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What is the Kalaam Cosmological Argument?

UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/6/2015 11:37:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

It puzzles you because it is bunk.

Kalam relies on a number of premises that are not provable. Attempting to prove them leads down a rabbit hole of non-workable mathematics and verbal sleight-of-hand. It is confusing on purpose.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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8/6/2015 11:46:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:37:33 PM, sheskew wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

It puzzles you because it is bunk.

Kalam relies on a number of premises that are not provable. Attempting to prove them leads down a rabbit hole of non-workable mathematics and verbal sleight-of-hand. It is confusing on purpose.

You beat me to it.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/6/2015 11:54:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:37:33 PM, sheskew wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

It puzzles you because it is bunk.

Kalam relies on a number of premises that are not provable. Attempting to prove them leads down a rabbit hole of non-workable mathematics and verbal sleight-of-hand. It is confusing on purpose.

Are you going to answer my questiopn?
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?
Nac
Posts: 326
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8/7/2015 12:00:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:54:30 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:33 PM, sheskew wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

It puzzles you because it is bunk.

Kalam relies on a number of premises that are not provable. Attempting to prove them leads down a rabbit hole of non-workable mathematics and verbal sleight-of-hand. It is confusing on purpose.

Are you going to answer my questiopn?

I believe UtherPenguin already helped you as much as anyone could, so someone wished to simply provide his opinion.

It also could have been brought on by your OP. "This puzzles me" is not a statement generally made when asking to have a concept you know nothing about explained to you.

Do you need any more assistance, or was Uther's help sufficient?
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/7/2015 12:03:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:54:30 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Are you going to answer my questiopn?

You want me to just copy and paste the argument for you? Well... ok.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause;
The universe began to exist;
Therefore:
The universe has a cause.
If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful;
Therefore:
An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful.

And no, I am unconvinced by it.
sheskew
Posts: 117
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8/7/2015 12:05:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is there a particular point that confuses you, or a particular step that you think needs more explanation? People have written pages and pages on this argument, and William Lane Craig makes big bucks selling it to people, so I'm not sure what in that huge volume of text to start the discussion with.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/7/2015 12:50:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.

Are you a Christian?
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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8/7/2015 12:54:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:50:49 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.

Are you a Christian?

Nope, Muslim.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/7/2015 12:58:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:54:24 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:50:49 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.

Are you a Christian?

Nope, Muslim.

As salaam u alikum. I know two Muslim friends.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,682
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8/7/2015 1:09:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 12:58:14 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:54:24 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:50:49 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.

Are you a Christian?

Nope, Muslim.

As salaam u alikum. I know two Muslim friends.

Salam to you too :)
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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8/7/2015 1:26:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:09:56 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:58:14 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:54:24 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:50:49 AM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/7/2015 12:05:33 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:58:05 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:37:04 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

An argument made by theologian William Lane Craig, used as an argument to prove the existence of God. Also is an expansion on the previous "Cosmological Argument"

Here's a short explanation of the Kalam argument: https://www.youtube.com...

Rock on. Thank you for telling me. Do you agree with this argument?

I do agree with the argument, It's very sound.

Are you a Christian?

Nope, Muslim.

As salaam u alikum. I know two Muslim friends.

Salam to you too :)

Shukran. I am trying to learn a few languages, and that includes Arabic. :) <3
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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8/7/2015 2:24:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Everything that begins to exist has a cause;

Okay...

The universe began to exist;

Maybe?

Therefore:
The universe has a cause.


No, this is a "maybe".

If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful;

How could you know its beginningless as opposed to just "before the universe as we currently understood it"
and how would we then know it is changless, or immaterial, or timeless, or spaceless.. heck, how do we know its enormously powerful? It could just as logically be a one trick pony, whom just as easily stopped existing once its power was exhausted in creating the universe.

Therefore:
An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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8/7/2015 6:13:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2015 11:16:53 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
This puzzles me.

The argument in a nutshell:

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. The universe had a cause
4. The cause would have to be, sans the universe, timeless, spaceless, and immaterial
5. Only minds and abstract concepts are timeless, spaceless, and immaterial
6. Abstract concepts can't affect reality
7. The cause is a transcendent, disembodied mind
8. Sans the universe, this mind would have to have no physical limits, therefore is omnipotent
9. This timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, conscious, omnipotent being is God
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass