought that war ? a war where there was no enemy invading their borders.

The rich ruling class still get to be the rich ruling the class and those who return get what ? a parade ? a shiny medal ? Speech after speech about thanking these brave men and women for their service ?

If the rich ruling class had to fight in every so called war they claim is necessary for the nations protection.............I wonder how many wars would actually be fought.

So no I don't think you took at stand for God, I think you took a stand for yourself and not be misused and manipulated for an agenda that is against your interests.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 1:05:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 8:50:59 PM, SNP1 wrote:
You need to understand something, no one is FORCING Christians to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings (as I assume you are trying to make an analogy). If they do not want to bake a wedding cake (which is part of their job), then they can CHOOSE to quit being a baker.

Why quit. Don't they have the freedom to refrain from supporting a message they are morally against.

Did you know 10 out of 10 gay bakers refused to put 'support heterosexual marriage' on a cake they should be fined or quit.

But I don't think that. I think every business and people owning a business should have the right ( which they do constitutionally) to refuse to labor for speeches they don't agree with.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform an abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 2:31:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:29:50 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Should a black tailor be fined for not making a KKK hood and robe?

The KKK is an evil organisation and should be banned, imo!
Philocat
Posts: 728
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.


If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform an abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty. Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.


If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 5:47:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform an abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

Why do you believe that animals should be discriminated against?


If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 5:48:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

*organized
*vestments

Yes, an atheist tailor who refuses *should* be fined. I disagree with all others, but I think this is closest to the gay marriage issue.

Additionally, gay bakers who refuse to bake cakes for heterosexual marriages should also be fined IMO.


What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 5:58:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I think the difference is discrimination against a particular action, which is allowed, and discrimination between a particular demographic of person, which is not. In theory, if you made robes for all the black KKK members - or more realistically perhaps, robes for a variety of racial supremacy groups -, but refused to do so for the white ones, it would be racial discrimination and therefore impermissible. However, it's okay to refuse to make robes for racial supremacy groups in general.

Similarly, it's okay to refuse to do any abortions, but you did them for atheists (for example), you'd have to do them for everyone. If you refused to make any kind of wedding cakes on principal, it would be okay, but to refuse to make them for a certain group defined by sexual preference is discrimination.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 6:50:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.

Don't be obtuse. A wedding is between two people. It is the two people being denied a service.


If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform an abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.

Whatever. The situation wouldn't arise in a hospital unless the patient had some life-threatening condition with the pregnancy.


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty.

So?

Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.

The scenario was a truck driver asked to transport the animals. The anti-discrimination laws do not apply to animal testing anyway. Whatever gave you the impression they did? Lol.


If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 6:54:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 5:47:34 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform an abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

Why do you believe that animals should be discriminated against?

Who said I did? The poster was trying to intimate that the truck driver was discriminating against animal testing. I merely pointed out that this is not discrimination as the law currently stands.


If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
Philocat
Posts: 728
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:29:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 6:50:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.

Don't be obtuse. A wedding is between two people. It is the two people being denied a service.

Yes, the *people* are being denied a service, but they aren't the one's being discriminated against. It is the ceremony which is the subject of discrimination.

Returning to the capital punishment analogy, the executioner is being refused a service, but he isn't being discriminated against.



If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform ano abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.

Whatever. The situation wouldn't arise in a hospital unless the patient had some life-threatening condition with the pregnancy.

Again, not always the case. If there isn't a nearby clinic, abortions can be done for none-life-threatening (for the mother) reasons in a hospital.



If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty.

So?

It's not particularly relevant, but my point was that the government does give animals some legal protection.


Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.

The scenario was a truck driver asked to transport the animals. The anti-discrimination laws do not apply to animal testing anyway. Whatever gave you the impression they did? Lol.

That's my point, the truck driver is discriminating against animal testing, not the person doing the testing. Similarly, the Christian baker is discriminating against a gay marriage, not the people getting married.


If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes. That is discrimination.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:44:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

No, but you might face consequences for that decision.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

No, but then you should probably not work in that field either.

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

No, but you might face consequences for that decision.

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

Yes, you should face the consequences of that decision.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

No one is forcing anyone. Everything is optional except for the consequences. Should you be able to shirk your duties and expect no consequences for those actions?! No, but you are trying to avoid the 'bad thing' and all accountability for that decision. It doesn't work like that, and nor should it.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 10:49:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 8:50:59 PM, SNP1 wrote:
You need to understand something, no one is FORCING Christians to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings (as I assume you are trying to make an analogy). If they do not want to bake a wedding cake (which is part of their job), then they can CHOOSE to quit being a baker.
No one is forcing overworked flight crew personnel to work for an airline for a living. The question is, should they continue to be exploited and being deprived of sleep time just because flying is their livelihood?

When it comes to the cake maker, florist, wedding photographer, etc., the logic behind their penalization completely defies logic itself.

There are 2 approaches to the issue from the opposition (those against the business owners).

1. The defendants simply chose to broke the law, therefore they are subject to penalization (and shouldn't complain). The problem here is that if it's simply an issue of breaking a law, then everyone should be open to a changing of that law. If we're really putting so much faith in the decisions of our law makers, then it wouldn't really matter if they changed any law concerning same sex marriage tomorrow. If that should happen, and business owners are allowed to refuse to service same sex ceremonies based on religious conviction, then those in favor of penalization supposedly based on respect for law should embrace that change of law with equal fervency (without complaint).

But....it's not just about respecting law....

2. What's being put forth by the media, and repeated dogmatically from it's followers, is that the business owners are practicing a form of discrimination involving prejudicial treatment of different categories of people. It's not just a matter of breaking a law, but doing so with intent of harm. That the business owners hold hatred for the potential customers. This is an important message to convey to the public because if the business owners could convince the public that they had absolutely no hatred or harmful intent, that would be a big problem for their opposition.

It is absolutely phenomenal how many hold to a dogmatic assertion that without question, (see RuvDraba) any business owner who refuses to service a same sex ceremony hates the couple making the business request. They purposely refuse to service a same sex ceremony with intent to humiliate the couples in question. That the business owners in no way could possibly be refusing service without any discriminatory sentiment. They have to be....by dogmatic default....filled with hatred, or ill feelings towards the couples in question. That it cannot be strictly an issue of religious conviction without the discriminatory toppings constantly being attached to the business owners.

Someone keeps forgetting to close the windows, allowing for logic and reasoning to fly out.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 8:37:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:29:38 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 6:50:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.

Don't be obtuse. A wedding is between two people. It is the two people being denied a service.

Yes, the *people* are being denied a service, but they aren't the one's being discriminated against. It is the ceremony which is the subject of discrimination.

Oh, please. Get a reality check.

Returning to the capital punishment analogy, the executioner is being refused a service, but he isn't being discriminated against.

Wtf??? Please tell us, which anti-discrimination law applies here? Is it race, gender, age, disability, or religious beliefs?


If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform ano abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.

Whatever. The situation wouldn't arise in a hospital unless the patient had some life-threatening condition with the pregnancy.

Again, not always the case. If there isn't a nearby clinic, abortions can be done for none-life-threatening (for the mother) reasons in a hospital.

Assuming that is true, a hospital has no shortage of doctors. I am sure the hospital administrator would have no problem assigning a doctor willing to do the procedure. The patient doesn't get to choose.

Besides, a doctor has a perfect right to refuse non-life-threatening surgery to a patient. There is no anti-discrimination laws against this. What is your point exactly?


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty.

So?

It's not particularly relevant, but my point was that the government does give animals some legal protection.

Um, I know that. How did pointing this out contribute to this particular discussion on anti-discrimination laws?

Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.

