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Christians: can I get your opinion on this?

August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/3/2015 9:22:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


Yeah, seems like it to me
pbarnum
Posts: 38
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8/3/2015 11:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


My Servant is not just one man named Jesus. My Servant means the voice of the Lord that was spoken through all God's prophets and saints. Most of the prophets and all us saints are killed for testifying to the voice of the Lord ( Word of the Lord ) where all God's knowledge exists.

Not one Christian understands the prophecies. Only God's trusted saints understand them and can teach God's chosen believers the true meanings of them.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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8/3/2015 11:20:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God's Salvation. God with us. The way, The Truth, and The Light. These are the eternal that survive the death of the flesh.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Mike.com
Posts: 91
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8/4/2015 12:07:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As I said before look out many 'was' is in Isaiah 53 and that mean PAST tense, not future tense....Otherwise for a future event it would have said who WILL believe our report and he `will do this or that...Had that been written AFTER the resurrection it may have more accurate.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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8/4/2015 12:32:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 11:13:17 PM, pbarnum wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


My Servant is not just one man named Jesus. My Servant means the voice of the Lord that was spoken through all God's prophets and saints. Most of the prophets and all us saints are killed for testifying to the voice of the Lord ( Word of the Lord ) where all God's knowledge exists.

Not one Christian understands the prophecies. Only God's trusted saints understand them and can teach God's chosen believers the true meanings of them.

What are the signs someone is a saint?
Does the person have to walk on water, perform miracles, be mentioned in the prophesies, have a clean moral record ?
pbarnum
Posts: 38
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8/4/2015 12:49:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 12:32:16 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/3/2015 11:13:17 PM, pbarnum wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


My Servant is not just one man named Jesus. My Servant means the voice of the Lord that was spoken through all God's prophets and saints. Most of the prophets and all us saints are killed for testifying to the voice of the Lord ( Word of the Lord ) where all God's knowledge exists.

Not one Christian understands the prophecies. Only God's trusted saints understand them and can teach God's chosen believers the true meanings of them.

What are the signs someone is a saint?
Does the person have to walk on water, perform miracles, be mentioned in the prophesies, have a clean moral record ? : :

Daniel 7
27: And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'

Psalm 16
3: As for the saints in the land, they are the noble, in whom is all my delight.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled they holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.
4. We have become a taunt to our neighbors, mocked and derided by those round us.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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8/4/2015 2:05:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 12:49:50 AM, pbarnum wrote:
At 8/4/2015 12:32:16 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/3/2015 11:13:17 PM, pbarnum wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


My Servant is not just one man named Jesus. My Servant means the voice of the Lord that was spoken through all God's prophets and saints. Most of the prophets and all us saints are killed for testifying to the voice of the Lord ( Word of the Lord ) where all God's knowledge exists.

Not one Christian understands the prophecies. Only God's trusted saints understand them and can teach God's chosen believers the true meanings of them.

What are the signs someone is a saint?
Does the person have to walk on water, perform miracles, be mentioned in the prophesies, have a clean moral record ? : :

Daniel 7
27: And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'

Psalm 16
3: As for the saints in the land, they are the noble, in whom is all my delight.

Psalm 79.
1. O God, the heathen have come into thy inheritance; they have defiled they holy temple; they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2. They have given the bodies of thy servants to the birds of the air for food, the flesh of thy saints to the beasts of the earth.
3. They have poured out their blood like water round about Jerusalem, and there was none to bury them.
4. We have become a taunt to our neighbors, mocked and derided by those round us.

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

Quite a few contradictions on the treatment of saints.

1. Their bodies should be fed to the birds and beast of the earth.
2. They should be taunted, mocked and derided.
3. The only pleasing sight to God is the sight of a dead saint.
4. They were only found in the OT. (Daniel, Psalms).
5. Daniel was not a prophet and is not mentioned in the book of prophets.
6. The glorious kingdom of Solomon and David Israeli archeologists discovered were nothing more than a little cowtown. So most of what is praised in the Psalms are just hyperbole. Israel was never a great nation throughout its history. They were a tribal group living on a small strip of land surrounded by powerful neighbours that frequently invaded and occupied and enslaved the Jews.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son, who took on the specially prepared body of Jesus to carry out his commission from his father.

