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Is God benevolent?

janesix
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8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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8/6/2015 6:09:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

If God did everything exactly as described in the bible(particularly the Old Testament), then he is by no means a benevolent being.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
janesix
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8/6/2015 9:12:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 6:09:25 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

If God did everything exactly as described in the bible(particularly the Old Testament), then he is by no means a benevolent being.

It's not just about the Bible. Any God would have had to create evil, simply because it exists. That's only logical.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/6/2015 10:53:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
People describe evil as if it is a physical thing. But evil is a description of the lack of good.

Think of it like this. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness isn't anything tangible. It is a description of the lack of light. This same description applies with the relationship between good and evil
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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8/6/2015 11:00:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 10:53:58 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
People describe evil as if it is a physical thing. But evil is a description of the lack of good.

Not true, a lack of good is merely neutral. One must actually apply evil, it simply doesn't appear where there is a lack of good.

Think of it like this. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness isn't anything tangible. It is a description of the lack of light. This same description applies with the relationship between good and evil

False analogy. Evil must be applied, it simply doesn't appear when there is a lack of good in the same way dark appears with lack of light.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/6/2015 11:12:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is trendy for some to treat good and evil as opposite sides of a coin, as though they were physical forces like positive and electric negative charges. A little thought shows that this is not the case. Living creatures take actions. We agree collectively in our societies which of those actions are appropriate and desirable, and which are inappropriate and undesirable. We may use ancient holy books to categorize actions, or consensus opinion, or defer to an individual in authority, but by whatever method, we define a set of actions as "good" and another set as "evil".

If an objective morality exists and we are created by an omniscient god, then that god knew ahead of time which behaviors were good and which were evil. If that god was all-powerful, he could have created us in such a way that we would be incapable of evil actions. For example, if we interpet Genesis literally, he could have placed a "Tree of the Knowledge of Only Good" in the garden of Eden, rather than a tree with the knowledge of both good and evil. Because God knew the consequences of his actions beforehand and chose to allow evil into the world anyhow, he cannot be maximally benevolent. He is morally culpable, just as you would be if you left a loaded gun on the coffee table, knowing that your small toddler would play with the gun and be killed.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/6/2015 11:13:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:00:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/6/2015 10:53:58 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
People describe evil as if it is a physical thing. But evil is a description of the lack of good.

Not true, a lack of good is merely neutral. One must actually apply evil, it simply doesn't appear where there is a lack of good.

Think of it like this. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness isn't anything tangible. It is a description of the lack of light. This same description applies with the relationship between good and evil

False analogy. Evil must be applied, it simply doesn't appear when there is a lack of good in the same way dark appears with lack of light.

I wasn't clear in my description. Evil is the lack of good, the lack of what would be morally correct to do. When you do an action that was not good, it is then evil. This type of thinking takes an understanding of what "good" is in accordance to the Bible, not in accordance of what people want it to be. I was trying to give an understandable analogy because this kind of concept can be confusing.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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8/6/2015 11:24:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:13:08 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:00:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/6/2015 10:53:58 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
People describe evil as if it is a physical thing. But evil is a description of the lack of good.

Not true, a lack of good is merely neutral. One must actually apply evil, it simply doesn't appear where there is a lack of good.

Think of it like this. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness isn't anything tangible. It is a description of the lack of light. This same description applies with the relationship between good and evil

False analogy. Evil must be applied, it simply doesn't appear when there is a lack of good in the same way dark appears with lack of light.

I wasn't clear in my description. Evil is the lack of good, the lack of what would be morally correct to do. When you do an action that was not good, it is then evil. This type of thinking takes an understanding of what "good" is in accordance to the Bible, not in accordance of what people want it to be. I was trying to give an understandable analogy because this kind of concept can be confusing.

It's not confusing at all, the lack of good is not evil. An act must be applied in order for there to be evil, it does not simply appear due to a lack of good. If a person walks into a group of people and does not do any good, that does not mean he is doing evil.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/6/2015 11:48:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's make it concrete. Let's say that today I go to a homeless shelter and deliver food and offer free job skills training. I accept no pay for this and do it only out of a desire to help the homeless. This is a good action.

Let's say instead that I cook up a new kind of dangerous, addictive drug with a chemistry kit in my bathtub. I go to a homeless shelter and give the homeless crack pipes and my new drug, hoping they'll become addicted, sicken and die. This is an evil action.

Let's say instead that I sit at my computer in my underwear, randomly surf the web, and eat peanut butter right out of the jar. That would be a bit pathetic but it's neither good nor evil.

We do not need crack pipes and addictive drugs in the world to understand that helping the homeless is good. Nor does helping the homeless require the production of drugs and crack pipes as some sort of universe-balancing response. We could easily imagine a universe in which the omnipotent God beamed Holy Spirit messages into my brain that caused me to only select the good or apathetic option, and never the evil one.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,266
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8/7/2015 1:38:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

I would like to ask this. If there is an immortal intelligence called god, how can it know evil? How can you be evil to something that cannot die? So, evil exists where one can die ... lose something they love... so next...

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

I am 100% with you. Evil is our responsibility to deal with for it can exist in our realm or world. But, we are still infants. Our first step would be figuring out what evil is ... do you know what it is? Is it the mentally sick or the mentally sane that push the ones with a lower capacity over the edge? If i have one view that hates god ... am i evil even though all i give the world is love? Is the person the happens to be born attracted to both sexes evil bc he would rather love a he? Or, let's take it further sexually, am i evil for being attracted to post-pubescent girls? Really, i can't find the definition of evil. I see it in everyone and i think it is justified. We deserve evil until we can figure out what it is ... and, i don't mean to boast, but i can see it. I can see everything that is holding us back from benevolence. I am being overly confident and i know i can be proven wrong on some of my views, so go ahead. I am humble enough to say i am wrong when i learn that i am ... something most fail to do or even want to do. I will admit when i am wrong when i see it affecting another or can see the effects on the other are severe ... mental evil ... and the physical evil is just invading another's consent maliciously or in general with bad intent. What else is evil? The definition is in acceptance of what everyone is.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother. Im only a humble Son of God who is lucky He Saved me from Death.
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
JAMES 1

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/7/2015 1:48:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:00:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/6/2015 10:53:58 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
People describe evil as if it is a physical thing. But evil is a description of the lack of good.

Not true, a lack of good is merely neutral. One must actually apply evil, it simply doesn't appear where there is a lack of good.

Think of it like this. Darkness is the absence of light. Darkness isn't anything tangible. It is a description of the lack of light. This same description applies with the relationship between good and evil

False analogy. Evil must be applied, it simply doesn't appear when there is a lack of good in the same way dark appears with lack of light.

God did not Create Evil. he created Mankind and gave us Free Will. sometimes we choose to use this freedom to do Evil. its that simple. I never understand why so many atheists use the problem of Evil as a claim against a all-powerful God. the answer is as easy as turning your life over to Him so He can help you get your soul back, my angry freind.
Will you let me help you do this?
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Outplayz
Posts: 1,266
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8/7/2015 1:48:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Isn't lust a gift? Pleasure. Or, is this only talking up a lust that would hurt another?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.

Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/7/2015 1:52:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:38:17 AM, Outplayz wrote:
If there is an immortal intelligence called god, how can it know evil? How can you be evil to something that cannot die?

Inflicting mental or physical suffering for its own sake is evil. An immortal mind can know mental suffering. Also, I'd have trouble with the idea that an omniscient mind can be ignorant of something.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/7/2015 1:55:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer. its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has. it also gives the human condition to much credit. speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.
God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/7/2015 1:56:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said to him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and get you into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of.

I hate to open this can of worms, since it may well lead is down a rabbit hole of arguing when tempting is really tempting, or exactly what the word "tempt" means. But this is germane to the discussion, because here we have God offering Abraham the choice of performing an evil act or behaving disobediently towards God. It certainly is something that anyone claiming God's omni-benevolence needs to answer.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/7/2015 2:01:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:48:51 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Isn't lust a gift? Pleasure. Or, is this only talking up a lust that would hurt another?

I think lust in this passage refers to chasing after sin in general, not necessarily just sex.

But yes, there is a healthy lust and an unhealthy one, always a balance to everything.

Jesus raised the bar with lust because He knew that the thoughts we entertain would bear fruit, whether that be good or bad fruit, bad fruit destroys.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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8/7/2015 2:01:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:55:02 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer.
its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has.

And yet thus far remains unchallenged. Belittling the power that God really has is something He does on a regular, that is what I was referring to regarding socio economic class. Its amazing how God helps so many babies in Europe and the Americans, but so many babies in Africa die of typhoid and diphtheria. Does the pattern there seem "mysterious" to you? Reading on...

it also gives the human condition to much credit.

So you have a case of assumed subservience. Charming.

speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.

So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to have hauled yourself out, or had family members (or others in general) help in hauling you out of dire straits?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/7/2015 2:06:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:01:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:55:02 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer.
its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has.

And yet thus far remains unchallenged. Belittling the power that God really has is something He does on a regular, that is what I was referring to regarding socio economic class. Its amazing how God helps so many babies in Europe and the Americans, but so many babies in Africa die of typhoid and diphtheria. Does the pattern there seem "mysterious" to you? Reading on...

it also gives the human condition to much credit.

So you have a case of assumed subservience. Charming.

speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.

So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to have hauled yourself out, or had family members (or others in general) help in hauling you out of dire straits?

Nope. Nobody but God could have Saved me that night, my brother. Here is my Testimony I gave when I first joined DDO. it's post #22. God Bless.

http://www.debate.org...
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Outplayz
Posts: 1,266
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8/7/2015 2:09:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:52:06 AM, sheskew wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:38:17 AM, Outplayz wrote:
If there is an immortal intelligence called god, how can it know evil? How can you be evil to something that cannot die?

Inflicting mental or physical suffering for its own sake is evil. An immortal mind can know mental suffering. Also, I'd have trouble with the idea that an omniscient mind can be ignorant of something.

Sorry i didn't mean it like that. I didn't mean it is ignorant to it, actually the opposite ... it fully knows what it is and accepts it for what it is. When i say accepts, i don't mean agrees. But, it will not destroy it. It won't destroy it bc it is a choice. We can choose not to be evil. However, this goes quite deep bc some can't choose, but those people aren't really evil ... just mentally sick. It would be much easier to spot them if we didn't have so much clutter in-between.
Outplayz
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8/7/2015 2:12:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:01:09 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:48:51 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Isn't lust a gift? Pleasure. Or, is this only talking up a lust that would hurt another?

I think lust in this passage refers to chasing after sin in general, not necessarily just sex.

But yes, there is a healthy lust and an unhealthy one, always a balance to everything.

Jesus raised the bar with lust because He knew that the thoughts we entertain would bear fruit, whether that be good or bad fruit, bad fruit destroys.

Oh, i see. Thank you for explaining. I'm not religious so i am not well versed with how people interpret their faith. You interpret it in a good way ... as long as you don't look down on me for being lustful. But, i am guessing there is something in the bible that hates on my lust Lol, no offense.
FaustianJustice
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8/7/2015 2:14:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:06:37 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:01:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:55:02 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer.
its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has.

And yet thus far remains unchallenged. Belittling the power that God really has is something He does on a regular, that is what I was referring to regarding socio economic class. Its amazing how God helps so many babies in Europe and the Americans, but so many babies in Africa die of typhoid and diphtheria. Does the pattern there seem "mysterious" to you? Reading on...

it also gives the human condition to much credit.

So you have a case of assumed subservience. Charming.

speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.

So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to have hauled yourself out, or had family members (or others in general) help in hauling you out of dire straits?

Nope. Nobody but God could have Saved me that night, my brother. Here is my Testimony I gave when I first joined DDO. it's post #22. God Bless.

http://www.debate.org...

"So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion."

Repeated because you flat out ignored it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/7/2015 2:15:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:56:26 AM, sheskew wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said to him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and get you into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of.

I hate to open this can of worms, since it may well lead is down a rabbit hole of arguing when tempting is really tempting, or exactly what the word "tempt" means. But this is germane to the discussion, because here we have God offering Abraham the choice of performing an evil act or behaving disobediently towards God. It certainly is something that anyone claiming God's omni-benevolence needs to answer.

First of all I don't claim "omni" anything, that is garbage that needs to be trashed.

Yeah, it will come down to what we believe is evil and temptation in reality in the lesson of Abraham, since in the long run no evil was committed, I always viewed the story as an illustration.

The passage I supplied is much more direct and straight forward, I think it is the truth.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/7/2015 2:18:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:14:42 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:06:37 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:01:56 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:55:02 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:50:48 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:28 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/6/2015 5:20:00 PM, janesix wrote:
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer.
its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has.

And yet thus far remains unchallenged. Belittling the power that God really has is something He does on a regular, that is what I was referring to regarding socio economic class. Its amazing how God helps so many babies in Europe and the Americans, but so many babies in Africa die of typhoid and diphtheria. Does the pattern there seem "mysterious" to you? Reading on...

it also gives the human condition to much credit.

So you have a case of assumed subservience. Charming.

speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.

So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to have hauled yourself out, or had family members (or others in general) help in hauling you out of dire straits?

Nope. Nobody but God could have Saved me that night, my brother. Here is my Testimony I gave when I first joined DDO. it's post #22. God Bless.

http://www.debate.org...


"So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion."

Repeated because you flat out ignored it.

did you read my Testimony? and I would answer that last question if I understood it. sorry but I find your writing style a bit verbose and convoluted. Ill call that my problem not yours if it makes you feel better but your going to have to rephrase for me. I aint that smart, my brother. LOL.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
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8/7/2015 2:26:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:12:20 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:01:09 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:48:51 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Isn't lust a gift? Pleasure. Or, is this only talking up a lust that would hurt another?

I think lust in this passage refers to chasing after sin in general, not necessarily just sex.

But yes, there is a healthy lust and an unhealthy one, always a balance to everything.

Jesus raised the bar with lust because He knew that the thoughts we entertain would bear fruit, whether that be good or bad fruit, bad fruit destroys.

Oh, i see. Thank you for explaining. I'm not religious so i am not well versed with how people interpret their faith. You interpret it in a good way ... as long as you don't look down on me for being lustful. But, i am guessing there is something in the bible that hates on my lust Lol, no offense.

Well it depends upon your position for example, I can lust after women watching porn while my wife is away getting groceries but if she were to find out it would destroy her. Lusting in ones mind as well is not as simple as it may seem, everything is cause and effect and what begins in the mind (thoughts) is what manifests in the material.
I can come up with a million scenarios where lust is seriously a problem, I'd be happy to expand on that for ya.

As a spiritual person I'm more interested in the things that bring forth life and love, I don't want to destroy and cause harm, I've learned many lessons in the spirit and that is my home.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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8/7/2015 2:31:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If God created everything, he created evil as well. Thus God cannot be benevolent. Unless, of course, God didn't know what the results of creation would be,and is learning as he goes.

If we are all one and all a part of God, then we all need to take responsibility for our share of evil in the world.

God did not Create Evil. He Created Mankind who He bestowed Free Will. Sometimes when some of us exercise the Free Will we choose to do Evil. This is from where Evil cometh.
We are all NOT a part of God. sure, Created by Him but He will Not enter our Lives and Help us unless He so chooses. He could of course, duh, He is God. But for some reason He is very Selective with His Grace. He WILL Help if you ask, but you may not have an Afterlife with Him. Why does He choose? I don't know, brother.


Mind if I take a stab at it? Its because what you perceive as "help" is that person's ability, or the resources employed on behalf of that person. His Grace is only as selective as socio economic patterns.

Hey Faust, good to see ya! but I cant say I agree with your answer about what God's help is. all your really saying is that people sometimes help themselves but then give the credit to God. this is an old atheist claim and I used it myself before I became a Believer.
its as dull as dishwater and belittles the Power that God really has.

And yet thus far remains unchallenged. Belittling the power that God really has is something He does on a regular, that is what I was referring to regarding socio economic class. Its amazing how God helps so many babies in Europe and the Americans, but so many babies in Africa die of typhoid and diphtheria. Does the pattern there seem "mysterious" to you? Reading on...

it also gives the human condition to much credit.

So you have a case of assumed subservience. Charming.

speaking for myself i was nowhere near being able to save my own life when God did. if I would to had rely on my own resources we wouldnt be having this conversation since Id be dead.

So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion. It was IMPOSSIBLE for you to have hauled yourself out, or had family members (or others in general) help in hauling you out of dire straits?

Nope. Nobody but God could have Saved me that night, my brother. Here is my Testimony I gave when I first joined DDO. it's post #22. God Bless.

http://www.debate.org...


"So basically your refute is that there is no conceivable way in your arrangement which could have happened except through God, and there fore, it must be true of all others? All while in no way actually refuting my assertion."

Repeated because you flat out ignored it.

did you read my Testimony? and I would answer that last question if I understood it. sorry but I find your writing style a bit verbose and convoluted. Ill call that my problem not yours if it makes you feel better but your going to have to rephrase for me. I aint that smart, my brother. LOL.

Then I can tell you the problem with your argument in one word: solipsism. You has assumed that only your view can be true. The personal accomplishments of others, as you state, give to much credit to man. You personally see others accomplishments as belittling the power of God. Why is it impossible for you to have overcome your own adversaries in the same way that a child depends on an imaginary friend when hardships as school set in? The example is just as nebulous to the child, and the results just as satisfying.

And yes, I did read your testimony in which you lead in to it by stating you started drinking. You closed by stating all things with the exception of a split curtain were gone, leaving no evidence. What I did read was you picking up a book, reading, clearing your head, and realizing that offing yourself is not the best option.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Outplayz
Posts: 1,266
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8/7/2015 2:43:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:26:06 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:12:20 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:01:09 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:48:51 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:45:15 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
JAMES 1


Well it depends upon your position for example, I can lust after women watching porn while my wife is away getting groceries but if she were to find out it would destroy her.

It would destroy her if you watch porn? I'm not being offensive just asking.

Lusting in ones mind as well is not as simple as it may seem, everything is cause and effect and what begins in the mind (thoughts) is what manifests in the material.

Lust usually comes before love, no? I get a strong sexual desire for someone, then it progresses from there. It would depend on what type of mental lust too. Like i said, i am attracted to post-prepubescent women (not only just an fyi before i get too judged). I can't control that, and may get lustful thoughts but would never act on them. This is bc i understand the difference between love or taking advantage of someone for my own pleasure. i guess that age can't consent "by definition" but i was able to personally at that age. So, was i wrong for hooking up with older girls when i was younger just for lust? And, yes ... some i regret, but i don't regret the experiences.

I can come up with a million scenarios where lust is seriously a problem, I'd be happy to expand on that for ya.

With consent and both people being happy, is there any wrong in just "hooking up" for pleasure? That's the only lust i accept. But, i've made some points and i would love it if you'd like to expand on this topic. I am very confused why it is looked down upon.

As a spiritual person I'm more interested in the things that bring forth life and love, I don't want to destroy and cause harm, I've learned many lessons in the spirit and that is my home.

This is what i believe too. I do not think any one should hurt another or go after someone that hasn't consented. But, i think people should take more advantage of the (arguably) greatest pleasure we have on this rock. I think it is a tad bit demonized at this point.