The scenario was a truck driver asked to transport the animals. The anti-discrimination laws do not apply to animal testing anyway. Whatever gave you the impression they did? Lol.

That's my point, the truck driver is discriminating against animal testing, not the person doing the testing.

Not covered by anti-discrimination laws and therefore irrelevant.

Similarly, the Christian baker is discriminating against a gay marriage, not the people getting married.

Dude, all they (people!) wanted was a wedding cake baked for them. That's what bakers do. By refusing them the service which the baker is in business to provide, he was discriminating against them. It is irrelevant what they were going to do with the cake. That has nothing to do with the job of a baker - to simply bake cakes for a fee. The anti-discrimination laws apply to human beings and how they treat each other, not to ceremonies. No law and no court can rule on the rights of a ceremony to not be discriminated against. Lol. You are being ridiculous and not a little foolish in not understanding the law.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 8:53:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 8:50:59 PM, SNP1 wrote:
You need to understand something, no one is FORCING Christians to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings (as I assume you are trying to make an analogy). If they do not want to bake a wedding cake (which is part of their job), then they can CHOOSE to quit being a baker.

Of course not. The electrician, doctor, truck driver, and tailor can choose to be out of work as well.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:21:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?


No you should not.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

No you should not.

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?


No you should not.

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?


No you should not.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would say that forcing someone to do what they do not accept is reprehensible, and that the government should not be forcing people to provide their goods and services to sources that they do not approve of
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:23:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 1:05:22 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/23/2015 8:50:59 PM, SNP1 wrote:
You need to understand something, no one is FORCING Christians to bake wedding cakes for gay weddings (as I assume you are trying to make an analogy). If they do not want to bake a wedding cake (which is part of their job), then they can CHOOSE to quit being a baker.

Why quit. Don't they have the freedom to refrain from supporting a message they are morally against.

Did you know 10 out of 10 gay bakers refused to put 'support heterosexual marriage' on a cake they should be fined or quit.

But I don't think that. I think every business and people owning a business should have the right ( which they do constitutionally) to refuse to labor for speeches they don't agree with.

Although I am completely for homosexual rights, I must agree with your contention that no one should be forced to provide their labor in ways that they do not want to.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:29:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would answer "no" to all of those questions. the only exception I would make would be for the Doctor. If the mother's life was in danger and for some reason an abortion needed to be performed to save her life, but the pro-life doc refused and she died as a result, then he violated his Hippocratic Oath. so sanctions could be warranted, as his non-action could be construed as malpractice.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:37:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:21:06 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?


No you should not.

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

No you should not.

Due to a good argument made by someone else on this threat, I would like to recant my earlier position on the issue of a doctor performing an abortion.


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?


No you should not.

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?


No you should not.

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would say that forcing someone to do what they do not accept is reprehensible, and that the government should not be forcing people to provide their goods and services to sources that they do not approve of
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:43:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:29:49 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would answer "no" to all of those questions. the only exception I would make would be for the Doctor. If the mother's life was in danger and for some reason an abortion needed to be performed to save her life, but the pro-life doc refused and she died as a result, then he violated his Hippocratic Oath. so sanctions could be warranted, as his non-action could be construed as malpractice.

I agree. Abortions for that case were not illegal when abortion was illegal. Why this keeps coming up as a caveat I don't know.

I'm not reffering to any extraneous circumstances.

How do you feel about a baker being fined exuberant fine for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage?
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:43:42 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:29:49 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would answer "no" to all of those questions. the only exception I would make would be for the Doctor. If the mother's life was in danger and for some reason an abortion needed to be performed to save her life, but the pro-life doc refused and she died as a result, then he violated his Hippocratic Oath. so sanctions could be warranted, as his non-action could be construed as malpractice.

I agree. Abortions for that case were not illegal when abortion was illegal. Why this keeps coming up as a caveat I don't know.

I'm not reffering to any extraneous circumstances.

How do you feel about a baker being fined exuberant fine for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage?