Just one of about 350 prophecies about him, some obscure, some obvious.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/4/2015 3:05:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


Sorry, I am forgetting to include things just lately, lol.

Acts 8:28-40
ASV(i) 28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some one shall guide me? And he besought Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before his shearer is dumb, So he openeth not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: His generation who shall declare? For his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other? 35 And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this scripture, preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

As you can see, it was that passage that the Ethiopian Eunuch was reading but did not understand.

God's son incarnate was indeed the "suffering Servant".
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/4/2015 3:31:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.

In fact that name refers to a prophecy of Isaiah intended as a sign for King Ahaz, so is only relevant to Jesus' birth as prior virgin birth, and a foreshadowing of Jesus' own.

Which is why Jesus was never called Immanuel.

Since the birth of Immanuel was a sign for Ahaz it must have occurred back then for Ahaz to benefit from it, which he did.

That of necessity makes Jesus birth the second virgin birth.

Matthew was reminded of that prophecy as confirmation of the virgin birth of the one who would become the Christ.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/4/2015 3:53:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.

In fact that name refers to a prophecy of Isaiah intended as a sign for King Ahaz, so is only relevant to Jesus' birth as prior virgin birth, and a foreshadowing of Jesus' own.

Which is why Jesus was never called Immanuel.

Since the birth of Immanuel was a sign for Ahaz it must have occurred back then for Ahaz to benefit from it, which he did.

"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matt 1: 22-23)

That of necessity makes Jesus birth the second virgin birth.

Only you cannot locate the first one. You'll just have to claim, "Oh, it must have happened." However, please recall your record (and that of "the organization") at interpreting prophecy.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/4/2015 3:53:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It is the most compelling of the Messianic prophesies, as a whole.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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8/4/2015 4:24:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.



It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son, who took on the specially prepared body of Jesus to carry out his commission from his father.


Just one of about 350 prophecies about him, some obscure, some obvious.

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah"s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."
For further reading on the "suffering servant":
http://www.simpletoremember.com...
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/4/2015 5:11:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:53:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It is the most compelling of the Messianic prophesies, as a whole.

I agree. And I am leaning more and ore to it being a prophecy and NOT speaking of Israel. The "he" and Him I mentioned before. Sure, a couple of the lines don't jibe, as somebody else mentioned. like the part about offspring? but that could be not literal progeny but Disciples? yes--second Isiah is beginning to make me think there is more literalness to the Torah than I thought before. God Bless
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/4/2015 5:30:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:11:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:53:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It is the most compelling of the Messianic prophesies, as a whole.

I agree. And I am leaning more and ore to it being a prophecy and NOT speaking of Israel.

Well, since it is repeatedly cited in the NT, especially the gospel accounts, as a Messianic prophesy, to try to apply it to Israel would impeach the inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/4/2015 9:28:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:30:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:11:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:53:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It is the most compelling of the Messianic prophesies, as a whole.

I agree. And I am leaning more and ore to it being a prophecy and NOT speaking of Israel.

Well, since it is repeatedly cited in the NT, especially the gospel accounts, as a Messianic prophesy, to try to apply it to Israel would impeach the inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

No it does not. Matthew 7:1-5
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/4/2015 11:39:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 9:28:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:30:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:11:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:53:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/3/2015 5:39:16 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
so the other day I was talking about my recent thinking that 2nd Isiah from the Torah which many Bible scholars call the Suffering Servant passages might really be foretelling the coming of Jesus, several hundred years later! Some say that Isiah is talking about just Israel and not Jesus. I had always thought this but now am not so sure. Becasue I never see Isiah use "he" or "him" for Israel before this.
So read it and tell me what you think Isiah was talking about. God Bless!

The Suffering Servant

53...... Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should [b]be attracted to Him.

3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our [i]well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.

11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.


It is the most compelling of the Messianic prophesies, as a whole.

I agree. And I am leaning more and ore to it being a prophecy and NOT speaking of Israel.

Well, since it is repeatedly cited in the NT, especially the gospel accounts, as a Messianic prophesy, to try to apply it to Israel would impeach the inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

No it does not. Matthew 7:1-5

Matt 7: 1-5 has nothing at all to do with Isa 53.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/5/2015 1:53:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 12:07:22 AM, Mike.com wrote:
As I said before look out many 'was' is in Isaiah 53 and that mean PAST tense, not future tense....Otherwise for a future event it would have said who WILL believe our report and he `will do this or that...Had that been written AFTER the resurrection it may have more accurate.

You actually need to check the tenses in Hebrew not in English.
The Hebrew language has a tense which we don't have in English. It is a tense which can be applied to past present and future and is not confined to only one of them.
Much of the biblical principles are written in that tense which encompasses past present and future and is applicable to all people at all times.

Biblical prophecy is not about only one man but is about a WAY of LIFE which applies to past present and future. It WAS and IS and IS TO COME at all times.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 1:53:45 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/4/2015 12:07:22 AM, Mike.com wrote:
As I said before look out many 'was' is in Isaiah 53 and that mean PAST tense, not future tense....Otherwise for a future event it would have said who WILL believe our report and he `will do this or that...Had that been written AFTER the resurrection it may have more accurate.

You actually need to check the tenses in Hebrew not in English.
The Hebrew language has a tense which we don't have in English. It is a tense which can be applied to past present and future and is not confined to only one of them.
Much of the biblical principles are written in that tense which encompasses past present and future and is applicable to all people at all times.


Biblical prophecy is not about only one man but is about a WAY of LIFE which applies to past present and future. It WAS and IS and IS TO COME at all times.

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 1:53:45 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/4/2015 12:07:22 AM, Mike.com wrote:
As I said before look out many 'was' is in Isaiah 53 and that mean PAST tense, not future tense....Otherwise for a future event it would have said who WILL believe our report and he `will do this or that...Had that been written AFTER the resurrection it may have more accurate.

You actually need to check the tenses in Hebrew not in English.
The Hebrew language has a tense which we don't have in English. It is a tense which can be applied to past present and future and is not confined to only one of them.
Much of the biblical principles are written in that tense which encompasses past present and future and is applicable to all people at all times.


Biblical prophecy is not about only one man but is about a WAY of LIFE which applies to past present and future. It WAS and IS and IS TO COME at all times.

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/5/2015 2:55:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 1:53:45 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/4/2015 12:07:22 AM, Mike.com wrote:
As I said before look out many 'was' is in Isaiah 53 and that mean PAST tense, not future tense....Otherwise for a future event it would have said who WILL believe our report and he `will do this or that...Had that been written AFTER the resurrection it may have more accurate.

You actually need to check the tenses in Hebrew not in English.
The Hebrew language has a tense which we don't have in English. It is a tense which can be applied to past present and future and is not confined to only one of them.
Much of the biblical principles are written in that tense which encompasses past present and future and is applicable to all people at all times.


Biblical prophecy is not about only one man but is about a WAY of LIFE which applies to past present and future. It WAS and IS and IS TO COME at all times.

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.

I will read Isiah that way tonight after work. Do you believe JC was divine, or just a great teacher and philosopher?
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/5/2015 3:02:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.

well well...thank you Bull_Proof. That's one of your best answers ever.Maybe your comin' around? Welcome. And God Bless!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/5/2015 3:05:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.

In fact that name refers to a prophecy of Isaiah intended as a sign for King Ahaz, so is only relevant to Jesus' birth as prior virgin birth, and a foreshadowing of Jesus' own.

Which is why Jesus was never called Immanuel.

Since the birth of Immanuel was a sign for Ahaz it must have occurred back then for Ahaz to benefit from it, which he did.

That of necessity makes Jesus birth the second virgin birth.

Matthew was reminded of that prophecy as confirmation of the virgin birth of the one who would become the Christ.

Hey, bugger off mate! Leave Bull_Proof alone, he's coming along. Besides, you're wrong.
When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses thewonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling amongus" ( John 1:14 ).In the Old Testament God's presence with his people Israel was particularly evident in thetabernacle ( Exod 25:8 ),but the glory that filled the tabernacle was surpassed by the personal presence of God theSon as he revealed the Father during his ministry on earth. Christ's glory was revealedthrough the miracles he performed ( John 2:11 ).

The birth of Immanuel to the virgin Mary fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14......
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/5/2015 4:13:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 2:55:04 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.

I will read Isiah that way tonight after work. Do you believe JC was divine, or just a great teacher and philosopher?

The character in the story is irrelevant to his message. It makes no difference who or what he was. It could just as easily have been a story about Mother Nature and her life, or Father Time and his life. Would you worship one of them if it was or would you understand the character is merely a personification of a principle?

Truth is despised and rejected by many because it is not always a lovely desirable thing to look at. It has no form nor comeliness...... there is no beauty that we should desire it.

Just consider how humans are taught to hide the truth due to the fact that it hurts and offends people. They are taught to whitewash it and hide it behind false facades of political correctness. Why ? Because their white lies are far more acceptable than the naked Truth.
Honesty is only acceptable to people when its something they want to hear and see and accept, Not when its something they don't want to hear or see or accept.

Anyone who is a messenger of Truth gets despised and rejected IF they are sending a message which is unwelcomed. Humans tend to reject the messenger of the message as well as the message if they don't like the message.
Most have not learned to separate the message from the messenger especially in mythical stories.
A story can have a truthful and relevant message without the character being real.

There is no need to worship a character to abide by the principles the character taught.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/5/2015 7:07:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 3:05:20 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:31:58 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:20:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:00:57 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
It refers to the coming of the Christ, yes. God's son,
Called Immanuel.

In fact that name refers to a prophecy of Isaiah intended as a sign for King Ahaz, so is only relevant to Jesus' birth as prior virgin birth, and a foreshadowing of Jesus' own.

Which is why Jesus was never called Immanuel.

Since the birth of Immanuel was a sign for Ahaz it must have occurred back then for Ahaz to benefit from it, which he did.

That of necessity makes Jesus birth the second virgin birth.

Matthew was reminded of that prophecy as confirmation of the virgin birth of the one who would become the Christ.

Hey, bugger off mate! Leave Bull_Proof alone, he's coming along. Besides, you're wrong.
When the angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, he learned that his fianc Mary was"with child through the Holy Spirit" and would give birth to a son named"Immanuel" ( Matthew 1:18 Matthew 1:23 )."Immanuel" is a Hebrew word meaning "God with us" and expresses thewonder of the incarnation, that God "became flesh and made his dwelling amongus" ( John 1:14 ).In the Old Testament God's presence with his people Israel was particularly evident in thetabernacle ( Exod 25:8 ),but the glory that filled the tabernacle was surpassed by the personal presence of God theSon as he revealed the Father during his ministry on earth. Christ's glory was revealedthrough the miracles he performed ( John 2:11 ).

The birth of Immanuel to the virgin Mary fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14......
But unfortunately the birth of Jesus to the "virgin" Mary didn't fulfill the "prophesy" of Isaiah 7:14.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bnrobertson
Posts: 117
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8/5/2015 7:43:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 4:13:26 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:55:04 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.

I will read Isiah that way tonight after work. Do you believe JC was divine, or just a great teacher and philosopher?

The character in the story is irrelevant to his message. It makes no difference who or what he was. It could just as easily have been a story about Mother Nature and her life, or Father Time and his life. Would you worship one of them if it was or would you understand the character is merely a personification of a principle?

Truth is despised and rejected by many because it is not always a lovely desirable thing to look at. It has no form nor comeliness...... there is no beauty that we should desire it.

Just consider how humans are taught to hide the truth due to the fact that it hurts and offends people. They are taught to whitewash it and hide it behind false facades of political correctness. Why ? Because their white lies are far more acceptable than the naked Truth.
Honesty is only acceptable to people when its something they want to hear and see and accept, Not when its something they don't want to hear or see or accept.

Anyone who is a messenger of Truth gets despised and rejected IF they are sending a message which is unwelcomed. Humans tend to reject the messenger of the message as well as the message if they don't like the message.
Most have not learned to separate the message from the messenger especially in mythical stories.
A story can have a truthful and relevant message without the character being real.

There is no need to worship a character to abide by the principles the character taught. : :

I don't worship any characters that God created. I live according to what is given to me by God and that's what I share with my friends who ask me about God.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/5/2015 8:19:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 7:43:07 AM, bnrobertson wrote:
At 8/5/2015 4:13:26 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:55:04 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.

I will read Isiah that way tonight after work. Do you believe JC was divine, or just a great teacher and philosopher?

The character in the story is irrelevant to his message. It makes no difference who or what he was. It could just as easily have been a story about Mother Nature and her life, or Father Time and his life. Would you worship one of them if it was or would you understand the character is merely a personification of a principle?

Truth is despised and rejected by many because it is not always a lovely desirable thing to look at. It has no form nor comeliness...... there is no beauty that we should desire it.

Just consider how humans are taught to hide the truth due to the fact that it hurts and offends people. They are taught to whitewash it and hide it behind false facades of political correctness. Why ? Because their white lies are far more acceptable than the naked Truth.
Honesty is only acceptable to people when its something they want to hear and see and accept, Not when its something they don't want to hear or see or accept.

Anyone who is a messenger of Truth gets despised and rejected IF they are sending a message which is unwelcomed. Humans tend to reject the messenger of the message as well as the message if they don't like the message.
Most have not learned to separate the message from the messenger especially in mythical stories.
A story can have a truthful and relevant message without the character being real.

There is no need to worship a character to abide by the principles the character taught. : :

I don't worship any characters that God created. I live according to what is given to me by God and that's what I share with my friends who ask me about God.

Yep, you worship the characters that man created, much better.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bnrobertson
Posts: 117
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8/5/2015 8:21:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2015 8:19:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/5/2015 7:43:07 AM, bnrobertson wrote:
At 8/5/2015 4:13:26 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:55:04 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:45:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/5/2015 2:24:51 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:

do you think 2nd Isiah and the Suffering Servant passages were prophesying Jesus or speaking of the Nation of Israel?

The passage can be applied to both.
It can also be applied to LIFE and TRUTH in general.
If you personify LIFE or TRUTH as a character you can apply the passage to anyone at all who lives in the past present and future.

Read the passage through with LIFE itself in mind as the "suffering servant"
Life suffers from being the servant of Life.

I will read Isiah that way tonight after work. Do you believe JC was divine, or just a great teacher and philosopher?

The character in the story is irrelevant to his message. It makes no difference who or what he was. It could just as easily have been a story about Mother Nature and her life, or Father Time and his life. Would you worship one of them if it was or would you understand the character is merely a personification of a principle?

Truth is despised and rejected by many because it is not always a lovely desirable thing to look at. It has no form nor comeliness...... there is no beauty that we should desire it.

Just consider how humans are taught to hide the truth due to the fact that it hurts and offends people. They are taught to whitewash it and hide it behind false facades of political correctness. Why ? Because their white lies are far more acceptable than the naked Truth.
Honesty is only acceptable to people when its something they want to hear and see and accept, Not when its something they don't want to hear or see or accept.

Anyone who is a messenger of Truth gets despised and rejected IF they are sending a message which is unwelcomed. Humans tend to reject the messenger of the message as well as the message if they don't like the message.
Most have not learned to separate the message from the messenger especially in mythical stories.
A story can have a truthful and relevant message without the character being real.

There is no need to worship a character to abide by the principles the character taught. : :

I don't worship any characters that God created. I live according to what is given to me by God and that's what I share with my friends who ask me about God.

Yep, you worship the characters that man created, much better. : :

What did man create?