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The Fall of man?

Mike.com
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7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 10:03:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else! : :

The New Testament was approved by the Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church. I don't trust those heathens.

The Old Testament prophecies are more reassuring then people dressed up to look like holy men.

Read the following prophecy and be assured that God has everything under control. We don't need a human sacrifice like the pagans believe in.

Isaiah 45:
20: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save.
21: Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
22: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23: By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: `To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'
24: "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him.
25: In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory."
PureX
Posts: 1,533
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7/27/2015 10:27:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 10:03:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

The story does not have to be literally true, for it to be ideologically true. In the story of Eden, humanity presumed unto itself equality with God (the knowledge of good and evil), and as a result, we now pass judgment on all we encounter as if we had created it for ourselves (as if we were God). But in truth, we are not the Creator, and we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil. We only judge according to our own selfish needs and desires. And so we end up toiling our lives away forever trying to "correct creation" so as to make it serve us, as we assume it should. (Thus, the loss of "Eden".)

Mankind's original sin, according to the story of Eden, is hubris. It is presuming ourselves to be demi-gods; the sole rulers, reason, and purpose of all creation. And this sin is certainly 'true', even if the story is mythical, as evidenced by our thought and behavior from the beginning.

There is plenty of truth and wisdom to be found in those various religious stories and texts, as they were intended to collect human wisdom and pass it down through the generations. We would be fools to ignore it. But those texts were written by men, for men, and they reflect the limited understanding of men. They were not written by gods, and they are not to be presumed inerrant, nor factual, as if they were.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 11:34:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 10:27:32 AM, PureX wrote:
At 7/27/2015 10:03:34 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

The story does not have to be literally true, for it to be ideologically true. In the story of Eden, humanity presumed unto itself equality with God (the knowledge of good and evil), and as a result, we now pass judgment on all we encounter as if we had created it for ourselves (as if we were God). But in truth, we are not the Creator, and we do not possess the knowledge of good and evil. We only judge according to our own selfish needs and desires. And so we end up toiling our lives away forever trying to "correct creation" so as to make it serve us, as we assume it should. (Thus, the loss of "Eden".)

Mankind's original sin, according to the story of Eden, is hubris. It is presuming ourselves to be demi-gods; the sole rulers, reason, and purpose of all creation. And this sin is certainly 'true', even if the story is mythical, as evidenced by our thought and behavior from the beginning.

There is plenty of truth and wisdom to be found in those various religious stories and texts, as they were intended to collect human wisdom and pass it down through the generations. We would be fools to ignore it. But those texts were written by men, for men, and they reflect the limited understanding of men. They were not written by gods, and they are not to be presumed inerrant, nor factual, as if they were. : :

Humans don't have wisdom. Wisdom is revealed to them by God.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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7/27/2015 2:16:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

Mike.com Good to meet you..
I reply: You are mixed up!

The Catholic Church does NOT reject Genesis... They teach it is God' words as all the scriptures are!
>>GOD CANNOT LIE<<!

ADam was formed PERFECT!!!! He was a PERFECT MAN... SINLESS Un-corrupted!!!

Adam did not love!!! His sin brought corruption into God' perfect creation!!! All of creation was corrupted because of Adam.. All are born corrupted because they are formed from corrupted earth! (From dust you were formed & from dust you will return!)

The earth was formed perfect and Holy because the Holy Spirit made it holy. The Holy Spirit hovered over the water the earth came out of these holy waters thus it was HOLY!!! The earth was holy because the water was holy, making all else holy!!

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


Mike.com Jesus the second Adam.. The only other man that was formed PERFECT.. Sinless! ALL...
Mike.com all are formed Adams Children.. Corrupted! The waters of baptism RE-FORM Adams children into those of God! Born first Adams, re-Born God' child!

Baptism ADDS people to God' only son, the Body of Jesus! ALL..
Mike.com all peoples "IN Jesus' Body" are God' children!

LOOK..Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


DID YOU SEE IT??? (above verse)
3000 were ADDED to Jesus' body the first day of Pentecost: By Baptism!

The HOLY WATERS OF BAPTISM.. Makes all coming out of them HOLY!
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 2:16:29 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

Mike.com Good to meet you..
I reply: You are mixed up!

The Catholic Church does NOT reject Genesis... They teach it is God' words as all the scriptures are!
>>GOD CANNOT LIE<<!

ADam was formed PERFECT!!!! He was a PERFECT MAN... SINLESS Un-corrupted!!!

Adam did not love!!! His sin brought corruption into God' perfect creation!!! All of creation was corrupted because of Adam.. All are born corrupted because they are formed from corrupted earth! (From dust you were formed & from dust you will return!)

The earth was formed perfect and Holy because the Holy Spirit made it holy. The Holy Spirit hovered over the water the earth came out of these holy waters thus it was HOLY!!! The earth was holy because the water was holy, making all else holy!!

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


Mike.com Jesus the second Adam.. The only other man that was formed PERFECT.. Sinless! ALL...
Mike.com all are formed Adams Children.. Corrupted! The waters of baptism RE-FORM Adams children into those of God! Born first Adams, re-Born God' child!

Baptism ADDS people to God' only son, the Body of Jesus! ALL..
Mike.com all peoples "IN Jesus' Body" are God' children!

LOOK..Acts 2:40
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


DID YOU SEE IT??? (above verse)
3000 were ADDED to Jesus' body the first day of Pentecost: By Baptism!

The HOLY WATERS OF BAPTISM.. Makes all coming out of them HOLY! : :

Do you know the answer to this question: "The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?"

Matthew 21
23: And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, "By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?"
24: Jesus answered them, "I also will ask you a question; and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25: The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?" And they argued with one another, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will say to us, `Why then did you not believe him?'
26: But if we say, `From men,' we are afraid of the multitude; for all hold that John was a prophet."
27: So they answered Jesus, "We do not know." And he said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/27/2015 6:46:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

I believe much the same as you, my brother. We're what some call Liberal Christians, or Progressive Christians. Believing in God, and in the Divinely-Inspired Teaching of Yeshua of Nazareth. But NOT that Genesis is a scientific account of Cosmology or Biology. But we DO believe in God Almighty. And that while he sure inspired the Bible writers, it was written by men. A long time ago. For an audience very different that us. Oh yes! there is Great Power in the Holy Bible. It shows us some Grand Truths But its not written by God and we need to know that its not a history or science text. Or a literal one, Its actually Bigger than that. But we have to know that they used Imagery and Visions and Allegory to point to those Eternal Truths.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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7/27/2015 7:20:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 6:46:36 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

I believe much the same as you, my brother. We're what some call Liberal Christians, or Progressive Christians.

Actually, the correct term is "Hypocrite". Just a friendly fyi. (:

Believing in God, and in the Divinely-Inspired Teaching of Yeshua of Nazareth. But NOT that Genesis is a scientific account of Cosmology or Biology. But we DO believe in God Almighty.

Yes, you don't believe God's word. Curious behavior. It would be interesting to find out how the hypocrite's mind works in that regard.

And that while he sure inspired the Bible writers, it was written by men. A long time ago. For an audience very different that us. Oh yes! there is Great Power in the Holy Bible. It shows us some Grand Truths But its not written by God and we need to know that its not a history or science text. Or a literal one, Its actually Bigger than that. But we have to know that they used Imagery and Visions and Allegory to point to those Eternal Truths.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 2:16:29 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:

The HOLY WATERS OF BAPTISM.. Makes all coming out of them HOLY! : :

Do you know the answer to this question: "The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?"

Matthew 21
23: And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, "By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?"
24: Jesus answered them, "I also will ask you a question; and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25: The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?" And they argued with one another, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will say to us, `Why then did you not believe him?'
26: But if we say, `From men,' we are afraid of the multitude; for all hold that John was a prophet."
27: So they answered Jesus, "We do not know." And he said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

talmud Good to meet you....
I reply: John' baptism was for the forgiveness of sins!
Only God can forgive sins.. John' baptism saved men by removing sins.. So he did not work for Satan but for God!!

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

talmud John' baptism forgive sins; IT DID NOT immerse anyone into the Body of Jesus! THINK...

God has ONLY ONE son!
God has JUST one son!
God does NOT have three, seven, fifteen sons!!! ONE and only one son!! God' ONE and ONLY son is named Jesus!!! TO BE..
talmud to be called "Child of God" you MUST...
talmud must be IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus!

John' Baptism removed sins it did NOT..!
talmud did not add anyone to Jesus' body!

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/27/2015 8:35:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 7:20:24 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:46:36 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

I believe much the same as you, my brother. We're what some call Liberal Christians, or Progressive Christians.

Actually, the correct term is "Hypocrite". Just a friendly fyi. (:

Believing in God, and in the Divinely-Inspired Teaching of Yeshua of Nazareth. But NOT that Genesis is a scientific account of Cosmology or Biology. But we DO believe in God Almighty.

Yes, you don't believe God's word. Curious behavior. It would be interesting to find out how the hypocrite's mind works in that regard.

And that while he sure inspired the Bible writers, it was written by men. A long time ago. For an audience very different that us. Oh yes! there is Great Power in the Holy Bible. It shows us some Grand Truths But its not written by God and we need to know that its not a history or science text. Or a literal one, Its actually Bigger than that. But we have to know that they used Imagery and Visions and Allegory to point to those Eternal Truths.

again you insult and miss my point. I have said many times what I think of the Bible. How though I love it and believe it contains some Universal Truths of God, it is written by men. Who were--some of them--inspired by God. But the Bible was not written by God. Thus I am not refuting God's word. God's Word was when he Saved me. Gave me that Saving Experience. Did I refute that? Nope. Because, here I stand.
I am guessing you used to be a believer. And loved God. But He didn't give you what you asked for all the time, with your Intercessory Prayer. Like the Cosmic Vending Machine you wanted Him to be. Hence your hostility? Have I attacked you, even obliquely even once? You called my childish. I wonder which one of us a person you has read all of our past writings to each other would call childish and hostile and closed-minded?
Take a guess.
Peace, my brother.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 9:35:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 2:16:29 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:

The HOLY WATERS OF BAPTISM.. Makes all coming out of them HOLY! : :

Do you know the answer to this question: "The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?"

Matthew 21
23: And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, "By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?"
24: Jesus answered them, "I also will ask you a question; and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25: The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven or from men?" And they argued with one another, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will say to us, `Why then did you not believe him?'
26: But if we say, `From men,' we are afraid of the multitude; for all hold that John was a prophet."
27: So they answered Jesus, "We do not know." And he said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.


talmud Good to meet you....
I reply: John' baptism was for the forgiveness of sins!
Only God can forgive sins.. John' baptism saved men by removing sins.. So he did not work for Satan but for God!!

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

talmud John' baptism forgive sins; IT DID NOT immerse anyone into the Body of Jesus! THINK...

God has ONLY ONE son!
God has JUST one son!
God does NOT have three, seven, fifteen sons!!! ONE and only one son!! God' ONE and ONLY son is named Jesus!!! TO BE..
talmud to be called "Child of God" you MUST...
talmud must be IMMERSED into the Holy Body of Jesus!

John' Baptism removed sins it did NOT..!
talmud did not add anyone to Jesus' body!

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother! : :

If you understood what Son of God meant, you would know me as a brother in the Lord.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,296
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7/27/2015 9:56:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee.

Actually, people like Blessed Cardinal Newman, accepted that evolution was not contrary to the faith. In fact you could go all the way back to 410 AD with St. Augustine, who speculated that God planted "rational seeds" in nature which eventually blossomed into plants and animals. Thus evolution would be no more than an acorn growing into an oak like it is intended to do. This is non-Darwinian, but rather evolution merely being creation unfolding over time as God intended.

Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis.

Your opinion of course.

And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

Thankfully never.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/27/2015 10:52:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Fall of man is Gentile Pauline Christian heresy that blasphemes God and has no place in the worship of God and the Messiah. God, the Elohim, and not Judah's artifice god, "YHWH", made human beings in the image of God, made them male and female, and God found them "Good, very good indeed." So when Paul and Pauline Christians claim man was born in sin they are in effect God was a sinner if we are made in the image of God. Is God a sinner? I think not.

And btw, God Most High never had the title of "Lord" as EL was top God Most High and headed the ELohim, the Hebrew name for the pantheon of gods and goddesses of the Divine Assembly. Just like a king isn't called a "Lord" neither is God Most High called a Lord. "Lords" are vassals of kings and Yahweh was a vassal god of EL Elyon. Read Deuteronomy in Hebrew to see that it is EL who commands Yahweh to be the Israelite tribal god. Pauline Christians, taught to follow Paul instead of Jesus, worship the wrong god, Judah's artiice, their "YHWH" thing.

I teach Celestial Torah Christianity, to get Christianity and Christians back on spiritual track honoring God Most High and the Messiah as spiritual leaders of humanity. Yahweh worship bring war because Yahweh was a war god, a "Lord of Hosts".
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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7/27/2015 11:12:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother! : :

If you understood what Son of God meant, you would know me as a brother in the Lord.

talmud Jesus is "The Son Of God"!
Jesus has a MOTHER and a Father!
The title "Father" is never received until a MOTHER gives birth! Mary is MOTHER of Jesus.. I am IN Jesus so Mary is MY Mother!

Jesus HONORS Mary.. he MUST honor Mary his mother.. It is a COMMANDMENT!
IF..
talmud If Jesus did not honor Mary his mother he would be sinning, he would not be perfect he would not be God!

For you to be known as "a brother IN the Lord" >>> IN THE Lord, you first must be: IMMERSED "INTO HIM!!!"

To be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus you must repent and washed by the waters of Baptism... To be "ADDED to the Body of Jesus!" THEN...
talmud then you would be "IN the Lord"!

Brothers of Jesus Honor Mary our Mother. We MUST Honor Mary our Mother it is a Command!!
Brothers of Jesus Honor God our father, all IN Jesus are part of God' One Holy Catholic Apostolic Family!
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/27/2015 11:23:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

Mike, the Israelite thought that created Genesis, didn't create it to support Christianity. In fact, when Genesis was written, even Judaic orthodoxy itself was emerging -- so Israelites didn't think entirely as orthodox Jews did later -- or as they do now, because not all of the Pentateuch was written. But regardless, by the time Christianity came along as a body of thought, Judaic orthodoxy rejected it -- not simply because Jewish clergy felt that Jesus wasn't the messiah, but because in Judaic lore, while the moshiach is a reconciler, he doesn't actually do what Jesus is promised to do in the New Testament.

So the Christian interpretation of Genesis is in fact a reinterpretation of the Judaic meaning, which in turn may draw from pre-Judaic ideas to be found elsewhere in Mesopotamia.

But you've asked the question, can Christianity exist without Genesis and Original Sin?

I think it can. In fact, I think it can flourish. But it can't survive as once it did -- as a paternalistic force of political nationalism claiming moral authority over empires and kingdoms, and dominating the civic identity of every citizen.

But in its current forms, it'll never do that again anyway. That window closed centuries ago in every reasonable democracy, and hardline Christian traditionalists are still buzzing and butting their heads against it in denial, like flies in summer.

Meanwhile, the very people who supported Christianity strongest over the centuries -- the educated middle classes -- are fleeing the faith in droves. So if Christianity doesn't want to get reduced to an atavistic rump, or become a faith of the developing world (which race it has already lost anyway to Islam in Africa and Central Asia, and Buddhism in Southeast Asia), it needs to review its canon and reinvent itself.

That's what I think, anyway.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/27/2015 11:39:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 11:12:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother! : :

If you understood what Son of God meant, you would know me as a brother in the Lord.

talmud Jesus is "The Son Of God"!
Jesus has a MOTHER and a Father!
The title "Father" is never received until a MOTHER gives birth! Mary is MOTHER of Jesus.. I am IN Jesus so Mary is MY Mother!

Jesus HONORS Mary.. he MUST honor Mary his mother.. It is a COMMANDMENT!
IF..
talmud If Jesus did not honor Mary his mother he would be sinning, he would not be perfect he would not be God!

For you to be known as "a brother IN the Lord" >>> IN THE Lord, you first must be: IMMERSED "INTO HIM!!!"

To be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus you must repent and washed by the waters of Baptism... To be "ADDED to the Body of Jesus!" THEN...
talmud then you would be "IN the Lord"!

Brothers of Jesus Honor Mary our Mother. We MUST Honor Mary our Mother it is a Command!!
Brothers of Jesus Honor God our father, all IN Jesus are part of God' One Holy Catholic Apostolic Family! : :

You cannot call me a brother in the Lord because you do not understand what the Son of God means.

Sometime in the future, we will all be brothers in the Lord under a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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7/28/2015 10:27:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 11:39:32 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 11:12:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother! : :

If you understood what Son of God meant, you would know me as a brother in the Lord.

talmud Jesus is "The Son Of God"!
Jesus has a MOTHER and a Father!
The title "Father" is never received until a MOTHER gives birth! Mary is MOTHER of Jesus.. I am IN Jesus so Mary is MY Mother!

Jesus HONORS Mary.. he MUST honor Mary his mother.. It is a COMMANDMENT!
IF..
talmud If Jesus did not honor Mary his mother he would be sinning, he would not be perfect he would not be God!

For you to be known as "a brother IN the Lord" >>> IN THE Lord, you first must be: IMMERSED "INTO HIM!!!"

To be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus you must repent and washed by the waters of Baptism... To be "ADDED to the Body of Jesus!" THEN...
talmud then you would be "IN the Lord"!

Brothers of Jesus Honor Mary our Mother. We MUST Honor Mary our Mother it is a Command!!
Brothers of Jesus Honor God our father, all IN Jesus are part of God' One Holy Catholic Apostolic Family! : :

You cannot call me a brother in the Lord because you do not understand what the Son of God means.

Sometime in the future, we will all be brothers in the Lord under a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You said.. Sometime in the future, we will all be brothers in the Lord under a new covenant.

talmud I also reply with scriptures...Jesus made a NEW Covenant at the "Last Supper" (a Passover Meal)
All who eat the "New Unblemished Lamb Of God" are Brothers!!!
All who eat.. Remain IN JESUS & Jesus remains in them! (below)

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,104
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7/28/2015 10:40:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

So you want to make your own version of god up, how is that any better than the problems you stated above...??
Mike.com
Posts: 91
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7/29/2015 12:15:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 10:40:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

So you want to make your own version of god up, how is that any better than the problems you stated above...??

Its far better, because we can use our OWN logic and experience of life to know the fall was dreamt up by simple minded men and promulgated by more simple minds over the last 2000 years.

No fair minded person thinking it through can ever believe that God would punish ANYONE for the wrong doing of anyone else. No court or legal opinion does that and so neither did God.

Secondly, that doctrine makes for people to feel bad about themselves or makes them sick or unworthy and so guess who's got the cure? Yep, we have, The Christian Church and Paul had the remedy for that sickness and that was to have to believe Jesus died for that very purpose and you are forced to believe it or the alternative is everlasting punishment. So they made a man into God and so everything he said had to be believed and had to be obeyed. That;s why divorce was not allowed even though a women could suffer hell on earth by an abusive and drunken husband and had to stick it out as she could remarry anyone else even if they were in love. Its all pathetic nonsense and so that' why my version is better than the OT and NT put together,

MY version of faith is to worship God in our own way and use our OWN brain to tell us what is sensible and what isn't. No circumcision for me or animal sacrifice. No stoning gays and unmarried people who have sex to death or forcing people to believe doctrines like Baptism and the Eucharist and the Trinity and a whole host of stuff that has caused millions to die in the name or religion. MY version is a darn site better because this is all that is needed to please God..

Live an honest life, try to do good to each other and to help others when we are able. You don't need ANY faith or religion to do that and there is no devil or satan controlling anyone. We all have free will to do good or do evil and IF there is a heaven and hell, then God knows who deserves which one and not some need to 'believe' someone died for you, when they clearly didn't. As God does not need ANY scapegoat to know what truth is and kindness is and what doing good to each other can achieve.

Its a very simple doctrine and no religious text of any kind is needed to know the very basics of human compassion and understanding. Religion may not poison everything as Christopher Hitchens wrote, but it has much to answer for and much blood on its hands and so could never be what God, intended for his creation.
Mike.com
Posts: 91
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7/29/2015 12:38:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The thing is that until the bible was available to read in eg English 400 odd years ago, the Catholic Church could spout all the nonsense in latin it wanted as most were peasants and illiterate and so the Church yielded great political power as well as the keys to heaven and hell and didn't they use them. Thomas More tortured people because they wanted to rewrite the bible in English. I think he even burned people at the Stake and most people think he was the bees knees of Christianity. It was all about Power and control and nothing else.

So everyone now can read the Gospels and the OT for themselves and see how much is nonsense and is mostly myth and untruths which should annoy every thinking man and woman. Its why Islam and Christianity is only growing in areas of poverty and illiteracy, like it did in the first 1500 years. Its not that the middle class are better people, they are not, its mainly because they can read stuff and think for themselves now and why its all in decline when that happens everywhere when people get better educated. The Catholic Church is in the same decline in the bastion of Catholicism ie Ireland. They have just voted to make gay marriage legal there and I laughed my socks off when it was announced. I wonder what the Pope thought?
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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7/29/2015 12:38:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Where did HE fall to?
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/29/2015 12:49:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 10:27:42 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 11:39:32 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 11:12:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:35:48 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:31:34 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/27/2015 3:32:40 PM, talmud wrote:

The Baptism of the Bride and Groom removes sins and sends the GIFT of the Holy Spirit.. It "ADDS" people to Jesus' holy Body!! ALL...
talmud all ADDED to Jesus' body call God father!
all ADDED to Jesus' holy body call Jesus brother.. They ALL...
talmud They ALL... honor Mary as mother! : :

If you understood what Son of God meant, you would know me as a brother in the Lord.

talmud Jesus is "The Son Of God"!
Jesus has a MOTHER and a Father!
The title "Father" is never received until a MOTHER gives birth! Mary is MOTHER of Jesus.. I am IN Jesus so Mary is MY Mother!

Jesus HONORS Mary.. he MUST honor Mary his mother.. It is a COMMANDMENT!
IF..
talmud If Jesus did not honor Mary his mother he would be sinning, he would not be perfect he would not be God!

For you to be known as "a brother IN the Lord" >>> IN THE Lord, you first must be: IMMERSED "INTO HIM!!!"

To be IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus you must repent and washed by the waters of Baptism... To be "ADDED to the Body of Jesus!" THEN...
talmud then you would be "IN the Lord"!

Brothers of Jesus Honor Mary our Mother. We MUST Honor Mary our Mother it is a Command!!
Brothers of Jesus Honor God our father, all IN Jesus are part of God' One Holy Catholic Apostolic Family! : :

You cannot call me a brother in the Lord because you do not understand what the Son of God means.

Sometime in the future, we will all be brothers in the Lord under a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You said.. Sometime in the future, we will all be brothers in the Lord under a new covenant.

talmud I also reply with scriptures...Jesus made a NEW Covenant at the "Last Supper" (a Passover Meal)
All who eat the "New Unblemished Lamb Of God" are Brothers!!!
All who eat.. Remain IN JESUS & Jesus remains in them! (below)

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
: :

The new covenant has nothing to do with eating flesh and drinking blood. This is a pagan idea that was added to the new testament.
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/29/2015 1:36:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

-----Response-----
Adam actually is a word in Hebrew meaning man. When I had a religious belief, which was when I was young, I never thought of Adam as a person, but as the human race. After this His son Cain finds a wife in the land of "Nod", I believe without looking." That would not make sense if the story is literal in any way. But then isn't Cain an individual person? The word I had always heard was "Parabilistic" to categorize the story. So the idea being Adam represented modern man in general. Cain being representative of the introduction of murder(being murder because we now intellectually understood and had intellectual motives to kill). Of course as I type this my eyes roll back in my head and steam comes out my ears. But if it's in my head, I guess I'll share.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/29/2015 1:41:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 12:15:13 AM, Mike.com wrote:
At 7/28/2015 10:40:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

So you want to make your own version of god up, how is that any better than the problems you stated above...??

Its far better, because we can use our OWN logic and experience of life to know the fall was dreamt up by simple minded men and promulgated by more simple minds over the last 2000 years.

No fair minded person thinking it through can ever believe that God would punish ANYONE for the wrong doing of anyone else. No court or legal opinion does that and so neither did God.

Secondly, that doctrine makes for people to feel bad about themselves or makes them sick or unworthy and so guess who's got the cure? Yep, we have, The Christian Church and Paul had the remedy for that sickness and that was to have to believe Jesus died for that very purpose and you are forced to believe it or the alternative is everlasting punishment. So they made a man into God and so everything he said had to be believed and had to be obeyed. That;s why divorce was not allowed even though a women could suffer hell on earth by an abusive and drunken husband and had to stick it out as she could remarry anyone else even if they were in love. Its all pathetic nonsense and so that' why my version is better than the OT and NT put together,

MY version of faith is to worship God in our own way and use our OWN brain to tell us what is sensible and what isn't. No circumcision for me or animal sacrifice. No stoning gays and unmarried people who have sex to death or forcing people to believe doctrines like Baptism and the Eucharist and the Trinity and a whole host of stuff that has caused millions to die in the name or religion. MY version is a darn site better because this is all that is needed to please God..

Live an honest life, try to do good to each other and to help others when we are able. You don't need ANY faith or religion to do that and there is no devil or satan controlling anyone. We all have free will to do good or do evil and IF there is a heaven and hell, then God knows who deserves which one and not some need to 'believe' someone died for you, when they clearly didn't. As God does not need ANY scapegoat to know what truth is and kindness is and what doing good to each other can achieve.

Its a very simple doctrine and no religious text of any kind is needed to know the very basics of human compassion and understanding. Religion may not poison everything as Christopher Hitchens wrote, but it has much to answer for and much blood on its hands and so could never be what God, intended for his creation.