I answered that question earlier but Ill tell you: here in America I think a business owner has the right to provide or refuse their services to whomever they choose. or not choose. if they work for a government institution funded by tax dollars then yes they are beholden to state and fed laws about discrimination. unfortunately! but private sector should be free to choose their clientele.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2015 9:59:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Illigalcombat, I was an atheist when I went conscientious objector. That's why I lost my case battling through the review boards and up to the 9th Circuit Court below Supreme Court--because at that time only recognized pacifist church membership like being a Quaker or Jehovah's Witness was recognized. I was "naturally Christian" in that I wasn't into violence or war, certainly not a war where two sides fight a civil war between them, no business of ours as the next colonials after the French messing up another country.

If you've never had any spiritual experiences, you don't know anything about spirituality other than other people's hearsay. So opinions of atheists are virtually worthless to those of us who have experienced God in spiritual communion.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2015 12:29:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 9:56:29 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:43:42 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:29:49 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

I would answer "no" to all of those questions. the only exception I would make would be for the Doctor. If the mother's life was in danger and for some reason an abortion needed to be performed to save her life, but the pro-life doc refused and she died as a result, then he violated his Hippocratic Oath. so sanctions could be warranted, as his non-action could be construed as malpractice.

I agree. Abortions for that case were not illegal when abortion was illegal. Why this keeps coming up as a caveat I don't know.

I'm not reffering to any extraneous circumstances.

How do you feel about a baker being fined exuberant fine for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage?

I answered that question earlier but Ill tell you: here in America I think a business owner has the right to provide or refuse their services to whomever they choose. or not choose. if they work for a government institution funded by tax dollars then yes they are beholden to state and fed laws about discrimination. unfortunately! but private sector should be free to choose their clientele.

So, to clarify, you would be an advocate for a business which consistently refused to serve a specific race for arbitrary reasons?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Philocat
Posts: 728
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2015 6:31:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2015 8:37:17 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:29:38 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 6:50:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.

Don't be obtuse. A wedding is between two people. It is the two people being denied a service.

Yes, the *people* are being denied a service, but they aren't the one's being discriminated against. It is the ceremony which is the subject of discrimination.

Oh, please. Get a reality check.

Thanks for that intelligent rebuttal.


Returning to the capital punishment analogy, the executioner is being refused a service, but he isn't being discriminated against.

Wtf??? Please tell us, which anti-discrimination law applies here? Is it race, gender, age, disability, or religious beliefs?

I didn't say that any anti-discrimination law applies; there doesn't need to be any anti-discrimination law in order for there to be discrimination.

Discrimination is simply the prejudicial treatment of a person or thing based on its category; you can discriminate based on size, strength, density, volume, job, social class or pretty much any property that a person or thing may have. Anti-discrimination laws only apply to discrimination against a few properties - race, sex, sexuality, disability, religion and age. A form of discrimination doesn't need to be covered by anti-discrimination laws in order to be a form of discrimination.

Now, consider that an electrician is against the death penalty, and therefore refuses to fix an electric chair. Who is he discriminating against? He's discriminating against the practice of executions. But who he is denying the service to is the owner of the electric chair. The subject of discrimination and the subject of denial of service is different. That is my point.



If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform ano abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.

Whatever. The situation wouldn't arise in a hospital unless the patient had some life-threatening condition with the pregnancy.

Again, not always the case. If there isn't a nearby clinic, abortions can be done for none-life-threatening (for the mother) reasons in a hospital.

Assuming that is true, a hospital has no shortage of doctors. I am sure the hospital administrator would have no problem assigning a doctor willing to do the procedure. The patient doesn't get to choose.

If only that were true; in Scotland, two midwives were threatened with their jobs if they didn't assist abortions.


Besides, a doctor has a perfect right to refuse non-life-threatening surgery to a patient. There is no anti-discrimination laws against this. What is your point exactly?


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty.

So?

It's not particularly relevant, but my point was that the government does give animals some legal protection.

Um, I know that. How did pointing this out contribute to this particular discussion on anti-discrimination laws?

As I said, 'it's not particularly relevant'.

Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.

The scenario was a truck driver asked to transport the animals. The anti-discrimination laws do not apply to animal testing anyway. Whatever gave you the impression they did? Lol.

That's my point, the truck driver is discriminating against animal testing, not the person doing the testing.

Not covered by anti-discrimination laws and therefore irrelevant.

I never brought up anti-discrimination laws; this isn't even a discussion about legality. All the point of the OP was was to demonstrate that the subject of discrimination and the subject of denial of service is sometimes different, which is relevant to the debate over bakers and gay wedding cakes.

Similarly, the Christian baker is discriminating against a gay marriage, not the people getting married.

Dude, all they (people!) wanted was a wedding cake baked for them. That's what bakers do. By refusing them the service which the baker is in business to provide, he was discriminating against them.

No, because if a straight person had asked for a cake for a same-sex wedding then he would have been similarly refused. If the baker was discriminating against sexuality, then this would mean that a straight person is being discriminated against because he is gay (which is a contradiction).

It is irrelevant what they were going to do with the cake. That has nothing to do with the job of a baker - to simply bake cakes for a fee.

The baker has a right to decide what the fruits of his labour are used for. After all, he's the one who's putting the effort in.

Let's flip the scenario, what if you were a black baker who was asked to make a cake for a KKK meeting, wouldn't you have the right to refuse?

The anti-discrimination laws apply to human beings and how they treat each other, not to ceremonies. No law and no court can rule on the rights of a ceremony to not be discriminated against.

That's my point!! The law can't stop a baker from discriminating against a ceremony, which is what he is doing by not making a cake for a gay wedding but making a cake for a straight wedding.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2015 7:44:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 6:31:42 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 8:37:17 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 9:29:38 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 6:50:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/24/2015 3:32:22 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 7/24/2015 2:08:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

An electric chair is not a person and cannot be discriminated against. Lol.

A gay marriage ceremony is not a person either. A baker refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding is discriminating against different types of ceremony.

Don't be obtuse. A wedding is between two people. It is the two people being denied a service.

Yes, the *people* are being denied a service, but they aren't the one's being discriminated against. It is the ceremony which is the subject of discrimination.

Oh, please. Get a reality check.

Thanks for that intelligent rebuttal.

I'm afraid it was all it warranted. Post something more intelligent and you'll get a better response.

Returning to the capital punishment analogy, the executioner is being refused a service, but he isn't being discriminated against.

Wtf??? Please tell us, which anti-discrimination law applies here? Is it race, gender, age, disability, or religious beliefs?

I didn't say that any anti-discrimination law applies; there doesn't need to be any anti-discrimination law in order for there to be discrimination.

Discrimination is simply the prejudicial treatment of a person or thing based on its category; you can discriminate based on size, strength, density, volume, job, social class or pretty much any property that a person or thing may have. Anti-discrimination laws only apply to discrimination against a few properties - race, sex, sexuality, disability, religion and age. A form of discrimination doesn't need to be covered by anti-discrimination laws in order to be a form of discrimination.

Now, consider that an electrician is against the death penalty, and therefore refuses to fix an electric chair. Who is he discriminating against? He's discriminating against the practice of executions. But who he is denying the service to is the owner of the electric chair. The subject of discrimination and the subject of denial of service is different. That is my point.

Fantastic. So the 'executioner' is going to fine the electrician $100,000 for failure to repair the electric chair. Please tell us what law he will be imposing a fine under. Or did you miss the actual point? Lol.


If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

Doctors willing to perform abortions work in special clinics under stringent guidelines. If they weren't willing to perform ano abortion, they wouldn't be working there.

Not always the case, abortions can be performed within a normal hospital.

Whatever. The situation wouldn't arise in a hospital unless the patient had some life-threatening condition with the pregnancy.

Again, not always the case. If there isn't a nearby clinic, abortions can be done for none-life-threatening (for the mother) reasons in a hospital.

Assuming that is true, a hospital has no shortage of doctors. I am sure the hospital administrator would have no problem assigning a doctor willing to do the procedure. The patient doesn't get to choose.

If only that were true; in Scotland, two midwives were threatened with their jobs if they didn't assist abortions.

How is this relevant in any way to the original scenario?

Besides, a doctor has a perfect right to refuse non-life-threatening surgery to a patient. There is no anti-discrimination laws against this. What is your point exactly?


If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

Animals are not humans and are not the subject to anti-discrimination laws.

There are still laws against animal cruelty.

So?

It's not particularly relevant, but my point was that the government does give animals some legal protection.

Um, I know that. How did pointing this out contribute to this particular discussion on anti-discrimination laws?

As I said, 'it's not particularly relevant'.

Besides, it doesn't matter whether they are subject to anti-discrimination laws because the animals aren't the subject of discrimination in this example. The discrimination is against animal testing.

The scenario was a truck driver asked to transport the animals. The anti-discrimination laws do not apply to animal testing anyway. Whatever gave you the impression they did? Lol.

That's my point, the truck driver is discriminating against animal testing, not the person doing the testing.

Not covered by anti-discrimination laws and therefore irrelevant.

I never brought up anti-discrimination laws; this isn't even a discussion about legality. All the point of the OP was was to demonstrate that the subject of discrimination and the subject of denial of service is sometimes different, which is relevant to the debate over bakers and gay wedding cakes.

If the discussion is not about legality, on what basis is there a $100,000 fine?

Similarly, the Christian baker is discriminating against a gay marriage, not the people getting married.

Dude, all they (people!) wanted was a wedding cake baked for them. That's what bakers do. By refusing them the service which the baker is in business to provide, he was discriminating against them.

No, because if a straight person had asked for a cake for a same-sex wedding then he would have been similarly refused. If the baker was discriminating against sexuality, then this would mean that a straight person is being discriminated against because he is gay (which is a contradiction).

Why would a straight man ask for a cake for a same-sex marriage and how could he prove he was straight? Lol.

Of course the baker was discriminating on the basis of their religious beliefs. He admitted as much. This is not in dispute. The court upheld the charge. Get over it.

It is irrelevant what they were going to do with the cake. That has nothing to do with the job of a baker - to simply bake cakes for a fee.

The baker has a right to decide what the fruits of his labour are used for. After all, he's the one who's putting the effort in.

And he gets monetary compensation plus profit. That's how a business works. And no, the baker does not have a right to discriminate against who he serves. That is the law.

Let's flip the scenario, what if you were a black baker who was asked to make a cake for a KKK meeting, wouldn't you have the right to refuse?

No. If it was me I would just add some arsenic.

The anti-discrimination laws apply to human beings and how they treat each other, not to ceremonies. No law and no court can rule on the rights of a ceremony to not be discriminated against.

That's my point!! The law can't stop a baker from discriminating against a ceremony, which is what he is doing by not making a cake for a gay wedding but making a cake for a straight wedding.

It's discrimination based on religious beliefs. You insisting it's about the ceremony itself is as absurd as it is hilarious.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2015 8:31:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:23:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I am an electrician against capitol punishment for moral reasons, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to repair an electric chair?

If I am a doctor who finds abortion to be against a moral oath, should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to perform one?

If I am a truck driver who finds animal testing morally reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for refusing to transport test animals?

If I am an Atheist tailor and find orgainzed religion to be reprehensible should I be fined 100,000 dollars for not making a church vestiments and choir robes?

What is the word for when someone is forced into performing labors to an end they are morally against?

Wow, you really are a slow learner, you still haven't figured out what discrimination is all about. Hilarious.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth