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Circular reasoning? ........or

EtrnlVw
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7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge, always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.
You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.
EtrnlVw
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7/25/2015 7:52:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.

My question is towards the accusation atheists make when we utilize scripture as a source, they call it "circular reasoning" and use that to reject the observation being made. My argument is that it is not circular reasoning but a point of reference, pretty simple, if this is not something that relates to you then I am sorry.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge

Of course you do, each time you're challenged and can't form an argument, you accuse the other person of not understanding "spiritual" matters, but you do, hence the claim of special knowledge.

always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,131
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7/25/2015 8:25:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 7:52:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.

My question is towards the accusation atheists make when we utilize scripture as a source, they call it "circular reasoning" and use that to reject the observation being made. My argument is that it is not circular reasoning but a point of reference, pretty simple, if this is not something that relates to you then I am sorry.

Point of reference: A fact forming a basis for evaluation or assessment.

You must rely on sources outside the Bible to establish whether the Bible is fact. If you assume the source is a fact based on the source, then that is circular reasoning.

Another poster mentioned the Bible is a collection of books and there may be cases where the Bible can corroborate itself, and that is a fair point. However, if the later books were relying on the unproven claims of the earlier books (which I think they were) then we still have circular reasoning.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/25/2015 8:42:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

when I was an Atheist andI used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge

Of course you do, each time you're challenged and can't form an argument, you accuse the other person of not understanding "spiritual" matters, but you do, hence the claim of special knowledge.

always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/26/2015 10:07:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge

Of course you do, each time you're challenged and can't form an argument, you accuse the other person of not understanding "spiritual" matters, but you do, hence the claim of special knowledge.

always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.

I'm so terribly sorry, although I would very much like to believe your story, however I'm not of the school of thought of those who claim they were once atheists and are now Saved Christians, I seriously doubt they were ever atheists.

How someone could reasonably and rationally critique the claims of theists to come to the conclusion their claims were empty and for the most part based on ancient Bronze Age myths and superstitions, and then for no reason at all, suddenly embrace them, could only, in my opinion, be the result of a pre-frontal lobotomy.

If this is not the case, then perhaps you've simply gone insane.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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7/26/2015 10:38:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Using scripture to validate a claim that scripture is inerrant and sacrosanct is called 'circular reasoning'. In fact, using scripture to validate any claim made about the validity of scripture is circular reasoning.
Nac
Posts: 326
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7/26/2015 10:56:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 7:52:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.

My question is towards the accusation atheists make when we utilize scripture as a source, they call it "circular reasoning" and use that to reject the observation being made. My argument is that it is not circular reasoning but a point of reference, pretty simple, if this is not something that relates to you then I am sorry.

Could you please provide an example of this? In regards to this particular issue, context is key.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,079
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7/26/2015 11:28:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

EtrnlVw Good to meet you..

I reply: "Circular reasoning"!

"Scriptures ALONE are the ONLY authority"!
As opposed to....
Scriptures..... "Listen to the Church or be treated as a Pagan"!
Scriptures... "The CHURCH is the Pillar and the foundation of TRUTH"!
Scriptures.... "The CHURCH is the Body of Jesus"!
Scriptures... "Go and TEACH all nations with the AUTHORITY of God"!
Scriptures... "Your TEACHING will save both your self and those who hear you"!
Scriptures.. "The Church is Holy & Blameless"!
Scriptures... "Jesus LOVES the CHURCH & died for the Church"!
Scriptures..... "I will send the Holy Spirit to be with you >FOREVER<!"
Dogknox
Posts: 5,079
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7/26/2015 2:40:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 10:56:59 AM, Nac wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:52:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.

My question is towards the accusation atheists make when we utilize scripture as a source, they call it "circular reasoning" and use that to reject the observation being made. My argument is that it is not circular reasoning but a point of reference, pretty simple, if this is not something that relates to you then I am sorry.

Could you please provide an example of this? In regards to this particular issue, context is key.

Nac Good to meet you..
I reply: Read post #11 just above yours.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/26/2015 3:28:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 10:07:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge

Of course you do, each time you're challenged and can't form an argument, you accuse the other person of not understanding "spiritual" matters, but you do, hence the claim of special knowledge.

always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.

I'm so terribly sorry, although I would very much like to believe your story, however I'm not of the school of thought of those who claim they were once atheists and are now Saved Christians, I seriously doubt they were ever atheists.

How someone could reasonably and rationally critique the claims of theists to come to the conclusion their claims were empty and for the most part based on ancient Bronze Age myths and superstitions, and then for no reason at all, suddenly embrace them, could only, in my opinion, be the result of a pre-frontal lobotomy.

If this is not the case, then perhaps you've simply gone insane.

you really should read my posts better. Well if you want to that is. I dont suddenly embrace the OT Mythos. Some of it yes can be useful as fables and stories to learn from. Just like the parables of Jesus. Using hypothetical examples to convey larger truths that are too big for common words. I WAS an atheist for a couple decades. more strident than you are maybe. as far as going insane, sure, I understand thats how my Testimony could seem to somebody who has never been there. Like a guy with headphones on who cant hear and sees people getting moved spiritually by a Mozart sonata. they go, "what the hell is wrong with them? why are they acting crazy like that? are they insane?
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/26/2015 4:04:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 3:28:30 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 10:07:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

Never once in my entire life claimed to have special knowledge

Of course you do, each time you're challenged and can't form an argument, you accuse the other person of not understanding "spiritual" matters, but you do, hence the claim of special knowledge.

always lies come out of you, are you aware of that or do you just ignore it?
I've defined spiritual.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.

I'm so terribly sorry, although I would very much like to believe your story, however I'm not of the school of thought of those who claim they were once atheists and are now Saved Christians, I seriously doubt they were ever atheists.

How someone could reasonably and rationally critique the claims of theists to come to the conclusion their claims were empty and for the most part based on ancient Bronze Age myths and superstitions, and then for no reason at all, suddenly embrace them, could only, in my opinion, be the result of a pre-frontal lobotomy.

If this is not the case, then perhaps you've simply gone insane.

you really should read my posts better. Well if you want to that is. I dont suddenly embrace the OT Mythos. Some of it yes can be useful as fables and stories to learn from. Just like the parables of Jesus. Using hypothetical examples to convey larger truths that are too big for common words. I WAS an atheist for a couple decades. more strident than you are maybe. as far as going insane, sure, I understand thats how my Testimony could seem to somebody who has never been there. Like a guy with headphones on who cant hear and sees people getting moved spiritually by a Mozart sonata. they go, "what the hell is wrong with them? why are they acting crazy like that? are they insane?

If you're going to use analogies, you need to make sure they are relevant and valid. Mozart's music is quite real. On the other hand, your God has never been shown to exist, hence comparing something that does exist to something that has not been shown to exist is not valid. If you're going to compare your God to something, it would have to be along the lines of invisible friends or unicorns and leprechauns in order for it to be relevant and valid.

In this case, yes, they would appear to be acting insane considering you have yet to define the word, "spiritually".
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 4:04:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 3:28:30 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 10:07:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.

I'm so terribly sorry, although I would very much like to believe your story, however I'm not of the school of thought of those who claim they were once atheists and are now Saved Christians, I seriously doubt they were ever atheists.

How someone could reasonably and rationally critique the claims of theists to come to the conclusion their claims were empty and for the most part based on ancient Bronze Age myths and superstitions, and then for no reason at all, suddenly embrace them, could only, in my opinion, be the result of a pre-frontal lobotomy.

If this is not the case, then perhaps you've simply gone insane.

you really should read my posts better. Well if you want to that is. I dont suddenly embrace the OT Mythos. Some of it yes can be useful as fables and stories to learn from. Just like the parables of Jesus. Using hypothetical examples to convey larger truths that are too big for common words. I WAS an atheist for a couple decades. more strident than you are maybe. as far as going insane, sure, I understand thats how my Testimony could seem to somebody who has never been there. Like a guy with headphones on who cant hear and sees people getting moved spiritually by a Mozart sonata. they go, "what the hell is wrong with them? why are they acting crazy like that? are they insane?

If you're going to use analogies, you need to make sure they are relevant and valid. Mozart's music is quite real. On the other hand, your God has never been shown to exist, hence comparing something that does exist to something that has not been shown to exist is not valid. If you're going to compare your God to something, it would have to be along the lines of invisible friends or unicorns and leprechauns in order for it to be relevant and valid.

In this case, yes, they would appear to be acting insane considering you have yet to define the word, "spiritually".

You make a valid point, sir. And I know very well that many things us Christians believe in are all but impossible to prove or even explain in a way that will convince an Atheist. Words just simply fall short. That's all there is too it. So I try my best with analogies and metaphors, but even they're found wanting.

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/26/2015 5:19:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:04:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 3:28:30 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 10:07:19 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:47:37 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:17:10 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:24:25 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:23:52 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

YOU constantly claim to have special knowledge, which you refer to as 'spirit/spiritual realm, etc., yet you have never defined those terms, so yes, you are just making up crap our of your own head, that is obvious. There is no point of reference, that's all baloney.

And yet, that is a lie, you've never once defined spiritual, you have only told me what it isn't and not what it is. It's clear you have no idea what it is but pretend that you do. It's so childish.

You never answered or addressed anything as usual, the same lines every time, you've bored me to the point of no return the only reason I'm replying is because although you're a creepy lying stalker, you remain a faithful one, so the least I can do is throw ya a bone here and there because we all need groupies.

Then, as usual, you resort to name calling, once again, because you can't support your claims. So childish.

He is being a little unfair and is tap-dancing around good Atheist questions. I used to hate that when I was an Atheist and would do verbal battle with Christians. I want to defend his tactic though and say not all of us are like that/
Before I was Saved By God--I had no choice! He slapped me in the Face! Well, I used to argue about the existence of God with religious people, usually Christians, it would annoy the Hell out of me when they would keep hiding in their circular logic. even anger me! Ha! I admit it. because its impossible to refute, if they keep going back to their Bible. there was a scientist--maybe Hawking?--who once made a fable about this,how hard something is to disprove. he used an idea of a magic dragon he had at home and challenged people to disprove it. It was invisible and couldnt be measured. Like God.
answering the OP>>>I think that if the only argument a Christian can offer for God or for like a miracle from the Bible IS just the Bible and he has nothing else. if he doesnt have a secular source, then yeah its is circular reasoning.
And I say this as a Christian. I admit we cannot prove much of what we believe. All we can do is offer our thoughts the best way we can. And be honest. And pray that God helps us help others try to know Him. thats it! Like when I wrote my testimony on a thread here in religion about how I was Saved. I knew some people wont believe me but I did my best to describe what happened to me, as honest as I could. And I dont get mad if they disbelieve. But its funny I used to get mad when I was an atheist andI couldn't convince Christians they were wrong! Ha! I wonder why that is now? why dont I get angry anymore. (there is a hint in that question for Atheists!!) if you get the answer you will learn about yourself! this I promise.

I'm so terribly sorry, although I would very much like to believe your story, however I'm not of the school of thought of those who claim they were once atheists and are now Saved Christians, I seriously doubt they were ever atheists.

How someone could reasonably and rationally critique the claims of theists to come to the conclusion their claims were empty and for the most part based on ancient Bronze Age myths and superstitions, and then for no reason at all, suddenly embrace them, could only, in my opinion, be the result of a pre-frontal lobotomy.

If this is not the case, then perhaps you've simply gone insane.

you really should read my posts better. Well if you want to that is. I dont suddenly embrace the OT Mythos. Some of it yes can be useful as fables and stories to learn from. Just like the parables of Jesus. Using hypothetical examples to convey larger truths that are too big for common words. I WAS an atheist for a couple decades. more strident than you are maybe. as far as going insane, sure, I understand thats how my Testimony could seem to somebody who has never been there. Like a guy with headphones on who cant hear and sees people getting moved spiritually by a Mozart sonata. they go, "what the hell is wrong with them? why are they acting crazy like that? are they insane?

If you're going to use analogies, you need to make sure they are relevant and valid. Mozart's music is quite real. On the other hand, your God has never been shown to exist, hence comparing something that does exist to something that has not been shown to exist is not valid. If you're going to compare your God to something, it would have to be along the lines of invisible friends or unicorns and leprechauns in order for it to be relevant and valid.

In this case, yes, they would appear to be acting insane considering you have yet to define the word, "spiritually".

You make a valid point, sir. And I know very well that many things us Christians believe in are all but impossible to prove or even explain in a way that will convince an Atheist. Words just simply fall short. That's all there is too it. So I try my best with analogies and metaphors, but even they're found wanting.

It's usually because many things Christians believe are indeed insane and they simply cannot explain those irrational beliefs. Words are empty with proof, and you have none.

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/26/2015 7:26:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

please dont confuse your inability to understand my definition with an inability to define something. I gave my definition. As anybody who read it will admit. Its there for all to see. But apparently not there for everyone to be able to relate too. Like my flying example should have explained to you. anybody who HAS spirituality through the Grace of God knows what Im speaking of. You? Not so much. for that I am truly sorry. remember I have been where you are now. And I am very grateful I am there no longer.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/26/2015 7:33:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

