Total Posts:19|Showing Posts:1-19
Jump to topic:

Anybody else go through this?

August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 2:58:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!

I find the passages of the bible are like an onion peel. Read over them once you sent it fit into an audience for the time it was first spoken. Come back to it 2 months later and suddenly it is speaking to you and what you need to hear today.

I read over psalms an proverbs a lot. Constantly I am reminded that I acted in a way I knew better not to.

That I let pride dictate a choice instead of humility. That I blew on a fire instead of smothering it. Plenty.

As for being progressive is not all bad. There are plenty of sects and people who repeat what thier preacher told them and rarely read the Bible themselves. So you might be surprised in how progressive the Bible encourages you to be.

How ever I think there are some things that have a common thread throughout. For instance marriage as lifelong between man and woman. Now that's not to say soo many people in the Bible did it wrong. Got divorce and multiple wives.

Or that we are people before we are born. That our souls are entwined in our flesh.

Alas you are welcome to disagree with me. I just hope you pray before reading. Allow the spirit to plant seeds you can reap later.
bobar
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 4:55:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you! : :

The saints of God who testified to the knowledge of God starting with Jesus did not have a new testament to read. After testifying to His knowledge, then God led them to the prophecies to show them that their testimonies were in perfect harmony with the bits of knowledge that the prophecies contained. This proves to us saints that our testimonies are true and that we're not false prophets who can't understand any of the prophecies.
Skynet
Posts: 674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:51:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

I have not had that experience. I am more like the other literalists you described. I find God has just the same proportion of righteous anger toward sin and grace and mercy toward sinners in the OT as the NT, and as Jesus says, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

It's important to remember that Jesus only used scripture from the OT, and so did all the Apostles until they wrote the Epistles and Gospels, which relied heavily on the OT.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bobar
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 7:05:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:51:15 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

I have not had that experience. I am more like the other literalists you described. I find God has just the same proportion of righteous anger toward sin and grace and mercy toward sinners in the OT as the NT, and as Jesus says, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

It's important to remember that Jesus only used scripture from the OT, and so did all the Apostles until they wrote the Epistles and Gospels, which relied heavily on the OT. : :

The apostles ( saints of God ) did not rely on the OT prophecies at all. They all testify to the knowledge of God by writing and speaking words that God puts in our mind. This is how we learn about the beast, how this age will end, how we'll experience life in Paradise and how God created everything. Once this knowledge is revealed to us, then we're guided to the prophecies of the OT to see if our testimonies line up with them. The prophecies contain bits of the stories that we saints have to write for God. This is enough to let us know that our testimonies are true and that we're not false prophets. False prophets do not understand any of the prophecies so when they use their own interpretations, it is easy for us saints to see that they are liars.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 1:20:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!

You had it right the first time, ABR. The gospel writers (Matthew in particular) were reading the OT and tailoring their story of Jesus to fit the Hebrew scripture. It's not prophecy (it's not even written as prophecy) but a retro-fitting of a new mythical figure to existing literature. You have it completely backwards. Do you really think the Jewish authors would prophesy someone who would found a new religion which actively persecuted Jews? It's absurd.
slo1
Posts: 4,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 2:02:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!

Do this as a thought experiment. Study the historical context of the bible prior to searching for spiritual meaning. Do you think the holy spirit in you would drive you to the exact same conclusion if you had a scholar's understanding of the historical and social context of the times versus just diving in?

You are going to be responsible setting your stage. People have claimed the holy spirit has given them insight to interpret the bible with numberology and methods to find hidden messages all the way to the other extreme of interpretation of a liberal message. Booth extremes and all interpretations in between are equally certain they have been given the grace of God to decipher the message accurately, yet the message they hold are incompatible with each other.

How will you ensure you hold the truth when you come to a conclusion about biblical interpretation and will not have been influenced by the devil's nefarious ways? Clearly many have fallen to incorrect interpretations. Your soul is counting upon you getting it right. Good luck.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:00:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 2:02:53 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!

Do this as a thought experiment. Study the historical context of the bible prior to searching for spiritual meaning. Do you think the holy spirit in you would drive you to the exact same conclusion if you had a scholar's understanding of the historical and social context of the times versus just diving in?

You are going to be responsible setting your stage. People have claimed the holy spirit has given them insight to interpret the bible with numberology and methods to find hidden messages all the way to the other extreme of interpretation of a liberal message. Booth extremes and all interpretations in between are equally certain they have been given the grace of God to decipher the message accurately, yet the message they hold are incompatible with each other.

How will you ensure you hold the truth when you come to a conclusion about biblical interpretation and will not have been influenced by the devil's nefarious ways? Clearly many have fallen to incorrect interpretations. Your soul is counting upon you getting it right. Good luck.

well that's the thing. I have been a pretty good biblical scholar in the past; read a tome of books on the Bible's origins. A lotf of revisionist theologians like John Shelby Spong. Im aware totally that the bible is not a single book nor ever was supposed to be. it consists of hundreds of old scrolls written by many authors from many different areas of old Palestine, Sumeria, Judea, etc. over the time of 1000 years or so. I know about Midrash. I know about allegory. I know about Sumerian precedents. I know about Gilgamesh. I know that Paul never met Jesus. I know that even the earliest Gospel was written a good three decades after Jesus died. I know Genesis was actually one of the LAST books written in the Torah. Do you know all this..you come across like I should learn more about the Bible's history. Anytime you want to discuss let me know.
So knowing all that and always having been a liberal on the inerrance of the Bible I have been hit of late with strong feelings that there is more to some of the OT writings than I had first thought. A deeper truth. especially in dealing with 2nd Isiah, like I said in my OP. what's your take in the Suffering Servant passages from that book?
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:04:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:20:54 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!

You had it right the first time, ABR. The gospel writers (Matthew in particular) were reading the OT and tailoring their story of Jesus to fit the Hebrew scripture. It's not prophecy (it's not even written as prophecy) but a retro-fitting of a new mythical figure to existing literature. You have it completely backwards. Do you really think the Jewish authors would prophesy someone who would found a new religion which actively persecuted Jews? It's absurd.

It does take a leap of Faith fer sure, D.M. What's your take on 2nd Isiah? The suffering servant? Did I also have that right the first time? The thing about it is that Isiah never referred to Israel before as a "He" or "HIm." then we get the whole "pierced for our transgressions" thing. IN the personal pronoun. And how are you getting that JC began a religion that persecuted Jews? The Romans did, yes. But Christians persecuting Jews? I thought it was mainly the other way around. And we always please remember that the Christians WERE Jews just like Jesus. (well until the Gentiles in the surrounding Med region converted).
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:14:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:51:15 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

I have not had that experience. I am more like the other literalists you described. I find God has just the same proportion of righteous anger toward sin and grace and mercy toward sinners in the OT as the NT, and as Jesus says, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

It's important to remember that Jesus only used scripture from the OT, and so did all the Apostles until they wrote the Epistles and Gospels, which relied heavily on the OT.

yes of course, thats all they had, the Torah. that was their entire "biblia" during the time of Jesus from 2 BC or so till his death around 32 AD. God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:15:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:55:50 AM, bobar wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you! : :

The saints of God who testified to the knowledge of God starting with Jesus did not have a new testament to read. After testifying to His knowledge, then God led them to the prophecies to show them that their testimonies were in perfect harmony with the bits of knowledge that the prophecies contained. This proves to us saints that our testimonies are true and that we're not false prophets who can't understand any of the prophecies.

Welcome back Brad!!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 5:19:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 2:58:30 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!

I find the passages of the bible are like an onion peel. Read over them once you sent it fit into an audience for the time it was first spoken. Come back to it 2 months later and suddenly it is speaking to you and what you need to hear today.

I read over psalms an proverbs a lot. Constantly I am reminded that I acted in a way I knew better not to.

That I let pride dictate a choice instead of humility. That I blew on a fire instead of smothering it. Plenty.

As for being progressive is not all bad. There are plenty of sects and people who repeat what thier preacher told them and rarely read the Bible themselves. So you might be surprised in how progressive the Bible encourages you to be.

How ever I think there are some things that have a common thread throughout. For instance marriage as lifelong between man and woman. Now that's not to say soo many people in the Bible did it wrong. Got divorce and multiple wives.

Or that we are people before we are born. That our souls are entwined in our flesh.

Alas you are welcome to disagree with me. I just hope you pray before reading. Allow the spirit to plant seeds you can reap later.

Thanks, Myk---I like the "peeling the onion" idea. It's true about the Bible. More layers and different provoked thoughts than any piece of literature I ever read. God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 6:07:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
Since I was before an angry Atheist.

You mean since a week or so ago when you were Saint_of_Me? Even then, it was clear you were no atheist, you believed in things just like other believers and had no clue about anything scientific, just like other believers.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 6:24:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:07:50 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
Since I was before an angry Atheist.

You mean since a week or so ago when you were Saint_of_Me? Even then, it was clear you were no atheist, you believed in things just like other believers and had no clue about anything scientific, just like other believers.

there is no saint on me, my angry friend. when I used to lurk here for a few weeks before joining I saw him deact his account. why would somebody do that and come back? and not just stay? you are just way off base on this. this is my first foray to DDO. as ABR. I read some of Saints past posts and just cant see where you come from here. he/she was a veteran? and worked in a mental hospital? and an atheist? LOL. I hate the military. (almost had to go though when I got in trouble when I was 10, but..) The atheist part I could relate to though. before I was Saved. also I think the Saint was a better write than me. wish I could do that better. but Im kind of done here on arguing this. call me what you want, man. whatever works,. my angry freind. (MAF..your new name!)
since we Believers know nothing and you call us dumb why are you scared to debate me? I challenged you to disprove Theistic Evolution. Let's go. I see you never debate. Or tell about yourself. you hide behind your angry Wall of Pain. Let me help you! Remember my bet? A week of prayer and I can make a difference in your life.
this last part, I doubt you'll answer but Im curious: "Danne" male of female? you didnt put your gender down on bio and its 90% of time women who do that. or maybe its a french version of our American Dan? ahh..you'll never say. the insecurity again.
I hope you find courage. Let me help! Remember I was there for so long.
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 6:36:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:24:33 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/3/2015 6:07:50 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
Since I was before an angry Atheist.

You mean since a week or so ago when you were Saint_of_Me? Even then, it was clear you were no atheist, you believed in things just like other believers and had no clue about anything scientific, just like other believers.

there is no saint on me, my angry friend.

You may want to seek professional help for your paranoia problem.

when I used to lurk here for a few weeks before joining I saw him deact his account. why would somebody do that and come back?

Most likely a mental disorder, please seek professional help.

and not just stay? you are just way off base on this. this is my first foray to DDO. as ABR. I read some of Saints past posts and just cant see where you come from here. he/she was a veteran? and worked in a mental hospital? and an atheist? LOL. I hate the military. (almost had to go though when I got in trouble when I was 10, but..) The atheist part I could relate to though. before I was Saved. also I think the Saint was a better write than me. wish I could do that better. but Im kind of done here on arguing this. call me what you want, man. whatever works,. my angry freind. (MAF..your new name!)
since we Believers know nothing and you call us dumb why are you scared to debate me? I challenged you to disprove Theistic Evolution. Let's go. I see you never debate. Or tell about yourself. you hide behind your angry Wall of Pain. Let me help you! Remember my bet? A week of prayer and I can make a difference in your life.
this last part, I doubt you'll answer but Im curious: "Danne" male of female? you didnt put your gender down on bio and its 90% of time women who do that. or maybe its a french version of our American Dan? ahh..you'll never say. the insecurity again.
I hope you find courage. Let me help! Remember I was there for so long.
God Bless.

