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Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Heathcliff
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8/3/2015 3:44:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Recently, a friend of mine engaged in an informal debate on Facebook as to whether God is culpable for Adam and Eve's Fall. We have decided to post a "fairly" unedited version of what occurred on here for DDO members to comment on and decide. I apologize for the considerable length, but this took place over the span of two hours.

Adam and Eve Discussion:

Theist: It's not God's fault that the fruit was eaten.
Especially considering the fact that they could have eaten any other fruit and were warned of the consequences.
And the tree itself is not evil

Me: It is his fault when he knows with absolute certainty that his creation will eat it

Theist: 1. You are saying that the tree itself is evil. That's like saying fire is evil. But it depends on what purpose you use it for. If you use fire to burn people to death, then the USAGE of it is wrong. Likewise, if the fruit is EATEN, then the usage of it is wrong. Just because good things can be used for wrong reasons does not mean the things themselves are evil.
2. But He Himself did not make them eat it. They ate the fruit out of their volition. He knew, but He warned them, so He is not liable for the damages.

Me: 1. The tree has no other purpose, fire does. 2. Here's a similar scenario: if you place a poisoned cookie in front of a child and tell this child not to eat it or they will die, but you know that said child most certainly will eat it, are you not in part responsible for this child's death?

Theist: 1. How do you know the tree has no other purpose? God could have created it for purposes beyond your comprehension. To say otherwise is to claim omniscience, and you'd have the burden of proof to show that it no other purpose. This would be an impossible BOP for you.
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.

Me: 1. Within the confines of the text, no other purpose is given and this is the only evidence we can draw from. You can't make speculations that it had other purposes when you have no evidence to support that.
2. Adam and Eve were void of any understanding of right from wrong since knew not what good and evil were, they could not possibly understand morality

Theist: 1. You are committing "an argument from silence" fallacy. Just because the surrounding text does not mention it does not mean there was no purpose. Deuteronomy 29:29 says that God keeps some things to Himself in a secretive manner.
2. That is irrelevant. They were still capable enough to understand the significance of obeying God's commands, which children are incapable of doing due to their undeveloped brains. You don't need to understand complex morality/ethics to not eat a fruit.

Theist: It's not rocket science, you know.

Me: No, but they should not be judged on a moral system then if they didn't understand it

Theist: No, at the time, they were only judged for disobeying God's command of eating it.
Later on, they developed a sense of morality afterwards, so then they were judged afterwards.

Me: If there is no law, then the only judgment must be on a moral basis

Theist: Well, the moral compass was written in their hearts after they ate the fruit. After the fall, they were judged based on their consciences, and that is just.
But before, they were only judged based on the decision they made
about eating it

Me: They can't be judged if they lack the knowledge as to why it's bad

Theist: They don't have to know why it's bad. It was their fault for not trusting their creator. You know it's bad for kids to not trust their parents when they say something is bad. Same concept here.
Creator*

Me: Parents won't kill you over it. And parents would not create the very poison that will kill you

Theist: "Parents won't kill you over it."
God did not kill them over it either. He offered redemption from the consequences.
"parents would not create the very poison that will kill you"
Parents would not do this for children, but once the kids are adults, then the children would be responsible for their mistakes.

Me: Parents don't judge their adult kids for eating poison. They fight to save their life. And God let their sin pass on to their children. What's fair about that?

Theist: "They fight to save their life."
Jesus Christ died on the cross so that sinners may be saved.

Me: Not for Adam and Eve, they were already dead

Theist: Adam and Eve were still able to get saved by believing in God. Abraham believed God and he was justified (James 2).
That way they would be saved by Jesus' death in the future.
You know, Jesus went to sheol in the three days between His death and resurrection to get the OT saints
that believed

Me: Believe what? They knew who God was. The prick that made a poisoned fruit for them

Theist: If I told you not to play with a bag of asbestos and you still played with it, is it my fault even though I put it there?

Me: It's your fault if you know I will play with it and die. You could just not make it and let me live

Theist: OK, but in this case, I would have warned you that you would die.
I would be responsible if you were mentally handicapped or if you a little kid, but you are not either of those types of people.
If you are a fully mature adult, then you are capable of making your own choices and accepting the responsibility for them.
I don't see why it's hard to see this.

Me: I don't see why a good responsible adult would put a bag of asbestos in front of me if you know it will kill me
Regardless of how old I am, you are pretty evil to give me a bag of poison knowing I will die

Theist: I know it WILL KILL you, but only if you are IRRESPONSIBLE with it. if you use your senses, then you would be fine.
Also, I am not GIVING the bag of asbestos TO you. It is just saying in one place in a stationary manner, and you don't even have to approach it. Likewise, the fruit was just staying in ONE place, and they did not have to touch it out of all the fruits they could have toyed with.
I am not the one forcing you to touch the bag. You are doing that out of your volition. If you go before a judge in a court case, you'd know that any judge would be reasonable enough to say that it would not be my fault if warnings are given.

Me: And since you KNOW it will kill me, why not be a good guy and just not make it or put it anywhere in my vicinity
No, a judge would hold you responsible for knowing it will kill me and still putting it near me

Theist: Because the asbestos would have to be in a specific area for other purposes such as construction and such? Also, I wouldn't be morally culpable of wrongdoing if warnings are given, EVEN if the bag is there. If I put the bag a million miles away, that would be extra cautious of me, but it's not necessary for me to be morally blameless if I clearly reiterated the dangers of it.
A judge would only hold me responsible if you were somehow COERCED to toy with the bag, If you did it out of your volition, then its your fault.
If a parent gives his able-bodied (both mentally and physically normal) son a car, and he crashes it and hurts himself, is it the parent's fault? No. The parent may know the potential dangers of it, but the car crash is still done by the volition of the son.

(Continued below).
Heathcliff
Posts: 26
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8/3/2015 3:47:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
(Continued from Above)

Me: We know of no other purpose for the tree, so again we can't conclude other purposes we have no evidence for. And since the snake manipulated Eve, I suppose this asbestos also has a shady construction worker that tells me it won't harm me. You know this construction worker will tell me this and you just let it happen.

Theist: But we know that God creates everything for a logical purpose. Just because we do not know the purpose does not mean the purpose does not exist.
Also, you are supposed to listen to the boss of the construction site, not some low level construction worker who could mislead you into doing other malicious stuff.

Me: Why would you employ a shady worker that you know will lead me to my death?

Theist: I am sorry if this sounds like a trite answer, but once again, the shady worker has other purposes for accomplishing the employer's will, but that does not mean the shady worker had to be listened to in this case.

Me: Satan had no will for God to use except to harm us.

Theist: No, God has purposes for Satan and his demons. He says that He uses evil for good purposes (Genesis 50).

Me: And no, you don't know that God has a logical purpose for everything.

Theist: But God is perfect, so He has a logical purpose for everything..

Me: You're speculating again. Why would God ever use evil when he has multiple other ways to do something

Theist: I am not speculating. Deuteronomy 32:4 says that God's works are perfect.

Me: If I can do ANYTHING, then I would never use evil

Theist: Because that must be best choice out of all the choices God could have made.

Me: Just because Deuteronomy says that, does not mean it's true
Theist: Yeah but we are debating about the Genesis story, so we have to assume that Deuteronomy is true for the sake of the argument.
we are assuming that the fall happened
and we are debating about the "why" part of the fall
So, of course I have to rely on Deuteronomy 32:4

Me: And I am contending that this God is culpable in the genesis story. And even if this God says he does everything perfect, doesn't mean it's true. Just as an accused criminal says he never did anything wrong

Theist: But if you are truly talking about the God of the Bible, then we must go by the definition of God as outlined in the Bible.
1. We are using the Bible story to make this discussion. 2. The Bible is the very book that defines God. 3. The Bible defines God as holy, just, and perfect. So, if you are not saying God's ways are not perfect, then you truly are not talking about the God of the Bible. You are talking about something else.

Me: There is no reason to assume the Deuteronomy verse is true if this God in this book did something wrong
See, if there was some malpractice, then the rest of the book can't be trusted

Theist: Well, in this case, the tree could have been a test of loyalty.
A test they failed.
It's not the teacher's fault if the student did not heed by his words and failed.
If the student listened to the teacher, then good for him.
But no, that wasn't the case.

Me: So how is Adam and Eve suppose to know to be loyal to God instead of the snake?

Theist: Because Adam and Eve know that they were created by God, not some malicious snake who is telling them to doubt the very Creator.

Me: Adam and Eve don't fully know that. It could have been the snake and God was lying for all they know.
But that's speculation, so a better question is why did God give them a test he knows they will fail

Theist: I don't know why, but that is not relevant. The test was NOT IMPOSSIBLE. If it was, then yes, that would be very wrong, but they had the access to entirety of the paradise. They had the privilege of being in God's DIRECT presence, yet they failed.
to the entirety*
It was a reasonable test.

Me: It's not a test when you know the outcome

Theist:
For Adam and Eve, it was a test because they themselves did not know the outcome. For God, nothing is a surprise for He knows everything in the future.

Me:
God set it up, it must be his test. Adam and Eve had no choice but to participate

Theist:
Who said they had to participate? They could have eaten any other fruit. They had so many other choices.

Me:
They had to participate in the test of "will you eat or not eat"
They never signed up for proving their loyalty
Why should they have to?
Would you like it if your parents put you in a life or death test to prove your loyalty

And that is how it ended. Comments anyone?
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/3/2015 3:57:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.

He failed before this but this is the clincher, poor thing doesn't even know what an adult is.
Game over.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Heathcliff
Posts: 26
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8/3/2015 3:59:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 3:57:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.


He failed before this but this is the clincher, poor thing doesn't even know what an adult is.
Game over.

Yes, I know what you mean, sir. Just about every child knows not to jump in front of a train.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/3/2015 4:26:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 3:59:24 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
At 8/3/2015 3:57:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.


He failed before this but this is the clincher, poor thing doesn't even know what an adult is.
Game over.

Yes, I know what you mean, sir. Just about every child knows not to jump in front of a train.
Well no.
Children are taught not to jump in front of a train, children are taught obedience, children are taught right from wrong, any parent knows that obedience is in no way innate.
An adult becomes an adult by growing through many stages of life, learning and experiencing, those two did no such thing and were therefore not adults.
Pretty simple.
The alleged all knowing god in that fairytale never bothered to teach those children anything, much less obedience, I contend that not only is he not all knowing but in is a know nothing.
He deliberately doesn't equip them with a knowledge of obedience and disobedience and then punishes them and their offspring for being disobedient.
Not only stupid beyond measure but unjust beyond compare.
Lucky it's only a fairytale.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Heathcliff
Posts: 26
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8/3/2015 4:28:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:26:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/3/2015 3:59:24 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
At 8/3/2015 3:57:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.


He failed before this but this is the clincher, poor thing doesn't even know what an adult is.
Game over.

Yes, I know what you mean, sir. Just about every child knows not to jump in front of a train.
Well no.
Children are taught not to jump in front of a train, children are taught obedience, children are taught right from wrong, any parent knows that obedience is in no way innate.
An adult becomes an adult by growing through many stages of life, learning and experiencing, those two did no such thing and were therefore not adults.
Yes, indeed. Good point.
Pretty simple.
The alleged all knowing god in that fairytale never bothered to teach those children anything, much less obedience, I contend that not only is he not all knowing but in is a know nothing.
He deliberately doesn't equip them with a knowledge of obedience and disobedience and then punishes them and their offspring for being disobedient.
Not only stupid beyond measure but unjust beyond compare.
Lucky it's only a fairytale.
Agreed!
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 4:37:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 3:44:19 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
Recently, a friend of mine engaged in an informal debate on Facebook as to whether God is culpable for Adam and Eve's Fall. We have decided to post a "fairly" unedited version of what occurred on here for DDO members to comment on and decide. I apologize for the considerable length, but this took place over the span of two hours.

Adam and Eve Discussion:

Theist: It's not God's fault that the fruit was eaten.
Especially considering the fact that they could have eaten any other fruit and were warned of the consequences.
And the tree itself is not evil

Me: It is his fault when he knows with absolute certainty that his creation will eat it

Theist: 1. You are saying that the tree itself is evil. That's like saying fire is evil. But it depends on what purpose you use it for. If you use fire to burn people to death, then the USAGE of it is wrong. Likewise, if the fruit is EATEN, then the usage of it is wrong. Just because good things can be used for wrong reasons does not mean the things themselves are evil.
2. But He Himself did not make them eat it. They ate the fruit out of their volition. He knew, but He warned them, so He is not liable for the damages.

Me: 1. The tree has no other purpose, fire does. 2. Here's a similar scenario: if you place a poisoned cookie in front of a child and tell this child not to eat it or they will die, but you know that said child most certainly will eat it, are you not in part responsible for this child's death?

Theist: 1. How do you know the tree has no other purpose? God could have created it for purposes beyond your comprehension. To say otherwise is to claim omniscience, and you'd have the burden of proof to show that it no other purpose. This would be an impossible BOP for you.
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.

Me: 1. Within the confines of the text, no other purpose is given and this is the only evidence we can draw from. You can't make speculations that it had other purposes when you have no evidence to support that.
2. Adam and Eve were void of any understanding of right from wrong since knew not what good and evil were, they could not possibly understand morality

Theist: 1. You are committing "an argument from silence" fallacy. Just because the surrounding text does not mention it does not mean there was no purpose. Deuteronomy 29:29 says that God keeps some things to Himself in a secretive manner.
2. That is irrelevant. They were still capable enough to understand the significance of obeying God's commands, which children are incapable of doing due to their undeveloped brains. You don't need to understand complex morality/ethics to not eat a fruit.

Theist: It's not rocket science, you know.

Me: No, but they should not be judged on a moral system then if they didn't understand it

Theist: No, at the time, they were only judged for disobeying God's command of eating it.
Later on, they developed a sense of morality afterwards, so then they were judged afterwards.

Me: If there is no law, then the only judgment must be on a moral basis

Theist: Well, the moral compass was written in their hearts after they ate the fruit. After the fall, they were judged based on their consciences, and that is just.
But before, they were only judged based on the decision they made
about eating it

Me: They can't be judged if they lack the knowledge as to why it's bad

Theist: They don't have to know why it's bad. It was their fault for not trusting their creator. You know it's bad for kids to not trust their parents when they say something is bad. Same concept here.
Creator*

Me: Parents won't kill you over it. And parents would not create the very poison that will kill you

Theist: "Parents won't kill you over it."
God did not kill them over it either. He offered redemption from the consequences.
"parents would not create the very poison that will kill you"
Parents would not do this for children, but once the kids are adults, then the children would be responsible for their mistakes.

Me: Parents don't judge their adult kids for eating poison. They fight to save their life. And God let their sin pass on to their children. What's fair about that?

Theist: "They fight to save their life."
Jesus Christ died on the cross so that sinners may be saved.

Me: Not for Adam and Eve, they were already dead

Theist: Adam and Eve were still able to get saved by believing in God. Abraham believed God and he was justified (James 2).
That way they would be saved by Jesus' death in the future.
You know, Jesus went to sheol in the three days between His death and resurrection to get the OT saints
that believed

Me: Believe what? They knew who God was. The prick that made a poisoned fruit for them

Theist: If I told you not to play with a bag of asbestos and you still played with it, is it my fault even though I put it there?

Me: It's your fault if you know I will play with it and die. You could just not make it and let me live

Theist: OK, but in this case, I would have warned you that you would die.
I would be responsible if you were mentally handicapped or if you a little kid, but you are not either of those types of people.
If you are a fully mature adult, then you are capable of making your own choices and accepting the responsibility for them.
I don't see why it's hard to see this.

Me: I don't see why a good responsible adult would put a bag of asbestos in front of me if you know it will kill me
Regardless of how old I am, you are pretty evil to give me a bag of poison knowing I will die

Theist: I know it WILL KILL you, but only if you are IRRESPONSIBLE with it. if you use your senses, then you would be fine.
Also, I am not GIVING the bag of asbestos TO you. It is just saying in one place in a stationary manner, and you don't even have to approach it. Likewise, the fruit was just staying in ONE place, and they did not have to touch it out of all the fruits they could have toyed with.
I am not the one forcing you to touch the bag. You are doing that out of your volition. If you go before a judge in a court case, you'd know that any judge would be reasonable enough to say that it would not be my fault if warnings are given.

Me: And since you KNOW it will kill me, why not be a good guy and just not make it or put it anywhere in my vicinity
No, a judge would hold you responsible for knowing it will kill me and still putting it near me

Theist: Because the asbestos would have to be in a specific area for other purposes such as construction and such? Also, I wouldn't be morally culpable of wrongdoing if warnings are given, EVEN if the bag is there. If I put the bag a million miles away, that would be extra cautious of me, but it's not necessary for me to be morally blameless if I clearly reiterated the dangers of it.
A judge would only hold me responsible if you were somehow COERCED to toy with the bag, If you did it out of your volition, then its your fault.
If a parent gives his able-bodied (both mentally and physically normal) son a car, and he crashes it and hurts himself, is it the parent's fault? No. The parent may know the potential dangers of it, but the car crash is still done by the volition of the son.

(Continued below).

God is the creator of all things, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that deceived all his people from understanding what the tree of life means.
Heathcliff
Posts: 26
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8/3/2015 4:42:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"God is the creator of all things, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that deceived all his people from understanding what the tree of life means."

Bobar, that tells me very little of anything.
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 4:52:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:42:10 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
"God is the creator of all things, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that deceived all his people from understanding what the tree of life means."

Bobar, that tells me very little of anything. : :

It means God is responsible for everything.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/3/2015 4:56:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:42:10 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
"God is the creator of all things, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that deceived all his people from understanding what the tree of life means."

Bobar, that tells me very little of anything.

Heath, don't pay much attention to bobar AKA bog, it's about his 20th incarnation since he was banned, he'll be banned again shortly and will no doubt re emerge as another nutcase. BTW he was murdered in Jan. this year, according to him.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 5:10:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:56:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/3/2015 4:42:10 AM, Heathcliff wrote:
"God is the creator of all things, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that deceived all his people from understanding what the tree of life means."

Bobar, that tells me very little of anything.

Heath, don't pay much attention to bobar AKA bog, it's about his 20th incarnation since he was banned, he'll be banned again shortly and will no doubt re emerge as another nutcase. BTW he was murdered in Jan. this year, according to him. : :

Heathcliff has his own mind, bulproof. When you were banned, I spoke against your banishment and was hoping you would come back in full force like you were before you were banned. Now you're a fool.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/3/2015 6:32:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has.
Citation please. Adults get that way by experience, learning. There was no learning mentioned in that story.
The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only:
It's the christians who claim that evil is the direct consequence of free will.
There is no choice, only inevitable actions.
The choice between good and evil is taught, but not in that story.
If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system.
If you think that behaving the "right" way is completely innate then you don't understand humanity
All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.
Really poor understanding of the story on your part.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 6:59:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability. : :

If you understood how God created everything, then you would understand why God created good and evil in this world to totally deceive His people from knowing their true created existence within the tree of life, the invisible kingdom that no man will ever see.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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8/3/2015 7:23:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

The God of the Bible is very oblivious. He is described to be an omniscient being, yet multiple times he commands angles to do his watching for him. This is evident in the Bible, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when god 'suspects' people are committing sinful acts but sends two angels to 'check it out' and report back to him with the intel. In the story of Adam and Eve, not only does god create a tree of forbidden fruit, place it in the middle of the garden in easy access to his creations, he also creates a devious serpent to tempt them to eat the fruit. And when the serpent does exactly that, god is no where to be found. And after they do eat the fruit, god is somehow surprised, not because he immediately knew they ate the fruit, but because they realized they were naked and he noticed that they were covering themselves.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

Whether or not Adam and Eve were created with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong is debatable. One thing is certain, they definitely did not have free will. If god knows everything, before it even happens at that, then he knew they would "disobey" him. That is not 'free will' and if he is all-knowing, that was planned.
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 7:36:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:23:09 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

The God of the Bible is very oblivious. He is described to be an omniscient being, yet multiple times he commands angles to do his watching for him. This is evident in the Bible, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when god 'suspects' people are committing sinful acts but sends two angels to 'check it out' and report back to him with the intel. In the story of Adam and Eve, not only does god create a tree of forbidden fruit, place it in the middle of the garden in easy access to his creations, he also creates a devious serpent to tempt them to eat the fruit. And when the serpent does exactly that, god is no where to be found. And after they do eat the fruit, god is somehow surprised, not because he immediately knew they ate the fruit, but because they realized they were naked and he noticed that they were covering themselves.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

Whether or not Adam and Eve were created with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong is debatable. One thing is certain, they definitely did not have free will. If god knows everything, before it even happens at that, then he knew they would "disobey" him. That is not 'free will' and if he is all-knowing, that was planned. : :

God created everything before it begin to play out in the minds of His created beings. There's nothing God can do to stop this program He planned, designed and spoke into existence.

However, this program will change completely after all His people and beasts have died in this first age. In Paradise, we will no longer understand what death is or decay, disease, destruction, sadness, hate, anger, jealousy, etc.

All God's characters will get new bodies in Paradise that will never be used to deceive them from their true created existence as information within a program.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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8/3/2015 7:51:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:36:09 AM, bobar wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:23:09 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

The God of the Bible is very oblivious. He is described to be an omniscient being, yet multiple times he commands angles to do his watching for him. This is evident in the Bible, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when god 'suspects' people are committing sinful acts but sends two angels to 'check it out' and report back to him with the intel. In the story of Adam and Eve, not only does god create a tree of forbidden fruit, place it in the middle of the garden in easy access to his creations, he also creates a devious serpent to tempt them to eat the fruit. And when the serpent does exactly that, god is no where to be found. And after they do eat the fruit, god is somehow surprised, not because he immediately knew they ate the fruit, but because they realized they were naked and he noticed that they were covering themselves.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

Whether or not Adam and Eve were created with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong is debatable. One thing is certain, they definitely did not have free will. If god knows everything, before it even happens at that, then he knew they would "disobey" him. That is not 'free will' and if he is all-knowing, that was planned. : :

God created everything before it begin to play out in the minds of His created beings. There's nothing God can do to stop this program He planned, designed and spoke into existence.

So the God of the Bible is not omnipotent. He can create a universe, then intervene when he feels like it. That doesn't sound like a god. God is supposed to be perfect, all knowing, all powerful. But the God you describe sounds flawed, almost human-like. I wonder why...

However, this program will change completely after all His people and beasts have died in this first age. In Paradise, we will no longer understand what death is or decay, disease, destruction, sadness, hate, anger, jealousy, etc.

Yeah because we will be dead, no longer conscious or in existence. I wouldn't call that paradise, but that's the inevitable truth.

All God's characters will get new bodies in Paradise that will never be used to deceive them from their true created existence as information within a program.

Well that's your theory but as far as we know the only body we have after death is the one buried under ground until it eventually decomposes.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,861
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8/3/2015 7:59:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:23:09 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

The God of the Bible is very oblivious. He is described to be an omniscient being, yet multiple times he commands angles to do his watching for him. This is evident in the Bible, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when god 'suspects' people are committing sinful acts but sends two angels to 'check it out' and report back to him with the intel. In the story of Adam and Eve, not only does god create a tree of forbidden fruit, place it in the middle of the garden in easy access to his creations, he also creates a devious serpent to tempt them to eat the fruit. And when the serpent does exactly that, god is no where to be found. And after they do eat the fruit, god is somehow surprised, not because he immediately knew they ate the fruit, but because they realized they were naked and he noticed that they were covering themselves.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

Whether or not Adam and Eve were created with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong is debatable. One thing is certain, they definitely did not have free will. If god knows everything, before it even happens at that, then he knew they would "disobey" him. That is not 'free will' and if he is all-knowing, that was planned.

You have made some logical and some illogical assertions. Lets just go with the illogical ones as a quick example of how you assume the meaning is only one possible meaning as opposed to how I will demonstrate that in real world terms your conclusion is incorrect, or possibly incorrect.
A few verses in the Bible where God questions Adam and Eve might demonstrate other possible reasons and how they don't represent "surprise" as you interpret them to mean.
1) Who told you thou were naked?
2) Where are you?
It doesn't follow logically that asking these questions therefore means God doesn't know the answer. I.e. is "surprised". It could be analogous to a parent asking a child a question they know the answer to just to see whether they will or will not lie. Or knowing that they will lie and that lying is a recently acquired ability and now becoming aware of what a lie is could be the lesson that was intended to be taught. Knowing good and evil doesn't therefore mean one has the wisdom to adapt properly to this knowledge. For all we know, evil and good must exist but acquiring the wisdom of how to digest them must be learned in order to insure a default particular need.
bobar
Posts: 41
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8/3/2015 8:04:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:51:26 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:36:09 AM, bobar wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:23:09 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

The God of the Bible is very oblivious. He is described to be an omniscient being, yet multiple times he commands angles to do his watching for him. This is evident in the Bible, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when god 'suspects' people are committing sinful acts but sends two angels to 'check it out' and report back to him with the intel. In the story of Adam and Eve, not only does god create a tree of forbidden fruit, place it in the middle of the garden in easy access to his creations, he also creates a devious serpent to tempt them to eat the fruit. And when the serpent does exactly that, god is no where to be found. And after they do eat the fruit, god is somehow surprised, not because he immediately knew they ate the fruit, but because they realized they were naked and he noticed that they were covering themselves.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

Whether or not Adam and Eve were created with the ability to distinguish between right and wrong is debatable. One thing is certain, they definitely did not have free will. If god knows everything, before it even happens at that, then he knew they would "disobey" him. That is not 'free will' and if he is all-knowing, that was planned. : :

God created everything before it begin to play out in the minds of His created beings. There's nothing God can do to stop this program He planned, designed and spoke into existence.

So the God of the Bible is not omnipotent. He can create a universe, then intervene when he feels like it. That doesn't sound like a god. God is supposed to be perfect, all knowing, all powerful. But the God you describe sounds flawed, almost human-like. I wonder why...

However, this program will change completely after all His people and beasts have died in this first age. In Paradise, we will no longer understand what death is or decay, disease, destruction, sadness, hate, anger, jealousy, etc.

Yeah because we will be dead, no longer conscious or in existence. I wouldn't call that paradise, but that's the inevitable truth.

All God's characters will get new bodies in Paradise that will never be used to deceive them from their true created existence as information within a program.

Well that's your theory but as far as we know the only body we have after death is the one buried under ground until it eventually decomposes. : :

Our bodies and the visible objects of this universe are not real at all. They are illusions that each created being observes and experiences with his senses, tha_t aren't real either. We were created as information similar to information in a program found on a CD-ROM but in the form of invisible waves.

From these invisible waves, particles are formed as we observe them and they form patterns that form into bigger illusions that we observe as a body, water, mountains, rocks, trees, buildings, etc. All of these things are illusions that were born in the thoughts of our Creator before He spoke His thoughts into a computing language called waves ( wavelengths of energy ) where a program called Eternal Life exists. This program is being played out in our minds and we experience life.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/3/2015 8:07:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:59:33 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
For all we know, evil and good must exist but acquiring the wisdom of how to digest them must be learned in order to insure a default particular need.
It's just too bad the god in the story didn't know that and, in fact, punished billions of people for that lack of knowledge.
The alleged god in that story shows nothing that should convince anyone that it is a god.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
slo1
Posts: 4,308
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8/3/2015 2:17:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:20:37 AM, Skynet wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:52:33 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is God Responsible for Adam and Eve's Fall?

Answer - Yes. God, as described in the Bible, is supposedly an all-knowing, omnipotent being who created the universe and everything in it, which means he is personally responsible for everything that happens in existence. He knows what will happen before it happens, yet still allows it to take place.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the only plausible explanation for this is that god knew they would disobey him, and simply did nothing to prevent it or planned it from the beginning. If this is not the case, then he is neither all-knowing nor all powerful, and is therefore not worthy of being called god or he simply does not exist.

This is one of the many flaws in Bible. God is portrayed as completely omniscient yet acts completely oblivious to everything that happens, that he also allows in the first place.

I don't know where you get the idea that he acts completely oblivious. He's omniscient and claims to see all things done in secret.

No, the theist in the above debate did not make a very sound argument. But Adam and Eve were created as self-willed adults with conscious choices, and a great deal of creative license, just as God has. The argument that sin was inevitable hinges on the belief that humans are slaves to instinct only: There is no choice, only inevitable actions. If that were the case, there would be no basis for any outrage against actions of others, and no good logical basis for any justice system. All crimes would merely be an instinctive inevitability.

You are exactly right. God did not give Adam and Eve knowledge of good or evil. They were in effect animals asked to behave in a certain way which was in counter to their instinct. If you don't even understand that disobeying God is bad and not good then it is God's fault for not giving them any ability to follow his command. A child with a parent is receiving very many social cues to train them to obey. It takes time, energy, and effort to give a child the knowledge to obey.

So the question becomes, did they even have the ability to follow God's command seeing how they have very limited experience with God and no learning experiences with God.

Our justice system has notions such as insanity pleas where we accept there are instances where a person is not in control thus they get lessor sentences and we remove them from society so nobody else gets hurt rather than as a punishment. If our judicial system was based upon God's judicial system, we would be barbaric and unethical by most's standards.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/3/2015 5:56:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 3:57:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
2. But Adam and Eve were not children. They were grown adults with full capabilities of reasoning. If you put a child near a railway station, and you told the child not to jump in front of the train, then you'd be guilty because children can't reason. Adults can.


He failed before this but this is the clincher, poor thing doesn't even know what an adult is.
Game over.

No, my angry friend, God will tell us that The Game has only Just Begun!

Adam and Eve? I was talking with God just the other night about this. What you have to remember, or well, what you have to know is, that in many many ways (most!) Adam & Eve WERE children. Most likely in their mid-teens, and very very innocent. No experience with evil or cunning or duplicity or ego or any outside world! God said that their basic emotional equivalent back then to somebody today in modern America maybe, would be to about a 12 year-old today.
remember that they did not even know they were naked nor were they ashamed of it before tthey partook of the fruit that gave the the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So before they ate they were totally innocent. Mormons think that Adam was so innocent and sin free he was a God! (I dont think this but just mention here to teach you about how innocent they were!) LOL
God created the serpent, since he created the Garden and everything else and the Serpent was in it. It represented the first chance that We had to use our Free Will that God has given us and that is responsible for all evil in the World. We could have been living in a perfect world of sorts like the Garden but we would not have the degree of Freedom we do today. SO we took the trade-off. and ons of the big thelogical questions is "was the trade worth it?".
I think it was because its the only way we can learn, Fall, be Saved, and progress to the Next Level which is Heaven. No suffering and learning is No Reward!!
God Bless!!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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8/3/2015 6:13:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:56:55 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
I was talking with God just the other night about this.

LOL. Seriously? You were talking with God? And, God talked back to you? Seriously?

What you have to remember, or well, what you have to know is, that in many many ways (most!) Adam & Eve WERE children. Most likely in their mid-teens, and very very innocent. No experience with evil or cunning or duplicity or ego or any outside world! God said that their basic emotional equivalent back then to somebody today in modern America maybe, would be to about a 12 year-old today.
remember that they did not even know they were naked nor were they ashamed of it before tthey partook of the fruit that gave the the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So before they ate they were totally innocent. Mormons think that Adam was so innocent and sin free he was a God! (I dont think this but just mention here to teach you about how innocent they were!) LOL
God created the serpent, since he created the Garden and everything else and the Serpent was in it. It represented the first chance that We had to use our Free Will that God has given us and that is responsible for all evil in the World. We could have been living in a perfect world of sorts like the Garden but we would not have the degree of Freedom we do today. SO we took the trade-off. and ons of the big thelogical questions is "was the trade worth it?".
I think it was because its the only way we can learn, Fall, be Saved, and progress to the Next Level which is Heaven. No suffering and learning is No Reward!!
God Bless!!

Sorry, is that what God told you? He said that to you? LOL.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
August_Burns_Red
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8/3/2015 6:34:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:13:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:56:55 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
I was talking with God just the other night about this.

LOL. Seriously? You were talking with God? And, God talked back to you? Seriously?

What you have to remember, or well, what you have to know is, that in many many ways (most!) Adam & Eve WERE children. Most likely in their mid-teens, and very very innocent. No experience with evil or cunning or duplicity or ego or any outside world! God said that their basic emotional equivalent back then to somebody today in modern America maybe, would be to about a 12 year-old today.
remember that they did not even know they were naked nor were they ashamed of it before tthey partook of the fruit that gave the the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So before they ate they were totally innocent. Mormons think that Adam was so innocent and sin free he was a God! (I dont think this but just mention here to teach you about how innocent they were!) LOL
God created the serpent, since he created the Garden and everything else and the Serpent was in it. It represented the first chance that We had to use our Free Will that God has given us and that is responsible for all evil in the World. We could have been living in a perfect world of sorts like the Garden but we would not have the degree of Freedom we do today. SO we took the trade-off. and ons of the big thelogical questions is "was the trade worth it?".
I think it was because its the only way we can learn, Fall, be Saved, and progress to the Next Level which is Heaven. No suffering and learning is No Reward!!
God Bless!!

Sorry, is that what God told you? He said that to you? LOL.

