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Father or Jesus

tstor
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7/27/2015 12:47:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?
I worship the Father, as Jesus said. Consider these verses for guidance:

Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" (NIV)

John 4:23: "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers." (NIV)

However, people like to use Hebrews 1:6 to worship Jesus, which reads:
"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him (Jesus).'" (NIV)
How can we interpret this in the light of what the Bible says about idolatry?

First, we have to understand what Paul meant in this verse by "worship". He used the Greek word "proskyneo". Let's reference Unger"s Bible Dictionary, which says that this word literally means to "kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage." In Bible times "proskyneo" often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature, such as Jesus.

Take into consideration the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a large debt to his master. A form of this Greek word is in this parable, the King James Version says that "the servant therefore fell down, and worshiped (proskyneo) him (the king), saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." (Matthew 18:26) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? No, he was only expressing the kind of respect that is typical for the king, his master and superior.

Such expressions of respect were fairly common in Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times when meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph"s brothers prostrated themselves for him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when they "fell down, and worshiped (proskyneo) him." (Matthew 2:2, 11)

So we can now see that the word "proskyneo", which is rendered "worship" in some Bible translations, is not exclusively for the type of deep love and respect that is reserved for our Father. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. Such as in some Bible translations, which render the word "proskyneo" at Hebrews 1:6 as "pay him homage" (New Jerusalem Bible), "honour him" (The Complete Bible in Modern English), or "bow down before him" (Twentieth Century New Testament)

Hopefully this cleared everything up for you, God bless.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 1:08:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 12:47:31 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?
I worship the Father, as Jesus said. Consider these verses for guidance:

Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" (NIV)

John 4:23: "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers." (NIV)

However, people like to use Hebrews 1:6 to worship Jesus, which reads:
"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him (Jesus).'" (NIV)
How can we interpret this in the light of what the Bible says about idolatry?

First, we have to understand what Paul meant in this verse by "worship". He used the Greek word "proskyneo". Let's reference Unger"s Bible Dictionary, which says that this word literally means to "kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage." In Bible times "proskyneo" often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature, such as Jesus.

Take into consideration the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a large debt to his master. A form of this Greek word is in this parable, the King James Version says that "the servant therefore fell down, and worshiped (proskyneo) him (the king), saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." (Matthew 18:26) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? No, he was only expressing the kind of respect that is typical for the king, his master and superior.

Such expressions of respect were fairly common in Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times when meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph"s brothers prostrated themselves for him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when they "fell down, and worshiped (proskyneo) him." (Matthew 2:2, 11)

So we can now see that the word "proskyneo", which is rendered "worship" in some Bible translations, is not exclusively for the type of deep love and respect that is reserved for our Father. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. Such as in some Bible translations, which render the word "proskyneo" at Hebrews 1:6 as "pay him homage" (New Jerusalem Bible), "honour him" (The Complete Bible in Modern English), or "bow down before him" (Twentieth Century New Testament)

Hopefully this cleared everything up for you, God bless. : :

I do not worship Jesus because he is not my Father.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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7/27/2015 1:11:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:08:51 AM, talmud wrote:

I do not worship Jesus because he is not my Father.
I guess I could have just said that and saved a lot of time lol
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 1:43:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:11:01 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:08:51 AM, talmud wrote:

I do not worship Jesus because he is not my Father.
I guess I could have just said that and saved a lot of time lol : :

That's okay. I'm learning which forum member worships the true Savior.

Deuteronomy 32:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

2 Samuel 22:
1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:
2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/27/2015 3:18:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't worship anyone or anything! Anyone, human or entity, who requires worship is too up themselves!
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
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7/27/2015 3:32:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I worship Jesus.... My Lord and my saviour..
But through that I worship the father as to me with the Holy Spirit they are the triune God...
anonymouswho
Posts: 431
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7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, HIM DECLARE I UNTO YOU.
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is WORSHIPPED with MEN'S HANDS, as though he NEEDED ANY THING, seeing he giveth to ALL life, and breath, and ALL things" Acts 17:23

Thank you all and God bless you.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 8:45:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." : :

Jesus worshiped his Father, too.

John 14:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 8:53:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God. : :

Who is the Lord?

Isaiah 43:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 44:
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If God is the Lord, then why do you call Jesus our Lord?
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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7/27/2015 8:59:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
All erstwhile christians and they all worship different gods.
Ya gotta love that.
I do.
Don't bring in Quetzalcoatl.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:06:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:53:45 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God. : :

Who is the Lord?

Isaiah 43:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 44:
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If God is the Lord, then why do you call Jesus our Lord?

Because, as scripture says:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
ASV(i) 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Yes, there are many gods and lords, some true, some false, but there is only one True God, Jehovah.

The truth has been deliberately obscured by most translators by changing the Great and Holy God, Jehovah, for LORD, in order to allow for the false belief in the trinity of Gods to be upheld.

The point being that only one is recognised by Christ and the Apostles as the One True God, and that is jehovah, the upper case "G" being used to declare Jehovah's superiority.

Christ is treated by the Apostles as our only Lord, because, as Jehovah's second in command, he is the one who has been conducting all dealings with mankind since Adam's fall, on his father's behalf.

He it is to whom the judging of mankind has been delegated and all dealings with mankind until we are finally returned to Adam's original state and jehovah can once again deal with us directly, a state of affairs which is described in the last 3 chapters of Revelation.

That means that, whilst there are many lords, some of which are even human, there is only one who currently has the right to be seen as Lord over us, and that is the Christ.

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, and once you understand it, it explains a lot.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:10:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:59:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
All erstwhile christians and they all worship different gods.
Ya gotta love that.
I do.
Don't bring in Quetzalcoatl. : :

Mexicans love that god.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:11:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:59:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
All erstwhile christians and they all worship different gods.
Ya gotta love that.
I do.
Don't bring in Quetzalcoatl.

Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say, though if they did but realise it, in truth the vast majority are, indirectly, giving their worship to Satan.

Only those who truly strive to follow Christ's teachings and actions, can rightly claim to be Christian, and worship the same God that he and the Apostles worship.

Of course you love it Bulproof, you love the thought of people suffering as you do, and know you will. Just like your master, Satan.

Interesting that you should name Quetzalcoatl, who is often depicted as a serpent, a broad hint as to his true origin if ever there was one, lol.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:11:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:10:39 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:59:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
All erstwhile christians and they all worship different gods.
Ya gotta love that.
I do.
Don't bring in Quetzalcoatl. : :

Mexicans love that god.

Mayan's anyway, did they live in what is now Mexico?
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:12:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:06:50 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:53:45 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God. : :

Who is the Lord?

Isaiah 43:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 44:
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If God is the Lord, then why do you call Jesus our Lord?

Because, as scripture says:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
ASV(i) 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Yes, there are many gods and lords, some true, some false, but there is only one True God, Jehovah.

The truth has been deliberately obscured by most translators by changing the Great and Holy God, Jehovah, for LORD, in order to allow for the false belief in the trinity of Gods to be upheld.

The point being that only one is recognised by Christ and the Apostles as the One True God, and that is jehovah, the upper case "G" being used to declare Jehovah's superiority.

Christ is treated by the Apostles as our only Lord, because, as Jehovah's second in command, he is the one who has been conducting all dealings with mankind since Adam's fall, on his father's behalf.

He it is to whom the judging of mankind has been delegated and all dealings with mankind until we are finally returned to Adam's original state and jehovah can once again deal with us directly, a state of affairs which is described in the last 3 chapters of Revelation.

That means that, whilst there are many lords, some of which are even human, there is only one who currently has the right to be seen as Lord over us, and that is the Christ.

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, and once you understand it, it explains a lot. : :

Why isn't the name of Jesus as our Lord mentioned in the Old Testament prophecies?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:18:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:45:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." : :

Jesus worshiped his Father, too.

John 14:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Absolutely, John 20:17
ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

As did the Apostles:

1 Peter 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

They did not give Christ anything other than the level of worship which was due to him for his obedience to his father.

Worship in scripture actually translates to respect or honour, it's more archaic meaning, and has nothing to do with rituals etc.

Any who wish to truly worship Jehovah do so simply by the way they live, as did Christ and the Apostles.

Christ never held prayer meetings or followed rituals as slavishly as the Pharisees and all who are like them did, and do. He only did that which brought honour to his father who claim to be Christian, as we all must strive to do.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:18:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:11:49 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:10:39 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:59:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
All erstwhile christians and they all worship different gods.
Ya gotta love that.
I do.
Don't bring in Quetzalcoatl. : :

Mexicans love that god.

Mayan's anyway, did they live in what is now Mexico? : :

Yes they did and that's why many Mexicans love Quetzalcoatl. Many Mexicans love the Christian Lord, too.

I worship the one God who calls himself Lord. Jesus was never mentioned as being the Lord in the Old Testament prophecies.

Isaiah 41:
10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.
16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the Lord, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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7/27/2015 9:21:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:11:14 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say
Nah dummy it is all truth. It's the simpletons who don't get it.
Don't cry, you're not alone. haha.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:22:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:18:18 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:45:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." : :

Jesus worshiped his Father, too.

John 14:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Absolutely, John 20:17
ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

As did the Apostles:

1 Peter 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

They did not give Christ anything other than the level of worship which was due to him for his obedience to his father.

Worship in scripture actually translates to respect or honour, it's more archaic meaning, and has nothing to do with rituals etc.

Any who wish to truly worship Jehovah do so simply by the way they live, as did Christ and the Apostles.

Christ never held prayer meetings or followed rituals as slavishly as the Pharisees and all who are like them did, and do. He only did that which brought honour to his father who claim to be Christian, as we all must strive to do. : :

I notice that you avoid the Old Testament prophecies. Why is that?
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:23:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:21:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:11:14 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say
Nah dummy it is all truth. It's the simpletons who don't get it.
Don't cry, you're not alone. haha. : :

What is your truth?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:28:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:12:17 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:06:50 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:53:45 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God. : :

Who is the Lord?

Isaiah 43:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 44:
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If God is the Lord, then why do you call Jesus our Lord?

Because, as scripture says:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
ASV(i) 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Yes, there are many gods and lords, some true, some false, but there is only one True God, Jehovah.

The truth has been deliberately obscured by most translators by changing the Great and Holy God, Jehovah, for LORD, in order to allow for the false belief in the trinity of Gods to be upheld.

The point being that only one is recognised by Christ and the Apostles as the One True God, and that is jehovah, the upper case "G" being used to declare Jehovah's superiority.

Christ is treated by the Apostles as our only Lord, because, as Jehovah's second in command, he is the one who has been conducting all dealings with mankind since Adam's fall, on his father's behalf.

He it is to whom the judging of mankind has been delegated and all dealings with mankind until we are finally returned to Adam's original state and jehovah can once again deal with us directly, a state of affairs which is described in the last 3 chapters of Revelation.

That means that, whilst there are many lords, some of which are even human, there is only one who currently has the right to be seen as Lord over us, and that is the Christ.

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, and once you understand it, it explains a lot. : :

Why isn't the name of Jesus as our Lord mentioned in the Old Testament prophecies?

Because Jesus didn't exist then, though God's son who occupied his body later did.

However God's son, is mentioned indirectly many times in scripture, most noticeably in prophecies such as Isaiah 9:6
ASV(i) 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There were very few direct references to the Messiah, who God's son would come to earth to occupy the body of Jesus, and even his name, in his pre-human life, is only hinted at.

This might sound surprising, but as his father's spokesmen, also later called The Word for that reason, his natural modesty precluded his making a big thing about it, as shown by the angel, quite possibly God's son himself, replying when asked his name:

Isaiah 9:6
ASV(i) 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Only Jehovah's name truly matters, since that is the name by which we gain salvation:

Joel 2:32 ASV 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.

Something to which Paul later alluded at Romans 10:13-15
ASV(i) 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

Paul started that passage by quoting from Joel 2:32.
bulproof
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7/27/2015 9:45:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:28:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Because Jesus didn't exist then, though God's son who occupied his body later did.
No! The prophecies that always come true claimed his name to be Immanuel just as Matthew wrote in his bible.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:47:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:28:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:12:17 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:06:50 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:53:45 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:29:56 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship the God that Jesus and the Apostles worship, Jehovah, "The God and father of our lord Jesus Christ".

The one true God. : :

Who is the Lord?

Isaiah 43:
3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 44:
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If God is the Lord, then why do you call Jesus our Lord?

Because, as scripture says:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
ASV(i) 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Yes, there are many gods and lords, some true, some false, but there is only one True God, Jehovah.

The truth has been deliberately obscured by most translators by changing the Great and Holy God, Jehovah, for LORD, in order to allow for the false belief in the trinity of Gods to be upheld.

The point being that only one is recognised by Christ and the Apostles as the One True God, and that is jehovah, the upper case "G" being used to declare Jehovah's superiority.

Christ is treated by the Apostles as our only Lord, because, as Jehovah's second in command, he is the one who has been conducting all dealings with mankind since Adam's fall, on his father's behalf.

He it is to whom the judging of mankind has been delegated and all dealings with mankind until we are finally returned to Adam's original state and jehovah can once again deal with us directly, a state of affairs which is described in the last 3 chapters of Revelation.

That means that, whilst there are many lords, some of which are even human, there is only one who currently has the right to be seen as Lord over us, and that is the Christ.

It isn't as complicated as it sounds, and once you understand it, it explains a lot. : :

Why isn't the name of Jesus as our Lord mentioned in the Old Testament prophecies?

Because Jesus didn't exist then, though God's son who occupied his body later did.

However God's son, is mentioned indirectly many times in scripture, most noticeably in prophecies such as Isaiah 9:6
ASV(i) 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There were very few direct references to the Messiah, who God's son would come to earth to occupy the body of Jesus, and even his name, in his pre-human life, is only hinted at.

This might sound surprising, but as his father's spokesmen, also later called The Word for that reason, his natural modesty precluded his making a big thing about it, as shown by the angel, quite possibly God's son himself, replying when asked his name:

Isaiah 9:6
ASV(i) 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Only Jehovah's name truly matters, since that is the name by which we gain salvation:

Joel 2:32 ASV 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.

Something to which Paul later alluded at Romans 10:13-15
ASV(i) 13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

Paul started that passage by quoting from Joel 2:32. : :

Where does it say that Paul was quoting from Joel 2:32?

Most Christians go to the one or two prophecies they are familiar with. This is what the Mormons and JW's are good at. They never use the other prophecies that show God is the only Lord and Savior.

Isaiah 40:
28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Isaiah 45:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it.

Jesus didn't have a New Testament to go to when he was preaching the gospel of God.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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7/27/2015 9:50:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:23:51 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:21:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:11:14 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say
Nah dummy it is all truth. It's the simpletons who don't get it.
Don't cry, you're not alone. haha. : :

What is your truth?

What is truth?
Is it the words written by ignorant bronze age goatherds?
Or is it all of the knowledge that mankind has discovered ans accumulated since those poor ignorant goatherds wrote their stories?
Me? I go with knowledge and not folk tales from the bronze age.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:52:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:50:17 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:23:51 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:21:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:11:14 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Unfortunately there is some truth in what you say
Nah dummy it is all truth. It's the simpletons who don't get it.
Don't cry, you're not alone. haha. : :

What is your truth?