Yes, I'm sure you'll continue to lie about your new sock puppet account, but since you did nothing else but lie in your other threads, it's highly unlikely you'll tell the truth about anything else.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Mike.com
Posts: 91
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 9:22:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Think about Isaiah 53 and go and seek out the thoughts of prominent Jewish Rabbis and there are plenty of youtube videos that go into that chapter and almost ALL of them say it refers to Israel and not a person. I have looked at lots of them as i thought that was a prophecy of Jesus too at one time many years ago. The Rabbi's will explain that you need to read Chap 52 and well as 53 to get a better idea as that is how it was written down originally.

But look closely at Isaiah 53 ..

Yet it was the Lord"s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

It was the Lord's will to crush him? Sorry, I don't buy that at all..

He will see his offspring and prolong his days?

That could not apply to Jesus as he had no children or offspring and he died a young man and so what days did he prolong?

Of course Christians will re interprete that to mean something different like Jesus's offspring being his converts etc but that cannot be so..

Also note its not about an event in the future, it was an event back then..You can see that in the tense it was used in both chapters but the Rabbi's will explain it all.

Were all the Jews hoodwinked and blinded by God because they didn't recognise it?

I say, it was God's duty to make ALL prophecy clear otherwise its no use to anyone.

God could easily have put in there it was the Messiah they were speaking of and Jesus even better....;)

I've gone the opposite way to you...Once a Christian but now a Deist...
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 9:41:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 9:22:21 PM, Mike.com wrote:
Think about Isaiah 53 and go and seek out the thoughts of prominent Jewish Rabbis and there are plenty of youtube videos that go into that chapter and almost ALL of them say it refers to Israel and not a person. I have looked at lots of them as i thought that was a prophecy of Jesus too at one time many years ago. The Rabbi's will explain that you need to read Chap 52 and well as 53 to get a better idea as that is how it was written down originally.

But look closely at Isaiah 53 ..

Yet it was the Lord"s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

It was the Lord's will to crush him? Sorry, I don't buy that at all..

He will see his offspring and prolong his days?

That could not apply to Jesus as he had no children or offspring and he died a young man and so what days did he prolong?

Of course Christians will re interprete that to mean something different like Jesus's offspring being his converts etc but that cannot be so..

Also note its not about an event in the future, it was an event back then..You can see that in the tense it was used in both chapters but the Rabbi's will explain it all.

Were all the Jews hoodwinked and blinded by God because they didn't recognise it?

I say, it was God's duty to make ALL prophecy clear otherwise its no use to anyone.

God could easily have put in there it was the Messiah they were speaking of and Jesus even better....;)

I've gone the opposite way to you...Once a Christian but now a Deist...

Hey Mike! good to see ya.

you make a great point about the offspring. (ironic: Im listening to the band the Offspring right now, greatest hits! LOL. Love 'em!) And yeah, the tenses on time do tend to change in the passage. but they do that in a good deal of OT stories.
Interesting that a rabbi interpreted this. well, remember what Jews think of Jesus! LOL. that He wasn't the promised Savior. Just another human prophet or holy man. And a sort of trouble maker & rabble rouser. I could go find some Christian apologists links who say different that the Rabbis. But Im not gonna do that, we both know they its easy to find differing ideas on anything in the Bile!
thanks for your reply, bro. God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 3:07:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:04:48 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:20:54 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!

You had it right the first time, ABR. The gospel writers (Matthew in particular) were reading the OT and tailoring their story of Jesus to fit the Hebrew scripture. It's not prophecy (it's not even written as prophecy) but a retro-fitting of a new mythical figure to existing literature. You have it completely backwards. Do you really think the Jewish authors would prophesy someone who would found a new religion which actively persecuted Jews? It's absurd.

It does take a leap of Faith fer sure, D.M. What's your take on 2nd Isiah? The suffering servant? Did I also have that right the first time?

Clearly the gospel writer(s) had read it in the Septuagint and modeled some aspects of the fable of Jesus on that passage (amongst many, many others). There is no such thing as prophecy, ABR. Quantum uncertainty tells us that the future is yet to be written. If you accept prophecy then you accept predetermination. That does away with free will. Is that really what you believe?