I am sorry for your being bereft of the word I defined. and it occurred to me that your asking us to define it is simply an attack strategy for you. since ANY definition we give will be dismissed out of hand by you. so that makes me ask why you ask? why do you come to the Religion Forums, sir? Why do you troll Forums for the sake of attacking and mocking? Is your life really that empty? Or are you that angry? (FWIW: I know the answers to those questions, as again I was there for many years.) this is an advantage I have over you since you have not been (Saved) where I am. This is why you will never best me in a discussion. you posts make me smile! Truly they do. because again they are all so familiar. Funny how I dont get angry but you do. I wonder why that is? (Hint: it has to do with confidence and being comfortable in one's own skin, and not being fear-driven.) Again, for this I am truly sorry for you. I will pray for you and your ilk. I do every night anyway.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
bulproof
Posts: 25,288
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7/26/2015 8:48:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

So now define the spirit of god or his spirit or his grace or spiritually motivated, you are attempting to use the word to define the word, circular reasoning.
August_Burns_Red
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7/26/2015 8:55:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 8:48:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

So now define the spirit of god or his spirit or his grace or spiritually motivated, you are attempting to use the word to define the word, circular reasoning.

OK.
"Spirit of God"........That force which consists of God's Will, Wisdom, and Grace which He Emanates to those He chooses to. I will now call it "Grace." God uses the power of His Cosmic Telepathy to engage the receiving person with his Grace. It becomes a product of the person's Soul. A part of his Emotional and Intellectual Make-up. It is his "animism." His personality. A part of his Mind that is now Infinite since it is enmeshed with God's. It is separate from his physical self. God uses this Spirit, this Grace, to enmesh His chosen.

How's that?
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
bulproof
Posts: 25,288
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7/26/2015 9:06:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 8:55:36 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 8:48:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

So now define the spirit of god or his spirit or his grace or spiritually motivated, you are attempting to use the word to define the word, circular reasoning.

OK.
"Spirit of God"........That force which consists of God's Will, Wisdom, and Grace which He Emanates to those He chooses to. I will now call it "Grace." God uses the power of His Cosmic Telepathy to engage the receiving person with his Grace. It becomes a product of the person's Soul. A part of his Emotional and Intellectual Make-up. It is his "animism." His personality. A part of his Mind that is now Infinite since it is enmeshed with God's. It is separate from his physical self. God uses this Spirit, this Grace, to enmesh His chosen.

How's that?
You're still using circular reasoning.
Define spirit without using the word spirit or vague meaningless terms.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/26/2015 10:06:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 8:55:36 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 8:48:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

So now define the spirit of god or his spirit or his grace or spiritually motivated, you are attempting to use the word to define the word, circular reasoning.

OK.
"Spirit of God"........That force which consists of God's Will, Wisdom, and Grace which He Emanates to those He chooses to. I will now call it "Grace." God uses the power of His Cosmic Telepathy to engage the receiving person with his Grace. It becomes a product of the person's Soul. A part of his Emotional and Intellectual Make-up. It is his "animism." His personality. A part of his Mind that is now Infinite since it is enmeshed with God's. It is separate from his physical self. God uses this Spirit, this Grace, to enmesh His chosen.

How's that?

bulproof is a troll.

I wouldn't answer him.

What ever you answer is will be followed with no more than 5 seconds of thought while bulprof just asks another question. There is no intent on His behalf to understand you.

there is no intent on bulpoop's part to understand and respond to you as another rational human being. His mode of operation is to incessantly ask why and claim winning when you have exhausted all explanations and find yourself somewhere in a domain you are ignorant of.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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7/27/2015 7:36:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2015 7:52:35 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/25/2015 7:47:41 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/25/2015 8:05:18 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
...... Point of reference- something to which somebody can refer in order to check direction or progress, as a guide to action or conduct, or as an aid to understanding or communication.

Is using the information in scripture circular reasoning or a point of reference?

I say point of reference and here is why...

Because we need information as a source to derive knowledge just like anything we study or want to learn about there must be a form of source.

Referencing scripture is not simply circular reasoning because just like science there is an application, and application makes way for observation for instance, you can obtain an agriculture book and read how to yield crops and plant seeds to harvest OR, you can tend your own field, plant the seeds and observe the fruit, the spirit is the same way but we need the scriptures as a reference point, a starting point.

Having a foundation laid is very important in any structure, without it would produce chaos, more than there already is lol. So when a theist references scripture they are not trying to reason in circles, they are using it as a source to say "hey, I'm not just making crap up out of my own head, there is an observation and I'm referencing scripture as a source of aid for communication".

Anyways theists and atheist what is your fair opinion? Do we need a source of knowledge or not? is referencing scripture "circular reasoning"....?

I don't think your question makes sense, because you are referring only to a source of information without connecting it to the conclusions being derived. An argument is only circular if its conclusions, or derivations, were required to be true a priori (or in the premises or source of information).

