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"You're Just Brainwashed!"

Chaosism
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8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/4/2015 3:32:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

I'll argue on the side of "Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!"

Indoctrination:
Children are exposed to religion before they can walk or talk. They are taken to churches, mosques or synagogues. They hear the words of the priests, preachers, imams or rabbis. At home they are taught to pray before eating or going to bed.

They are instilled with not just the god of their parents but also the particular aspects of their parents beliefs: Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, Sunni, Shia.

Religious propaganda:
As they get older and develop the ability to process information, they are exposed to a continuation of the above. Also, they hear nothing to the contrary, often until well into their teens or in colleges. By then "belief" is thoroughly embedded into the essence of their minds.

Fortunately, I was not raised this way. Religion was not a thing in my house - neither was atheism. Religion was not discussed because it just wasn't important. Easter and Christmas were celebrated, but was about it.
My earliest exposure to "religion" was a few years after I came to realize that Santa was a myth. Around the age of nine, I was sent off to Sunday school. I was told the stories of Adam and Eve and Noah's saving of the animals, complete with cutely drawn pictures.

About three weeks in, I dropped out. Shortly thereafter I came to the realization that god was a myth just as Santa was a myth and that stories about god (religion) were as real as stories about Santa.

Everything I have learned since then just reaffirms that position.
Think
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/4/2015 3:59:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Religion being the malware.
Think
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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8/4/2015 4:04:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

I don't see the correlation, there. How is a way of life the same as a religion?

Oxford definitions
Way of Life : the typical pattern of behavior of a person or group.
Religion : the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

I can see how a religion can be part of a way of life, but I don't see how a way of life is synonymous with religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Scrub, scrub, scrub.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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8/4/2015 4:45:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 4:04:20 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

I don't see the correlation, there. How is a way of life the same as a religion?

Oxford definitions
Way of Life : the typical pattern of behavior of a person or group.
Religion : the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

I can see how a religion can be part of a way of life, but I don't see how a way of life is synonymous with religion.

Merriam Webster defines religion as, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

But your definition isn't wrong. Let both of these definitions add depth to the concept.

If you hold a cause, principle, or system of beliefs with ardor and faith, it will manifest itself as a way of life. Faith without works is dead, as they say. The True Religion that is universally found in divinely inspired scripture is to Love truth, practice sincerity of faith, and be kind and charitable to others.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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8/4/2015 4:48:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 4:45:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:04:20 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

I don't see the correlation, there. How is a way of life the same as a religion?

Oxford definitions
Way of Life : the typical pattern of behavior of a person or group.
Religion : the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

I can see how a religion can be part of a way of life, but I don't see how a way of life is synonymous with religion.


Merriam Webster defines religion as, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

But your definition isn't wrong. Let both of these definitions add depth to the concept.

If you hold a cause, principle, or system of beliefs with ardor and faith, it will manifest itself as a way of life. Faith without works is dead, as they say. The True Religion that is universally found in divinely inspired scripture is to Love truth, practice sincerity of faith, and be kind and charitable to others.

so Evolution is a religion, I always knew it was...
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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8/4/2015 4:48:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

I am a Christian who has more atheist friends than Christian friends. My atheist friends do not accuse me of being brainwashed. They prefer to tell me I'm being silly and gullible. My Christian friends, don't tell me I'm brainwashed to my face, but it's what they believe. The irony is that they believe it while homeschooling their children and grandchildren, telling them that if they believe in evolution, they'll surely go to Hell.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?

you stated off, first few lines or so with what seemed to be a fairly balanced thread, by the end you couldn't help but pick at faith as if it's hairy fairy and science as if it is proven fact, you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

I'm not being funny but how old are you, do you really think you have weighed all the possibilities??
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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8/4/2015 5:15:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?

you stated off, first few lines or so with what seemed to be a fairly balanced thread, by the end you couldn't help but pick at faith as if it's hairy fairy and science as if it is proven fact, you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

I'm not being funny but how old are you, do you really think you have weighed all the possibilities??

I was just trying to indicate where my understanding lies at this point in time. I always state that my current position is atheism as to not cement myself to a particular stance. Also, if I was absolutely certain that I was right, I don't believe that I would be posting here in this inquisitive manner; I like to expose my ideas and standing to criticism.

Anyway, I'm 32 and I know that I haven't weighed all of the possibilities (ongoing process), and I don't think anyone would be around long enough to fully understand all of them. I delve into as many fields as I can, and ask questions often. (Probably annoyingly so.)
Chaosism
Posts: 2,672
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8/4/2015 5:19:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
...you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

To expand, I actually have done some experimentation (with psychology anyway) and looked into clinical trials and whatnot, so I have witnessed behavior that supports a good deal of the psychological claims.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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8/4/2015 5:22:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:15:07 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?

you stated off, first few lines or so with what seemed to be a fairly balanced thread, by the end you couldn't help but pick at faith as if it's hairy fairy and science as if it is proven fact, you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

I'm not being funny but how old are you, do you really think you have weighed all the possibilities??

I was just trying to indicate where my understanding lies at this point in time. I always state that my current position is atheism as to not cement myself to a particular stance. Also, if I was absolutely certain that I was right, I don't believe that I would be posting here in this inquisitive manner; I like to expose my ideas and standing to criticism.

Anyway, I'm 32 and I know that I haven't weighed all of the possibilities (ongoing process), and I don't think anyone would be around long enough to fully understand all of them. I delve into as many fields as I can, and ask questions often. (Probably annoyingly so.)

you post like someone who has made their mind up science is right and faith, religion is simply not true or is for gullible people..

brain washing is an interesting idea, all it means is have we become so entrenched in what we believe we have simply stopped looking at alternatives and simply defend what we believe at all costs..
dhardage
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8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/4/2015 5:35:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

So your a student of psych and neurology, eh? Good. my sister is a psychologist in Seattle. and an atheist. when I got Saved she was happy about my new direction in life but skeptic on who and how. I told her about my salvation Experience and lets just say she wasn't totally convinced it was real. but she admitted as did her colleague whom I once had to go to therapy with, it was court-ordered, for anger management, that my personality was completely changed. they even tested me and said the test result after I was Saved was like from a totally different and less aggressive person. oh but my point here is that Vanessa says that a good percentage of psych professionals believe in God. more than she thought. and nueroligists too, the brian surgeons. their not atheist like most people think. the percent of them who believe is getting higher all the time as the find things about our brains and minds they cant explain.
also dont let Biblical stories make you doubt God. like you mentioned about Abrams' and Sara's lies. The Bible was written by men and has nothing to do with the Truth of God the Creator. dont let 3000 y.o. words hurt your idea of God or no God.
calling somebody brainwashed is the easy way out of an argument. you just say that and then dont have to try and convince them anymore about your opinion. its easy just to say "oh your hopeless and brainwashed!" LOL.
but if we look at the definition of brainwash it really is just an extreme version of being 'taught." as we all are, in some way. either in religion or science or politics. kids who grow up with parents who force either God or atheism on them and dont let them decide for themselves I think can be called brainwashed. I think it has to be done in childhood. its hard to brainwash a sane adult once he has been around awhile and seem both sides of things.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?
Chaosism
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8/4/2015 5:38:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:15:07 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?

you stated off, first few lines or so with what seemed to be a fairly balanced thread, by the end you couldn't help but pick at faith as if it's hairy fairy and science as if it is proven fact, you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

I'm not being funny but how old are you, do you really think you have weighed all the possibilities??

I was just trying to indicate where my understanding lies at this point in time. I always state that my current position is atheism as to not cement myself to a particular stance. Also, if I was absolutely certain that I was right, I don't believe that I would be posting here in this inquisitive manner; I like to expose my ideas and standing to criticism.

Anyway, I'm 32 and I know that I haven't weighed all of the possibilities (ongoing process), and I don't think anyone would be around long enough to fully understand all of them. I delve into as many fields as I can, and ask questions often. (Probably annoyingly so.)

you post like someone who has made their mind up science is right and faith, religion is simply not true or is for gullible people..

That is the direction that I am leaning, but I haven't closed off alternative possibilities, or the possibility that could be wrong. I don't automatically accept something just because it's science. I am skeptical in general and try to verify things by as many means as possible (falsification). I haven't had much success in this department in regards to religious studies, but I haven't ceased my efforts.

brain washing is an interesting idea, all it means is have we become so entrenched in what we believe we have simply stopped looking at alternatives and simply defend what we believe at all costs..

I think brainwashing is more than that. It's a specific thing that is caused by outside influences. (http://psychologydictionary.org...)
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 5:43:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:38:58 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:22:32 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:15:07 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:02:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:58:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 4:35:49 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:01:12 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I've heard this accusation thrown around to a good degree (not only here):

Atheist to Theist: You've just been brainwashed by your religious propaganda and indoctrination!

Theist to Atheist: You've just been brainwashed by all the atheist science propaganda!

If you are on one side of this argument (or have even thrown out this accusation), have you honestly considered the possibility that you are the one who has been influence by this supposed "brainwashing"? What makes you so certain that you aren't?

Of course, I don't believe myself to be brainwashed at all (not that anyone would), and my current atheistic position continues to grow in strength and is primarily supported by my independent studies of human psychology and neurology, and by conceptual inconsistencies in the current notions of God derived from holy books. (One such minor example in the Bible is when a perfectly just God punishes pharaoh and his household for Abraham and Sarah's lies. Genesis 12:14-20). Anyway, I am curious; would anyone out there say that I am under the influence of this supposed "brainwashing"?

judging by this post yes..

Hmm... Care to elaborate?

you stated off, first few lines or so with what seemed to be a fairly balanced thread, by the end you couldn't help but pick at faith as if it's hairy fairy and science as if it is proven fact, you even have convinced yourself yo have enough personal knowledge to make it beyond question science is true faith is not...

I'm not being funny but how old are you, do you really think you have weighed all the possibilities??

I was just trying to indicate where my understanding lies at this point in time. I always state that my current position is atheism as to not cement myself to a particular stance. Also, if I was absolutely certain that I was right, I don't believe that I would be posting here in this inquisitive manner; I like to expose my ideas and standing to criticism.

Anyway, I'm 32 and I know that I haven't weighed all of the possibilities (ongoing process), and I don't think anyone would be around long enough to fully understand all of them. I delve into as many fields as I can, and ask questions often. (Probably annoyingly so.)

you post like someone who has made their mind up science is right and faith, religion is simply not true or is for gullible people..

That is the direction that I am leaning, but I haven't closed off alternative possibilities, or the possibility that could be wrong. I don't automatically accept something just because it's science. I am skeptical in general and try to verify things by as many means as possible (falsification). I haven't had much success in this department in regards to religious studies, but I haven't ceased my efforts.

brain washing is an interesting idea, all it means is have we become so entrenched in what we believe we have simply stopped looking at alternatives and simply defend what we believe at all costs..

I think brainwashing is more than that. It's a specific thing that is caused by outside influences. (http://psychologydictionary.org...)

I'm sorry but you do not come across as someone who is open minded to religion, yu seem very opposed to it, demeaning even..

and you do not think science, through various guises can brainwash, it even goes to the point of making people who do not believe science out to be plain stupid, that is pressure and brainwashing...
dhardage
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8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?
Chaosism
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8/4/2015 5:49:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:35:48 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
So your a student of psych and neurology, eh? Good.

Tryin'. Also trying like heck to avoid that pesky Dunning"Kruger effect. :P

my sister is a psychologist in Seattle. and an atheist. when I got Saved she was happy about my new direction in life but skeptic on who and how. I told her about my salvation Experience and lets just say she wasn't totally convinced it was real. but she admitted as did her colleague whom I once had to go to therapy with, it was court-ordered, for anger management, that my personality was completely changed. they even tested me and said the test result after I was Saved was like from a totally different and less aggressive person. oh but my point here is that Vanessa says that a good percentage of psych professionals believe in God. more than she thought. and nueroligists too, the brian surgeons. their not atheist like most people think. the percent of them who believe is getting higher all the time as the find things about our brains and minds they cant explain.

It's interesting that a physical change was detected. What kind of test(s) did they perform?

also dont let Biblical stories make you doubt God. like you mentioned about Abrams' and Sara's lies. The Bible was written by men and has nothing to do with the Truth of God the Creator. dont let 3000 y.o. words hurt your idea of God or no God.

Well, the concept of God has to come from somewhere, as far as I can tell. Otherwise, the ball's entirely in His court about my stance, and I feel more than justified in continuing on my course if this is the case.

calling somebody brainwashed is the easy way out of an argument. you just say that and then dont have to try and convince them anymore about your opinion. its easy just to say "oh your hopeless and brainwashed!" LOL.

Yep. Used this way is a Poisoning the Well / Ad Hominem.

but if we look at the definition of brainwash it really is just an extreme version of being 'taught." as we all are, in some way. either in religion or science or politics. kids who grow up with parents who force either God or atheism on them and dont let them decide for themselves I think can be called brainwashed. I think it has to be done in childhood. its hard to brainwash a sane adult once he has been around awhile and seem both sides of things.

I think it depends on how it is being taught. Brainwashing would be the action of others upon one's mind - manipulation. If teaching or encouraging one to be fair and generally skeptical, that is not brainwashing.
Chaosism
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8/4/2015 6:04:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:43:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:58 PM, Chaosism wrote:
That is the direction that I am leaning, but I haven't closed off alternative possibilities, or the possibility that could be wrong. I don't automatically accept something just because it's science. I am skeptical in general and try to verify things by as many means as possible (falsification). I haven't had much success in this department in regards to religious studies, but I haven't ceased my efforts.

brain washing is an interesting idea, all it means is have we become so entrenched in what we believe we have simply stopped looking at alternatives and simply defend what we believe at all costs..

I think brainwashing is more than that. It's a specific thing that is caused by outside influences. (http://psychologydictionary.org...)

I'm sorry but you do not come across as someone who is open minded to religion, yu seem very opposed to it, demeaning even..

and you do not think science, through various guises can brainwash, it even goes to the point of making people who do not believe science out to be plain stupid, that is pressure and brainwashing...

My apologies if I have been demeaning to religion; I know I helped poke fun in another thread recently, but that's was all it was. I have genuinely asked questions and tried to find logical/reasonable solutions to my issues with particular religious ideas/issues. I don't have a problem with religious beliefs unless they bring harm to someone.

I know that not all of the scientific knowledge out there is correct, and I do think that someone can possibly be brainwashed by scientific knowledge, too, not just religion. That's why I do my best to verify it. Heck, in middle school I would sometimes question the teacher and find another means of verifying what they were teaching. And I certainly don't think of anyone as stupid; everyone has their own reasons for what they believe or don't believe. Again, my apologies if I have inadvertently made this accusation indirectly.

Thank you.
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 7:08:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?

no I did not reply as it was opinion, in my opinion children from a background of faith are better people...

at 15 you disproved God, good for you, it was probably peer pressure all these believers in the religion of evolution making fun of you....
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 7:14:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 6:04:36 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:43:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:58 PM, Chaosism wrote:
That is the direction that I am leaning, but I haven't closed off alternative possibilities, or the possibility that could be wrong. I don't automatically accept something just because it's science. I am skeptical in general and try to verify things by as many means as possible (falsification). I haven't had much success in this department in regards to religious studies, but I haven't ceased my efforts.

brain washing is an interesting idea, all it means is have we become so entrenched in what we believe we have simply stopped looking at alternatives and simply defend what we believe at all costs..

I think brainwashing is more than that. It's a specific thing that is caused by outside influences. (http://psychologydictionary.org...)

I'm sorry but you do not come across as someone who is open minded to religion, yu seem very opposed to it, demeaning even..

and you do not think science, through various guises can brainwash, it even goes to the point of making people who do not believe science out to be plain stupid, that is pressure and brainwashing...

My apologies if I have been demeaning to religion; I know I helped poke fun in another thread recently, but that's was all it was. I have genuinely asked questions and tried to find logical/reasonable solutions to my issues with particular religious ideas/issues. I don't have a problem with religious beliefs unless they bring harm to someone.

I know that not all of the scientific knowledge out there is correct, and I do think that someone can possibly be brainwashed by scientific knowledge, too, not just religion. That's why I do my best to verify it. Heck, in middle school I would sometimes question the teacher and find another means of verifying what they were teaching. And I certainly don't think of anyone as stupid; everyone has their own reasons for what they believe or don't believe. Again, my apologies if I have inadvertently made this accusation indirectly.

Thank you.

No problem, I believe two important things, we chose what we want to believe, every subject we ever come across will have endless information on why it is so, then you find there is endless information why it isn't so, we are not around long enough to research everything endlessly, so we sift the information and with or without knowingly being biased we make our decisions..

the other thing is to do with debate, true debate is nearly impossible, it really requires people who have not made their mind up to share ideas and information on a subject, the truth is what you tend to end up with most of the time is either point scoring or people taking cheap shots...

It is incredibly hard to be unbiased, it is even harder to be really honest with your self..
dhardage
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8/4/2015 8:05:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 7:08:51 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?

no I did not reply as it was opinion, in my opinion children from a background of faith are better people...

Uh, no, those are facts that can be easily verified. Again, you deflect instead of discuss them. Makes one wonder.

at 15 you disproved God.

No, I realized that my religion was full of holes and lacked factual backing to its assertions and its assumption of moral authority. Can't prove a negative but still waiting for actual evidence that any god or gods exist.

good for you, it was probably peer pressure all these believers in the religion of evolution making fun of you....

Hardly. I grew up and still live in a very religious community. If anything, I would most likely lose friends if I trumpeted my atheism.
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 8:11:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 8:05:02 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 7:08:51 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?

no I did not reply as it was opinion, in my opinion children from a background of faith are better people...

Uh, no, those are facts that can be easily verified. Again, you deflect instead of discuss them. Makes one wonder.

at 15 you disproved God.

No, I realized that my religion was full of holes and lacked factual backing to its assertions and its assumption of moral authority. Can't prove a negative but still waiting for actual evidence that any god or gods exist.

good for you, it was probably peer pressure all these believers in the religion of evolution making fun of you....

Hardly. I grew up and still live in a very religious community. If anything, I would most likely lose friends if I trumpeted my atheism.

i'm sure you would, self righteousness is a tricky thing, it's weird when you can see what everyone around you is to dumb to recognise...
dhardage
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8/4/2015 8:20:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 8:11:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 8:05:02 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 7:08:51 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?

no I did not reply as it was opinion, in my opinion children from a background of faith are better people...

Uh, no, those are facts that can be easily verified. Again, you deflect instead of discuss them. Makes one wonder.

at 15 you disproved God.

No, I realized that my religion was full of holes and lacked factual backing to its assertions and its assumption of moral authority. Can't prove a negative but still waiting for actual evidence that any god or gods exist.

good for you, it was probably peer pressure all these believers in the religion of evolution making fun of you....

Hardly. I grew up and still live in a very religious community. If anything, I would most likely lose friends if I trumpeted my atheism.

i'm sure you would, self righteousness is a tricky thing, it's weird when you can see what everyone around you is to dumb to recognise...

No, I'd just challenge their dearly held beliefs. It's hard for some people to do the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing since the two are inextricably intertwined in their minds. Thanks to Christian propaganda, atheists are the most distrusted group in the country.
graceofgod
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8/4/2015 8:28:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 8:20:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 8:11:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 8:05:02 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 7:08:51 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:45:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:41:05 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:38:20 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:26:28 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/4/2015 5:24:12 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/4/2015 3:42:46 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
If you've been raised at all, you will be trained in a "way of life" or religion.

A good brainwashing every now and then can be a good thing. It's like running an anti-malware program.

Grow up. Formalized religious instruction is a lot different from learning that you wash your hands before eating.

Brainwashing IS malware, you computer illiterate. It damages the operation of the system and blocks valid inputs from having their normal effects.

you are of course assuming that the religious input is not the healthy software we need and science is the malware designed to take us away from the truth of God...

Anything that discourages critical thinking, the use of logic and reason to make decisions, is damaging to the operation of the human mind. Example: Children raised in very religious homes have a much harder time differentiating fact from fiction. I can find the study if you want it or you can look it up yourself. PS, I have yet to see a war waged in the name of Chemistry, Biology, or any other branch of science. I can't say the same for religion so you decide, which is malware?

again from your point of view, you demonstrate a state of being brainwashed, you cannot see beyond your own bias...

Pot, meet kettle. Actually, I have seen it from both sides. I was raised a Southern Baptist in a religious home. I woke up when I was about 15 and realized just how nonsensical much of what I believed was. Can you say you were raised without religion and found it? If so, what made you change your mind?

I note you did not reply to my statement regarding children having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality and the causes of war. Care to try and refute those?

no I did not reply as it was opinion, in my opinion children from a background of faith are better people...

Uh, no, those are facts that can be easily verified. Again, you deflect instead of discuss them. Makes one wonder.

at 15 you disproved God.

No, I realized that my religion was full of holes and lacked factual backing to its assertions and its assumption of moral authority. Can't prove a negative but still waiting for actual evidence that any god or gods exist.

good for you, it was probably peer pressure all these believers in the religion of evolution making fun of you....

Hardly. I grew up and still live in a very religious community. If anything, I would most likely lose friends if I trumpeted my atheism.

i'm sure you would, self righteousness is a tricky thing, it's weird when you can see what everyone around you is to dumb to recognise...

No, I'd just challenge their dearly held beliefs. It's hard for some people to do the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' thing since the two are inextricably intertwined in their minds. Thanks to Christian propaganda, atheists are the most distrusted group in the country.

thanks to science propaganda it is now it's own god as nothing can be real unless science proves it is, which makes you wonder how anything existed before science gave it permission..

then of course we have the strong arm of science, if you don't believe evolution yu are just backwards and thick... no pressure there then...

and the ultimate, can a science fact every be a fact, science prides itself on a permanent quest for greater knowledge, seems admirable till you realise a science fact can change at any moment when greater knowledge is gained, so it is not a fact ever or even a truth, just our best guess at that moment in time...