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Is the soul immortal?

tstor
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7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

Well, "nephesh" means "the breathing substance or being" or "living being (with life in the blood)". "Psykhe" means "a human person, an individual"

With those meanings in mind, consider these verses:
Genesis 2:17: "man became a living soul" (KJV)
Lev. 5:2; 7:20; 23:39; Deu. 12:20; Rom 13:1: The soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

Now that we have defined the soul and seen scriptures that discuss the nature of it, is it immortal? Consider these verses:
Ezekiel 18:4, 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV)
Exod. 12:15, 19; Lev. 7:20, 21, 27, 19:18: "the soul shall be cut off" (KJV)

And just for fun, we can look at one of the terrible renditions of the KJV of the Bible. In Lev. 21:11 and Numbers 6:6, we read "dead body". Some render it as "dead person". Both are incorrect. The original Hebrew uses "nephesh", so it should be "dead soul".

http://www.biblestudytools.com......
http://biblehub.com......
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/29/2015 11:01:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM, tstor wrote:
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

I'd say that a soul is what a soul does, Tstor. And from what I've seen, souls do nothing empirically verifiable, yet get talked about a lot.

So in my view, souls must be mortal, since Kim Kardashian also is.
talmud
Posts: 154
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7/30/2015 12:19:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM, tstor wrote:
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

Well, "nephesh" means "the breathing substance or being" or "living being (with life in the blood)". "Psykhe" means "a human person, an individual"

With those meanings in mind, consider these verses:
Genesis 2:17: "man became a living soul" (KJV)
Lev. 5:2; 7:20; 23:39; Deu. 12:20; Rom 13:1: The soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

Now that we have defined the soul and seen scriptures that discuss the nature of it, is it immortal? Consider these verses:
Ezekiel 18:4, 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV)
Exod. 12:15, 19; Lev. 7:20, 21, 27, 19:18: "the soul shall be cut off" (KJV)

And just for fun, we can look at one of the terrible renditions of the KJV of the Bible. In Lev. 21:11 and Numbers 6:6, we read "dead body". Some render it as "dead person". Both are incorrect. The original Hebrew uses "nephesh", so it should be "dead soul".

http://www.biblestudytools.com......
http://biblehub.com...... : :

The dead are the flesh of man that can't move unless it has information to move. A created being is made from information, which is our created existence. The proud of the earth is the flesh in this prophecy;

Psalms 22:
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
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7/30/2015 4:09:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM, tstor wrote:
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

Well, "nephesh" means "the breathing substance or being" or "living being (with life in the blood)". "Psykhe" means "a human person, an individual"

With those meanings in mind, consider these verses:
Genesis 2:17: "man became a living soul" (KJV)
Lev. 5:2; 7:20; 23:39; Deu. 12:20; Rom 13:1: The soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

Now that we have defined the soul and seen scriptures that discuss the nature of it, is it immortal? Consider these verses:
Ezekiel 18:4, 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV)
Exod. 12:15, 19; Lev. 7:20, 21, 27, 19:18: "the soul shall be cut off" (KJV)

And just for fun, we can look at one of the terrible renditions of the KJV of the Bible. In Lev. 21:11 and Numbers 6:6, we read "dead body". Some render it as "dead person". Both are incorrect. The original Hebrew uses "nephesh", so it should be "dead soul".

http://www.biblestudytools.com......
http://biblehub.com......
tstor Christian believe the scriptures... Christians believe in an Everlasting fire....
Jesus destroyed death.. Death is NO more thus the suffering remains forever! To say different is to say "Death remains" Jesus failed!

Ignatius of Antioch IS CHRISTIAN
He said...
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into *unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1"2 [A.D. 110]).

DID YOU SEE IT? Note the early date!!! *Unquenchable fire [A.D. 110]

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from* eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

* Eternal punishment

Justin Martyr
*"[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy" (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

Christians reject any teaching that says, hell has "Quenchable fire!"*Eternal fire was prepared for him...

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be *detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

*Detained in everlasting fire"

Irenaeus is a Christian
"[T]o Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" [Phil. 2:10"11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . [T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] *into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

*Into everlasting fire;
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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7/30/2015 4:18:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:09:47 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Christian believe the scriptures... Christians believe in an Everlasting fire....
Jesus destroyed death.. Death is NO more thus the suffering remains forever! To say different is to say "Death remains" Jesus failed!
By everlasting fire I assume you mean the hellfire? That is nothing more than a load of crock. There is no scriptural basis for the hellfire. The Bible quite clearly tells us that hell (sheol) is the grave.

Ignatius of Antioch IS CHRISTIAN
He said...
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into *unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1"2 [A.D. 110]).

DID YOU SEE IT? Note the early date!!! *Unquenchable fire [A.D. 110]

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from* eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

* Eternal punishment


Justin Martyr
*"[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy" (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).
I believe that you are missing the point of this thread, which is about the immortality (or lack of) of the soul. This thread is NOT about the hellfire. As well, for you to justify your beliefs by fallible men is not anywhere near as reasonable as addressing your beliefs with the infallible scriptures.

Christians reject any teaching that says, hell has "Quenchable fire!"*Eternal fire was prepared for him...

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be *detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

*Detained in everlasting fire"

Irenaeus is a Christian
"[T]o Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" [Phil. 2:10"11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . [T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] *into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

*Into everlasting fire;
So you just went off on a rant about the hellfire on a thread about the soul? I fail to see the direct correlation between the two. If you want to discuss the hellfire, you can create a new thread or PM me. Though to try and change the topic of this thread is demeaning the subject at hand.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
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7/30/2015 4:23:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:18:00 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 4:09:47 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor Christian believe the scriptures... Christians believe in an Everlasting fire....
Jesus destroyed death.. Death is NO more thus the suffering remains forever! To say different is to say "Death remains" Jesus failed!
By everlasting fire I assume you mean the hellfire? That is nothing more than a load of crock. There is no scriptural basis for the hellfire. The Bible quite clearly tells us that hell (sheol) is the grave.

Ignatius of Antioch IS CHRISTIAN
He said...
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into *unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1"2 [A.D. 110]).

DID YOU SEE IT? Note the early date!!! *Unquenchable fire [A.D. 110]

Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from* eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

* Eternal punishment


Justin Martyr
*"[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy" (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).
I believe that you are missing the point of this thread, which is about the immortality (or lack of) of the soul. This thread is NOT about the hellfire. As well, for you to justify your beliefs by fallible men is not anywhere near as reasonable as addressing your beliefs with the infallible scriptures.

Christians reject any teaching that says, hell has "Quenchable fire!"*Eternal fire was prepared for him...

Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be *detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

*Detained in everlasting fire"

Irenaeus is a Christian
"[T]o Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" [Phil. 2:10"11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . [T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] *into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

*Into everlasting fire;
So you just went off on a rant about the hellfire on a thread about the soul? I fail to see the direct correlation between the two. If you want to discuss the hellfire, you can create a new thread or PM me. Though to try and change the topic of this thread is demeaning the subject at hand.

THE THREAD IS "Is the soul immortal?"
Everlasting fire and everlasting punishment makes it very clear.. The Soul is Immortal! On Topic!
tstor nice try... Jesus.. (God him self) tells you.. "You are wrong"!

Matthew 25
44 "They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
45 "He will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
tstor
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7/30/2015 4:43:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:23:59 AM, Dogknox wrote:

THE THREAD IS "Is the soul immortal?"
Everlasting fire and everlasting punishment makes it very clear.. The Soul is Immortal! On Topic!
tstor nice try... Jesus.. (God him self) tells you.. "You are wrong"!
Nice try? Try at what? So rather than directly addressing the scriptures I presented about the soul, you just bring up fallible accounts about the hellfire? I still fail to see how it is relevant. The Bible does not teach an eternal hellfire. As I stated, if you want to discuss this topic either create a new thread or PM me. This is not the appropriate thread for the discussion.

Matthew 25
44 "They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
45 "He will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You fail to cite the translation used. I presume it was the NIV?
These verses (Matthew 25: 41, 46) raise two good questions, one of which: Is "the eternal fire" Jesus warned of literal or symbolic? We must note that the "eternal fire" brought up by Jesus, which was recorded at Matthew 25:41, was prepared "for the devil and his angels." In all honesty, do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures such as the Devil and his angels? Or is it more reasonable to interpret that Jesus was using the term "fire" symbolically? Certainly we know "the sheep" and "the goats" mentioned in the same passage are not literal. They are word pictures that represent two types of people. (Matthew 25:32, 33) The "eternal fire" that Jesus spoke of only completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.

The other question we have to raise is: In what sense do the wicked "go away to eternal punishment"? Although most translations render the word "punishment" (which is why I asked which translation you used) at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word "kolasin" is "checking the growth of trees" or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheep-like ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goat-like ones suffer "eternal punishment", which simply means being forever cut off from life.

However, please do not continue to push the topic of the hellfire on a thread about the soul. That is unless you try to tie it in with the idea of an immortal soul, which you have yet to do.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skepticalone
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7/30/2015 4:47:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 11:01:15 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

I'd say that a soul is what a soul does, Tstor. And from what I've seen, souls do nothing empirically verifiable, yet get talked about a lot.

This.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
tstor
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7/30/2015 6:00:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:47:32 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 7/29/2015 11:01:15 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

I'd say that a soul is what a soul does, Tstor. And from what I've seen, souls do nothing empirically verifiable, yet get talked about a lot.

This.
I was actually quite amused by that as well.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Sooner
Posts: 1,012
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7/30/2015 6:54:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If we're going off the Bible, maybe so.
"I knew you before you were ever born."
Then you live here. Then you are in Heaven. In Christianity at least.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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7/30/2015 10:57:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe the word 'soul' is just another name for consciousness and ceases to be when our body dies.
MadCornishBiker
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7/30/2015 11:49:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM, tstor wrote:
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

Well, "nephesh" means "the breathing substance or being" or "living being (with life in the blood)". "Psykhe" means "a human person, an individual"

With those meanings in mind, consider these verses:
Genesis 2:17: "man became a living soul" (KJV)
Lev. 5:2; 7:20; 23:39; Deu. 12:20; Rom 13:1: The soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

Now that we have defined the soul and seen scriptures that discuss the nature of it, is it immortal? Consider these verses:
Ezekiel 18:4, 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV)
Exod. 12:15, 19; Lev. 7:20, 21, 27, 19:18: "the soul shall be cut off" (KJV)

And just for fun, we can look at one of the terrible renditions of the KJV of the Bible. In Lev. 21:11 and Numbers 6:6, we read "dead body". Some render it as "dead person". Both are incorrect. The original Hebrew uses "nephesh", so it should be "dead soul".

http://www.biblestudytools.com......
http://biblehub.com......

Satan loves to throw confusion into the mix, but you have it dead right.

The only truly immortal being is Jehovah himself.

He has since granted immortality to his son in reward for his faithful service as the Christ.

He has also granted it to those of the elect, the anointed, who go to heaven to serve alongside his son, as"Kings and Priests" in heaven.

Humanity was originally intended to live eternally, not the same thing as immortally, on the earth, and that plan was sidetracked by Satan's challenge to jehovah's right to rule.

However the challenge is nearly over, and Satan has lost, so soon the original plan will be put back in place, thanks to the sacrifice performed by Jehovah's only begotten son, as the Christ on earth.

Humans will never be immortal in any sense, though all who remain faithful may just as well be.

Soon the dead will be woken from their dreamless sleep and given new bodies, with all the qualities and prospects that Adam and Eve threw away. From that day on, none will need to, as scripture puts it "fall asleep" ever again, but any unfaithfulness will automatically result in instant, and permanent, destruction carried out at jehovah's leisure.

That is as near as humanity, apart from the anointed, will ever get to any form of immortality, but it is close enough to make no difference for the faithful.
MadCornishBiker
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7/30/2015 11:51:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 10:57:11 AM, JJ50 wrote:
I believe the word 'soul' is just another name for consciousness and ceases to be when our body dies.

Surprise, surprise, wrong again.

Soul is not what we have, it is what we are, and is the same for animals.
Juan_Pablo
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7/30/2015 12:05:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My take is that the soul (and what I mean by this is "spiritual essence") is immortal; aka eternal.

But memories are not; those are only temporary.

Yes, we live forever . . . and, no, we don't live forever.


Our basic spiritual essence will always exist in the universe, perpetually interacting with things within it. However, our memories will cease when our bodies die and break down.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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7/30/2015 2:30:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 10:55:15 PM, tstor wrote:
I would personally say that the soul is mortal. I feel like before we can dive straight into the scriptures, it is important to understand what the word "soul" really means. The word comes from Hebrew word "nephesh" and the Greek word "psykhe". What do these mean?

Well, "nephesh" means "the breathing substance or being" or "living being (with life in the blood)". "Psykhe" means "a human person, an individual"

With those meanings in mind, consider these verses:
Genesis 2:17: "man became a living soul" (KJV)
Lev. 5:2; 7:20; 23:39; Deu. 12:20; Rom 13:1: The soul can work, crave food, eat, obey laws, and touch a dead body.

Now that we have defined the soul and seen scriptures that discuss the nature of it, is it immortal? Consider these verses:
Ezekiel 18:4, 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV)
Exod. 12:15, 19; Lev. 7:20, 21, 27, 19:18: "the soul shall be cut off" (KJV)

And just for fun, we can look at one of the terrible renditions of the KJV of the Bible. In Lev. 21:11 and Numbers 6:6, we read "dead body". Some render it as "dead person". Both are incorrect. The original Hebrew uses "nephesh", so it should be "dead soul".

http://www.biblestudytools.com......
http://biblehub.com......

Soul is definitely immortal.

https://www.youtube.com...
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
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7/30/2015 2:36:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:43:39 AM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 4:23:59 AM, Dogknox wrote:

THE THREAD IS "Is the soul immortal?"
Everlasting fire and everlasting punishment makes it very clear.. The Soul is Immortal! On Topic!
tstor nice try... Jesus.. (God him self) tells you.. "You are wrong"!
Nice try? Try at what? So rather than directly addressing the scriptures I presented about the soul, you just bring up fallible accounts about the hellfire? I still fail to see how it is relevant. The Bible does not teach an eternal hellfire. As I stated, if you want to discuss this topic either create a new thread or PM me. This is not the appropriate thread for the discussion.

Matthew 25
44 "They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
45 "He will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You fail to cite the translation used. I presume it was the NIV?
These verses (Matthew 25: 41, 46) raise two good questions, one of which: Is "the eternal fire" Jesus warned of literal or symbolic? We must note that the "eternal fire" brought up by Jesus, which was recorded at Matthew 25:41, was prepared "for the devil and his angels." In all honesty, do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures such as the Devil and his angels? Or is it more reasonable to interpret that Jesus was using the term "fire" symbolically? Certainly we know "the sheep" and "the goats" mentioned in the same passage are not literal. They are word pictures that represent two types of people. (Matthew 25:32, 33) The "eternal fire" that Jesus spoke of only completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.

The other question we have to raise is: In what sense do the wicked "go away to eternal punishment"? Although most translations render the word "punishment" (which is why I asked which translation you used) at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word "kolasin" is "checking the growth of trees" or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheep-like ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goat-like ones suffer "eternal punishment", which simply means being forever cut off from life.

However, please do not continue to push the topic of the hellfire on a thread about the soul. That is unless you try to tie it in with the idea of an immortal soul, which you have yet to do.

tstor I hope all is well...
NO NOT "Hell Fire"... "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT"! which simply means being forever cut off from life.

I reply: Right you are..... "Cut Off" from God".. "Eternally:.. Forever cut off from "LIFE"!
Scriptures tell you! Jesus is "The LIFE"!

The Soul is ETERNAL..... It is Immortal BECAUSE IT SUFFERS Eternal Punishment: "CUT OFF FROM GOD-ETERNALLY.. FOREVER CUT OFF" !!!
tstor
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7/30/2015 4:00:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 2:36:02 PM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor I hope all is well...
NO NOT "Hell Fire"... "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT"! which simply means being forever cut off from life.
Exactly, as in you are dead.

I reply: Right you are..... "Cut Off" from God".. "Eternally:.. Forever cut off from "LIFE"!
Scriptures tell you! Jesus is "The LIFE"!
Yes, they are cut of from life, so they are dead.

The Soul is ETERNAL..... It is Immortal BECAUSE IT SUFFERS Eternal Punishment: "CUT OFF FROM GOD-ETERNALLY.. FOREVER CUT OFF" !!!
No, it does not suffer and it does not live. Ecclesiastes 9:10:
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (NIV)
Romans 6:7:
"because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (NIV)
If we will be unconsious in hell then it cannot be torture. If we are acquitted from sin upon death, then we would not be tortured.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
bulproof
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7/30/2015 4:05:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Dose a soul exist?
Provide evidence.
When we lived in caves, we hoped so, and created them.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dhardage
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7/30/2015 6:55:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When someone can demonstrate that the soul even exists independently of the physical body, this may be a valid question. At this point it is meaningless since no such demonstration has ever been made and most likely never will.
tstor
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7/30/2015 6:59:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:05:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
Dose a soul exist?
Provide evidence.
When we lived in caves, we hoped so, and created them.
I am implying that the soul is your body. It is not some kind of mystical element within us. It is not detachable from this physical body.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Dogknox
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7/30/2015 7:00:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 4:00:26 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 2:36:02 PM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor I hope all is well...
NO NOT "Hell Fire"... "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT"! which simply means being forever cut off from life.
Exactly, as in you are dead.

I reply: Right you are..... "Cut Off" from God".. "Eternally:.. Forever cut off from "LIFE"!
Scriptures tell you! Jesus is "The LIFE"!
Yes, they are cut of from life, so they are dead.

The Soul is ETERNAL..... It is Immortal BECAUSE IT SUFFERS Eternal Punishment: "CUT OFF FROM GOD-ETERNALLY.. FOREVER CUT OFF" !!!
No, it does not suffer and it does not live. Ecclesiastes 9:10:
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (NIV)
Romans 6:7:
"because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." (NIV)
If we will be unconsious in hell then it cannot be torture. If we are acquitted from sin upon death, then we would not be tortured.

They are cut from GOD! Death is NO more!!!! Jesus is the "LIFE" God is LIFE!
Existing in a lake of fire FOREVER is having NO life!

When I bought my bible it came in English already interpreted to English for me!!! I bought an English Bible because it was NOT written in Greek!!!

Scriptures are very clear.. IN ENGLISH!! EVERY INTERPRETATION is Ever lasting punishment!!!
What more needs to be said!
KJ21And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

ASVAnd these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

AMPThen they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.

CEVThen Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

GNVAnd these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

MSG"Then those "goats" will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep" to their eternal reward."
tstor
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7/30/2015 7:12:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:00:04 PM, Dogknox wrote:

They are cut from GOD! Death is NO more!!!! Jesus is the "LIFE" God is LIFE!
Existing in a lake of fire FOREVER is having NO life!
No, existing means you have life. Being thrown into a tormenting hellfire requires some sort of life. Stop ignoring the scriptures and take them for what they are. I don't get how you can continue to circle around the truth without ever actually finding it.

When I bought my bible it came in English already interpreted to English for me!!! I bought an English Bible because it was NOT written in Greek!!!
Which translation? There are hundreds of English Bibles.

Scriptures are very clear.. IN ENGLISH!! EVERY INTERPRETATION is Ever lasting punishment!!!
Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

What more needs to be said!
KJ21And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

ASVAnd these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

AMPThen they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.

CEVThen Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

GNVAnd these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

MSG"Then those "goats" will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep" to their eternal reward."
On surface this verse may seem to fit your interpretation, but when we reference it in light of what the rest of the Bible says it makes no sense. I have given you a few verses that confirm how the eternal hellfire makes no sense. Let's also look at Job 14:13, which reads:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (NIV)
Also we can consider Genesis 37:35:
"All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave." So his father wept for him." (NIV)
From these verses we can reasonably conclude that we will all go to the grave. Even Jesus went to the grave. This view is also in harmony with Genesis 3:19:
"for dust you are and to dust you will return." (NIV)

The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hellfire like you suggest.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
talmud
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7/30/2015 7:29:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:12:41 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 7:00:04 PM, Dogknox wrote:

They are cut from GOD! Death is NO more!!!! Jesus is the "LIFE" God is LIFE!
Existing in a lake of fire FOREVER is having NO life!
No, existing means you have life. Being thrown into a tormenting hellfire requires some sort of life. Stop ignoring the scriptures and take them for what they are. I don't get how you can continue to circle around the truth without ever actually finding it.

When I bought my bible it came in English already interpreted to English for me!!! I bought an English Bible because it was NOT written in Greek!!!
Which translation? There are hundreds of English Bibles.

Scriptures are very clear.. IN ENGLISH!! EVERY INTERPRETATION is Ever lasting punishment!!!
Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

What more needs to be said!
KJ21And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

ASVAnd these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

AMPThen they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.

CEVThen Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

GNVAnd these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

MSG"Then those "goats" will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep" to their eternal reward."
On surface this verse may seem to fit your interpretation, but when we reference it in light of what the rest of the Bible says it makes no sense. I have given you a few verses that confirm how the eternal hellfire makes no sense. Let's also look at Job 14:13, which reads:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (NIV)
Also we can consider Genesis 37:35:
"All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave." So his father wept for him." (NIV)
From these verses we can reasonably conclude that we will all go to the grave. Even Jesus went to the grave. This view is also in harmony with Genesis 3:19:
"for dust you are and to dust you will return." (NIV)

The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hellfire like you suggest. : :

You believe hell to be untrue but you won't believe the true gospel that I preach for our Creator.

Many are called but only a few were chosen to hear the voice of the Lord ( gospel ) and learn about the future and how God created everything.

I can see you were called but the next step is to listen to the voice of the Lord in order for Me to know you as a brother in the Lord. I have met over 2,000 chosen believers that heard God's voice when I preached the gospel to them this past 7 years. You are rejecting His voice because you don't know Him like you think you do.
tstor
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7/30/2015 7:33:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:29:44 PM, talmud wrote:

You believe hell to be untrue but you won't believe the true gospel that I preach for our Creator.

Many are called but only a few were chosen to hear the voice of the Lord ( gospel ) and learn about the future and how God created everything.

I can see you were called but the next step is to listen to the voice of the Lord in order for Me to know you as a brother in the Lord. I have met over 2,000 chosen believers that heard God's voice when I preached the gospel to them this past 7 years. You are rejecting His voice because you don't know Him like you think you do.
I am not rejecting any sort of voice. I have never heard any sort of voice outside of just the average person talking to me. I am firm believer that none of us can literally hear the words or voice of God. The prophets and Messiah could, but no one else. No one today can hear anything and I would wager that no one in the future can. I do not doubt that you are sincere in what you believe, but I do doubt the truthfulness of it.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
talmud
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7/30/2015 7:39:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:33:47 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 7:29:44 PM, talmud wrote:

You believe hell to be untrue but you won't believe the true gospel that I preach for our Creator.

Many are called but only a few were chosen to hear the voice of the Lord ( gospel ) and learn about the future and how God created everything.

I can see you were called but the next step is to listen to the voice of the Lord in order for Me to know you as a brother in the Lord. I have met over 2,000 chosen believers that heard God's voice when I preached the gospel to them this past 7 years. You are rejecting His voice because you don't know Him like you think you do.
I am not rejecting any sort of voice. I have never heard any sort of voice outside of just the average person talking to me. I am firm believer that none of us can literally hear the words or voice of God. The prophets and Messiah could, but no one else. No one today can hear anything and I would wager that no one in the future can. I do not doubt that you are sincere in what you believe, but I do doubt the truthfulness of it. : :

That's what My religious Jews thought, too. They believed their own interpretations of the scriptures and denied the Truth being spoken to them by God's saints starting with the first saint, Jesus.

All us saints get killed for our testimonies to the Word of God according to God's plan;

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled they holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Revelation 11
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 20
4: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Harikrish
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7/30/2015 8:53:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:39:56 PM, talmud wrote:
At 7/30/2015 7:33:47 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 7:29:44 PM, talmud wrote:

You believe hell to be untrue but you won't believe the true gospel that I preach for our Creator.

Many are called but only a few were chosen to hear the voice of the Lord ( gospel ) and learn about the future and how God created everything.

I can see you were called but the next step is to listen to the voice of the Lord in order for Me to know you as a brother in the Lord. I have met over 2,000 chosen believers that heard God's voice when I preached the gospel to them this past 7 years. You are rejecting His voice because you don't know Him like you think you do.
I am not rejecting any sort of voice. I have never heard any sort of voice outside of just the average person talking to me. I am firm believer that none of us can literally hear the words or voice of God. The prophets and Messiah could, but no one else. No one today can hear anything and I would wager that no one in the future can. I do not doubt that you are sincere in what you believe, but I do doubt the truthfulness of it. : :

That's what My religious Jews thought, too. They believed their own interpretations of the scriptures and denied the Truth being spoken to them by God's saints starting with the first saint, Jesus.

Nobody is denying the prophets in the bible. They are just rejecting your delusional claims you are spiritually well connected. You are a mentally ill homeless beggar looking for attention.

All us saints get killed for our testimonies to the Word of God according to God's plan;

You give very little reason for anyone to snuff you out. You are already human trash waiting for the garbage collector.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled they holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
10: they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11: Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Revelation 11
3: And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth.
5: And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.
6: They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7: And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

Revelation 20
4: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Odd that you quote the bible which has very little to say about you. You are just rehashing what others have said 2000 years ago. You have strong anal retention even though your memory cells are badly damaged from alcohol abuse.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
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7/30/2015 10:48:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 7:12:41 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 7:00:04 PM, Dogknox wrote:

They are cut from GOD! Death is NO more!!!! Jesus is the "LIFE" God is LIFE!
Existing in a lake of fire FOREVER is having NO life!
No, existing means you have life. Being thrown into a tormenting hellfire requires some sort of life. Stop ignoring the scriptures and take them for what they are. I don't get how you can continue to circle around the truth without ever actually finding it.

When I bought my bible it came in English already interpreted to English for me!!! I bought an English Bible because it was NOT written in Greek!!!
Which translation? There are hundreds of English Bibles.

Scriptures are very clear.. IN ENGLISH!! EVERY INTERPRETATION is Ever lasting punishment!!!
Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

What more needs to be said!
KJ21And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

ASVAnd these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

AMPThen they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.

CEVThen Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

GNVAnd these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

MSG"Then those "goats" will be herded to their eternal doom, but the "sheep" to their eternal reward."
On surface this verse may seem to fit your interpretation, but when we reference it in light of what the rest of the Bible says it makes no sense. I have given you a few verses that confirm how the eternal hellfire makes no sense. Let's also look at Job 14:13, which reads:
"If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!" (NIV)
Also we can consider Genesis 37:35:
"All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave." So his father wept for him." (NIV)
From these verses we can reasonably conclude that we will all go to the grave. Even Jesus went to the grave. This view is also in harmony with Genesis 3:19:
"for dust you are and to dust you will return." (NIV)

The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hellfire like you suggest.

Scriptures.... John 14:6 JESUS' WORDS!!
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is "THE LIFE" all peoples "IN Jesus" have LIFE!

Scriptures... Matthew 25:46 JESUS' WORDS!!
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

tstor Take your pick...All INTERPENETRATE Matthew 25:46 the same way!!!
everlasting punishment
eternal punishment
punished forever
everlasting pain
eternal doom
everlasting torment


Your words... Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

I reply: I have access to 52 translations.... ALL... Every one uses the same interpretations (above) PROVING....

tstor proving beyond any doubt... The interpreters of your "NWT" are WRONG!!! The NWT interpreters are ERRONEOUS, INACCURATE, MISGUIDED, MISTAKEN.. Out right LIARS!!! If they were NOT lying they would have interpreted the verse as all the others have!
PROVING: The EXPERT Interpretations are NOT found in the NWT!!!

Yes; The body returns to the earth but the Soul lasts forever!!!
Jesus destroyed Death,, Death is NO more!!!

Your words... The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hell fire like you suggest.

The words of Jesus.. Scriptures.. The BIBLE!!! "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Proving you are WRONG!!! I will take the words of Jesus over your words any day!! All you do is prove your ignorance!!!
tstor
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7/30/2015 11:44:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 10:48:06 PM, Dogknox wrote:

Scriptures.... John 14:6 JESUS' WORDS!!
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is "THE LIFE" all peoples "IN Jesus" have LIFE!

Scriptures... Matthew 25:46 JESUS' WORDS!!
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

tstor Take your pick...All INTERPENETRATE Matthew 25:46 the same way!!!
everlasting punishment
eternal punishment
punished forever
everlasting pain
eternal doom
everlasting torment


Your words... Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

I reply: I have access to 52 translations.... ALL... Every one uses the same interpretations (above) PROVING....

tstor proving beyond any doubt... The interpreters of your "NWT" are WRONG!!! The NWT interpreters are ERRONEOUS, INACCURATE, MISGUIDED, MISTAKEN.. Out right LIARS!!! If they were NOT lying they would have interpreted the verse as all the others have!
PROVING: The EXPERT Interpretations are NOT found in the NWT!!!

