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The Dark Side of the JW Cult

dee-em
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7/29/2015 11:54:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jehovah's Witness abuser quoted scripture while assaulting daughter, royal commission told:

http://www.smh.com.au...

The father, given the pseudonym BCH, was a respected figure in the church who would conduct door-to-door preaching and deliver talks from an elevated platform at his congregation's kingdom hall in Queensland.

At home the man became a tyrant, with the commission hearing that he would beat his daughter so hard with a leather belt she would bleed from the welts.

The woman, now 43 and using the pseudonym BCG, told the commission that her father repeatedly molested her.

"While my father sexually assaulted me, he quoted Bible scriptures and referred to Bible scriptures about being more obedient that he made me put up on my bedroom wall," she said.

"He said to me while he sexually assaulted me, 'You have to be more obedient to me'."
dee-em
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7/29/2015 12:20:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid:

http://jwsurvey.org...

If you watch the video, it is sickening when the parents, with pride in their voice, explain how their blackmail had the desired effect of getting their son back into the cult. The irony is that many in the JW cult, including Watchtower, deny that shunning takes place.

In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was "questionable association with coworkers."

The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they "cut off all association" with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.


How is JWs a cult? They indoctrinate children from birth with regular "spiritual sessions" at home in addition to congregation/assembly attendance. They are forced to proselytize to others (field service hours, books/magazines placed) on pain of going "inactive" and being thrown out. If you stray from their teachings they get your own family to shun you so that you are cut off and isolated. We have MCB here in this forum in exactly this situation and he yearns for nothing more than to get back in. That's how a cult indoctrinates its members.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 12:20:41 PM, dee-em wrote:
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid:

http://jwsurvey.org...

If you watch the video, it is sickening when the parents, with pride in their voice, explain how their blackmail had the desired effect of getting their son back into the cult. The irony is that many in the JW cult, including Watchtower, deny that shunning takes place.

In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was "questionable association with coworkers."

The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they "cut off all association" with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.


How is JWs a cult? They indoctrinate children from birth with regular "spiritual sessions" at home in addition to congregation/assembly attendance. They are forced to proselytize to others (field service hours, books/magazines placed) on pain of going "inactive" and being thrown out. If you stray from their teachings they get your own family to shun you so that you are cut off and isolated. We have MCB here in this forum in exactly this situation and he yearns for nothing more than to get back in. That's how a cult indoctrinates its members.

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/29/2015 3:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 11:54:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
Jehovah's Witness abuser quoted scripture while assaulting daughter, royal commission told:

http://www.smh.com.au...

The father, given the pseudonym BCH, was a respected figure in the church who would conduct door-to-door preaching and deliver talks from an elevated platform at his congregation's kingdom hall in Queensland.

At home the man became a tyrant, with the commission hearing that he would beat his daughter so hard with a leather belt she would bleed from the welts.

The woman, now 43 and using the pseudonym BCG, told the commission that her father repeatedly molested her.

"While my father sexually assaulted me, he quoted Bible scriptures and referred to Bible scriptures about being more obedient that he made me put up on my bedroom wall," she said.

"He said to me while he sexually assaulted me, 'You have to be more obedient to me'."


An entire church should not be judged by the actions of a few members. I have worked with JW's who were wonderful people, and loved their grandchildren despite the fact that they became anti-religious. Every religion has its share of fanatics and nut cases. Many of them seem to find their way to this forum.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/29/2015 5:10:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...

There are different kinds of assault on children. These children are being assaulted by a cult. But since you prefer sexual examples:

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.christianpost.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.wisn.com...

I personally knew a pastor guilty of sexual assault. As teenagers, we opposed him being the pastor. He pulled each of us into his office and threatened to ruin our lives if we continued to oppose him. Two girls claimed they were sexually assaulted by him while in his office. I knew them well, and believed them. When the parents confronted the slimy pastor, his toadie, (who was later accused of molesting his own daughter) claimed that he was in the office with the pastor as he "interviewed" each teenager, and that no unChristian acts occurred.

Look down on the "cults" all you want. But your own cult is just as guilty, of not guiltier, of the same sins.

That's hypocrisy.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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7/29/2015 5:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 5:10:06 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...

There are different kinds of assault on children. These children are being assaulted by a cult. But since you prefer sexual examples:

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.christianpost.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.wisn.com...

I personally knew a pastor guilty of sexual assault. As teenagers, we opposed him being the pastor. He pulled each of us into his office and threatened to ruin our lives if we continued to oppose him. Two girls claimed they were sexually assaulted by him while in his office. I knew them well, and believed them. When the parents confronted the slimy pastor, his toadie, (who was later accused of molesting his own daughter) claimed that he was in the office with the pastor as he "interviewed" each teenager, and that no unChristian acts occurred.

Look down on the "cults" all you want. But your own cult is just as guilty, of not guiltier, of the same sins.

That's hypocrisy.

I'm not saying child sexual assault is tied to a given cult, it happens everywhere and anywhere it is just how it is...

what i do disagree with is the attempts to draw attention from these very serious sexual assaults by people who try to deflect from the problems by trying to point out zealous groups...
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/29/2015 5:33:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 5:18:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:10:06 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...

There are different kinds of assault on children. These children are being assaulted by a cult. But since you prefer sexual examples:

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.christianpost.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.wisn.com...

I personally knew a pastor guilty of sexual assault. As teenagers, we opposed him being the pastor. He pulled each of us into his office and threatened to ruin our lives if we continued to oppose him. Two girls claimed they were sexually assaulted by him while in his office. I knew them well, and believed them. When the parents confronted the slimy pastor, his toadie, (who was later accused of molesting his own daughter) claimed that he was in the office with the pastor as he "interviewed" each teenager, and that no unChristian acts occurred.

Look down on the "cults" all you want. But your own cult is just as guilty, of not guiltier, of the same sins.

That's hypocrisy.

I'm not saying child sexual assault is tied to a given cult, it happens everywhere and anywhere it is just how it is...

what i do disagree with is the attempts to draw attention from these very serious sexual assaults by people who try to deflect from the problems by trying to point out zealous groups...

Protestant churches never do this? They do. I've seen it first hand.

Do you believe that entire congregations and entire religions should be blamed for the acts of the sinful few?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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7/29/2015 5:55:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Anyone who think that the JWs are a cult is simply too ignorant to put in The research. Well, let me rephrase: If you think the JW organization is a cult then you also must think Catholicism and any other organized sect of Christianity is a cult. Let me give you the history of JWs and then you tell me if they are a cult.

The whole thing started with Pastor CT Russell, which is who I draw a lot of my interpretations from. He was a biblical thinker and indeed a "doomsdayer". However, he never claimed to be prophetic or have any extra knowledge from God that other people did not. He gathered FOLLWERS that were dubbed the Bible Students, or Russellites. This would be called the Bible Students Movement. Russell had very different beliefs than JWs in some respects. He used a KJV of the Bible, encouraged followers to attend whatever church they wanted, celebrated holidays, and even believed Jesus was executed on a cross. Russell sold all his clothing businesses and began to publish "Zion's Watchtower".

After his death, brother Joseph Franklin Rutherford took the reigns of the movement and renamed them to Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of the Bible Students did not follow Rutherford and even some splinter groups came up, such as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement. It is under Rutherford that we see the transition from a simple theological movement to an organized religion. He began establishing doctrines of the faith, such as Jesus died on a stake, no celebrating holidays, etc. He is also the one that started the project to create the NWT, which was never completed within his lifetime.

That is a rough summary of their early history, but let's jump to today. JWs are average people. They go to school with you, they work with you, and they shop at the same places as you. They watch the same movies as you, listen to the same music as you, and even read the same books as you (probably). Now, that is not to say that there are some very conservative JWs that do not do anything outside of the faith. Though I would argue that it is not the majority. There are roughly 8 million JWs across almost every country of the world. Their meetings, conventions, publications, and even HQ are open to the public. They do nothing even remotely cultish.

That is not to say that they do not have odd beliefs. I agree with about 75% of their teachings, but the ones I disagree with basically come down tot heir structure. I am not big on their views of disfellowship, shunning, apostasy, and repentance judgement. However, to say that those things make them a cult is just ridiculous.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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7/29/2015 6:34:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 5:33:26 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:18:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:10:06 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...

There are different kinds of assault on children. These children are being assaulted by a cult. But since you prefer sexual examples:

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.christianpost.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.wisn.com...

I personally knew a pastor guilty of sexual assault. As teenagers, we opposed him being the pastor. He pulled each of us into his office and threatened to ruin our lives if we continued to oppose him. Two girls claimed they were sexually assaulted by him while in his office. I knew them well, and believed them. When the parents confronted the slimy pastor, his toadie, (who was later accused of molesting his own daughter) claimed that he was in the office with the pastor as he "interviewed" each teenager, and that no unChristian acts occurred.

Look down on the "cults" all you want. But your own cult is just as guilty, of not guiltier, of the same sins.

That's hypocrisy.

I'm not saying child sexual assault is tied to a given cult, it happens everywhere and anywhere it is just how it is...

what i do disagree with is the attempts to draw attention from these very serious sexual assaults by people who try to deflect from the problems by trying to point out zealous groups...

Protestant churches never do this? They do. I've seen it first hand.

Do you believe that entire congregations and entire religions should be blamed for the acts of the sinful few?

No I do not believe entire congregations or cults are responsible but they are responsible for having it dealt with legally and properly, the moment they hide it it becomes a bigger problem to to the whole group and allows non believers to speculate that everyone was involved..
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/29/2015 10:33:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 6:34:41 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:33:26 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:18:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:10:06 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 4:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:44 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause...

Oh the hypocrisy of fundamentalists.

http://youtu.be...

yep i don't think hypocrisy is quite like child assault but hey if it makes you feel better go for it...

There are different kinds of assault on children. These children are being assaulted by a cult. But since you prefer sexual examples:

http://www.patheos.com...

http://www.christianpost.com...

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.wisn.com...

I personally knew a pastor guilty of sexual assault. As teenagers, we opposed him being the pastor. He pulled each of us into his office and threatened to ruin our lives if we continued to oppose him. Two girls claimed they were sexually assaulted by him while in his office. I knew them well, and believed them. When the parents confronted the slimy pastor, his toadie, (who was later accused of molesting his own daughter) claimed that he was in the office with the pastor as he "interviewed" each teenager, and that no unChristian acts occurred.

Look down on the "cults" all you want. But your own cult is just as guilty, of not guiltier, of the same sins.

That's hypocrisy.

I'm not saying child sexual assault is tied to a given cult, it happens everywhere and anywhere it is just how it is...

what i do disagree with is the attempts to draw attention from these very serious sexual assaults by people who try to deflect from the problems by trying to point out zealous groups...

Protestant churches never do this? They do. I've seen it first hand.

Do you believe that entire congregations and entire religions should be blamed for the acts of the sinful few?

No I do not believe entire congregations or cults are responsible but they are responsible for having it dealt with legally and properly, the moment they hide it it becomes a bigger problem to to the whole group and allows non believers to speculate that everyone was involved..

If the act was successfully hidden, how would you know about it? If it wasn't successfully hidden, then someone must have reported it. How many examples of religious leaders hiding such activity can you show me? Your point appears to be moot.

If non-believers speculate that everyone was involved due to the actions of a few within a particular religion or church, then those non-believers require therapy to help them overcome their extreme ignorance and (most likely) hypocrisy. They clearly cannot see the truth with those great big beams stuck in their eyes.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/29/2015 10:51:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 1:54:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 7/29/2015 12:20:41 PM, dee-em wrote:
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid:

http://jwsurvey.org...

If you watch the video, it is sickening when the parents, with pride in their voice, explain how their blackmail had the desired effect of getting their son back into the cult. The irony is that many in the JW cult, including Watchtower, deny that shunning takes place.

In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was "questionable association with coworkers."

The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they "cut off all association" with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.


How is JWs a cult? They indoctrinate children from birth with regular "spiritual sessions" at home in addition to congregation/assembly attendance. They are forced to proselytize to others (field service hours, books/magazines placed) on pain of going "inactive" and being thrown out. If you stray from their teachings they get your own family to shun you so that you are cut off and isolated. We have MCB here in this forum in exactly this situation and he yearns for nothing more than to get back in. That's how a cult indoctrinates its members.

they have been dealing with the abuses within the cult for some time, which many see as hiding the whole thing and I think they have a valid point, it is a legal matter and should be dealt with by the authorities..

I know the lds have had problems with the same thing..

this is the sort of think insular cults seem to cause... : :

Christians from all the various denominations keep stories of their pastors committing adultery to themselves. They usually kick these pastors out of their groups for such a sin and never allow them to be their pastor again. This is a sign of a cult.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,051
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7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 5:55:40 PM, tstor wrote:
Anyone who think that the JWs are a cult is simply too ignorant to put in The research. Well, let me rephrase: If you think the JW organization is a cult then you also must think Catholicism and any other organized sect of Christianity is a cult. Let me give you the history of JWs and then you tell me if they are a cult.

The whole thing started with Pastor CT Russell, which is who I draw a lot of my interpretations from. He was a biblical thinker and indeed a "doomsdayer". However, he never claimed to be prophetic or have any extra knowledge from God that other people did not. He gathered FOLLWERS that were dubbed the Bible Students, or Russellites. This would be called the Bible Students Movement. Russell had very different beliefs than JWs in some respects. He used a KJV of the Bible, encouraged followers to attend whatever church they wanted, celebrated holidays, and even believed Jesus was executed on a cross. Russell sold all his clothing businesses and began to publish "Zion's Watchtower".

After his death, brother Joseph Franklin Rutherford took the reigns of the movement and renamed them to Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of the Bible Students did not follow Rutherford and even some splinter groups came up, such as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement. It is under Rutherford that we see the transition from a simple theological movement to an organized religion. He began establishing doctrines of the faith, such as Jesus died on a stake, no celebrating holidays, etc. He is also the one that started the project to create the NWT, which was never completed within his lifetime.

That is a rough summary of their early history, but let's jump to today. JWs are average people. They go to school with you, they work with you, and they shop at the same places as you. They watch the same movies as you, listen to the same music as you, and even read the same books as you (probably). Now, that is not to say that there are some very conservative JWs that do not do anything outside of the faith. Though I would argue that it is not the majority. There are roughly 8 million JWs across almost every country of the world. Their meetings, conventions, publications, and even HQ are open to the public. They do nothing even remotely cultish.

That is not to say that they do not have odd beliefs. I agree with about 75% of their teachings, but the ones I disagree with basically come down tot heir structure. I am not big on their views of disfellowship, shunning, apostasy, and repentance judgement. However, to say that those things make them a cult is just ridiculous.

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!
tstor
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7/30/2015 3:50:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!
I don't recall any argument about whether JWs were Christian or not. Nor do I recall even mentioning Arius. Perhaps you can show me where I said those things?

As well, I do not take the Catholic Church as the end all authority like you do. So their beliefs in no way have an impact on mine. Though now that you mention it, I will explain why JWs are Christian:
Christian - a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
So JWs are baptized, follow the Bible, and follow the teachings of Christ Jesus within it.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/30/2015 4:00:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/29/2015 5:55:40 PM, tstor wrote:
Anyone who think that the JWs are a cult is simply too ignorant to put in The research. Well, let me rephrase: If you think the JW organization is a cult then you also must think Catholicism and any other organized sect of Christianity is a cult. Let me give you the history of JWs and then you tell me if they are a cult.

The whole thing started with Pastor CT Russell, which is who I draw a lot of my interpretations from. He was a biblical thinker and indeed a "doomsdayer". However, he never claimed to be prophetic or have any extra knowledge from God that other people did not. He gathered FOLLWERS that were dubbed the Bible Students, or Russellites. This would be called the Bible Students Movement. Russell had very different beliefs than JWs in some respects. He used a KJV of the Bible, encouraged followers to attend whatever church they wanted, celebrated holidays, and even believed Jesus was executed on a cross. Russell sold all his clothing businesses and began to publish "Zion's Watchtower".

After his death, brother Joseph Franklin Rutherford took the reigns of the movement and renamed them to Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of the Bible Students did not follow Rutherford and even some splinter groups came up, such as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement. It is under Rutherford that we see the transition from a simple theological movement to an organized religion. He began establishing doctrines of the faith, such as Jesus died on a stake, no celebrating holidays, etc. He is also the one that started the project to create the NWT, which was never completed within his lifetime.

That is a rough summary of their early history, but let's jump to today. JWs are average people. They go to school with you, they work with you, and they shop at the same places as you. They watch the same movies as you, listen to the same music as you, and even read the same books as you (probably). Now, that is not to say that there are some very conservative JWs that do not do anything outside of the faith. Though I would argue that it is not the majority. There are roughly 8 million JWs across almost every country of the world. Their meetings, conventions, publications, and even HQ are open to the public. They do nothing even remotely cultish.

That is not to say that they do not have odd beliefs. I agree with about 75% of their teachings, but the ones I disagree with basically come down tot heir structure. I am not big on their views of disfellowship, shunning, apostasy, and repentance judgement. However, to say that those things make them a cult is just ridiculous.

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"! : :

All God's saints were killed for testifying to the Word of God by the heathens who called themselves Christians and Jews. Most Christians hate the Truth.

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!
Dogknox
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7/30/2015 4:18:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 3:50:39 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!
I don't recall any argument about whether JWs were Christian or not. Nor do I recall even mentioning Arius. Perhaps you can show me where I said those things?

As well, I do not take the Catholic Church as the end all authority like you do. So their beliefs in no way have an impact on mine. Though now that you mention it, I will explain why JWs are Christian:
Christian - a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
So JWs are baptized, follow the Bible, and follow the teachings of Christ Jesus within it.

tstor Christians have always accepted the "Trinity" it's FACT!
History tells you about Arius the Heretic.. I never said you mentioned them.. I point to documented history.. You CANNOT twist History!

Christians removed Arius from among them .. Arius was Christian until he became a false teacher! Then he was removed from the Christians by the Christians!
Documented historical FACT: Arius was declared by the Christians "A False teacher" because he taught "Jesus is NOT God"! He was removed from the Christians BY the Christians..

Again.. If placed OUTSIDE he (Arius) cannot at the same time be INSIDE!
FACT: All who reject "Jesus is God" are NOT Christian!
tstor
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7/30/2015 4:19:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:18:03 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Christians have always accepted the "Trinity" it's FACT!
History tells you about Arius the Heretic.. I never said you mentioned them.. I point to documented history.. You CANNOT twist History!

Christians removed Arius from among them .. Arius was Christian until he became a false teacher! Then he was removed from the Christians by the Christians!
Documented historical FACT: Arius was declared by the Christians "A False teacher" because he taught "Jesus is NOT God"! He was removed from the Christians BY the Christians..

Again.. If placed OUTSIDE he (Arius) cannot at the same time be INSIDE!
FACT: All who reject "Jesus is God" are NOT Christian!
So you are just telling me your opinions about Arius and your opinions about what the true faith is? That is fine, but that is not what I was even remotely talking about before you jumped in.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Kyle_the_Heretic
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7/30/2015 4:26:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

1) While Arius was not entirely correct, he was much more correct that Athanasius, and the truer Christian by far.

2) Arius mostly understood that Jesus was equal to God the Father in authority, but subject to God the Father as the Son. His attempts to explain this were often ambiguous. Hence the confusion.

3) Athanasius used mob tactics to force his trinitarian heresy on the people, bathing his version of corrupt Christianity in innocent blood. He occasionally changed his doctrine to flatter the politics that would best support him.

4) While I do not agree with the JW doctrine, their attitude and belief in Christ is sufficient to say that they are indeed Christian.

Should there be any disagreement, I would be more than willing to take it to a debate.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Dogknox
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7/30/2015 4:28:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:19:52 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 4:18:03 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Christians have always accepted the "Trinity" it's FACT!
History tells you about Arius the Heretic.. I never said you mentioned them.. I point to documented history.. You CANNOT twist History!

Christians removed Arius from among them .. Arius was Christian until he became a false teacher! Then he was removed from the Christians by the Christians!
Documented historical FACT: Arius was declared by the Christians "A False teacher" because he taught "Jesus is NOT God"! He was removed from the Christians BY the Christians..

Again.. If placed OUTSIDE he (Arius) cannot at the same time be INSIDE!
FACT: All who reject "Jesus is God" are NOT Christian!
So you are just telling me your opinions about Arius and your opinions about what the true faith is? That is fine, but that is not what I was even remotely talking about before you jumped in.

tstor NO.. NOT my opinion! I am telling you about.. "Historic documented FACT!"
Fact: the Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

Christians are : Christ Followers!!

Jehovah Witness reject Christ for the teaching of the "False Teacher" Arius!! They believe the same as Arius a man removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic!
tstor
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7/30/2015 4:30:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:28:13 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor NO.. NOT my opinion! I am telling you about.. "Historic documented FACT!"
Fact: the Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

Christians are : Christ Followers!!

Jehovah Witness reject Christ for the teaching of the "False Teacher" Arius!! They believe the same as Arius a man removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic!
You are trying to make this a black and white issue, but it is not. Please read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org...
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Dogknox
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7/30/2015 4:33:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:26:20 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

1) While Arius was not entirely correct, he was much more correct that Athanasius, and the truer Christian by far.

2) Arius mostly understood that Jesus was equal to God the Father in authority, but subject to God the Father as the Son. His attempts to explain this were often ambiguous. Hence the confusion.

3) Athanasius used mob tactics to force his trinitarian heresy on the people, bathing his version of corrupt Christianity in innocent blood. He occasionally changed his doctrine to flatter the politics that would best support him.

4) While I do not agree with the JW doctrine, their attitude and belief in Christ is sufficient to say that they are indeed Christian.

Should there be any disagreement, I would be more than willing to take it to a debate.

Kyle_the_Heretic Good to meet you..
I reply: You change Nothing!
FACT: Arius was rejected by Christians as a False Teacher, a Heretic!

Arius is NOT a Christians because he rejects what Christians have ALWAYS believed and Taught as TRUTH! It is just this simple!

You are NOT Christians if you believe Jesus is "Not God"! Documented history tells you: "You are NOT Christian" you are the Protegee of the Heretic Arius!
Dogknox
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7/30/2015 4:35:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:30:33 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 4:28:13 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor NO.. NOT my opinion! I am telling you about.. "Historic documented FACT!"
Fact: the Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

Christians are : Christ Followers!!

Jehovah Witness reject Christ for the teaching of the "False Teacher" Arius!! They believe the same as Arius a man removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic!
You are trying to make this a black and white issue, but it is not. Please read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org...

tstor you are funny... Your words.. You are trying to make this a black and white issue
I reply: The topic is "The Dark Side of the JW Cult"!

It truly is dark... Satan also rejects, Jesus is God... Yes it is dark.. Very dark!
tstor
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7/30/2015 4:39:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:35:58 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor you are funny... Your words.. You are trying to make this a black and white issue
I reply: The topic is "The Dark Side of the JW Cult"!

It truly is dark... Satan also rejects, Jesus is God... Yes it is dark.. Very dark!
This leads me to believe that you do not know the meaning of the expression. As well, I see that you simply ignored the Wikipedia page I sent you.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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7/30/2015 4:41:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:33:21 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 7/30/2015 4:26:20 AM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Good to meet you.
Arius was removed from AMONG Christians in (about 330 A.D.) he was a Christian, he was removed.. He was rejected by Christians because he refused the "TRINITY"!

Arius was placed "OUTSIDE" from the Christians... as a False teacher IF..
tstor if "OUTSIDE" he cannot be "INSIDE" at the same time!

Arius was labeled a False teacher a "HERETIC"!
Arius rejected Jesus is God!

CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"

The Jehovah Witness are NOT Christian!

1) While Arius was not entirely correct, he was much more correct that Athanasius, and the truer Christian by far.

2) Arius mostly understood that Jesus was equal to God the Father in authority, but subject to God the Father as the Son. His attempts to explain this were often ambiguous. Hence the confusion.

3) Athanasius used mob tactics to force his trinitarian heresy on the people, bathing his version of corrupt Christianity in innocent blood. He occasionally changed his doctrine to flatter the politics that would best support him.

4) While I do not agree with the JW doctrine, their attitude and belief in Christ is sufficient to say that they are indeed Christian.

Should there be any disagreement, I would be more than willing to take it to a debate.

Kyle_the_Heretic Good to meet you..
I reply: You change Nothing!
FACT: Arius was rejected by Christians as a False Teacher, a Heretic!

Arius is NOT a Christians because he rejects what Christians have ALWAYS believed and Taught as TRUTH! It is just this simple!

You are NOT Christians if you believe Jesus is "Not God"! Documented history tells you: "You are NOT Christian" you are the Protegee of the Heretic Arius!

I wasn't trying to change anything. Arius was not rejected by Christians, but by those who had completely corrupted the Gospel. The "Trinity" was not always believed. Athanasius introduced it in force while adhering to the aforesaid corruption that created a schizophrenic god. So no, it's not simple at all.

But hey, if you're so sure you're correct, debate me on it.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
RuvDraba
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7/30/2015 4:53:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 11:54:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
Jehovah's Witness abuser quoted scripture while assaulting daughter, royal commission told:

There has been a lot of appalling testimony coming out of the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse. [https://en.wikipedia.org...]). It's interesting to see the testimony now appearing on DDO, but in Australia we've been seeing it since the Inquiry commenced in 2013.

It doesn't simply indict the JWs -- tragically, they seem to be a minor player -- it would seem to indict every major Christian denomination in Australia: Anglican, Roman Catholic, Methodist & Presbyterian ( the latter two now unified under Uniting Church.) The Commission's findings aren't due to be handed down until 2017, but I've yet to see a major church that I'd expect to be singled out laudably for its accountable, transparent and ethical handling of child abuse cases.

Yes, we can certainly critique the JW church for its opacity, isolationism and insularity. Of course that leads to egregious and unreported abuses.

But I think the problem goes much deeper still.

Nearly all the major churches in Australia are international corporates, claiming authority for a theology whose own provenance is neither accountable nor transparent. And because theological authority is opaque, the temporal authority of its religious functionaries and elites is viewed as unaccountable to society too. And the religious corporates exploit this -- in the trust of their parishioners, in the jurisdictional ambiguity of their own international reach, and in the community trust arising from their tax-exempt charity status.

From the insights arising from this Royal Commission, I believe they've forfeited the right to all three. Yes, the JWs need to be more publicly accountable, but so does every other major faith in Australia.

And I personally believe that no Australian parents should trust the minds or the bodies of their children to an Australian church until they are brought to full and lasting public account.
Composer
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7/30/2015 5:40:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 3:46:16 AM, Dogknox wrote:
CHRISTIANS have always believe Jesus is God, they "Believe in the Trinity" a agreed truth, non-contested truth! All who reject the Trinity and Jesus are NOT Christ Followers they are NOT "Christian!"
You LIE again Dognox!

At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

&

The Trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 304).

What it is, is explained by -

"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica)

So Catholics like YOU Dognox are Johnny Come Lately jebus' frauds!
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/30/2015 8:25:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Has the definition of the word cult changed? Here is the definition I last remember looking at.

Cult- A religious organization

If we're talking about the common usage of the word cult, I'd like to see a better argument for Jehovah Witnesses being classified as one.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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7/30/2015 12:07:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 11:54:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
Jehovah's Witness abuser quoted scripture while assaulting daughter, royal commission told:

http://www.smh.com.au...

The father, given the pseudonym BCH, was a respected figure in the church who would conduct door-to-door preaching and deliver talks from an elevated platform at his congregation's kingdom hall in Queensland.

At home the man became a tyrant, with the commission hearing that he would beat his daughter so hard with a leather belt she would bleed from the welts.

The woman, now 43 and using the pseudonym BCG, told the commission that her father repeatedly molested her.

"While my father sexually assaulted me, he quoted Bible scriptures and referred to Bible scriptures about being more obedient that he made me put up on my bedroom wall," she said.

"He said to me while he sexually assaulted me, 'You have to be more obedient to me'."


That is the dark side of that individual, not of the JWs.

There is absolutely no way he was behaving as the scriptures teach, noti by teh sounds of it in any way at all, and he was most definitely misapplying scriptures, as teh case of the son's of Korah shows.

They refused to obey their father saying, rightly, that they had to obey Jehovah before any man, even their father.

There is no dark side to the JWs simple as.

Blaming to organisation for the behaviour of individuals is wrong, especially since there is no way in heaven or on earth that they would have taught or encouraged him to behave that way.

How do you stand on atheists who do the same things, and worse?

Do you blame Atheism for it?

If not you are the worst kind of hypocrite.

Unfortunately things like that are just a part of Satan's influence on this system of things and will only cease when Armageddon has cleared all who think and act that way, whatever the claimed belief structure may be, from existence.
dee-em
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7/30/2015 12:29:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 12:07:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 7/29/2015 11:54:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
Jehovah's Witness abuser quoted scripture while assaulting daughter, royal commission told:

http://www.smh.com.au...

The father, given the pseudonym BCH, was a respected figure in the church who would conduct door-to-door preaching and deliver talks from an elevated platform at his congregation's kingdom hall in Queensland.

At home the man became a tyrant, with the commission hearing that he would beat his daughter so hard with a leather belt she would bleed from the welts.

The woman, now 43 and using the pseudonym BCG, told the commission that her father repeatedly molested her.

"While my father sexually assaulted me, he quoted Bible scriptures and referred to Bible scriptures about being more obedient that he made me put up on my bedroom wall," she said.

"He said to me while he sexually assaulted me, 'You have to be more obedient to me'."


That is the dark side of that individual, not of the JWs.

There is absolutely no way he was behaving as the scriptures teach, noti by teh sounds of it in any way at all, and he was most definitely misapplying scriptures, as teh case of the son's of Korah shows.

They refused to obey their father saying, rightly, that they had to obey Jehovah before any man, even their father.

There is no dark side to the JWs simple as.

Blaming to organisation for the behaviour of individuals is wrong, especially since there is no way in heaven or on earth that they would have taught or encouraged him to behave that way.

How do you stand on atheists who do the same things, and worse?

Would an atheist quote Dawkins on evolution whilst molesting his own daughter? You miss the point. The paternal authority assumed by JW men empowers some of them to mistreat their women and abuse their own children with impunity. Does an atheist have this mantle of authority? No. When this poor girl eventually broke the shackles of subordination and went to the elders of her church they acted like dirty old men. Not a hint of compassion or sympathy. Would this happen in a secular institution such as a school? No, it could only happen in a cult.