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Christian vs Atheist as a new force arises

Sooner
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7/29/2015 3:34:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am currently Agnostic. I don't reject Creationism or Atheism. One teaches science, evidence, and logic at its core. One teaches love, faith, hope, and reaching deeper than what we can physically see. Admittedly, during bad times I lean towards one. During good times I lean towards the other. At least I can admit that I have a sense of faith, but also have a sense of doubt. I was programmed at a young age to have faith. It's hard to ever fully reprogram yourself. I've studied Religions since my youth in depth and have read the words of Jesus. When I am faithless, I still hear the beauty of his words. If only everyone practiced the golden rule and loved each other with their words and actions. What a beautiful world it would be. If anyone has any insight on deeper meaning in life, I would hope it was someone like him. If there is no deeper meaning to life, then I still respect the words of Jesus, have applied his words in my life, listened to science and evidence, and was honest.
I was raised Baptist in the United States and grew up in the 1970's. Things were much different in America then. Christianity was in the vast majority in the U.S. at that time, and it had its way. Christianity in general had protected America. Because of the religion in itself? No. Because the people had a set standard. The people were more united. The majority stood behind one banner. If the government dared to cross the line, it was an embarrassment to their names as individuals. If they dared to ignore the Constitution, those "crazy Christians" would make a scene and would not shut up." The elected officials would have to stand alone as individuals in public because it was socially unacceptable to defy certain "Christian" ideals. The culture was different. Was Christianity right? Not always, but despite some "ignorant ideas", they stood together. In places they may have failed in ignorance, but the men of that time had fought a war in their younger years against a world leader who was a drug enduced psychopath. They faced "scary" as 17,18,19, & 20 year olds. Almost every man of that day had faced the fire. They fought at a time that was seriously deemed and truely believed to be "the end of the world". They faced down Naziism. They stared down the darkness, and they did it together. They came home and backed down from no one, much less the U.S. government. The people were Christians in vast majority, and there were unspoken standards, unspoken lines that you did not cross, whether correct or not. They were stubborn and not open to other ideas.

Whether technically correct or not, when the wolves of politics surrounded the chicken coup called Washington D.C., Christianity was the stubborn, intolerant, "crazy" guy sitting on the porch picking them off with a shotgun.
Today, with no strong majority, we are divided, and Washington exploits it. Who do they answer to? The "crazy" guy was chained up ,muzzled and tossed in a cage. That would be fine, but no one is watching the coupe, and pretty soon I'm afraid there will be no coupe left to protect. While Conservative Christianity and Liberal Atheism bicker, a new undivided power moves in. It plans on rebuilding the coupe and defending it against US. A group silently grows in number in the U.S. They will set a new set of standards with no tolerance, and you will convert or you will die.

Christianity by no means was perfect, but it was still the one at guard watching the post. It could sometimes seem nieve or lacking tolerance, but while it was being religious, intolerant, nagging, stubborn, and a pain in the butt on one side, it was also keeping its intolerant stare fixed upon the decisions made by our elected officials under the dome.

Christianity was like the strict father that gave you an 8:30 pm curfew, made you go to church, talked to your teachers weekly about how you were doing, made you make your bed every day, made you brush your teeth after every meal, made you eat at the table, and said,"No talking while eating.", but you stayed safe, knew the rules, and put on your "good boy face" when he was present. But now, "Daddy" has passed away. He may have been stubborn, ignorant about some things, and irritating to some, but he kept you fed, sheltered, and warm during the winter. We didn't agree with everything about Daddy and his ways, but one day we will need him, and he will be gone. We'll hear his unmoved, unshaken, and always bold voice echo in our mind. We will shake our head, and smile knowing he may not have been perfect, but he was better than a lot of dads, and he grew as a person as he went along.

So now, "Momma"(The U.S.) is going to get remarried or stay single. Her husband (Christianity) is gone now, and her suitor(Atheism) seems nice, but "isn't her type". He seems smart and attractive, but yet another suitor is smoothly working his way in. He is strong. He says what she wants to hear. And he does not take "no" for an answer. He doesn't care if she likes him as long as she trusts him enough to let him in the door. Once he gets in he plans on locking the door, making new, even stricter rules, and has a weapon to enforce his rules. He will be killing Mom if she doesn't submit to him. And then he will make the rules, period, or you will die. You will do as he says. He is your new dad. Where is your old daddy now? He's gone.

The new dad tears down your old house, builds his own, and yells at you if you breathe wrong. He always has his eye on you. He always keeps his weapon present.

He has your mom scared and doing whatever he says. He brings over another woman and gets her pregnant. He keeps getting her pregnant. He gets your mom pregnant over and over again. Now he has 10 kids. He thinks that you don't mind very well, so he gets his weapon out. He stands over you. He screams at you,"Call me your father! Show me respect! Call me your father!" You say,"You're not my dad." And that is the last words that you will ever speak. Atheism might have been an okay dad, since your daddy is gone, but this other guy had already locked him up, beat him, and killed him. Atheism tried to reason with him. Atheism tried to challenge him. Atheism tried to point out the madness of his words, thinking, and actions. But Atheism's use of "logic" was its end. Its IQ did not matter. The other guy had a weapon and wasn't hearing Atheism's opinions. Atheism had no "right" to say ANYTHING with this guy. All that is left is your mom, submissive and beaten, lying on the floor in fear. The new dad remains. And his 10 new children obey him. They do what he says. They mind him. They do as they are told. They are just like the new dad. They are all under his rule, and they accept it. Your daddy(Christianity) is gone. Your mom's intelligent suitor(Atheism) is gone. And you are gone. Your voices will be heard no more. You are a distant memory. America(your mom), is a slave. The mom you knew is gone and will never have a voice again. She will never wear red, white, and blue again. Her face is hidden. She is reluctantly "one" with the man and his 10 kids. Soon her reluctance will become submission and acceptance. She will have to accept her new identity. She betrayed her former husband(Christianity). She betrayed her first new suitor(Atheism). She betrayed you, her child(U.S. citizen). She let the other man into the house, and no one will ever challenge him again. No other opinions will ever exist. He has no one to face him down. His word is law. "Creationism" becomes truth. But Christian Creationism is gone. The "Creationism" that Atheists and Christians bickered over doesn't exist. If only they could have united together long enough to protect the United States. If only they had agreed to disagree. If only they had tolerated Science from one and faith from the other. They disagreed on religion, but agreed on freedom, agreed on the Constitution, and agreed on facing each other down to defend their beliefs. But divided they fe
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
dhardage
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7/29/2015 3:59:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 3:41:51 PM, Sooner wrote:
Divided they fell.

Considering the vast majority of those in power claim Christianity as their faith I find it difficult to accept your evaluation. The problems in our nation have nothing to do with lack of faith but an overabundance of greed and corporate influence. Why else would the SuperPacs spend literally a trillion dollars to support their candidates unless they expected serious return? Our politicians kowtowing to the furthest fringes of their respective constituencies brings a whole new level of institutionalized ignorance into the decision making process. Make churches and religions stop meddling, as the law requires if they want to remain tax exempt but the IRS is too cowardly to enforce it, and stop letting Corporations be considered the same as a living human being, put term limits on ALL elected offices to get rid of the career politicians whose only real aim each term is to get elected to the next one, and then we'll see just how badly we do.

We don't need a theocracy. That's part of the reason our ancestors left Europe, religious persecution of an intertwined religious and governmental hierarchy. Get religion out of politics, like Jesus did. Preach the gospel, live the example, show people how they should act. Passing laws based on purely religious beliefs won't solve a darned thing.
Sooner
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7/29/2015 7:02:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't defend either belief. If you find value in this, perhaps you were meant to, and if you were not meant to, then some incredible act of Science has brought forth our consciousnesses and our consciousnesses will share a moment in time. Either way, our existance is miraculous, and I am grateful for the time I have been given. Here I am, raw and honest.

I was raised in church. As a child, the idea of God was accepted. That is how I was taught, and I felt comfort in their being someone watching over me and loving me from a place of beauty, peace, and eternal life.

Jesus's teachings in the Bible were nice. His words were so good that even Ghandi, who was not a Christian and didn't care for many Christians, said,"I like your Christ. I just don't like your Christians."

He taught "do unto others as you would have them do unto you.", "Love God. Love your neighbor. Love even your enemy.", Patience, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, longsuffering, love is not rude, love does not always have to have its own way, love is slow to anger, slow to wrath, and "love never fails".

>"Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall stand forever." -Biblical Jesus

>"These 3 things I now leave you, faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love." -Biblical Jesus-

>He taught the parabal of "The Prodical Son".
This story tells of a son leaving his father, winding up squandering his inheritance, and in the end eating with the pigs like an animal. He goes back to his father's house desiring only to be a servant if nothing more. He expects ridicule and rejection, and he comes upon his father's house. He is met by his father RUNNING to meet him and grabbing him with tears in his eyes. He throws a feast of celebration for his son's return. When asked how he could celebrate this after the squandering of the inheritance, the father responded,"My son was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found." He was his son. That was all that mattered. The money was nothing to the father. The squandering, disrespect, and bad decisions were forgotten. He did not judge his son. He simply loved him, had mercy on him, and forgave him. The father's love for his son, saved his son's life.
*Jesus's words in the Bible changed the world."There are many ideas and quotes that people say even today that were his words. Sometimes people don't eveen realize they have quoted Jesus himself. He had taught the people that God loved them. He taught them to love each other. He taught them to love God. He even took it a step further saying,"Love your enemy. If he strikes your cheek, offer him the other and bid him take your coat as well." What? This seems so counterintuitive. It seems so nieve, but his speeches to the Pharisee priests showed he was anything but nieve. He taught love in its purity. He was so gentle in nature. But when the religious leaders took advantage of and robbed the poor while oppressing them mentally and spiritually, he spoke up. Not only did he speak up, but the teacher of love, patience, mercy, and being slow to anger, shouted to the masses of people going in and out of the temples, to "beware of the hypocrites, the Pharisees. They wear long robes, say long prayers, and sit in the front seats of the synagogue to be seen and praised by men." He shielded the poor and challenged the religious leaders in public. I would love to see him stand before our leaders in Washington today. Sadly, they would smirk and shake their heads, unable to understand selflesness, love, and sacrifice. There truely is some very simple knowledge that is so obvious, right, and good that those who deem themselves "elite" are too blind to ever grasp.

Sometimes love truely is the greatest intelligence.

He (Jesus) made it simple. It is man who makes it hard:
>"By the measure you are merciful, so shall mercy be shown unto you by God."
>"By the measure you forgive, so shall you be forgiven by God."
>The Pharisees asked Jesus what was the greatest commandment. He responded,"Love the Lord God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your might. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. And love your enemy..."
>OF SACRIFICE AND FRIENDSHIP: "There is no greater gift than that a man would lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends." -Biblical Jesus

>"Love is the complete fulfillment of the law."

<>There is a common theme to his words. LOVE. One rule and only one. No other rules. Just simply, LOVE. That is it. It seems so simple. Just imagine if those words resinated through the minds of all of humanity. There would be no greed, selfishness, or corruption, but man is easily distracted by shiny things. When I hear that man may have evolved from monkeys, it's not so hard to believe at first thought except that even monkeys treat each other better than human beings. Those who are magnified within themselves and think of themselves as elite smirk and strut with the greatest ignorance of all humanity. Their Earthly glory fades with every tick of the clock. Their treasures slide through their fingers as dust. Even the men whose faces are printed on our money and have statues of themselves throughout the U.S. had power, wealth, and knowledge. The Caesars of the Roman Empire were as deity-like kings, and with all their might, power, and glory accumulated as a mountain of fortune and wealth, became the dust beneath the feet of those they deemed as nothing. The dictators who have oppressed their people, what was the gain? They are like a man who drinks from an empty, broken glass believing their thirst is being quenched while ignoring a water fountain that stands only a few steps away.

>I saw a post one time that said Atheists are more intelligent. Then another one said Creationists have higher IQ's. I ponder silently a vision of them testing every human being on the face of the Earth with no memory of having taken a test for this myself. Were any of you a part of such a comparison test? If I took the 100 smartest Creationists and a mix of 100 random Atheists or vica versa and tested them, the results would be useless. The creators of String Theory and The Space Time Continuim Theory concieve(d) both concepts.

I could go through my credentials, but they would just be unproveable words posted with self centered motives, so I say this. I have never found intellect to be of any benefit when it comes to easily scrapping general Creationism or Atheism concepts and/or facts.. As a wise man once said,"Science doesn't need a creator and a creator doesn't need science." A declaration of 100% proof of Atheism or Creationism is outrageous.

Many Creationists will ignore science, facts, and experts in certain fields at all costs to the death. It's a box mentality. Only what is in the box is allowable. Nothing else can be true or can be considered. How about hearing a possible truth and seeing if it can be applied to your hopes or beliefs?

Many Atheists laugh at any idea that doesn't have a quick scientific explanation. I shake my head. If any "God creator" exists, science would have nothing to do with anything in verifying anything. How can a Sim in Sim City define the person that wrote the program for Sim City at a computer? How can they prove their programmer does or does not exist? A god is most likely not going to create someone who could observe, measure, define, or concieve them or their world. A god has no burden of leaving a footprint or any Perfectly designed explanation book to his creation.

If the princess can't convince Donkey Kong that their world was created by a programmer, then I guess he can go back to throwing barrels at Mario.

Whether Atheism or Creationism is true, if the exact truth of what happened down to the most minute detail were presented to us by a being, we would be presented with something that would sound like madness. No matter what you believe, our existance and how would be explained well above our tin
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
dhardage
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7/29/2015 7:25:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
>"Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall stand forever." -Biblical Jesus

>"These 3 things I now leave you, faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love." -Biblical Jesus-

>He taught the parabal of "The Prodical Son".
This story tells of a son leaving his father, winding up squandering his inheritance, and in the end eating with the pigs like an animal. He goes back to his father's house desiring only to be a servant if nothing more. He expects ridicule and rejection, and he comes upon his father's house. He is met by his father RUNNING to meet him and grabbing him with tears in his eyes. He throws a feast of celebration for his son's return. When asked how he could celebrate this after the squandering of the inheritance, the father responded,"My son was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found." He was his son. That was all that mattered. The money was nothing to the father. The squandering, disrespect, and bad decisions were forgotten. He did not judge his son. He simply loved him, had mercy on him, and forgave him. The father's love for his son, saved his son's life.
*Jesus's words in the Bible changed the world."There are many ideas and quotes that people say even today that were his words. Sometimes people don't eveen realize they have quoted Jesus himself. He had taught the people that God loved them. He taught them to love each other. He taught them to love God. He even took it a step further saying,"Love your enemy. If he strikes your cheek, offer him the other and bid him take your coat as well." What? This seems so counterintuitive. It seems so nieve, but his speeches to the Pharisee priests showed he was anything but nieve. He taught love in its purity. He was so gentle in nature. But when the religious leaders took advantage of and robbed the poor while oppressing them mentally and spiritually, he spoke up. Not only did he speak up, but the teacher of love, patience, mercy, and being slow to anger, shouted to the masses of people going in and out of the temples, to "beware of the hypocrites, the Pharisees. They wear long robes, say long prayers, and sit in the front seats of the synagogue to be seen and praised by men." He shielded the poor and challenged the religious leaders in public. I would love to see him stand before our leaders in Washington today. Sadly, they would smirk and shake their heads, unable to understand selflesness, love, and sacrifice. There truely is some very simple knowledge that is so obvious, right, and good that those who deem themselves "elite" are too blind to ever grasp.

Sometimes love truely is the greatest intelligence.

He (Jesus) made it simple. It is man who makes it hard:
>"By the measure you are merciful, so shall mercy be shown unto you by God."
>"By the measure you forgive, so shall you be forgiven by God."
>The Pharisees asked Jesus what was the greatest commandment. He responded,"Love the Lord God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your might. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. And love your enemy..."
>OF SACRIFICE AND FRIENDSHIP: "There is no greater gift than that a man would lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends." -Biblical Jesus

>"Love is the complete fulfillment of the law."

<>There is a common theme to his words. LOVE. One rule and only one. No other rules. Just simply, LOVE. That is it. It seems so simple. Just imagine if those words resinated through the minds of all of humanity. There would be no greed, selfishness, or corruption, but man is easily distracted by shiny things. When I hear that man may have evolved from monkeys, it's not so hard to believe at first thought except that even monkeys treat each other better than human beings. Those who are magnified within themselves and think of themselves as elite smirk and strut with the greatest ignorance of all humanity. Their Earthly glory fades with every tick of the clock. Their treasures slide through their fingers as dust. Even the men whose faces are printed on our money and have statues of themselves throughout the U.S. had power, wealth, and knowledge. The Caesars of the Roman Empire were as deity-like kings, and with all their might, power, and glory accumulated as a mountain of fortune and wealth, became the dust beneath the feet of those they deemed as nothing. The dictators who have oppressed their people, what was the gain? They are like a man who drinks from an empty, broken glass believing their thirst is being quenched while ignoring a water fountain that stands only a few steps away.

>I saw a post one time that said Atheists are more intelligent. Then another one said Creationists have higher IQ's. I ponder silently a vision of them testing every human being on the face of the Earth with no memory of having taken a test for this myself. Were any of you a part of such a comparison test? If I took the 100 smartest Creationists and a mix of 100 random Atheists or vica versa and tested them, the results would be useless. The creators of String Theory and The Space Time Continuim Theory concieve(d) both concepts.

I could go through my credentials, but they would just be unproveable words posted with self centered motives, so I say this. I have never found intellect to be of any benefit when it comes to easily scrapping general Creationism or Atheism concepts and/or facts.. As a wise man once said,"Science doesn't need a creator and a creator doesn't need science." A declaration of 100% proof of Atheism or Creationism is outrageous.

Many Creationists will ignore science, facts, and experts in certain fields at all costs to the death. It's a box mentality. Only what is in the box is allowable. Nothing else can be true or can be considered. How about hearing a possible truth and seeing if it can be applied to your hopes or beliefs?

Many Atheists laugh at any idea that doesn't have a quick scientific explanation. I shake my head. If any "God creator" exists, science would have nothing to do with anything in verifying anything. How can a Sim in Sim City define the person that wrote the program for Sim City at a computer? How can they prove their programmer does or does not exist? A god is most likely not going to create someone who could observe, measure, define, or concieve them or their world. A god has no burden of leaving a footprint or any Perfectly designed explanation book to his creation.

Another nebulous statement designed only do insulate the belief in God from any real criticism. It's the prime defense of religious thought and betrays the hollowness underneath.

If the princess can't convince Donkey Kong that their world was created by a programmer, then I guess he can go back to throwing barrels at Mario.

A program cannot question, since it has no volition of its own. It cannot question its own existence, let alone anything else. At least not yet.

Whether Atheism or Creationism is true, if the exact truth of what happened down to the most minute detail were presented to us by a being, we would be presented with something that would sound like madness.

You have no evidence to support that statement. If what the being said was testable and verifiable I would think it would be wonder and awe, not madness.
Sooner
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7/29/2015 10:04:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Considering the vast majority of those in power claim Christianity as their faith I find it difficult to accept your evaluation."

Politicians' claims to faith are meaningless words. I fit most all of Washington into one giant entity. I have no idea the faith claims of politicians, but am fully convinced that this entity is not moved by the teachings of Biblical Jesus when executing under the table "contributions". Meaning THIS in plain terms to me: The U.S. government was a snake 40+ years ago and is a snake now. The individual claims of the snake's body parts as being anything otherwise makes it no less a snake.

In other words the same "Constitution Gobbling" selfish, greed driven, corrupted "political Ideology" masking as the U.S. government that existed 40+ years ago is still alive and well in Washington today.

The difference is in the 1970's(A time period I grew up in), the U.S. government had a different group of citizens to deal with.

When I was growing up, Christianity was just accepted as fact basically by most everybody. 90+/100 people I knew, if you asked if they were Christian would say yes with no hesitation. If you said you were not a Christian during that time in America, you might as well have said you were a child molesting rapist. You were viewed as "evil". Society shunned you. Nobody was "coming out of the closet". No one. I knew zero openly gay people. Now I probably know about 20-25. Divorce was much more rare. Divorce was a shameful idea. It was deemed as a failure. You couldn't make it work out. Your marriage "failed". The point being, Christianity was a belief monopoly in this country at that time. There weren't cuss words on tv back then. Watch an old episode of the Dukes of Hazzard or HeeHaw or the Andy Griffith Show. Notice how tv shows had a mentality as though "Christian Authority" was life and a proven, accepted fact. It just wasn't accepted by society as a whole to cuss on tv. Why do you think that was? Communities centered around the church. The saying was "God, family, country". There was almost no concept of other serious religions. In America, Buhdism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc. weren't even taken seriously as anything other than basically a "Satanic Cult", or the "work of the devil". There was a culture of disbelief of anyone that challenged Christ. They were an "antichrist". Think about music. Elvis sang Gospel. I reiterate Gospel. Just for emphasis, GOSPEL. And he was viewed as a rebel troublemaker by many and wasn't accepted by many because of songs like "Blue Suede Shoes". His dancing jirated too much. It wasn't godly or proper. My dad had an 8 track in his car. He had the Stattler Brothers playing all the time. You don't have to go back in time much further and you get to a generation where to be a singer, you had to do some gospel to even be considered. Without gospel, you had no chance. Why do you think that was? My friends weren't allowed to watch rated R movies. Neither was I. It was pretty normal parenting practice.

And that's the point. Christianity WAS America through almost ALL of America's history, Christianity/God trumped all. And the strictness of religious society gets stricter and more superstituous the further you go back in our history. At first they burned "witches" at the steak. And fast forwarding on into the 1970's. No cussing on tv. Shows where characters burst out in Gospel song. Shows where they used words like "Shucks" and "Darn" were the norm. Things like Elvis jirating when dancing as socially frowned on. Simply observe tv from the 70's going into the early 80's, and you quickly get it that tv was hoakie. Three's Company, The Dukes of Hazzard, Mayberry RFD, HeeHaw, Chips, The Fall Guy, The ATeam, Starsky and Hutch, Bosom Buddies, and The Hardy Boys. No cuss words. And any inuendos were much more subtle on tv. You could imply things, but now they just show the thing happening.

And back to the point at hand. This was the "group think" that the U.S. government answered to. Think about it. The same society that had no cussing on tv and gasped at Elvis's dancing style, and never showed a man and a woman in the same bed was staring at Washington's leaders. The same eyes that looked as homosexuality as a spiritual disease, looked at simple rock n roll as the Devil's music, and loved Gospel Music in mass was in Washington's jock strap constantly. Was there a mild madness to some of things back then? Yes. But the fact is, the Christian population basically was the American population. The society was more strict. Beliefs ran deeper. And the older adult men had just fought in a war that was being deemed as Armageddon. WWII America believed Hitler was the Antichrist and afte the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, it was concieved by American society that America was fighting Satan and his "Son of Perdition". They were victims of death marches. They witnessed furnaces that human beings were burned in. The U.S. was bombed by a fleet of Japanese aircrafts. And in the clash against Japan, American pilots witnessed an enemy powered by kamakazis(suicide crash pilots), and then Atomic bombs were dropped destroying entire cities. Allied forces dropped thousand upon thousands of paratroopers directly into line after line of anti aircraft fire. I don't believe I ever met one single man from that generation who didn't fight in WWII. America sent every able bodied man. Major League Baseball disappeared temporarily as its players crossed the ocean towards Europe, Japan, and the South Pacific. Thousands of underaged boys lied about their age to stand by their brothers to the death. As my grandfathers both told me: This was percieved as the war of good vs. evil. People were looking for armies of angels and demons to march onto the face of the Earth in an all out battle of literal Hell, angels, demons, the Allied forces of man, and the Nazi followers of "the beast". And this was the group that were becoming older adults as the 1970's rolled in. An entire nation was raised by soldiers who had taken "the side of God" and through "faith" had defeated literal Hell on Earth in their minds. The nation was a unified nation. Can you really invision that generation standing for government raping the Constitution as it does now? Cops use "stingrays" that are a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment. What do you think would have been the reaction by that generation if gay marriage had been legalized. Civil war perhaps? How about punishments and penalties for not getting government mandatory Health Insurance? Or even mandatory drug testing on Welfare applicants which is a violation of the 4th Amendment, an infringement on religious freedom(What holy god wants people handling and exchanging bodily waste?), and 100% full fledged discrimination against a group? How about Native American Casinos popping up in mass? The generation I grew up in looked cross eyed at letting Bingo exist much less full blown casinos. What would have been the outcome of a Presidential candidate missing a birth certificate/proof of citizenship? Their name would have disappeared from the ballot. My grandfather's generation as the majority and unified by deep religious beliefs, would have stopped it and been digging out impeachment papers. They would have come into the capitol building through the dome on the roof and they wouldn't have stopped or shut up until they got their way. Today there is no general accepted ideal that unifies Americans. If one side challenges the government, the other side takes the government's back. The Conservative vs. Liberal war in this country is Washington's dream scenario. Half the country is behind every decision they make now. Depends on which side is backing them. And while the Liberals and Conservatives go head to head, an entity waits to launch a massive assault on the structure of America. They will drop Washington to its knees and make it negotiate. More destruction or share power.
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Sooner
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7/29/2015 10:38:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You have no evidence to support that statement. If what the being said was testable and verifiable I would think it would be wonder and awe, not madness.
"Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into

The Space Time Continuim Model (Theory then), and the term "fabric of space were mocked, ridiculed and referred to as "madness". Much of Einstein's ideas were science fiction in thought, deemed crazy, and his true genius was more and more apparent as his hypothesis became testable/proveable over time.

I would assume the every detail, nothing left out, version of how everything began would me much more complex than the Space Time Continuim
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Mike.com
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7/29/2015 10:42:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was born in 1944 in England UK where I am still. I was brought up by non Church attending Christians and most people in the UK then called themselves 'Christian' on Census forms and we are still known as a 'Christian Country'

We now probably have the lowest of all regular attendance to Church now and less than 10% of the population. But most citizens here like in the USA probably still believe in God but are not active Christians and never read the bible. Are we a less tolerant, more evil society as a result? Probably but as already said, that's not because of atheism but corporate greed and political weakness where we have pigmies in charge while they all join the grave train of greed. The rich get richer, the poor get marginally poorer but a lot better than my upbringing years where there was real poverty around.

The bible for me has NO moral superiority over common sense and decency where each of us know right from wrong without needing any bible or the words of Jesus who in all honesty were not good for humanity and peaceful co-existance. He said he came with a sword to divide families, father and son, mother and daughter. Don't give thought for tomorrow, leave your responsibilities and follow me, he said.

Love your enemies is crazy talk as do YOU in the USA love those who flew those planes into the WTC and caused so much misery? Does any mother or father, love the rapist, murderer who just killed their child? Or serial murderer? Does any Jew love Hitler and and all those who put to death 6 million of them and little children into the gas chambers? Maybe? I don't know but you really don't turn the other cheek with such behaviour.

Secular countries like the USA and the UK have progressed better without the bible as we now have laws that protect minorities and gay people and have equality of opportunity for men and women and read that its only in the last few years that only male juries were done away with in some places in the USA?

Our social security system and the NHS protects the vulnerable and both were secular decisions made by parliament. The abolishment of slavery was started here in the UK but not by the established church but a dozen non conforming Christian men and women, You in the USA still have enormous problems with race despite the claims of most to be a Christian nation where the bible was used by BOTH sided to justify aparteid and slavery.

I think the problem with religion is that the USA and here is the acceptance of Islam without question and imo they should have been denied entry because their modus operandii of the Quran represents things that most civilized nations would not accept as a basis for peace and harmony between peoples. I think that most may come to regret not doing that in years to come as their numbers increase. Indeed we no longer accept the cruelty of the OT in stoning people and children to death and why so many Jews are now secular. Muslims and it used to be the same for Christians in that they were and still not allowed to marry anyone outside of their faith and so how can that ever produce harmony?

Thank God we are moving away from standards set by medieval men and goat herders. The sooner the better. IMO anyway,

It was a well written piece anyway. Thanks.
Sooner
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7/29/2015 10:44:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"A program cannot question, since it has no volition of its own. It cannot question its own existence, let alone anything else. At least not yet."

-"At least not yet"-

The brain is an interpretory and memory storing device, computerlike, if you will, and we staryed questioning at a point.

Us: "Can you prove that you are self aware?"
Donkey Kong: "Can YOU prove YOU are self aware?"
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Mike.com
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7/29/2015 10:58:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Just to add something else about biblical morality.

Paul said that women must be subservient to their husbands and must obey him. Slaves must be treated kindly. Jesus said adultery was the ONLY reason for divorce and so wives had to put up with abusive/drunken husbands and worse. He said even if they did get a divorce, they could not remarry as that would be adultery as well. This doctrine has been enforced for 2000 years folks by the church and still is today. How anyone believe this was good moral teaching?

Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia or go out alone without their husbands, They were made to wear full bhurka outfits so other men could not see their looks or hair, How many women and girls are now today wearing hair covers.

The sooner we move away from such nonsense, the better for everyone imo. Why don't we stop trading with these theocratic countries until they recognise their human rights?

one word...No two words...Money and oil and now nuclear power as in Iran...That's three words...;)
Mhykiel
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7/30/2015 1:31:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 3:59:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:41:51 PM, Sooner wrote:
Divided they fell.

Considering the vast majority of those in power claim Christianity as their faith I find it difficult to accept your evaluation. The problems in our nation have nothing to do with lack of faith but an overabundance of greed and corporate influence. Why else would the SuperPacs spend literally a trillion dollars to support their candidates unless they expected serious return? Our politicians kowtowing to the furthest fringes of their respective constituencies brings a whole new level of institutionalized ignorance into the decision making process. Make churches and religions stop meddling, as the law requires if they want to remain tax exempt but the IRS is too cowardly to enforce it, and stop letting Corporations be considered the same as a living human being, put term limits on ALL elected offices to get rid of the career politicians whose only real aim each term is to get elected to the next one, and then we'll see just how badly we do.

We don't need a theocracy. That's part of the reason our ancestors left Europe, religious persecution of an intertwined religious and governmental hierarchy. Get religion out of politics, like Jesus did. Preach the gospel, live the example, show people how they should act. Passing laws based on purely religious beliefs won't solve a darned thing.

It's called democracy. When a school board rules 10-2 to pass sex identity education that a bunch of parents petitioned against... well it's not American. It means those in power rule regardless of how the people voice.

The kind of country 'progressives', athiests, and the powerful want.
RuvDraba
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7/30/2015 2:22:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That's an interesting account, Sooner... But you wrote it as though secular thought on national identity doesn't exist outside the US.

Are you at all aware of what other nations are doing?

The US used to draw its best thought from off-shore, typically through immigration and cultural exchange. Its best ideas about democracy and secularism came from France; its best science came from Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia; its best music came from Africa. That used to be its strength.

Used to be.

Now it seems to be promoting the belief that all the good ideas in the world were invented at home, by white, male, Protestant, straight, smalltown, crewcutted, hotdog-munching baseball players. Let's call that 'WASPBro America'.

Yet look overseas almost anywhere in the developed world, and you'll find ideas about how to manage national identity in the face of dwindling religious majorities that the US hasn't yet come to talk about.

Pretty much anywhere but Ireland, Italy and Greece will have ideas to offer in this respect. Heck, even a country as religious as Ireland is making inroads that the US isn't.

And you know where else does?

Just about any other part of the US has constructive ideas, except WASPBro America.

And that should give you some indication of what the problem really is: WASPBro America has no clue how to run pluralistic America to its own satisfaction because it can't...

And pluralistic America has no wish for WASPBros to continue running it. So there's no problem, really, is there?
Sooner
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7/30/2015 2:33:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
exist? A god is most likely not going to create someone who could observe, measure, define, or concieve them or their world. A god has no burden of leaving a footprint or any Perfectly designed explanation book to his creation.

-Another nebulous statement designed only do insulate the belief in God from any real criticism. It's the prime defense of religious thought and betrays the hollowness underneath.-

Would it feel less "hollow" if the words "most likely" were extracted from the statement?

If it eases the hollowness and insulated feeling or the "indestructable" nature of the argument, I can reword it:

-Reworded version- "If I, a free thinking, creative, conscious being, were a god in a finite reality exactly like ours, seeing I am easily amused and naturally targeting of arrogance and 100% certainty on uncertain topics, I would hide any trace of myself intentionally with the intent of a grand finale purposed towards my pure amusement. I would let those insinuating 100% certainty about my existance or lack thereof devise a jumbo scale demonstration in a gathering of thousands of the most respected minds in the field. I would patiently wait for a certain manor of speech as my cue for "divine intervention" or "undevine" in this case, and as the speaker said something like,"It is not helpful to mention a creator."or, "there is no evidence of any creator", or "Science doesn't need God." Or "It is stupid to believe in God. It's like saying Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the toothfairy exist..."
This would signal and manifest my "First Coming".

I would have a "holy book". In it there would be a prophecy that says,"In the Day of the donkey, the day of HIS coming, manifestation will be brought forth by the Anti Sooner. He will speak blasphemy about Sooner Allmighty in the unsacred Sooner Atheist temple. I looked out across the temple and asked a four legged angel, what are these things and what do they mean? The four legged angel replied,"This is a place of boastfulness, a place of chest puffing, a place of bad and dark things, a place of Sooner's constant guaze. This is the day of amusement, the day of giggles, the day of manifests, the day of sleigh, tooth, and egg. In the year of the donkey, the Anti Sooner will magnify himself in his heart, declare the Sooner as no Sooner at all, spew dark speech about "mythological beings" and bring forth the humorous wrath of Sooner. That which was not will be, and that which was will be unveiled. Sooner will come in all his glory and he will be seen for all that he really is. The trumpet will blow, the angels will sing a new song, a song of wonder, a song of the year of the donkey. The Anti Sooner will call the creator a tale, so tail there shall be after after tail. The Anti Sooner will soon be revealed, plates made of gold with S.M. were filled. His name R. D., his book had a name, but Sooner reversed it as God's little game."

The Anti Sooner spoke those blasphemous words denying Sooner, mocking him, challenging him. He declared the challenge to the Anti Sooner Masses in the Anti Sooner Temple. "Sooner is just a tale! If Sooner exists, then Tail! Tell! Tale!"
And it happened. The trumpet blew. Angelic voices resignated in the Temple. The lights began going on and off repeatedly like a strobe light. The angelic song became clear. The words became more clear.. "I ....move....."
"I like to move...." "I like to move it move it! I like to move it move it!" The angelic voices manifested themselves. These were no normal angelic hosts. Four legged spirits, four legged ghosts. A revelation for the doubters to see, the angelic hosts were from Shrek 1,2 & 3. Donkeys appeared Shrek donkeys they were, chanting "Move it! Move it!" With chissled grey fur.

The dimensional winds gusted and the rhymes ended. The humor was done. Or was it?

"To know Sooner is to know Sarcasm, for Sooner is sarcssm." Shrek10:22

*The Curse of the monkey Tail*
The crowd gasped in horror as each one of them began to grow a tail. A monkey tail to be precise. Tails manifested on each of the Anti Sooner's followers. The Anti Sooner said "Tale" so tale after tale after tail monkey tails.

"Manifest. That which was not, was"
The song of the donkeys continued on as they circled the temle,"I like to move it! Move it!"
An angelic Trinity took shape. A portal of skittles formed and began spiraling around. The trinity form. They appeared to be a rabbit, a chubby man, and fairy. Their oneness divided into 3. The rabbit held a basket of eggs. The chubby man had a red suit and a bag full of toys. The fairy carried a small jar with children's teeth in it. The Anti Sooner had denied their existance, but there they stood. Santa Clause. Easter Rabbit. Tooth fairy. They began to morph back together into one. Reindeer danced in a circle around the Anti Sooner singing background vocals to "Move it!" While angelic Shrek donkeys hunted painted eggs collecting them in baskets.

"The Mystery of the S.G. A mystery of Anti Sooner R.D."
"Sooner Revealed as he really is"
The Anti Sooner saw a flash of light. He shielded his eyes, but it was so bright. He heard a voice from the light. "Richard? Richard? Richard? Why do you persecute me?"
The Anti Sooner was revealed. His face shown as a light. He responded,"Who is it that I persecute?" The voice replied, it is I, Sooner whom you persecute." Golden plates began morphing in front of Richard hovering in place. A book floated out of the light. "What is this book Sooner?" Asked Richard. "Your book The Sooner Delusion," spoke Sooner. Richard got closer and said,"What is this? It says the Dawkins Delusion by: Sooner." Sooner replied,"I changed it for my pleasure."
The book opened. Richard Dawkins looked at its text. It read. There is no Dawkins. He does not exist. I, Sooner am in Heaven and have never seen a Dawkins. I have never heard, touched, smelled, or tasted a Dawkins. There is no evidence to support that a Dawkins exists. But the S.G.? He Does exist. He is not so dreadful as one might think. He is quite a delicious treat. S.G. manifest so that he might believe." Sooner as a ball of light flashed as a semi-human form all around the room, here, there, up, down, and all around. Sooner's maddening laughter echoed through and off the temple walls mixed with a parade of Shrek donkeys singing "I like to move it, move it!" over and over and over. And the S.G. spoke,"My critic!" Bizzare chuckles emitted as the S.G. formed, twitching and sprouting, and mutating in chaotic seizures. And there he was, flying around. The monster... theflying monster...the flying spaghetti monster! He zoomed around Dawkins screaming,"There is no Dawkins!" He would scream the words then grow. Scream. Grow. Scream. Grow. "There is no!...." and he exploded into balls of spaghetti landing perfectly on the golden plates before Dawkins. The Anti Sooner crowd gasped in horror as the balls of spaghetti demanded,"partake of me!" over and over. A symphony of dancing singing shrek donkeys. A constant saying of "Partake of me." And Sooner flashing here and there while chanting,"I'm not real! I'm not real!" "I'm not real!" Dawkins screamed in madness,"Sooner! Show yourself! Show yourself!" It all stopped. The lights went out. Sooner began to take form. The crowd looked on with anticipation. The room turned to white. There was Sooner. He was large, a giant really. Dawkins asked,"You are some really big, tall, giant? Ha, that's it?" Sooner spoke,"Look at yourself." Dawkins looked at himself. He realized he was no more than a stickman. He looked at his followers. They were sticksheep. The sounds of baaaaaaa! Filled the void. He looked up at Sooner. Sooner held a giant pencil in his hand. He turned the eraser down. dawkins screamed,"What are you doing?!?!" The eraser got closer. Sooner began erasing. He spoke,"No Mr. Dawkins. It is you who does not exist."

I don't reject or accept anything. "The Theory of Everything"
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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7/30/2015 6:05:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 3:34:41 PM, Sooner wrote:
I was raised Baptist in the United States and grew up in the 1970's.

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Sooner
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7/30/2015 6:20:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 6:05:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:34:41 PM, Sooner wrote:
I was raised Baptist in the United States and grew up in the 1970's.

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.

Which would mean I was born in the 1970's.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
bulproof
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7/30/2015 6:30:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 6:20:25 AM, Sooner wrote:
At 7/30/2015 6:05:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/29/2015 3:34:41 PM, Sooner wrote:
I was raised Baptist in the United States and grew up in the 1970's.

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.

Which would mean I was born in the 1970's.

1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Sooner
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7/30/2015 6:40:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.

So when would you say I grew up? My tv examples from my time period were Dukes of Hazzard, Chips, threes company, etc. , shows that ran from the late 70's into the 80's. References to WWII in the 1940's are obviously not examples of my growing up period. Where do you feel any such semantics argument changes the points of the threads?
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Sooner
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7/30/2015 6:47:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.

Curious. Why has your focus from the debate detoured? Has your argument lost fuel?

1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
bulproof
Posts: 25,210
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7/30/2015 6:53:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 6:40:35 AM, Sooner wrote:
1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.

So when would you say I grew up? My tv examples from my time period were Dukes of Hazzard, Chips, threes company, etc. , shows that ran from the late 70's into the 80's. References to WWII in the 1940's are obviously not examples of my growing up period. Where do you feel any such semantics argument changes the points of the threads?

Honesty.
You demonstrate none.
Tell me what you remember of the 70's, not what you've been told of the 70's.
You were maybe 1yr old when the 80's began.
What do you remember of your first year.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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7/30/2015 6:55:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 6:47:15 AM, Sooner wrote:

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.

Curious. Why has your focus from the debate detoured? Has your argument lost fuel?


1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.

I've made no argument.
I've questioned your honesty and you've proven to be dishonest even further.
You didn't grow up in the 70's.
That is a lie you are still trying to defend.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Sooner
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7/30/2015 7:21:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Honesty.
You demonstrate none.

There was no motive for saying 1970's other than had I been born 1 week and 2 days earlier it would have been 1978. (January 9, 1979) Seeing I'm well aware of my exact age being on my profile I would say "dishonest" would really mean that I used references not from within my actual time of growing up, which the examples are shows that ran well into the 1980's, which are the "real" shows that I grew up watching. The examples of society as I grew up are how America was when I grew up. Have a Dukes of Hazzard episode? Is it not obvious that the social standards of tv at that time were extremely different and stricter than today? State an episode from any 1978-1989 sitcom that used a 4 letter word(cuss word). I stated that my dad had an 8 track player in his car which is true and true to my time period. Dishonest would have been I grew up in the days of record players or shortwave radios. Dishonest would have been I grew up watching I Love Lucy and Happy Days and not the reruns. There are references to other time periods such as 1948, explaining why my generations society had a certain environment and feel. Those of ages controlling our country when I was young were WWII war veterans. So my grandfathers were say 22 at the end of WWII in 1948. Do the math. They were 50+ years old when I was small. 40-60 year olds tend to run things and have the influence. The data compared to my exact age matches up. You are dishonest in that your point on the thread lost fuel, and instead of continuing to dribble the basketball to try and score, you threw the ball over the fence so no one could score as an excuse to not have to play anymore.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
bulproof
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7/30/2015 7:40:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:21:22 AM, Sooner wrote:
Honesty.
You demonstrate none.

There was no motive for saying 1970's other than had I been born 1 week and 2 days earlier it would have been 1978. (January 9, 1979) Seeing I'm well aware of my exact age being on my profile I would say "dishonest" would really mean that I used references not from within my actual time of growing up, which the examples are shows that ran well into the 1980's, which are the "real" shows that I grew up watching. The examples of society as I grew up are how America was when I grew up. Have a Dukes of Hazzard episode? Is it not obvious that the social standards of tv at that time were extremely different and stricter than today? State an episode from any 1978-1989 sitcom that used a 4 letter word(cuss word). I stated that my dad had an 8 track player in his car which is true and true to my time period. Dishonest would have been I grew up in the days of record players or shortwave radios. Dishonest would have been I grew up watching I Love Lucy and Happy Days and not the reruns. There are references to other time periods such as 1948, explaining why my generations society had a certain environment and feel. Those of ages controlling our country when I was young were WWII war veterans. So my grandfathers were say 22 at the end of WWII in 1948. Do the math. They were 50+ years old when I was small. 40-60 year olds tend to run things and have the influence. The data compared to my exact age matches up. You are dishonest in that your point on the thread lost fuel, and instead of continuing to dribble the basketball to try and score, you threw the ball over the fence so no one could score as an excuse to not have to play anymore.

You DID NOT grow up in the seventies, you spent a little less than a year in the seventies and you have no personal knowledge of the seventies.
Why do you continue to try to defend that LIE?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Sooner
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7/30/2015 7:45:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 6:55:45 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2015 6:47:15 AM, Sooner wrote:

And your bio claims you are 36yrs old.

Curious. Why has your focus from the debate detoured? Has your argument lost fuel?


1979, bit hard to grow up in the seventies when you left them at 1yr old.

I've made no argument.
I've questioned your honesty and you've proven to be dishonest even further.
You didn't grow up in the 70's.
That is a lie you are still trying to defend.

-----------
You are like 2 men playing chess. One man picks off piece after piece after piece. He has 10 pieces taken and his opponent has only taken 3 pieces. There is no time to finish the match that day, so they leave the board as it is. The guy that's only taken 3 pieces sneaks in early, throws the board on the floor scattering the pieces. Then he leaves. When both guys arrive later to finish the match the winning guy sees the board is on the floor, pieces scattered and since the situation is so, the first guy can always claim he might would have won, but he has set it up so that he doesn't lose. So essentially, your refocus on something meaningless and off topic is your way to push the board on the floor and scatter the pieces. What you did was an attempt to prevent any further embarassment to your argument which essentially was "it was no harder back then for our government to misbehave than now." Which with each of my points, showed your combative swipe at my argument was a swipe in the dark. Any normal, decent human being can rationalize that it would obviously be harder to misbehave back then than now. The nation was more religious by far back then, and the nation was much more Christian majority back then. AND the religious Chridtians back then were more strict overall than the religious now overall. Therefore it was harder in 1950, 1960 , 1970, 1980, etc. For our elected officials to misbehave than it is now. And with each decade you go back it wasmore unified and more Christian majority, and more strict.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Sooner
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7/30/2015 8:19:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
observe tv from the 70's going into the early 80's, and you quickly get it that tv was hoakie. Three's Company, The Dukes of Hazzard, HeeHaw, Chips, The Fall Guy, The ATeam, Starsky and Hutch, and Bosom Buddies, No cuss words. And any inuendos were much more subtle on tv. You could imply things, but now they just show the thing happening.

Would you say this piece of my earlier debate supports your accusation of dishonesty?
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.