Yes; The body returns to the earth but the Soul lasts forever!!!
Jesus destroyed Death,, Death is NO more!!!

Your words... The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hell fire like you suggest.

The words of Jesus.. Scriptures.. The BIBLE!!! "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Proving you are WRONG!!! I will take the words of Jesus over your words any day!! All you do is prove your ignorance!!!
You have a funny way of using "ignorance". Try using the same measuring stick that you used on me on yourself and find out just how ignorant you really are. I guess I will start with what scholars have said on the subject:

Dr. Young in his popular Young's Analytical Concordance (p. 995) defines this word "kolasis" as "a pruning, restraining". Although Strong's Exhaustive Concordance only tells us that "kolasis" derives from the source words "kolazo" and "kolos", which means "to curtail", The New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance tells us that "kolasis" comes from "kolazo" and "kolos", as well that "kolos" means "docked" ("dock .... 1. to cut off" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary).

Next, we can look at what New Testament Greek expert W. E. Vine say about the source word (which was "kolazo") for "kolasis" in his paper An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
"kolazo primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock (from kolos, docked)." (p. 903)

An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon says that "kolazo" means "Properly, to curtail, dock, prune" (1994, p. 441)

So if you agree with the above scholars, at Matthew 25:46 it becomes clear from context that "death" (or "cutting off") is the proper rendition. Notice that "everlasting kolasis" is contrasted here with "everlasting life". Would you agree that "death" is the most accurate contrast to "life"? (Another example would be Ezek. 18:30)

Even the Presbyterian minister known as R. H. Countess has professed that "the root meaning of [kolasis] is that of `checking' in the realm of trees..." (p. 81, The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament, 1987 edition)

It becomes clearer and clearer that the Bible has no support for an eternal hellfire, which is your basis for an eternal soul (for whatever reason). And just to be clear, here are some scholarly testimonies for the NWT (for the NT as that is what we are dealing with here):

"A 2003 study by Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, of nine of "the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world," including the New American Bible, The King James Bible and The New International Version, examined several New Testament passages in which "bias is most likely to interfere with translation." For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. BeDuhn reported that the New World Translation was "not bias free", but emerged "as the most accurate of the translations compared", and thus a "remarkably good translation", adding that "most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation". BeDuhn said the introduction of the name "Jehovah" into the New Testament 237 times was "not accurate translation by the most basic principle of accuracy", and that it "violate[s] accuracy in favor of denominationally preferred expressions for God", adding that for the NWT to gain wider acceptance and prove its worth its translators might have to abandon the use of "Jehovah" in the New Testament."

"Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the New Testament in An American Translation, wrote in a letter to the Watch Tower Society: "I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify.""

"Religion writer and editor Alexander Thomson said of the NWT: "The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing. ... We heartily recommend the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published in 1950 by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.""

"Thomas Winter, an instructor of Greek at the University of Nebraska and former president of the Unitarian Church of Lincoln, considered the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to be a "highly useful aid toward the mastery of koine (and classical) Greek," adding that the translation "is thoroughly up-to-date and consistently accurate.""

You can disagree with me, that is fine, but do not make up false claims about the NWT and then not cite any sort of justification for it. The testimonies for the OT are even better. Most all issues taken with the NWT arise from them using "Jehovah" in the NT, which is only a minor thing in my books.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Dogknox
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7/31/2015 12:28:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2015 11:44:44 PM, tstor wrote:
At 7/30/2015 10:48:06 PM, Dogknox wrote:

Scriptures.... John 14:6 JESUS' WORDS!!
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is "THE LIFE" all peoples "IN Jesus" have LIFE!

Scriptures... Matthew 25:46 JESUS' WORDS!!
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

tstor Take your pick...All INTERPENETRATE Matthew 25:46 the same way!!!
everlasting punishment
eternal punishment
punished forever
everlasting pain
eternal doom
everlasting torment


Your words... Not at all. An example of a rendition that does not use "eternal punishment" is the NWT.

I reply: I have access to 52 translations.... ALL... Every one uses the same interpretations (above) PROVING....

tstor proving beyond any doubt... The interpreters of your "NWT" are WRONG!!! The NWT interpreters are ERRONEOUS, INACCURATE, MISGUIDED, MISTAKEN.. Out right LIARS!!! If they were NOT lying they would have interpreted the verse as all the others have!
PROVING: The EXPERT Interpretations are NOT found in the NWT!!!

Yes; The body returns to the earth but the Soul lasts forever!!!
Jesus destroyed Death,, Death is NO more!!!

Your words... The Bible continually point to the GRAVE, not an eternal hell fire like you suggest.

The words of Jesus.. Scriptures.. The BIBLE!!! "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Proving you are WRONG!!! I will take the words of Jesus over your words any day!! All you do is prove your ignorance!!!
You have a funny way of using "ignorance". Try using the same measuring stick that you used on me on yourself and find out just how ignorant you really are. I guess I will start with what scholars have said on the subject:

Dr. Young in his popular Young's Analytical Concordance (p. 995) defines this word "kolasis" as "a pruning, restraining". Although Strong's Exhaustive Concordance only tells us that "kolasis" derives from the source words "kolazo" and "kolos", which means "to curtail", The New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance tells us that "kolasis" comes from "kolazo" and "kolos", as well that "kolos" means "docked" ("dock .... 1. to cut off" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary).

Next, we can look at what New Testament Greek expert W. E. Vine say about the source word (which was "kolazo") for "kolasis" in his paper An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
"kolazo primarily denotes to curtail, prune, dock (from kolos, docked)." (p. 903)

An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon says that "kolazo" means "Properly, to curtail, dock, prune" (1994, p. 441)

So if you agree with the above scholars, at Matthew 25:46 it becomes clear from context that "death" (or "cutting off") is the proper rendition. Notice that "everlasting kolasis" is contrasted here with "everlasting life". Would you agree that "death" is the most accurate contrast to "life"? (Another example would be Ezek. 18:30)

Even the Presbyterian minister known as R. H. Countess has professed that "the root meaning of [kolasis] is that of `checking' in the realm of trees..." (p. 81, The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament, 1987 edition)

It becomes clearer and clearer that the Bible has no support for an eternal hellfire, which is your basis for an eternal soul (for whatever reason). And just to be clear, here are some scholarly testimonies for the NWT (for the NT as that is what we are dealing with here):

"A 2003 study by Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, of nine of "the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world," including the New American Bible, The King James Bible and The New International Version, examined several New Testament passages in which "bias is most likely to interfere with translation." For each passage, he compared the Greek text with the renderings of each English translation, and looked for biased attempts to change the meaning. BeDuhn reported that the New World Translation was "not bias free", but emerged "as the most accurate of the translations compared", and thus a "remarkably good translation", adding that "most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation". BeDuhn said the introduction of the name "Jehovah" into the New Testament 237 times was "not accurate translation by the most basic principle of accuracy", and that it "violate[s] accuracy in favor of denominationally preferred expressions for God", adding that for the NWT to gain wider acceptance and prove its worth its translators might have to abandon the use of "Jehovah" in the New Testament."

"Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the New Testament in An American Translation, wrote in a letter to the Watch Tower Society: "I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify.""

"Religion writer and editor Alexander Thomson said of the NWT: "The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing. ... We heartily recommend the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published in 1950 by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.""

"Thomas Winter, an instructor of Greek at the University of Nebraska and former president of the Unitarian Church of Lincoln, considered the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures to be a "highly useful aid toward the mastery of koine (and classical) Greek," adding that the translation "is thoroughly up-to-date and consistently accurate.""

You can disagree with me, that is fine, but do not make up false claims about the NWT and then not cite any sort of justification for it. The testimonies for the OT are even better. Most all issues taken with the NWT arise from them using "Jehovah" in the NT, which is only a minor thing in my books.

tstor thank you for your informative post. You pat yourself on the back.. ALL CONSIDERED.....

I reply: If your "Scholars" are so correct... Why does the same verse in 52 bibles NOT reflect it!!!!?? One can only assume.... The scripture interpreters are the experts!!! This is their job, to CORRECTLY interpret the Greek or what ever language INTO the correct understanding of the words "of Jesus"!

You post the words of so called experts!!! Funny how you are more then willing to post these writers but quickly reject all the words and documents from the Early Christians???! It is funny, don't you think?!

Nothing has changed... The NWT stands out as the corrupted text, being the ONLY one to interpret the verse as it did! LOGIC alone says.. The NWT is WRONG... Statistics say I am right!
tstor
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7/31/2015 12:34:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:28:07 AM, Dogknox wrote:

tstor thank you for your informative post. You pat yourself on the back.. ALL CONSIDERED.....

I reply: If your "Scholars" are so correct... Why does the same verse in 52 bibles NOT reflect it!!!!?? One can only assume.... The scripture interpreters are the experts!!! This is their job, to CORRECTLY interpret the Greek or what ever language INTO the correct understanding of the words "of Jesus"!

You post the words of so called experts!!! Funny how you are more then willing to post these writers but quickly reject all the words and documents from the Early Christians???! It is funny, don't you think?!

Nothing has changed... The NWT stands out as the corrupted text, being the ONLY one to interpret the verse as it did! LOGIC alone says.. The NWT is WRONG... Statistics say I am right!
For one, you seem to prefer the words of fallible men over what the Bible actually says, so that is why I listed the scholars and testimonies (as well, when you listed those early scholars it was off topic of the immortal soul). Secondly, the translation of "punishment" is not inherently wrong. As the word could maybe be translated to that. However, we have to compare it to the context of the verse, the context of other verses, and translate it in light of other Biblical scriptures that are accurately translated. I suggest you study the topic yourself and come to your own conclusions, which is what I did. If you still feel like it is supposed to say "eternal punishment", then fine.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)