What is truth?
Is it the words written by ignorant bronze age goatherds?
Or is it all of the knowledge that mankind has discovered ans accumulated since those poor ignorant goatherds wrote their stories?
Me? I go with knowledge and not folk tales from the bronze age. : :

I like questions that can't be answered by men.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/27/2015 9:52:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:22:46 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:18:18 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:45:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." : :

Jesus worshiped his Father, too.

John 14:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Absolutely, John 20:17
ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

As did the Apostles:

1 Peter 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

They did not give Christ anything other than the level of worship which was due to him for his obedience to his father.

Worship in scripture actually translates to respect or honour, it's more archaic meaning, and has nothing to do with rituals etc.

Any who wish to truly worship Jehovah do so simply by the way they live, as did Christ and the Apostles.

Christ never held prayer meetings or followed rituals as slavishly as the Pharisees and all who are like them did, and do. He only did that which brought honour to his father who claim to be Christian, as we all must strive to do. : :

I notice that you avoid the Old Testament prophecies. Why is that?

No I do not avoid them. I frequently refer to them because the Hebrew Scriptures were the basis of all the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

In truth you cannot honestly separate the two parts into "New Testament" and "Old Testament", because the testament is the same in both, and the Christian Greek scriptures do little more than document the prophecies that were fulfilled in the Christ, and expand on a number of the prophecies in in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Revelation, for example, is based on, and simply expands our knowledge of the prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, and possibly one or two others I can't remember off hand.

I am happy to stick to the hebrew Scriptures if asked to because I agree with Paul who wrote about just those scriptures:

Everything I teach can be shown, or the relevant prophecy pointed to from the Hebrew Scriptures alone, as Paul indicates there.

The Christian Greek scriptures simply make it easier.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:56:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:52:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:22:46 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:18:18 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:45:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 5:59:23 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/27/2015 4:11:54 AM, anonymouswho wrote:
At 7/27/2015 12:26:02 AM, talmud wrote:
Who do you worship?

I worship God, our Father. I bow in reverence to His Son, Yeshua the Messiah and our Lord.

"But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

And to JJ50, God does not need to be worshiped. We worship and serve Him because He Loves us and gives us everything we need.

How do you explain John 4:

21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." : :

Jesus worshiped his Father, too.

John 14:
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Absolutely, John 20:17
ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

As did the Apostles:

1 Peter 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
ASV(i) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

They did not give Christ anything other than the level of worship which was due to him for his obedience to his father.

Worship in scripture actually translates to respect or honour, it's more archaic meaning, and has nothing to do with rituals etc.

Any who wish to truly worship Jehovah do so simply by the way they live, as did Christ and the Apostles.

Christ never held prayer meetings or followed rituals as slavishly as the Pharisees and all who are like them did, and do. He only did that which brought honour to his father who claim to be Christian, as we all must strive to do. : :

I notice that you avoid the Old Testament prophecies. Why is that?

No I do not avoid them. I frequently refer to them because the Hebrew Scriptures were the basis of all the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

In truth you cannot honestly separate the two parts into "New Testament" and "Old Testament", because the testament is the same in both, and the Christian Greek scriptures do little more than document the prophecies that were fulfilled in the Christ, and expand on a number of the prophecies in in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Revelation, for example, is based on, and simply expands our knowledge of the prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, and possibly one or two others I can't remember off hand.

I am happy to stick to the hebrew Scriptures if asked to because I agree with Paul who wrote about just those scriptures:

Everything I teach can be shown, or the relevant prophecy pointed to from the Hebrew Scriptures alone, as Paul indicates there.

The Christian Greek scriptures simply make it easier. : :

This doesn't answer my question about why you call Jesus our Lord?

I don't believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior because the Old Testament prophecies do not tell me that.