So to answer a possible version of your question that is predicated on a correct understanding of circular reasoning, it is not circular if you are concluding or deriving extra-biblical statements. But if you are using the bible to derive a conclusion which is assumed or asserted within the bible, then it is very likely a circular argument. There may be exceptions, since the bible is a collection of texts written at different times.

My question is towards the accusation atheists make when we utilize scripture as a source, they call it "circular reasoning" and use that to reject the observation being made. My argument is that it is not circular reasoning but a point of reference, pretty simple, if this is not something that relates to you then I am sorry.

That is precisely the question I responded to.
bulproof
Posts: 25,288
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7/27/2015 7:39:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 10:06:12 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/26/2015 8:55:36 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 8:48:25 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit. This is one things Atheists dont have. I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

So now define the spirit of god or his spirit or his grace or spiritually motivated, you are attempting to use the word to define the word, circular reasoning.

OK.
"Spirit of God"........That force which consists of God's Will, Wisdom, and Grace which He Emanates to those He chooses to. I will now call it "Grace." God uses the power of His Cosmic Telepathy to engage the receiving person with his Grace. It becomes a product of the person's Soul. A part of his Emotional and Intellectual Make-up. It is his "animism." His personality. A part of his Mind that is now Infinite since it is enmeshed with God's. It is separate from his physical self. God uses this Spirit, this Grace, to enmesh His chosen.

How's that?

bulproof is a troll.

I wouldn't answer him.

HAHA says the coward of the county.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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7/27/2015 7:42:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 7:33:54 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

I am sorry for your being bereft of the word I defined. and it occurred to me that your asking us to define it is simply an attack strategy for you. since ANY definition we give will be dismissed out of hand by you. so that makes me ask why you ask? why do you come to the Religion Forums, sir? Why do you troll Forums for the sake of attacking and mocking? Is your life really that empty? Or are you that angry? (FWIW: I know the answers to those questions, as again I was there for many years.) this is an advantage I have over you since you have not been (Saved) where I am. This is why you will never best me in a discussion. you posts make me smile! Truly they do. because again they are all so familiar. Funny how I dont get angry but you do. I wonder why that is? (Hint: it has to do with confidence and being comfortable in one's own skin, and not being fear-driven.) Again, for this I am truly sorry for you. I will pray for you and your ilk. I do every night anyway.

To be fair, your definition was quite circular and doesn't explain anything to someone who doesn't already know what you mean. If you asked me to define "differentiable manifold" and I told you "well, it's a manifold that's differentiable", then I'm not being very helpful, even if the statement is true.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/27/2015 7:44:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 7:26:57 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

please dont confuse your inability to understand my definition with an inability to define something. I gave my definition. As anybody who read it will admit. Its there for all to see. But apparently not there for everyone to be able to relate too. Like my flying example should have explained to you. anybody who HAS spirituality through the Grace of God knows what Im speaking of. You? Not so much. for that I am truly sorry. remember I have been where you are now. And I am very grateful I am there no longer.

Sorry, but you have not provided any definition that clearly defines that word. Try again.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,635
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7/27/2015 7:49:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2015 7:33:54 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/26/2015 5:36:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/26/2015 4:53:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Define "spiritually?" Well To me, anything having to do with the Spirit of God. Anything that is touched by His Spirit and His Grace. AS in spiritually motivated or inspired. Of the Spirit.

Yes, as I suspected, you are also incapable of defining spiritually. It's just a nonsensical word believers toss around when they have nothing to say or can't explain something. We often replace the term with, "Ooga-booga" as it sounds more interesting and has exactly the same meaning,

This is one things Atheists dont have.

Made up words that have no meaning? Yes, that's true.

I didnt when I was one. To them it is only a word. Like saying "flying like a bird." they can say it but they cannot experience it.
Im more of

I am sorry for your being bereft of the word I defined. and it occurred to me that your asking us to define it is simply an attack strategy for you. since ANY definition we give will be dismissed out of hand by you. so that makes me ask why you ask? why do you come to the Religion Forums, sir? Why do you troll Forums for the sake of attacking and mocking? Is your life really that empty? Or are you that angry? (FWIW: I know the answers to those questions, as again I was there for many years.) this is an advantage I have over you since you have not been (Saved) where I am. This is why you will never best me in a discussion. you posts make me smile! Truly they do. because again they are all so familiar. Funny how I dont get angry but you do. I wonder why that is? (Hint: it has to do with confidence and being comfortable in one's own skin, and not being fear-driven.) Again, for this I am truly sorry for you. I will pray for you and your ilk. I do every night anyway.

Yes, I understand you're compelled to blame others for your failures, then pretend you're superior and make up lies, that is a typical childish attitude.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth