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Three things you probably did not know..

SNP1
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8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Three things you probably did not know about Islam.

http://m.youtube.com...

Just watched this video and found it interesting. What are your thoughts?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 4:51:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Three things you probably did not know about Islam.

http://m.youtube.com...

Just watched this video and found it interesting. What are your thoughts?

I have read the Q'ran, and had many discussions with Muslims. Until recent time I had a copy of it also, but it got lost in one of my many home moves, as did my photographs and much of my literature of all types.

Now to the video.

Like many other religious comments it is full of half truths.

For a start it ignores the fact that the Bible is in fact the idea and product of one mind, and was either directed, or dictated by the Creator himself, depending on the passage. It is not the product of any human mind.

Yes it contains much imagery, but that imagery is becoming clearer as, and more importation when, Jehovah wishes it to. For instance it is only in recent years, recent decades in fact, that the book of Revelation has become understandable.

Not that the book has changed, or been altered in any way, but because Jehovah wants it understood, and it's meanings taught in this time, to which it is most relevant.

That is not unusual, but has been the pattern throughout Bible History. For instance it was centuries before the idea of the coming Messiah, first introduced in the Garden of Eden, and told to Satan, was even remotely understood. Many don't understand it still.

The fact is that, as Proverbs 4:18 informs us, Jehovah spreads continually improving light on his word, and for those of us who follow that light the true meanings of scripture become ever clearer.

I can't argue much with what he says about Islam and the Q'ran, and in the fact that people can pick and choose bits they like, and most do, to come up with their own understanding is not unfortunately dissimilar to the way many abuse the Bible.

The Bible however is in fact consistent in expressing Jehovah's demands of us, in different ways. He does, after all, only really have to demands of us, to love him completely, and to love each other as we do ourselves.

However that does entail us making the effort to become the sort of person he loves most of all, so that we can rightly love ourselves "warts and all".

The other thing he gets completely wrong about the Bible is that it is, in fact a book telling a consistent story from Genesis to Revelation. A story develops, in 4 major stages, following on plan. We are near the end of stage 3 now.

The Bible is in fact an accurate history book, despite the fact that must of it was written in advance, and that we are not at the end of it's "history" yet.
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/6/2015 5:16:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I felt that the speaker had a clear agenda. The fact that he spend seven minutes making claims about the Qu'ran without including specific quotes from a translation of the Qu'ran makes me suspicious. I really wouldn't trust someone who is hostile to Islam to educate me about Islam, especially when he isn't providing evidence to back up his claims.
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 5:37:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 5:16:06 PM, sheskew wrote:
I felt that the speaker had a clear agenda. The fact that he spend seven minutes making claims about the Qu'ran without including specific quotes from a translation of the Qu'ran makes me suspicious. I really wouldn't trust someone who is hostile to Islam to educate me about Islam, especially when he isn't providing evidence to back up his claims.

I agree with you, but in fact he was pretty accurate in his statements, and I admit I didn't find him to be anti Muslim, I suppose I would call him more of an apologist for it.

He does, pretty accurately explain why there are so many different types of Muslim, from the peaceful to the fanatical, and accurately explains that each faction can find something with which to "excuse" it's beliefs.

That is why he was so wrong in his description of the Bible.

In fact whilst it is possible to abuse scripture to support almost any belief, and many do, By it's very nature any such usage disrupts the integrity of the whole, and since one of it's major purposes is to provide legal evidence against Satan, it's integrity is vital.

There truly is only one way you can get an accurate idea of what scripture says and that is by accepting that Jehovah's word it cannot contradict itself therefore anything which does raise an apparent contradiction tells you that you have misunderstood something and need to straighten out that misunderstanding, and only scripture viewed as a whole can do that for you.

That is why John 17:3 is such a vital scripture, because unless you learn to understand Jehovah and his son, you will never understand scripture properly.

That is why one of the first areas of scripture that Apostates attacked was the true, unique nature of both Jehovah and his son, something relatively few come to understand properly.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16.
annanicole
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8/6/2015 6:28:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 4:51:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Yes it contains much imagery, but that imagery is becoming clearer as, and more importation when, Jehovah wishes it to. For instance it is only in recent years, recent decades in fact, that the book of Revelation has become understandable.

An absurd statement which implies that John himself did not understand it.

That is not unusual, but has been the pattern throughout Bible History. For instance it was centuries before the idea of the coming Messiah, first introduced in the Garden of Eden, and told to Satan, was even remotely understood. Many don't understand it still.

Provide proof that no one understood it.

The fact is that, as Proverbs 4:18 informs us, Jehovah spreads continually improving light on his word, and for those of us who follow that light the true meanings of scripture become ever clearer.

Prov 4: 18 does not state or mean that God continually illuminates his word down through today.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 7:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 6:28:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:51:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Yes it contains much imagery, but that imagery is becoming clearer as, and more importation when, Jehovah wishes it to. For instance it is only in recent years, recent decades in fact, that the book of Revelation has become understandable.

An absurd statement which implies that John himself did not understand it.He didn't, how could he.

Many people still don't, you for one.

It was not indented to be understood until the things in it were close to happening.

Since the book covered events which have yet to happen, and which it is easy to prove have not happened yet, there was no need for John to understand it either.

Few major prophecies were understood by those who wrote them under inspiration

He may have understood parts of it, but like you he was inevitable all at sea with much of it.

Go on, tell us. How much of the last three chapters do you understand?

Very little I don;t doubt. But if I am wrong by all means disabuse me.

That is not unusual, but has been the pattern throughout Bible History. For instance it was centuries before the idea of the coming Messiah, first introduced in the Garden of Eden, and told to Satan, was even remotely understood. Many don't understand it still.

Provide proof that no one understood it.

Easy. You don't. You are living proof that only those who need to know, do know, and you are currently not of that number.

Again, prove me wrong, please.


The fact is that, as Proverbs 4:18 informs us, Jehovah spreads continually improving light on his word, and for those of us who follow that light the true meanings of scripture become ever clearer.

Prov 4: 18 does not state or mean that God continually illuminates his word down through today.

That is precisely what it does mean. To today and beyond. However I suspect little more will be revealed until after Armageddon has come and gone.

Of course you don't dare believe that because you have been left so far behind in the dark.

As always you speak of what you knot nothing and understand less.
annanicole
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8/6/2015 7:36:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 7:23:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 6:28:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:51:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Yes it contains much imagery, but that imagery is becoming clearer as, and more importation when, Jehovah wishes it to. For instance it is only in recent years, recent decades in fact, that the book of Revelation has become understandable.

An absurd statement which implies that John himself did not understand it.He didn't, how could he.

Many people still don't, you for one.

It was not indented to be understood until the things in it were close to happening.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass ... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand."

Had you written the above passage, you would have said,

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which will come to pass thousands of years from now ... Blessed is he that readeth (even though he won't understand it), and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things (even though they won't have a clue as to the meanings) that are written therein: for the time is notat hand right now."

The fact is that, as Proverbs 4:18 informs us, Jehovah spreads continually improving light on his word, and for those of us who follow that light the true meanings of scripture become ever clearer.

Prov 4: 18 does not state or mean that God continually illuminates his word down through today.

That is precisely what it does mean. To today and beyond. However I suspect little more will be revealed until after Armageddon has come and gone.

No, it doesn't, and it is ridiculous to try to twist it into such an application. If you think it does apply, give us some "new light" that God shed on these matters between about AD 100 and AD 1870. You have 1700+ years to work with, and I say you won't come up with a single thing. And you can't come up with anything after 1870, either.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sheskew
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8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.
2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.
3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.
4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.
5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light? I know at least three other people on this forum alone who profess the same belief that "I am right by definition and the mere fact that you disagree with me renders you not worth listening to". What happens when several of you disagree with each other?
Religious_skeptic
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8/6/2015 7:40:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For a start it ignores the fact that the Bible is in fact the idea and product of one mind, and was either directed, or dictated by the Creator himself, depending on the passage. It is not the product of any human mind.

Exactly the opposite, I wonder how you can actually believe that. The books were written by different people at different times and which books "made the cut" was also decided by mortals and not "God".

The other thing he gets completely wrong about the Bible is that it is, in fact a book telling a consistent story from Genesis to Revelation. A story develops, in 4 major stages, following on plan. We are near the end of stage 3 now.

The Bible is in fact an accurate history book, despite the fact that must of it was written in advance, and that we are not at the end of it's "history" yet.

The Bible is inconsistent throughout.
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 8:40:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 7:40:50 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:
For a start it ignores the fact that the Bible is in fact the idea and product of one mind, and was either directed, or dictated by the Creator himself, depending on the passage. It is not the product of any human mind.

Exactly the opposite, I wonder how you can actually believe that. The books were written by different people at different times and which books "made the cut" was also decided by mortals and not "God".

I can believe it because I can see the evidence in the book itself, as well as in my Knowledge of Jehovah and his son.

Do you think that the God who created the universe could not influence which books "made the cut" and which did not?

Jehovah influenced that decision and he did so in order to maintain the consistency of the story the Bible tells, the consistency of his evidence against Satan and so that we could still find the truth in there despite the limited amount of disruption that men have caused, thanks to Satan's influence on them.

Jehovah is not the fool you take him for, nor is he as powerless as you appear to think.


The other thing he gets completely wrong about the Bible is that it is, in fact a book telling a consistent story from Genesis to Revelation. A story develops, in 4 major stages, following on plan. We are near the end of stage 3 now.

The Bible is in fact an accurate history book, despite the fact that must of it was written in advance, and that we are not at the end of it's "history" yet.

The Bible is inconsistent throughout.

No it is not. It only appears that way because you fail to understand it. When you understand it correctly, it shows itself to be 100% consistent. That is how you know you have understood it the way Jehovah meant it to be understood.

The first three Chapters of Genesis reveal Jehovah's plan, why it has had to be delayed somewhat, and states what Jehovah will do about it.

The last three Chapters of Revelation, tell of the eventual, and inevitable, success of Jehovah's plan, and the results of that for mankind, the earth and all on it.

Everything in between is a faithful account of how the plan developed, and is developing, from one end to the other.

It is even consistent in using three chapters to describe the beginning and the inevitable success.

I have said this hundreds of times, and when taken up on it done it every one. Show me your so-called inconsistencies, and I shall show you what you are misunderstanding and why.

It will be a long way from the first time, and I very much doubt it will be the last, but with Jehovah's help, through his son and holy spirit, it never fails.

But then it wouldn't, because Jehovah never fails.

It really is that simple.
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 9:10:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM, sheskew wrote:
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.

I do, thank to Jehovah, his son, and his spirit.

Why?

Because he wants it understood.

Nor am I alone. Every JW of any age either understands it or is learning to.

2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.

Not quite, though not far off, after all Jehovah promises to supply all who ask him in faith with the wisdom they need to understand. Jehovah does not break his promises. James 1:5-8.

As Paul points out. holy spirit is his communication medium. He uses it to guide his servants.

3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.

How else is Jehovah to save those faithful to him than by giving them access to what he wants them to know precisely when he wants them to know it?

1 Corinthians 2:11-16, tells us we can know it no other way.

1 Corinthians 1:26-30, tells us that he doesn't use the worldly wise to share it with others.

4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.

It is not me you are disagreeing with. I am only the messenger. If you disagree with the message then you are disagreeing with the one with whom the message originates.

I am nothing more than a vessel of clay used for an honourable purpose.

5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

In a sense that is right, because if you have the knowledge of God you can only agree with others to whom it has been granted.

You have to remember it is for his own benefit that Jehovah does that, but also for the benefit of any who we can persuade to look closer at the evidence scripture presents.


Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light?

It is the opposite of self-serving. It means a commitment to serving others, helping them to understand the glorious truths Jehovah is putting in front of us, putting up with the ridicule that such a role brings in it's wake, just as it did for Christ and the Apostles.

No, there is no place for the self-serving in Jehovah's love, they won;t last 5 minutes, figuratively speaking. In Jehovah's ;love is a safe place to be, the safest, but it is often far from comfortable there. One has to sacrifice oneself completely to the task of finding others who want to truly live, and help yet others to do so.

No, that can never be the case, because God's word tells us in many ways that our beliefs must continually be viewed under a critical light.

Jehovah gives his wisdom as a gift, but not one which comes without effort on the part of the receiver, and one which has to be paid for by obedience to Jehovah's word.

I know at least three other people on this forum alone who profess the same belief that "I am right by definition and the mere fact that you disagree with me renders you not worth listening to".

I am not sure which ones you refer to, so I will not comment on that.

I will say however that you are definitely worth listening to, because I need to listen to know where you are going wrong, so I can help you.

What happens when several of you disagree with each other?

We sit down with a bible and discuss it until we can be, as scripture demands, "of one way of thinking". United in thought and teaching with Jehovah, Christ and the Apostles.

If we cannot agree then one of us is wrong and we all have to go away and find out which one, in case it is us, with further prayerful study of the scriptures.

There is, and can only be, one truth. Only Jehovah knows it all, and he can be relied upon to share it with those who really want it, and want it for the right reasons.

Don't forget that when challenged by a Pharisee to tell him which was the most important commandment, Jesus gave him more than he asked for, and gave him the two commandments that fulfil all others:

You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole being.

and

You must love your fellow man as yourself.

Why did Jesus single out those two commands when only asked for one?

Because in truth they are inseparable.

If you truly love Jehovah, you will want to please him, and if you do not love your fellow man, all of them, as much as you love yourself, you cannot please him.

In Jehovah's eyes, all men, no matter what colour, or current nationality, are equal, and should be treated with the same love as Jehovah shows to us.

If the way they behave is what Jehovah hates, then we must hate that also, but never the person themselves.

All of that and much more is to be found in scripture.
Religious_skeptic
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8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Bible is inconsistent throughout.

No it is not. It only appears that way because you fail to understand it. When you understand it correctly, it shows itself to be 100% consistent. That is how you know you have understood it the way Jehovah meant it to be understood.

The first three Chapters of Genesis reveal Jehovah's plan, why it has had to be delayed somewhat, and states what Jehovah will do about it.

The last three Chapters of Revelation, tell of the eventual, and inevitable, success of Jehovah's plan, and the results of that for mankind, the earth and all on it.

Everything in between is a faithful account of how the plan developed, and is developing, from one end to the other.

It is even consistent in using three chapters to describe the beginning and the inevitable success.

I have said this hundreds of times, and when taken up on it done it every one. Show me your so-called inconsistencies, and I shall show you what you are misunderstanding and why.

It will be a long way from the first time, and I very much doubt it will be the last, but with Jehovah's help, through his son and holy spirit, it never fails.

But then it wouldn't, because Jehovah never fails.

It really is that simple.

Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

The 10 Commandments: besides the first few that are all about God's ego, there is "Thou shalt not kill". A good one you would think, until soon after Jehovah is telling Moses to go slaughter another tribe and by the way, feel free to enslave their women and children.

The fact that the Bible explicitly states (in the NT) that certain actions were carried out (ex, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey) so that a prophecy would be fulfilled is rather suspect.

The notion that God is "love" and "goodness" yet won't think twice about having you tortured in hell if deemed unworthy, condones murder in His name, makes Job suffer horribly to prove a point to the devil (that whole story is full of holes). In fact it states right in the Bible that God created good and evil.
MadCornishBiker
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8/6/2015 10:57:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:


Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

Since Adam and Eve were the parents of all, the answer is simple. Not all of Adam and Eve's children stayed in the same area.

Scripture certainly does not say that they all stayed close together, and it does tell us that Adam and Eve had a number of son's and daughters, though it does not tell us how many. They could have had quite a few since they lived to be abut 900 years old

Simple as. The simple explanation is frequently the best.


The 10 Commandments: besides the first few that are all about God's ego, there is "Thou shalt not kill". A good one you would think, until soon after Jehovah is telling Moses to go slaughter another tribe and by the way, feel free to enslave their women and children.

Scripture is economical with the words it sues and frequently does not qualify it's statements, though if you actually think about what you are reading, and get to know Jehovah the qualification become obvious. That is why Jesus made getting to know his father and himself a matter of utmost importance, even down to saying that it is vital for eternal life.

The obvious qualification to "Thou shalt not kill" is that you do not do so on your own authorisation.

Once you get to know what happened, and what is behind it all you begin to realise that the only ones Jehovah had killed, whether from outside Israel or inside, were killed for only one reason.

The protection of the faithful, physically, morally and spiritually.

Jehovah's justice is often slow, but never unjust.

It is simply that sometimes the reasons take a bit of finding, which is where scripture, and thus Jehovah, tests how much truth and justice mean to us. Are we prepared to really dig for it to make sure we find it?


The fact that the Bible explicitly states (in the NT) that certain actions were carried out (ex, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey) so that a prophecy would be fulfilled is rather suspect.

Why?

Just because Jesus went out of his way to fulfil a prophecy means nothing. How do you think most prophecies get fulfilled?

They don;t get fulfilled by chance. They get fulfilled because Jehovah shows his power by manoeuvring people and situations to make sure that they do.

Despite what many will try to tell you, the name Jehovah means "I shall cause to become", and he does, when necessary to ensure that whatever it is really does become what he intends it to do.

Cheating? How can it be when everything is his to do as he will with anyway?

Only Satan can, and does, cheat, frequently, but Jehovah counters it every time..


The notion that God is "love" and "goodness" yet won't think twice about having you tortured in hell if deemed unworthy, condones murder in His name, makes Job suffer horribly to prove a point to the devil (that whole story is full of holes). In fact it states right in the Bible that God created good and evil.

That is another Apostate myth.

Hell is not a place of torment as some would say. Hell (Greek Hades, and Hebrew Sheol), is nothing more than the common grace where all of mankind ends up on death. Eventually death and the grave will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, the very thing that people misrepresent as "Hell". Read the last five or six verses of Revelation 20 to see the truth of that.

Incidentally the Lake of fire is not a place of torment either, Jesus used as an illustration of it, the Valley of Hinnom, where the population of Jerusalem threw all their rubbish to be destroyed because there were permanent, sulphurous fires there. He called it Gehenna for that reason.

Revelation 20 calls Gehenna, or the Lake of fire "The second death" because it is a death from which there is no resurrection.

You are right, a true God of Love, or Goodness would never do that, and scripture makes it clear that Jehovah is just such a God. Not only that he is a God of justice, and all who sin, and certainly at the moment that is all of us, no matter how hard we try not to, pay the price for that sin by dying. God would not ask them to pay twice for the same sin. That would violate his own law, and he never does that.

As always, it is not scripture that is inconsistent, but man's failure to understand it, or represent what it says accurately that makes it appear so.

My favourite example of that is Genesis 1, so frequently read with no understanding, but if read correctly actually fits in with what we know about the development of the earth and life on it.

Some say that verse 14 marks the creation of the sun moon and stars, and yet verse 1 tells us they were already created, verse 3 confirms the light from the sun starting to reach the surface of the earth, therefore verse 14 simply cannot be saying what men make it appear to say.

Simple logic frequently provides the correct answer.

On that subject.

How could a humble shepherd like Moses, even if he was educated in the courts of the Pharaoh, give such an accurate, if limited in detail, account of creation?

There really is only one way that information could have come to any man before this last century or so.

Let reason and logic be your guide through scripture, don't just swallow what anyone tells you, not even me. Always test it out for yourself.

Incidentally:

Genesis 21 tells us that some water was taken up into the high atmosphere.

It also tells us that it was brought down again in the flood.

Those two facts alone explain much that we struggle to understand:

1: What caused the earth's crust to break up and the single land mass to split into the continents we see today (which are still moving). Genesis 10:25-26 describes just that happening after the flood).

2: Over the last 100 years or so, a fairly significant number of mammoths have been unearthed in the permafrost. Many appear to have been crushed by a great weight from above, whilst still eating, and then instantly frozen. What could have fallen on them from above in a flat plains land?

3: Since they appear to have been rapid frozen, such that the meat on them was 100% fresh, and much had been eaten by those who found one or two of the carcasses to prove that fact. What could have caused such a catastrophic, and almost instant climate change?

4: What could have been heavy enough that, when it split the crust, some parts of it were rotated instantly through 90 degrees? In fact how could such extreme rotation be caused in the first place except by something heavy falling from high in the atmosphere? There has been no sign of a meteor strike in those areas, all, apparently in the high Northern latitudes. Geologists still cannot explain it.

In fact the flood could explain all of these if we ignore sciences dubious datings.

Why dubious datings?

Because they are trying to measure something with no real knowledge where the other end of the tape measure lies.

The flood also raises a possible explanation as to why that might be, if you really think deeply about it.

Inconsistent?

No, only mankind is inconsistent, and far dumber than we wish to believe we are, in comparison to the intellect that created all of this, and continues to care for it.

No, the Bible is an amazing repository of knowledge and information we can get nowhere else, and cone you really start to understand it, it opens up to you like a beautiful flower.

Sorry, but that is how it is, like it or not, accept it or not. No-one can change it, and believe me Satan has spent more that 6,000 years trying.
kjw47
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8/6/2015 11:03:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:
The Bible is inconsistent throughout.

No it is not. It only appears that way because you fail to understand it. When you understand it correctly, it shows itself to be 100% consistent. That is how you know you have understood it the way Jehovah meant it to be understood.

The first three Chapters of Genesis reveal Jehovah's plan, why it has had to be delayed somewhat, and states what Jehovah will do about it.

The last three Chapters of Revelation, tell of the eventual, and inevitable, success of Jehovah's plan, and the results of that for mankind, the earth and all on it.

Everything in between is a faithful account of how the plan developed, and is developing, from one end to the other.

It is even consistent in using three chapters to describe the beginning and the inevitable success.

I have said this hundreds of times, and when taken up on it done it every one. Show me your so-called inconsistencies, and I shall show you what you are misunderstanding and why.

It will be a long way from the first time, and I very much doubt it will be the last, but with Jehovah's help, through his son and holy spirit, it never fails.

But then it wouldn't, because Jehovah never fails.

It really is that simple.

Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

The 10 Commandments: besides the first few that are all about God's ego, there is "Thou shalt not kill". A good one you would think, until soon after Jehovah is telling Moses to go slaughter another tribe and by the way, feel free to enslave their women and children.

The fact that the Bible explicitly states (in the NT) that certain actions were carried out (ex, Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey) so that a prophecy would be fulfilled is rather suspect.

The notion that God is "love" and "goodness" yet won't think twice about having you tortured in hell if deemed unworthy, condones murder in His name, makes Job suffer horribly to prove a point to the devil (that whole story is full of holes). In fact it states right in the Bible that God created good and evil.

Gods word has proved itself true---archeologist have proved much of the ot true. There are things in the ot about outer space no mortal could possibly have known, Rev 13 prophecised nearly 2000 years ago has been passing before the worlds eyes as we speak. A lot of revelation is past.
False religions teach eternal suffering, they do not know God.
You are mistaken about Job--satan challenged God to his face in front of the spirit beings--he said no mortal would listen to God if God didn't give them much and totally protect them--that issue along with the issue raised in Eden against God are being proven, once and for all time so they will never brought up again. Everyone who knows God, knows every decision God makes is the right decision. His name is Jehovah.
DanneJeRusse
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8/6/2015 11:26:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 10:57:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:


Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

Since Adam and Eve were the parents of all, the answer is simple. Not all of Adam and Eve's children stayed in the same area.

Scripture certainly does not say that they all stayed close together, and it does tell us that Adam and Eve had a number of son's and daughters, though it does not tell us how many. They could have had quite a few since they lived to be abut 900 years old

Simple as. The simple explanation is frequently the best.

LOL. Still just making up stuff as you go along, I see.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Religious_skeptic
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8/7/2015 12:12:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 10:57:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:


Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

Since Adam and Eve were the parents of all, the answer is simple. Not all of Adam and Eve's children stayed in the same area.

Scripture certainly does not say that they all stayed close together, and it does tell us that Adam and Eve had a number of son's and daughters, though it does not tell us how many. They could have had quite a few since they lived to be abut 900 years old

Simple as. The simple explanation is frequently the best.

There is no mention of A&E having other children.
If you really think the simple explanation is the best, you wouldn't believe this nonsense (sorry, but I have to tell it like it is).

The 10 Commandments: besides the first few that are all about God's ego, there is "Thou shalt not kill". A good one you would think, until soon after Jehovah is telling Moses to go slaughter another tribe and by the way, feel free to enslave their women and children.

The obvious qualification to "Thou shalt not kill" is that you do not do so on your own authorisation.

Ah, I see. Makes sense I suppose, I mean how else could you have the moral authority of the universe condoning rape and murder?


Just because Jesus went out of his way to fulfil a prophecy means nothing. How do you think most prophecies get fulfilled?

They don;t get fulfilled by chance. They get fulfilled because Jehovah shows his power by manoeuvring people and situations to make sure that they do.

No, they knew the signs of the prophecy and went about fulfilling them so people would believe it. Strange though how the Jews (who made the prophecy) did not believe it.

Despite what many will try to tell you, the name Jehovah means "I shall cause to become", and he does, when necessary to ensure that whatever it is really does become what he intends it to do.

No it doesn't. Jehovah is the Anglicized version of "IHVH" which translates to "That which is, That which was and That which will be". Which really does means something profound. (I am not an atheist or a materialist by the way, this is an example of wisdom in the Bible that is completely lost through translation, which no one ever thinks about. Ever wonder why there are so many variations of God/Lord/Father etc. in the Bible? Because at different times they refer to different aspects of "God". Same reason people live hundreds of years - look up Gematria.)

You are right, a true God of Love, or Goodness would never do that, and scripture makes it clear that Jehovah is just such a God. Not only that he is a God of justice, and all who sin, and certainly at the moment that is all of us, no matter how hard we try not to, pay the price for that sin by dying. God would not ask them to pay twice for the same sin. That would violate his own law, and he never does that.

Your God is not a God of justice, otherwise it would not be possible to live a life like a Hitler or Stalin then have it all wiped clean on your deathbed if you repent. "Forget about those 100 million people you butchered, now you like me so all is forgiven." WTF?

Let reason and logic be your guide through scripture, don't just swallow what anyone tells you, not even me. Always test it out for yourself.
That would be my advice to you. If you do nothing else, you should face up to the fact that your mind is fixed now, ossified into believing a certain set of dogma and any facts that come your way will be dismissed accordingly.
Outplayz
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8/7/2015 12:46:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Three things you probably did not know about Islam.

http://m.youtube.com...

Just watched this video and found it interesting. What are your thoughts?

You have found a video that speaks truth. I come from a "muslim" family that is smart enough to see this. Now, i never down spiritual people; now or in the past. I think the message of peace should be taken from every religion. However, the author is right. This is not ultimately a religion of peace if you look at it literally. That is what isis is doing right now. People think they are not following it correctly ... but, their leaders are all PHD's in Islamic studies! ... they know what they are doing, justified chaos. Why do you think everyone there is not up in arms? These people shot someone for pictures. Don't you think they would be more up in arms if an entire group is insulting and making their religion look bad? This is going to be an eventual problem. An eventual war ... which the elites are probably puppet'ing as we speak.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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8/7/2015 12:56:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 8:40:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 7:40:50 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:
For a start it ignores the fact that the Bible is in fact the idea and product of one mind, and was either directed, or dictated by the Creator himself, depending on the passage. It is not the product of any human mind.

Exactly the opposite, I wonder how you can actually believe that. The books were written by different people at different times and which books "made the cut" was also decided by mortals and not "God".

I can believe it because I can see the evidence in the book itself, as well as in my Knowledge of Jehovah and his son.

Why is it that ... every time i talk with a religious person, they say i am quoting stuff from their "pick a religion"

Yes, you see truths in the book itself bc these truths were already there without these books. A smart enough human thought of them, and shared. You already are these truths. You find evidence in this book bc it correlates to what you already are ... a good person.

Staying on topic. Even an Islamic person can quote the good from their religion and mean it ... bc they are a good person.

What is bad about religion? Literalists or simply ... bad people. They can justify evil desires through these books.

So, i always argue religion is good. It should stay bc it is love. People getting together at church and feeling connected ... all of which are good things. However, i've been swayed from its organization. Its organization and literalism ... that this is the only truth ... is poison! and must be (i want to say eradicated, but i will be nice) reformed into what we all are (or aren't) simply spiritual. No ego necessary. Just a healthy debate between spiritual and non-spiritual. This is how we can intellectually move forward, not with this circus we have now.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/7/2015 6:34:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 7:23:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 6:28:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:51:46 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:

Yes it contains much imagery, but that imagery is becoming clearer as, and more importation when, Jehovah wishes it to. For instance it is only in recent years, recent decades in fact, that the book of Revelation has become understandable.

An absurd statement which implies that John himself did not understand it.He didn't, how could he.

Many people still don't, you for one.

It was not indented to be understood until the things in it were close to happening.

[ Prologue ] The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw"that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. ...

LMFAO
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
RuvDraba
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8/7/2015 7:17:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM, sheskew wrote:
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.
2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.
3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.
4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.
5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light?

It's self-serving, Sheskew, but it's the self-serving posture of a malignantly conceited church that insists on the sole authority of its own, divinely-inspired theology, asserting such unrelenting control over the minds of its congregants that they are not permitted independent thought, and to which they must submit completely, under threat of ejection.

It's an intellectual travesty of obscurity and inaccountability, and its ideology looks overweeningly arrogant until you realise that its messengers are victims as well as abusers. I feel for MCB in particular, since he upholds that faith while being denied its community. It's the worst of both worlds for him, and nobody should be made to suffer in this fashion.
POPOO5560
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8/7/2015 9:52:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 4:17:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Three things you probably did not know about Islam.

http://m.youtube.com...

Just watched this video and found it interesting. What are your thoughts?

more garbage. lies and distortions covered in generalizations and above all no 1 verse in the Quran or Hadith or any Islamic scholar mentioned. what a failure. his nubmer 3 talks about "deception" and gives the example of muslim charities funding "terrorists" LOL what a joke statistically we muslims are the leading the numbers we can boast of the highest rate charity compare to any group u pick atheists christians jews..

these smelly people try the best to spread hate against muslims but instead they attracting more people to Islam every time they exposed.
Never fart near dog
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/7/2015 11:57:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:56:57 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/6/2015 8:40:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 7:40:50 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:
For a start it ignores the fact that the Bible is in fact the idea and product of one mind, and was either directed, or dictated by the Creator himself, depending on the passage. It is not the product of any human mind.

Exactly the opposite, I wonder how you can actually believe that. The books were written by different people at different times and which books "made the cut" was also decided by mortals and not "God".

I can believe it because I can see the evidence in the book itself, as well as in my Knowledge of Jehovah and his son.

Why is it that ... every time i talk with a religious person, they say i am quoting stuff from their "pick a religion"

Yes, you see truths in the book itself bc these truths were already there without these books. A smart enough human thought of them, and shared. You already are these truths. You find evidence in this book bc it correlates to what you already are ... a good person.

Staying on topic. Even an Islamic person can quote the good from their religion and mean it ... bc they are a good person.

What is bad about religion? Literalists or simply ... bad people. They can justify evil desires through these books.

So, i always argue religion is good. It should stay bc it is love. People getting together at church and feeling connected ... all of which are good things. However, i've been swayed from its organization. Its organization and literalism ... that this is the only truth ... is poison! and must be (i want to say eradicated, but i will be nice) reformed into what we all are (or aren't) simply spiritual. No ego necessary. Just a healthy debate between spiritual and non-spiritual. This is how we can intellectually move forward, not with this circus we have now.

All I can do is answer for myself.

What I post on here is the truth from scripture. Not a "Pick and mix" of scripture, but the whole book, from Genesis to Revelation.

Religion only has a lasting value if it is the right one, because there can only be one truth, so no two can have more than parts of it, if any.
MadCornishBiker
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8/7/2015 12:04:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 7:17:30 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM, sheskew wrote:
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.
2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.
3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.
4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.
5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light?

It's self-serving, Sheskew, but it's the self-serving posture of a malignantly conceited church that insists on the sole authority of its own, divinely-inspired theology, asserting such unrelenting control over the minds of its congregants that they are not permitted independent thought, and to which they must submit completely, under threat of ejection.

It's an intellectual travesty of obscurity and inaccountability, and its ideology looks overweeningly arrogant until you realise that its messengers are victims as well as abusers. I feel for MCB in particular, since he upholds that faith while being denied its community. It's the worst of both worlds for him, and nobody should be made to suffer in this fashion.

Not in teh least true, fortunately for those who prefer the truth, however uncomfortable, to satisfying, but useless, fantasy.

Why would God have more than one organisation teaching different things? There is only one Truth, and Jehovah is the God of it, therefore there can only be one organisation teaching that one truth.

Only Satan, and those who follow him inadvertently or not, wishes to confuse.

Our job as humans is to work out which one is the right one, and thus save our eternal lives, and hopefully that of as many as will listen to us when we accept the commission Christ gave to all his followers.

There is absolutely nothing malignant about the JWs. They teach what Christ, the Apostles, and scripture from Genesis to Revelation teach. They have no real choice, since it is their commission from Christ himself, and thus from his father also.

Your opinion is your prerogative, but the one you express above is based far more on ignorance and lies than it is on truth.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/7/2015 12:29:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:04:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/7/2015 7:17:30 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM, sheskew wrote:
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.
2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.
3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.
4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.
5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light?

It's self-serving, Sheskew, but it's the self-serving posture of a malignantly conceited church that insists on the sole authority of its own, divinely-inspired theology, asserting such unrelenting control over the minds of its congregants that they are not permitted independent thought, and to which they must submit completely, under threat of ejection.

It's an intellectual travesty of obscurity and inaccountability, and its ideology looks overweeningly arrogant until you realise that its messengers are victims as well as abusers. I feel for MCB in particular, since he upholds that faith while being denied its community. It's the worst of both worlds for him, and nobody should be made to suffer in this fashion.

Not in teh least true, fortunately for those who prefer the truth, however uncomfortable, to satisfying, but useless, fantasy.

Why would God have more than one organisation teaching different things?

I understand the rationale, MCB, and the history of how it came about. Unfortunately, it's based on some unchallenged, and I believe likely false assumptions. In particular, the Protestant tenet of sola scriptura collapses if scripture is vague, ignorant, in error, or interpreted unaccountably.

(That doesn't make the Catholic approach any better, however, if church leaders are ignorant and in error too.)

But the problem with asserting authority while hoping that sola scriptura works is that it can easily produce -- and has produced -- tyrannical, cruel, unaccountable, opaque, and quite deranged fundamentalist zealotry.

In fairness to the JWs, they're not the only ones doing that. But they're among the most grandiose, paranoid, and hard to reach.

I realise that you yourself are beyond reach, MCB, and perfectly happy with your postage-stamp ideology. But I weep for every bright and sensitive child raised into a JW family, just as I mourn for whatever was done to you back when your heart was bigger and your mind broader.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/7/2015 12:33:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 11:57:39 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
All I can do is answer for myself.
You accuse and judge everybody. You liar.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/7/2015 12:36:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:12:23 AM, Religious_skeptic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 10:57:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/6/2015 9:44:25 PM, Religious_skeptic wrote:


Where to start then?
We could begin in Genesis where after Cain kills Able he goes away to Nod and marries. So there's Adam and Eve and Cain and Able and then suddenly a whole other populated area.

Since Adam and Eve were the parents of all, the answer is simple. Not all of Adam and Eve's children stayed in the same area.

Scripture certainly does not say that they all stayed close together, and it does tell us that Adam and Eve had a number of son's and daughters, though it does not tell us how many. They could have had quite a few since they lived to be abut 900 years old

Simple as. The simple explanation is frequently the best.

There is no mention of A&E having other children.

Actually there is.

Genesis 5:3-5
YLT(i) 3 And Adam liveth an hundred and thirty years, and begetteth a son in his likeness, according to his image, and calleth his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam after his begetting Seth are eight hundred years, and he begetteth sons and daughters. 5 And all the days of Adam which he lived are nine hundred and thirty years, and he dieth.

There is no mention of the numbers of each, just that in his last 130 years he fathered both sons and daughters.

If you really think the simple explanation is the best, you wouldn't believe this nonsense (sorry, but I have to tell it like it is).

Never apologise for speaking truth as you see it, not to me anyway.

However, you are wrong, the truth in scripture is a lot more simple than people realise, and to me it has become elementary, and as far from rubbish than you currently believe, simply because you do not know any better.

Your current opinion can only be based on ignorance, that is not truly capable of honest dispute. What is, and what I cannot judge, is whether or not that ignorance is deliberate, either out of fear or something else.


The 10 Commandments: besides the first few that are all about God's ego, there is "Thou shalt not kill". A good one you would think, until soon after Jehovah is telling Moses to go slaughter another tribe and by the way, feel free to enslave their women and children.

The obvious qualification to "Thou shalt not kill" is that you do not do so on your own authorisation.

Ah, I see. Makes sense I suppose, I mean how else could you have the moral authority of the universe condoning rape and murder?

He has never condoned rape, simple as. There is not one mention in scripture of him having done so. Yes he ordered his people to marry captured women, but what makes you sure that the women weren't amenable to that as an alternative to starvation, which would have been inevitable had they not married, and simply been left behind?

You judge Jehovah unfairly, and the women concerned also. They knew their alternatives and had the sense to take the best one, which not only meant they got fed, but that they had Jehovah's protection over them as well.



Just because Jesus went out of his way to fulfil a prophecy means nothing. How do you think most prophecies get fulfilled?

They don;t get fulfilled by chance. They get fulfilled because Jehovah shows his power by manoeuvring people and situations to make sure that they do.

No, they knew the signs of the prophecy and went about fulfilling them so people would believe it. Strange though how the Jews (who made the prophecy) did not believe it.

There have been some examples of that, yes, but most were of Jehovah's influence. I can guarantee you that my intent is not to fulfil prophecy, though I am all the same, and so are you. whether you know it or not.

However, it would be more beneficial to you to change prophecies.

As an instance, Isaiah prophesied that Cyrus would capture Babylon, about 100 years before he was even born.

Whilst it is true that he read that prophecy, and was so impressed that he went out and did it exactly the way teh prophecy said.

However, what was it that impressed him about the prophecy so much that he fulfilled it?

How did his parents know to call him Cyrus in fulfilment of the prophecy? He know there could only be one way.

His action also fulfilled the prophecy about when Babylon would fall, and there is no way he could have known that one.


Despite what many will try to tell you, the name Jehovah means "I shall cause to become", and he does, when necessary to ensure that whatever it is really does become what he intends it to do.

No it doesn't. Jehovah is the Anglicized version of "IHVH" which translates to "That which is, That which was and That which will be". Which really does means something profound. (I am not an atheist or a materialist by the way, this is an example of wisdom in the Bible that is completely lost through translation, which no one ever thinks about. Ever wonder why there are so many variations of God/Lord/Father etc. in the Bible? Because at different times they refer to different aspects of "God". Same reason people live hundreds of years - look up Gematria.)

In fact you are not quite correct in that. The name is purely future tense.

I know precisely why there are so many variants of God/Lord Father, basically two reasons.

1: The worst reason being that false translators have deliberately replaced Jehovah's name (yes it is Anglicised, you are right there) with Lord.

2: As scripture tells us, there are many god,s and many lords, and the appropriate form is used in the appropriate places.

What I do wonder is why so many like you appear to insist that words which have a number of different meanings can only have one in scripture, the one they themselves choose. To me it is much more logical to work out which one actually fits.


You are right, a true God of Love, or Goodness would never do that, and scripture makes it clear that Jehovah is just such a God. Not only that he is a God of justice, and all who sin, and certainly at the moment that is all of us, no matter how hard we try not to, pay the price for that sin by dying. God would not ask them to pay twice for the same sin. That would violate his own law, and he never does that.

Your God is not a God of justice, otherwise it would not be possible to live a life like a Hitler or Stalin then have it all wiped clean on your deathbed if you repent. "Forget about those 100 million people you butchered, now you like me so all is forgiven." WTF?

All sin is the same to Jehovah, and we cannot second guess him as to which ones will be deemed worthy of a resurrection and which will not.

However I trust his judgement implicitly.

Hitler for instance was mentally ill, and those close to him used that illness to manipulate him. Should he be punished for being mentally ill? How much of what he did was directly related to that illness?

Only Jehovah knows the truth of that, and as I say, I trust his judgement. Therefore I will happily accept whoever he judges worthy.


Let reason and logic be your guide through scripture, don't just swallow what anyone tells you, not even me. Always test it out for yourself.
That would be my advice to you. If you do nothing else, you should face up to the fact that your mind is fixed now, ossified into believing a certain set of dogma and any facts that come your way will be dismissed accordingly.

That's OK then because that is precisely what I do.

I do not believe Dogma, only scripture, but it seems you are the one ossified in dogma, and false dogma at that.
MadCornishBiker
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8/7/2015 12:37:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:33:56 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/7/2015 11:57:39 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
All I can do is answer for myself.
You accuse and judge everybody. You liar.

Accuse yes, judge no, you obviously are unaware of the different applications of the word "judge".

Still I can't expect you to understand that, since you are too busy judging me, lol, and wrongly at that.
bulproof
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8/7/2015 12:43:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:37:54 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:33:56 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/7/2015 11:57:39 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
All I can do is answer for myself.
You accuse and judge everybody. You liar.

Accuse yes, judge no, you obviously are unaware of the different applications of the word "judge".

Still I can't expect you to understand that, since you are too busy judging me, lol, and wrongly at that.

I understand the difference, it's the stupids who don't.
You poor silly indoctrinated child.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
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8/7/2015 12:53:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:29:34 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:04:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/7/2015 7:17:30 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/6/2015 7:40:19 PM, sheskew wrote:
MCB, your position is a challenging one to accept. Essentially you're telling me,

1. I, MCB, understand this thing.
2. Understanding can only come through divine revelation.
3. Thus, I have access to divine, infallible truth. God wants me to know what's what.
4. If you disagree with me in any way, you must not have received divine revelation. You are therefore not in possession of the truth, your positions can be dismissed without examination.
5. If God wants you to know more, he'll give you a revelation of knowledge. The evidence of this is that you will begin to agree with me.

Can you see how self-serving this is, and how this complex of beliefs shields you from ever considering your ideas in a critical light?

It's self-serving, Sheskew, but it's the self-serving posture of a malignantly conceited church that insists on the sole authority of its own, divinely-inspired theology, asserting such unrelenting control over the minds of its congregants that they are not permitted independent thought, and to which they must submit completely, under threat of ejection.

It's an intellectual travesty of obscurity and inaccountability, and its ideology looks overweeningly arrogant until you realise that its messengers are victims as well as abusers. I feel for MCB in particular, since he upholds that faith while being denied its community. It's the worst of both worlds for him, and nobody should be made to suffer in this fashion.

Not in teh least true, fortunately for those who prefer the truth, however uncomfortable, to satisfying, but useless, fantasy.

Why would God have more than one organisation teaching different things?

I understand the rationale, MCB, and the history of how it came about. Unfortunately, it's based on some unchallenged, and I believe likely false assumptions. In particular, the Protestant tenet of sola scriptura collapses if scripture is vague, ignorant, in error, or interpreted unaccountably.

On the contrary, it is challenged all the time, I personally challenge it daily, I have to, because scripture itself orders me to do so.

I know I will convince few of what scripture truly says, scripture itself tells me that also, but unless I can convince myself beyond any doubt whatever, why would I expect to even make one person curious enough to check it all out for themselves?

The JWs also follow that command, which is why their beliefs have changed as and when it has been necessary to bring them in line with scripture..

That is why they never ceased examining scripture to ensure they have got it right, even down to constant revision of their own translation to being it more and more into harmony with itself.


(That doesn't make the Catholic approach any better, however, if church leaders are ignorant and in error too.)

That is true, which is why the JWs constantly try to improve their understanding, as do I.

We know- that people's eternal lives rely on us getting it right, and the only ways to do that are to:

1: Rely on Jehovah and his son for their help and guidance.

2: Constantly check our understanding, and correct any errors we find in that understanding.


But the problem with asserting authority while hoping that sola scriptura works is that it can easily produce -- and has produced -- tyrannical, cruel, unaccountable, opaque, and quite deranged fundamentalist zealotry.

It can only produce tyrannical ones if they insist on reading it wrongly.

Scripture does not in fact permit such use.

However zealousness is important. Once one has found the truth one has to be zealous about sharing it. Christ was zealous for everything to do with his father, the Apostles equally so, and all who follow Christ must match that zealousness as far as they can. If you do not care enough about the eternal lives of others, you are no true follower of Jehovah and his son.


In fairness to the JWs, they're not the only ones doing that. But they're among the most grandiose, paranoid, and hard to reach.

They are far from grandiose, lol, I have never met a more humble, honest and loving people. However, they are what they are, and to deny it would be false modesty, which is only arrogance in disguise.


I realise that you yourself are beyond reach, MCB, and perfectly happy with your postage-stamp ideology. But I weep for every bright and sensitive child raised into a JW family, just as I mourn for whatever was done to you back when your heart was bigger and your mind broader.

Of course I am beyond reach by any other than Jehovah, his word is my guide, my "road map" through life, and my law book. When you have been given the truth there is, as Peter said to Jesus, simply nowhere else to go, other than to reach out to others and try to share the beauties of what I have been given.

Don;t fall for any of Satan's tricks.

He wants everyone to turn away from serving Jehovah, and is having too much success as it is.