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Are you more moral than your God?

tvellalott
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8/27/2010 3:10:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.


Let me ask you a question:
Would you lock your children in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you?
Add another level.
Would give your children out for adaption at birth, take them from their homes some years later, lock them in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you, even though you never showed them that you existed?

I think the point I'm getting at is clear.

I am an Atheist. Christianity tells me that I will go to Hell when I die because I don't accept Jesus as my savior. Christians, do you think this is fair and just?
If you do, go on with doing what your doing because there is no point talking to you.
If you don't, ask yourself why you worship a God with inferior moral standards to you.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Alex
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8/27/2010 3:17:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 3:10:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.


Let me ask you a question:
Would you lock your children in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you?
Add another level.
Would give your children out for adaption at birth, take them from their homes some years later, lock them in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you, even though you never showed them that you existed?

I think the point I'm getting at is clear.

I am an Atheist. Christianity tells me that I will go to Hell when I die because I don't accept Jesus as my savior. Christians, do you think this is fair and just?
If you do, go on with doing what your doing because there is no point talking to you.
If you don't, ask yourself why you worship a God with inferior moral standards to you.

Picture this, you give your son up for adoption, years later you realize your son was a royal brat and was driving the adopting parent insane, you see that the adopting parent was going to abuse and possibly kill your child for this, so you step in and sacrifice yourself to save your child, and your child has no gratitude.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
tvellalott
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8/27/2010 3:38:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 3:17:51 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Picture this, you give your son up for adoption, years later you realize your son was a royal brat and was driving the adopting parent insane, you see that the adopting parent was going to abuse and possibly kill your child for this, so you step in and sacrifice yourself to save your child, and your child has no gratitude.

So you save your child from being abused and killed and when he isn't grateful, you lock him in the basement and torture him?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Alex
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8/27/2010 4:00:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 3:38:34 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/27/2010 3:17:51 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Picture this, you give your son up for adoption, years later you realize your son was a royal brat and was driving the adopting parent insane, you see that the adopting parent was going to abuse and possibly kill your child for this, so you step in and sacrifice yourself to save your child, and your child has no gratitude.

So you save your child from being abused and killed and when he isn't grateful, you lock him in the basement and torture him?

If he denies me who i am, yar
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
tvellalott
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8/27/2010 4:09:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I hope you're joking...
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Alex
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8/27/2010 4:11:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:09:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I hope you're joking...

Look I know your analogy seems fit to you, but there is much more to take into consideration.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Alex
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8/27/2010 4:16:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
God does not 'send' people to hell per se. What we must aknowledge is that he wishes for all to enter heaven, he could end it now the way things are but he doesn't. He wants us to have more time and more of a chance, and in the end its not him sending anyone, it's giving them what theyve insisted on their entire life-which is separation from him. It is stubborness that confemns to hell. We ruined the place, he offers forgiveness and you deny it.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Alex
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8/27/2010 4:17:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:09:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I hope you're joking...

And to answer your question, no i would not actually send someone to hell had i the choice.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
tvellalott
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8/27/2010 4:18:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:16:14 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
God does not 'send' people to hell per se. What we must aknowledge is that he wishes for all to enter heaven, he could end it now the way things are but he doesn't. He wants us to have more time and more of a chance, and in the end its not him sending anyone, it's giving them what theyve insisted on their entire life-which is separation from him. It is stubborness that confemns to hell. We ruined the place, he offers forgiveness and you deny it.

At 8/27/2010 4:17:14 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
At 8/27/2010 4:09:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I hope you're joking...

And to answer your question, no i would not actually send someone to hell had i the choice.

That means you're more moral than you're own God.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Alex
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8/27/2010 4:20:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:18:51 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 8/27/2010 4:16:14 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
God does not 'send' people to hell per se. What we must aknowledge is that he wishes for all to enter heaven, he could end it now the way things are but he doesn't. He wants us to have more time and more of a chance, and in the end its not him sending anyone, it's giving them what theyve insisted on their entire life-which is separation from him. It is stubborness that confemns to hell. We ruined the place, he offers forgiveness and you deny it.

At 8/27/2010 4:17:14 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
At 8/27/2010 4:09:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I hope you're joking...

And to answer your question, no i would not actually send someone to hell had i the choice.

That means you're more moral than you're own God.

Really, we are to say what is moral and what isn't, against the creator which is an all knowing-powerful-good God?
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
tvellalott
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8/27/2010 4:28:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:20:25 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Really, we are to say what is moral and what isn't, against the creator which is an all knowing-powerful-good God?

I base morals on what is beneficial and what is harmful.
Your creators morals revolve around worshipping and loving him. That just doesn't fly with me.
God is saying that if you don't love and worship him and accept Jesus as your saviour for sins that you haven't even commited, then you will not get to live for eternity in bliss, you'll suffer for eternity in torturous pain.

I'm a good person, why should I go to Hell?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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popculturepooka
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8/27/2010 6:17:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 3:10:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.


Let me ask you a question:
Would you lock your children in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you?

No. I don't think God would either.

Add another level.
Would give your children out for adaption at birth, take them from their homes some years later, lock them in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you, even though you never showed them that you existed?


Same as above.

I think the point I'm getting at is clear.

I am an Atheist. Christianity tells me that I will go to Hell when I die because I don't accept Jesus as my savior.

Not merely because you don't happen to accept the correct propositions. It has a equally as much to do with your actions as well.

Anyways, I make no judgements about who is or isn't going to hell (or even heaven) for the most part as I have no way of knowing for certain. So I just do my best to find true beliefs and act right.

Christians, do you think this is fair and just?

Not the above scenario the way you described it.

If you do, go on with doing what your doing because there is no point talking to you.
If you don't, ask yourself why you worship a God with inferior moral standards to you.

Or perhaps there are different ways of looking at the whole situation...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
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8/27/2010 6:21:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 3:17:51 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Picture this, you give your son up for adoption, years later you realize your son was a royal brat and was driving the adopting parent insane, you see that the adopting parent was going to abuse and possibly kill your child for this, so you step in and sacrifice yourself to save your child, and your child has no gratitude.

so you drive stakes under his fingernails... but provide good healtchcare so you can Continually drive stakes into uncomfortable areas.... w/o the Death ruining the fun..
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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8/27/2010 6:38:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 4:20:25 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Really, we are to say what is moral and what isn't, against the creator which is an all knowing-powerful-good God?

no, of course not. you gave up your the meaningful base of "right" and "wrong" a long time ago.

Right and Wrong is no longer decided by what you actually care about...

it's decided by your understanding of what God cares about instead...

this is called Giving Up Your Humanity... Religious people do it all the time.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tvellalott
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8/27/2010 6:46:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 6:17:50 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/27/2010 3:10:32 AM, tvellalott wrote:
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.


Let me ask you a question:
Would you lock your children in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you?

No. I don't think God would either.

Add another level.
Would give your children out for adaption at birth, take them from their homes some years later, lock them in the basement and torture them forever because they didn't love you, even though you never showed them that you existed?


Same as above.

I think the point I'm getting at is clear.

I am an Atheist. Christianity tells me that I will go to Hell when I die because I don't accept Jesus as my savior.

Not merely because you don't happen to accept the correct propositions. It has a equally as much to do with your actions as well.

Anyways, I make no judgements about who is or isn't going to hell (or even heaven) for the most part as I have no way of knowing for certain. So I just do my best to find true beliefs and act right.

Christians, do you think this is fair and just?

Not the above scenario the way you described it.

If you do, go on with doing what your doing because there is no point talking to you.
If you don't, ask yourself why you worship a God with inferior moral standards to you.

Or perhaps there are different ways of looking at the whole situation...

You're an exceptional person pooka with strong morals and I have the upmost respect for you and your beliefs. I would go so far as to say I would worship your God, if I believed him to be real. I find the whole thing quite reasonable. The only difference seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) you believe that the First Cause was Yahweh and I don't.

As you can see, I'm going past the pointless argument of whether or not God exists, because we could argue that until the cows come home.

You clearly build your morals the same way as I do. You search for truth and do your best to act right. If only all theists were like that. I find it easy to lump Christians into a basket because you're all reading the same book; you're clearly an exception to the fact. In fact I've seen you speak against dogmatic rubbish. We're fighting the same fight; the fight for reason.

My whole point here is that there are people out there who believe that I am going to go to Hell for an eternity of torture, regardless of my actions.
My question to THOSE people is, why do you worship a God who is moral inferior to you?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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mattrodstrom
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8/27/2010 6:55:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 6:46:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
My question to THOSE people is, why do you worship a God who is moral inferior to you?

the answer is they're Nihilists (like Augustine the hippopotamus) who REJECT their own values... REJECT their own cares... and cling to the supposed Super Good cares of a make-believe Transcendent being.

I think this is from seeing the world, themselves, and their cares in a Negative light... so they convince themselves that if Ultimate is used as a prefix in describing things then things have meaning again....

so they reject their own cares... and cling to "Supernatural/Transcendant" ones... the problem being that supernatural ones don't exist... so.. they gett'em from silly old books... which offer up some pretty silly/horrible ideas.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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8/27/2010 6:59:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 6:55:28 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/27/2010 6:46:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
My question to THOSE people is, why do you worship a God who is moral inferior to you?

the answer is they're Nihilists (like Augustine the hippopotamus) who REJECT their own values... REJECT their own cares... and cling to the supposed Super Good cares of a make-believe Transcendent being.

I think this is from seeing the world, themselves, and their cares in a Negative light... so they convince themselves that if Ultimate is used as a prefix in describing things then things have meaning again....

so they reject their own cares... and cling to "Supernatural/Transcendant" ones... the problem being that supernatural ones don't exist... so.. they gett'em from silly old books... which offer up some pretty silly/horrible ideas.

basically.... read some Nietzsche.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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8/27/2010 10:44:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I always wondered the same thing and PCP if more christians were like you then I'm sure it would be way easier to convert people, and I think if more people were like you in general then the world would be way more peaceful.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
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8/27/2010 10:48:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 10:44:42 AM, lovelife wrote:
I always wondered the same thing and PCP I have a crush on you.

Is that really relevant?

maybe you should put that stuff in Private messages.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tvellalott
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8/29/2010 4:39:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The lack of response to this thread is bringing me lots of lulz.
I guessed as much.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Ren
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8/29/2010 4:46:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/29/2010 4:39:05 PM, tvellalott wrote:
The lack of response to this thread is bringing me lots of lulz.
I guessed as much.

You didn't leave much room for discussion:

If you do, go on with doing what your doing because there is no point talking to you.
If you don't, ask yourself why you worship a God with inferior moral standards to you.
tvellalott
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8/29/2010 4:49:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I suppose I should have added "DISCUSS" at the end, but I thought that was a given.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Ren
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8/29/2010 4:56:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/29/2010 4:49:10 PM, tvellalott wrote:
I suppose I should have added "DISCUSS" at the end, but I thought that was a given.

I still don't see where you left any room for discussion, even if you added that as an intention. Even if I could eke out some sort of invitation to converse, it would only be with people who agree with you.

But.

What defines morality?

Technically, God is simply distinguishing who He will accept. You wouldn't let someone who rejects you live off of you in your house, would you? Parents often do, but only until that child can take care of him or herself. Then, they are expected to let them or make them leave. Not doing so is frowned upon in this society and thus, is socially amoral.

God gave us an option to serve Him rather than controlling us; that was the point of my last post. Thus, I don't see why the clearly stated repercussions of our volitional decisions could be considered amoral. Maybe you can tell me how it is?
tvellalott
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8/30/2010 1:31:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/29/2010 4:56:53 PM, Ren wrote:
What defines morality?
Everyone defines their own morality. Its completely subjective.

Technically, God is simply distinguishing who He will accept. You wouldn't let someone who rejects you live off of you in your house, would you? Parents often do, but only until that child can take care of him or herself. Then, they are expected to let them or make them leave. Not doing so is frowned upon in this society and thus, is socially amoral.
No parent in the world is omnipotent, onmiscient and omnibenevolent. The children are subject to the morals of the parent. The parent might support the child long after he was due to move out. The parent might throw the child out on the street the moment they are legally able to fend for themselves. We are subject to Gods morals.

God gave us an option to serve Him rather than controlling us; that was the point of my last post. Thus, I don't see why the clearly stated repercussions of our volitional decisions could be considered amoral. Maybe you can tell me how it is?
God gives us to option to serve Him or suffer for eternity in Hell. Ok, fine. Thats cool. But don't condemn people to infinite torture and say you're a loving God in the same breath.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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CrappyDebater
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8/30/2010 6:14:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
God gave us an option to serve Him rather than controlling us; that was the point of my last post. Thus, I don't see why the clearly stated repercussions of our volitional decisions could be considered amoral. Maybe you can tell me how it is?
God gives us to option to serve Him or suffer for eternity in Hell. Ok, fine. Thats cool. But don't condemn people to infinite torture and say you're a loving God in the same breath.

Do you even know what Hell is? How can you be certain Hell is the sheol of fire and brimstone, rather than eternal existence without ones creator?
mattrodstrom
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8/30/2010 7:47:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 7:39:55 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Understand your bible quotes guys.

If the Christian Gods word is true then no one is more moral than god.

I understand what you mean...
But I think this idea's already been touched on.

At 8/27/2010 6:38:34 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/27/2010 4:20:25 AM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
Really, we are to say what is moral and what isn't, against the creator which is an all knowing-powerful-good God?

no, of course not. you gave up your the meaningful base of "right" and "wrong" a long time ago.

Right and Wrong is no longer decided by what you actually care about...

it's decided by your understanding of what God cares about instead...


this is called Giving Up Your Humanity... Religious people do it all the time.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."