Hello, MAF. Im happy to see you ask me an honest question for once instead of attacking, even though I get the sarcasm. but I'll asnwer anyway and set myself up for more attacks. I owe it to God to speak for Him. And like I've been saying, I want to help.
Yes, God did speak to me. Anybody who is a commoner in praying or speaking downright out loud to God, who is in His Grace, can tell you how this works. Im hoping that other Believers will read this post and back me up and say "Yep--that's exactly how God talks to us!" We'll see. But yes, I mentioned in a earlier post that I been reading more Torah lately. I usually read NT stuff. But I've been getting strange feelings on the OT. That theirs more literalness to it. (I did a thread on 2nd Isiah ealier today). So how God works for me, I do my reading, then ask alout to Him my questions. And just sit back and close my eyes and try to listen and pray for an asnwer. I comes as like Elijah said the still quiet voice inside. A whisper, not w whirlwind. But I DO get a 'wooshing" sound, like a tunnel, in my ears. And then after it's such a sudden sort of burst of knowledge it make yourself forget why you asked since it was always obvious. the answer.
So yes, after reading about some Genesis questions on The Fall (which I never believed in) I did some reading last night and asked God for some Knowledge on the true State of Adam and Eve. And even if they were REAL. since as Ive said before I was never much of a biblical literalness Christian.
thats the best way I can explain. but I look at my post and aren't satisifed, really. words just fall short. Im not good enough a writer to relate the Power like I want to. Sorry for that.
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
DanneJeRusse
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8/3/2015 6:39:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:34:23 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
So how God works for me, I do my reading, then ask alout to Him my questions. And just sit back and close my eyes and try to listen and pray for an asnwer. I comes as like Elijah said the still quiet voice inside. A whisper, not w whirlwind. But I DO get a 'wooshing" sound, like a tunnel, in my ears. And then after it's such a sudden sort of burst of knowledge it make yourself forget why you asked since it was always obvious. the answer.

Yes, that certainly does sound a lot like a mental disorder, you should probably seek professional help. It'll do you a world of good.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Chaosism
Posts: 2,649
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8/3/2015 6:54:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 6:34:23 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

Yes, God did speak to me. Anybody who is a commoner in praying or speaking downright out loud to God, who is in His Grace, can tell you how this works. Im hoping that other Believers will read this post and back me up and say "Yep--that's exactly how God talks to us!" We'll see. But yes, I mentioned in a earlier post that I been reading more Torah lately. I usually read NT stuff. But I've been getting strange feelings on the OT. That theirs more literalness to it. (I did a thread on 2nd Isiah ealier today). So how God works for me, I do my reading, then ask alout to Him my questions. And just sit back and close my eyes and try to listen and pray for an asnwer. I comes as like Elijah said the still quiet voice inside. A whisper, not w whirlwind. But I DO get a 'wooshing" sound, like a tunnel, in my ears. And then after it's such a sudden sort of burst of knowledge it make yourself forget why you asked since it was always obvious. the answer.
So yes, after reading about some Genesis questions on The Fall (which I never believed in) I did some reading last night and asked God for some Knowledge on the true State of Adam and Eve. And even if they were REAL. since as Ive said before I was never much of a biblical literalness Christian.
thats the best way I can explain. but I look at my post and aren't satisifed, really. words just fall short. Im not good enough a writer to relate the Power like I want to. Sorry for that.
God Bless.

That sounds like it could be a good case of confirmation bias regarding one's own mental processes. I have few questions, if you don't mind.

1. Have you ever asked out loud and never "been given" and answer?
2. Is it possible that your mind reached the answer without an outside influence?
3. Have you asked about something you could not possibly know the answer to, and received an answer?
Chaosism
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8/3/2015 7:29:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hmm... Perhaps my questions should be retracting in light of the multiple mentions I've read regarding this being an alter-ego of Saint_of_Me.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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8/3/2015 7:53:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God created the Tree that bore the forbidden fruit. He put it right where they would find it. He did not give them any reason, they just were told 'no'. He loosed the serpent in the garden to tempt them when they had no idea of any consequences to their actions. IT was all a setup, a test that God had to know they would fail. Of course he's responsible. One cannot be Alpha and Omega, omniscient and omnipotent and not be responsible for everything. Any other interpretation is simply a theist trying to take the heat off of their personal deity, aka, themselves.
Chaosism
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8/3/2015 8:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:53:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
God created the Tree that bore the forbidden fruit. He put it right where they would find it. He did not give them any reason, they just were told 'no'. He loosed the serpent in the garden to tempt them when they had no idea of any consequences to their actions. IT was all a setup, a test that God had to know they would fail. Of course he's responsible. One cannot be Alpha and Omega, omniscient and omnipotent and not be responsible for everything. Any other interpretation is simply a theist trying to take the heat off of their personal deity, aka, themselves.

Agreed. If true, God created all that which creates evil, and so is responsible for evil. Those creations are scapegoats upon which the blame of evil is cast in order to protect the good image of God; and those scapegoats are Satan and Free Will.