I am a Born Again Christian and a regular Church-goer, but I have to agree with everything you have said. Except maybe for the "simple minds" part. There have been some very intelligent men and Theologians/Philosophers involved in the early decades of Christianity/Judaism. And there are today as well. Same thing for us Believers, like every strata of society we are comprised of smart and dumb.
I am a liberal Christian and not a Biblical literalist. When I pray I pray to God. Not to Jesus, though I admire and try to follow His teachings. But yes, there are many non-believers ou there whom I think will see heaven. And many Believers and Christians--and certainly Muslims, who will most certainly not. God does not care about how well you know your Bible or Koran or how fancy you can pray. Jesus spoke of this. The hypocrites. I am a believer in Salvation through Good Works, not Faith alone. This is a hotly debated issue among Christians. I was Saved with the Understanding that I would devote my life to doing God's Work. And this I am trying to do. But that's just me and my belief.
Remember that religioon has only been around for a very very small slice of the time which Man has been around. Like a 0.00001% of it, if you go back to our primeval days. (I also am a Christian who believes in Evolution. But a type that is Master-minded by God.

It's all about our intentions. Our malice toward others or lack of it. Our Good Works. And yes, God does want us to love Him. But He does not demand Worship. Oh that won't hurt your chances of going to Heaven--or as I call it the Next Level. But it alone aint going to cut it. I believe in Calvinism, Selective Grace. and Irresistable Grace. If God calls you, you cannot resist His Grace. Even if you were a former non-believer. Like I was. I speak from experience here.
Thank you and God Bless. I like your Theology. Even though you might not call it that, brother.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/29/2015 1:54:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 1:41:10 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/29/2015 12:15:13 AM, Mike.com wrote:
At 7/28/2015 10:40:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

So you want to make your own version of god up, how is that any better than the problems you stated above...??

Its far better, because we can use our OWN logic and experience of life to know the fall was dreamt up by simple minded men and promulgated by more simple minds over the last 2000 years.

No fair minded person thinking it through can ever believe that God would punish ANYONE for the wrong doing of anyone else. No court or legal opinion does that and so neither did God.

Secondly, that doctrine makes for people to feel bad about themselves or makes them sick or unworthy and so guess who's got the cure? Yep, we have, The Christian Church and Paul had the remedy for that sickness and that was to have to believe Jesus died for that very purpose and you are forced to believe it or the alternative is everlasting punishment. So they made a man into God and so everything he said had to be believed and had to be obeyed. That;s why divorce was not allowed even though a women could suffer hell on earth by an abusive and drunken husband and had to stick it out as she could remarry anyone else even if they were in love. Its all pathetic nonsense and so that' why my version is better than the OT and NT put together,

MY version of faith is to worship God in our own way and use our OWN brain to tell us what is sensible and what isn't. No circumcision for me or animal sacrifice. No stoning gays and unmarried people who have sex to death or forcing people to believe doctrines like Baptism and the Eucharist and the Trinity and a whole host of stuff that has caused millions to die in the name or religion. MY version is a darn site better because this is all that is needed to please God..

Live an honest life, try to do good to each other and to help others when we are able. You don't need ANY faith or religion to do that and there is no devil or satan controlling anyone. We all have free will to do good or do evil and IF there is a heaven and hell, then God knows who deserves which one and not some need to 'believe' someone died for you, when they clearly didn't. As God does not need ANY scapegoat to know what truth is and kindness is and what doing good to each other can achieve.

Its a very simple doctrine and no religious text of any kind is needed to know the very basics of human compassion and understanding. Religion may not poison everything as Christopher Hitchens wrote, but it has much to answer for and much blood on its hands and so could never be what God, intended for his creation.

I am a Born Again Christian and a regular Church-goer, but I have to agree with everything you have said. Except maybe for the "simple minds" part. There have been some very intelligent men and Theologians/Philosophers involved in the early decades of Christianity/Judaism. And there are today as well. Same thing for us Believers, like every strata of society we are comprised of smart and dumb.
I am a liberal Christian and not a Biblical literalist. When I pray I pray to God. Not to Jesus, though I admire and try to follow His teachings. But yes, there are many non-believers ou there whom I think will see heaven. And many Believers and Christians--and certainly Muslims, who will most certainly not. God does not care about how well you know your Bible or Koran or how fancy you can pray. Jesus spoke of this. The hypocrites. I am a believer in Salvation through Good Works, not Faith alone. This is a hotly debated issue among Christians. I was Saved with the Understanding that I would devote my life to doing God's Work. And this I am trying to do. But that's just me and my belief.
Remember that religioon has only been around for a very very small slice of the time which Man has been around. Like a 0.00001% of it, if you go back to our primeval days. (I also am a Christian who believes in Evolution. But a type that is Master-minded by God.

It's all about our intentions. Our malice toward others or lack of it. Our Good Works. And yes, God does want us to love Him. But He does not demand Worship. Oh that won't hurt your chances of going to Heaven--or as I call it the Next Level. But it alone aint going to cut it. I believe in Calvinism, Selective Grace. and Irresistable Grace. If God calls you, you cannot resist His Grace. Even if you were a former non-believer. Like I was. I speak from experience here.
Thank you and God Bless. I like your Theology. Even though you might not call it that, brother. ::

No one is going to a place called heaven. God created heaven and earth. This is the invisible and the visible kingdoms. The invisible kingdom is where all God's created beings were born. The earth is the visible flesh and the other visible objects that each created being experiences.

Upon death, we created beings don't go anywhere because we're nothing but the thoughts of God, which is the Heavenly Kingdom.

God planned everything in his thoughts before he spoke them into invisible waves, which is the Heavenly Kingdom. From these waves are formed visible objects including our flesh.

Physicists have the knowledge to understand how waves become particles when observed but they do not know how those waves were created. I know that our God, the Creator of all things, was the one who spoke those waves into being. They take up no space and are not made of solid matter. Time is only experienced as we observe moving objects.
Sooner
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7/29/2015 1:58:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

----Response----

I had always thought of Jesus as gift. Not in the sense of a birthday but the gift of knowledge, teaching man knowledge of love. Think about if everyone practiced his words about love. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. By love I understood it as an act not a feeling. Love was defined as patient, kind, merciful, forgiving, slow to anger, slow to wrath, etc. He gave us "the Golden Rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". All great stuff if people would only listen to such words, but of course, good luck with piercing through greed and selfishness with his words on a mass scale. Even most "Christians" don't listen to anything he said. "I'm a Christian who is not merciful, forgiving, patient, kind, non judgemental, etc." Well what's the point then?

I always saw his voluntary giving of himself as him demonstrating the seriousness of God in showing us himself through the crucifixion. Willing to forgive. Willing to sacrifice of himself and his life. Willingness to try and understand us. I saw Jesus having lived as "saving us" because now he could understnad us through experience. He obtained knowledge as to whst makes human life so conplex and non black and white. True? I don't know. It sounds sublime. But the truth only takes us where it will. Perhaps time will tell.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/29/2015 2:02:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 12:38:17 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The thing is that until the bible was available to read in eg English 400 odd years ago, the Catholic Church could spout all the nonsense in latin it wanted as most were peasants and illiterate and so the Church yielded great political power as well as the keys to heaven and hell and didn't they use them. Thomas More tortured people because they wanted to rewrite the bible in English. I think he even burned people at the Stake and most people think he was the bees knees of Christianity. It was all about Power and control and nothing else.

So everyone now can read the Gospels and the OT for themselves and see how much is nonsense and is mostly myth and untruths which should annoy every thinking man and woman. Its why Islam and Christianity is only growing in areas of poverty and illiteracy, like it did in the first 1500 years. Its not that the middle class are better people, they are not, its mainly because they can read stuff and think for themselves now and why its all in decline when that happens everywhere when people get better educated. The Catholic Church is in the same decline in the bastion of Catholicism ie Ireland. They have just voted to make gay marriage legal there and I laughed my socks off when it was announced. I wonder what the Pope thought?

It's not only the fact that people can read the Bible in English or their Native Tongue why people are fleeing religion. In fact I would put that fact second, to the advance of Science and Knowledge in areas of Evolution; Biology; Cosmology, Archaeology' and Anthropology, that have show people how taking the Bible literally,especially the Old Testament or the Torah, is just damn near close to absurdity.

Also, your stats are a bit off. Not all growing areas and demographics of people being religious are confined to the poor and ignorant, as you say--I think that last word is too harsh. Do you know what the fastest growing Christian denomination in the USA is?
Mormonism. The LDS. Most of these folks are middle class and higher and have at least the average level of education in the country. Liberal or Progressive--or Ecumenical Churches like my own--Unity--are also and have always seen more educated people in their Flocks.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/29/2015 2:10:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 1:54:25 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:41:10 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/29/2015 12:15:13 AM, Mike.com wrote:
At 7/28/2015 10:40:08 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/27/2015 9:54:04 AM, Mike.com wrote:
The central theme or doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus had to die to atone for men's sin, with Paul stating that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God and as Adam was the first that caused the sin and separation from God, Jesus was the first fruits etc. The Catholic Church and indeed most Christian Churches still believe in this original sin by Adam even though the Catholic Church say they now believe in evolution, haven't actually followed that up by Darwin's theory of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from other primates, ie the Chimpanzee. Or that Adam and Eve could not have been a single created pair as in Genesis. And so no fall or separation from God could possibly have happened. Its the only reason believers hold on to this story and so believe the universe is only 6000 years old.

So at what stage will Christians or even Jews and Muslims believe Genesis could not be literal or true and so the fall of man could not have happened as suggested. Which makes the case for a Redeemer Jesus, redundant?

We know this is why the majority of Christians and Churches don't want to really think about this question but they really should. People can still believe in God, as I do, without needing to believe in any biblical text, OT or NT, Quran or anything else and a great pity people were forced into a particular faith at the point of a sword and worse. It needn't have been that way but they needed political control as well and so they said its this way or else!

So you want to make your own version of god up, how is that any better than the problems you stated above...??

Its far better, because we can use our OWN logic and experience of life to know the fall was dreamt up by simple minded men and promulgated by more simple minds over the last 2000 years.

No fair minded person thinking it through can ever believe that God would punish ANYONE for the wrong doing of anyone else. No court or legal opinion does that and so neither did God.

Secondly, that doctrine makes for people to feel bad about themselves or makes them sick or unworthy and so guess who's got the cure? Yep, we have, The Christian Church and Paul had the remedy for that sickness and that was to have to believe Jesus died for that very purpose and you are forced to believe it or the alternative is everlasting punishment. So they made a man into God and so everything he said had to be believed and had to be obeyed. That;s why divorce was not allowed even though a women could suffer hell on earth by an abusive and drunken husband and had to stick it out as shch other and to help others when we are able. You don't need ANY faith or religion to do that and there is no devil or satan controlling anyone. We all have free will to do good or do evil and IF there is a heaven and hell, then God knows who deserves which one and not some need to 'believe' someone died for you, when they clearly didn't. As God does not need ANY scapegoat to know what truth is and kindness is and what doing good to each other can achieve.

Its a very simple doctrine and no religious text of any kind is needed to know the very basics of human compassion and understanding. Religion may not poison everything as Christopher Hitchens wrote, but it has much to answer for and much blood on its hands and so could never be what God, intended for his creation.

I am a Born Again Christian and a regular Church-goer, but I have to agree with everything you have said. Except maybe for the "simple minds" part. There have been some very intelligent men and Theologians/Philosophers involved in the early decades of Christianity/Judaism. And there are today as well. Same thing for us Believers, like every strata of society we are comprised of smart and dumb.
I am a liberal Christian and not a Biblical literalist. When I pray I pray to God. Not to Jesus, though I admire and try to follow His teachings. But yes, there are many non-believers ou there whom I think will see heaven. And many Believers and Christians--and certainly Muslims, who will most certainly not. God does not care about how well you know your Bible or Koran or how fancy you can pray. Jesus spoke of this. The hypocrites. I am a believer in Salvation through Good Works, not Faith alone. This is a hotly debated issue among Christians. I was Saved with the Understanding that I would devote my life to doing God's Work. And this I am trying to do. But that's just me and my belief.
Remember that religioon has only been around for a very very small slice of the time which Man has been around. Like a 0.00001% of it, if you go back to our primeval days. (I also am a Christian who believes in Evolution. But a type that is Master-minded by God.

It's all about our intentions. Our malice toward others or lack of it. Our Good Works. And yes, God does want us to love Him. But He does not demand Worship. Oh that won't hurt your chances of going to Heaven--or as I call it the Next Level. But it alone aint going to cut it. I believe in Calvinism, Selective Grace. and Irresistable Grace. If God calls you, you cannot resist His Grace. Even if you were a former non-believer. Like I was. I speak from experience here.
Thank you and God Bless. I like your Theology. Even though you might not call it that, brother. ::

No one is going to a place called heaven. God created heaven and earth. This is the invisible and the visible kingdoms. The invisible kingdom is where all God's created beings were born. The earth is the visible flesh and the other visible objects that each created being experiences.

Upon death, we created beings don't go anywhere because we're nothing but the thoughts of God, which is the Heavenly Kingdom.

God planned everything in his thoughts before he spoke them into invisible waves, which is the Heavenly Kingdom. From these waves are formed visible objects including our flesh.

Physicists have the knowledge to understand how waves become particles when observed but they do not know how those waves were created. I know that our God, the Creator of all things, was the one who spoke those waves into being. They take up no space and are not made of solid matter. Time is only experienced as we observe moving objects.

Interesting Theology. I have to think about it a bit more before I could say if I agree or not. I dont think I agree with your take on the Afterlife,however. Are you claiming that there is no life after death? No "moving on" or progressing to a Spiritual Level? Who do you think Jesus was? What is your take on Hell? Satan? Do you attend a Church? Which one?
Your philosophy almost sounds like Taosim gussied-up a bit with some Quantum Mechanics.
Lastly: your claim that scientists "Know" that waves from matter is wrong. You are speaking of String Theory and it is far from proven, and is in fact basically on its Death Bed as far as sub-atomic particle physics is concerned. (Yep,you ran into a science-savvy Christian my friend! Let's Go. I look forward to your replies!!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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7/29/2015 2:44:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 12:49:41 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/28/2015 10:27:42 PM, Dogknox wrote:

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
: :

The new covenant has nothing to do with eating flesh and drinking blood. This is a pagan idea that was added to the new testament.
talmud I hope all is well..
The new covenant is kept by eating flesh and drinking blood of the NEW unblemished Lamb of God. God has made the Gentiles his family, his own children!

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

All covenants are sealed with blood!

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

talmud New covenant ! NEW means the Old has passed away!

LOOK.. John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The Last Supper was a "Passover meal" Jesus is the NEW Unblemished Lamb of God!!!
Christians keep a NEW COVENANT a daily sacrifice!
talmud You have your OLD one, you can keep you Old Covenant... You are NOT Christian!!

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Jesus is the Lamb.. Slain 2000 years ago at the Passover. Christians have been keeping the New Covenant for the past two thousand years.. Eating the unblemished Lamb, sprinkling his blood on the door of our heart!
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/29/2015 2:52:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 2:44:27 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/29/2015 12:49:41 AM, talmud wrote:
At 7/28/2015 10:27:42 PM, Dogknox wrote:

53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
: :

The new covenant has nothing to do with eating flesh and drinking blood. This is a pagan idea that was added to the new testament.
talmud I hope all is well..
The new covenant is kept by eating flesh and drinking blood of the NEW unblemished Lamb of God. God has made the Gentiles his family, his own children!

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

All covenants are sealed with blood!

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

talmud New covenant ! NEW means the Old has passed away!

LOOK.. John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The Last Supper was a "Passover meal" Jesus is the NEW Unblemished Lamb of God!!!
Christians keep a NEW COVENANT a daily sacrifice!
talmud You have your OLD one, you can keep you Old Covenant... You are NOT Christian!!

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Jesus is the Lamb.. Slain 2000 years ago at the Passover. Christians have been keeping the New Covenant for the past two thousand years.. Eating the unblemished Lamb, sprinkling his blood on the door of our heart! : :

Christianity was formed from the beast. Christians do not know what the New Covenant is about.

Jeremiah 31
31: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32: not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

We're still living under the Old Covenant with millions of people trying to teach God to other people. A God that they do not know.