The thing about it is that Isiah never referred to Israel before as a "He" or "HIm." then we get the whole "pierced for our transgressions" thing. IN the personal pronoun.

A literary device. Remember the Jews were a subjugated people. Texts could get into the wrong hands and then there would be hell to pay for the author. Therefore a lot of the Jewish scripture is written in code where they knew what was being referred to but an outsider would have difficulty proving anything.

And how are you getting that JC began a religion that persecuted Jews? The Romans did, yes. But Christians persecuting Jews?

Are you completely unaware of early Christian history? The proto-Christians were the Taliban of their day.

http://www.heretication.info...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

I would commend a film named "Agora" (https://en.wikipedia.org...) to you if you want a graphic illustration of what happened in Alexandria around the time that Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire. It wasn't a pretty picture. The Christians even had their own para-military unit, the Parabalani:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

I thought it was mainly the other way around.

You get that from biblical sources and it is historically unreliable. The early Christians had a persecution complex. In fact, apart from a few brief episodes, they were reasonably tolerated by both the Jews (since Christianity was a bastard offshoot of Judaism anyway) and the Roman authorities.

And we always please remember that the Christians WERE Jews just like Jesus. (well until the Gentiles in the surrounding Med region converted).

No, Jews were Jews and practiced Judaism. Jesus was not a Christian. Neither was Mary. She must have fainted when told she would be bearing a son for God. That would have been a horrendous blasphemy to her. Lol. After the destruction of Jerusalem and their banishment resulting in the Jewish diaspora, that is when some Jews began moving away from their original faith and customs and that's when Christianity was fully born because they had to make it palatable to their gentile neighbours.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,011
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 4:44:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 1:35:29 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
My Christian Brethren......although Im a recently-Saved Christian I've always thought of myself as a Liberal or Progressive type of Believer. that mean I haven't ever really taken the Bible to be the Literal & Inerrant word of God. mainly in some of the Hebrew Bible--the Torah. The OT. but recently Ive been reading more of it. I was always one who spent like 90% of my reading with the NT. And it has been slowly dawning on me that more is there in Truth than I firs thought. Some of the stories and Biblical prophecies especially from Isiah and Ezekiel have been hitting me hard. I always thought 2nd Isiah--the Suffering Servant--was not about foretelling Jesus but the author was speaking of the Nation of Israe. But now I think it IS prophecy!!
So I,m wondering if anybody else went through his learning curve as me? since I know most Christians begin being literalists, maybe from chidlhood and then backslide a bit to think as a progresive Christian. That alot of the OT is allegoril and not real. (that is the Christians who change, they tend to progress like this. Some of course always cling to their literalist views. So...can anybody relate to what Im going through? Going from a "liberal" to more of a literlist. I think maybe since I was only saved 15 mos. ago this means God is thinking I am now ready for the "harder" and more difficult truths. he just didnt' want to give me too much to chew on when he first Saved me. Since I was before an angry Atheist.
Thank you and God Bless you!

Isaiah lived 700 years before Jesus. The last thing the Jews of his generation needed was a prophesy that would be fulfilled 700 years later. Their condition was more immediate.

"Isaiah the prophet lived in Jerusalem about 2700 years ago, during the time in which the Assyrian Empire conquered the northern part of the Jewish homeland.

Jesus had no evidence he was a messiah. He was a carpenters son. His belief in his messianic role comes late in his ministry which even confused his disciples who didn't believe him.
Jesus quoted Isaiah and Daniel to authenticate his claims he was fulfilling a prophesy. In the absence of proof, Jesus was tried,convicted and put to death for blasphemy.
Deuteronomy 18: 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

"Even after Jesus' resurrection, he chided his disciples for being foolish and slow of heart to believe (Luke 24:25). "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your minds?" (verse 38). They were full of joy and amazement, but still did not believe (verse 41). They even worshiped him, but some still doubted (Matthew 28:17)."