Total Posts:41|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Would you consider this a miracle?

Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!
Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 10:56:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!

I should've been more specific, I want religious people to answer this one rather than atheists/agnostics. Oh well..
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 11:05:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:56:30 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!

I should've been more specific, I want religious people to answer this one rather than atheists/agnostics. Oh well..

TOUGH, you can't make such a specification on an open forum!
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 11:10:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 11:05:48 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:56:30 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!

I should've been more specific, I want religious people to answer this one rather than atheists/agnostics. Oh well..

TOUGH, you can't make such a specification on an open forum!

He's dangling some bait, JJ. You're spoiling his fishing.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 11:18:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 11:10:08 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/7/2015 11:05:48 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:56:30 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!

I should've been more specific, I want religious people to answer this one rather than atheists/agnostics. Oh well..

TOUGH, you can't make such a specification on an open forum!

He's dangling some bait, JJ. You're spoiling his fishing.

Oh dear, how sad, LOL!
Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 12:07:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 11:10:08 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/7/2015 11:05:48 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:56:30 AM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:52:43 AM, JJ50 wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Of course it isn't a miracle! Miracles don't happen, people just get lucky sometimes!

I should've been more specific, I want religious people to answer this one rather than atheists/agnostics. Oh well..

TOUGH, you can't make such a specification on an open forum!

He's dangling some bait, JJ. You're spoiling his fishing.

Hey shush you will scare the fish.
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 12:09:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Both of those seem more likely to be just good luck.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 1:02:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

neither account is a miracle.
i define a miracle as something that has no possibility of happening naturally
for instance if the plane was completely destroyed, and everyone on board survives without a scratch, then that would be very good evidence of a miracle.
although it still wouldn't be proof of GOD, only an unexplained event.

however i know some believers who can attribute just about anything as a miracle. including finding their car keys, and opening their eyes everyday.
the trouble with miracle claims, is unless it happens to you, no one else is justified at believing it was a miracle.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 1:50:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Depending on the definition of miracle. Every attempt I have seen to try and demonstrate supernatural miracles makes an equivocation fallacy.

I will grant that miracles (defined as something with an extremely low probabiliy) happen. After all, things with a 1 in a million chance of happening happen ALL THE TIME. That does not mean I will grant that miracles (defined as something with a divine or supernatural origin) happen.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Talkingisfun
Posts: 70
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)
"Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught"
-Winston Churchill
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:21:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)

Look up the word "explicable". I'll use Oxford.

"Able to be accounted for or understood"

Look up the word "divine".

"Of, from, or like God or a god"

Now, if you look up the word "God".

"(In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

"Supreme Being", and you can look up both of those words if you want to confirm what I say, means "Highest Existence".

To call something a miracle is to say, "Something crazy happened, and we don't understand why it happened, but it happened."
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:21:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Aren't miracles the result of divine intervention? If so, the onus is on those who claim something is a miracle, they have to show it was indeed a result of divine intervention, which of course, they can't.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Talkingisfun
Posts: 70
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:40:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:21:14 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)

Look up the word "explicable". I'll use Oxford.

"Able to be accounted for or understood"

Look up the word "divine".

"Of, from, or like God or a god"

Now, if you look up the word "God".

"(In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

"Supreme Being", and you can look up both of those words if you want to confirm what I say, means "Highest Existence".


To call something a miracle is to say, "Something crazy happened, and we don't understand why it happened, but it happened."

Nope. that's called a mistery. If something crazy happened which we don't understand why, it may or may not be possible to account for it with the laws of nature. A miracle is only something that can't possibly be explained by nature, not something that we just don't understand yet.

A miracle would be something like a completely dead organism coming back to life.
"Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught"
-Winston Churchill
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:42:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:40:25 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:21:14 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)

Look up the word "explicable". I'll use Oxford.

"Able to be accounted for or understood"

Look up the word "divine".

"Of, from, or like God or a god"

Now, if you look up the word "God".

"(In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

"Supreme Being", and you can look up both of those words if you want to confirm what I say, means "Highest Existence".


To call something a miracle is to say, "Something crazy happened, and we don't understand why it happened, but it happened."

Nope. that's called a mistery. If something crazy happened which we don't understand why, it may or may not be possible to account for it with the laws of nature. A miracle is only something that can't possibly be explained by nature, not something that we just don't understand yet.

A miracle would be something like a completely dead organism coming back to life.

You are missing the important aspect of this, and that is that it can't be explained. Certainly, everything happens from natural forces, but that doesn't mean we can explain it.

Certainly, a miracle would be a mystery.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Talkingisfun
Posts: 70
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:52:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:42:30 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:40:25 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:21:14 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)

Look up the word "explicable". I'll use Oxford.

"Able to be accounted for or understood"

Look up the word "divine".

"Of, from, or like God or a god"

Now, if you look up the word "God".

"(In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

"Supreme Being", and you can look up both of those words if you want to confirm what I say, means "Highest Existence".


To call something a miracle is to say, "Something crazy happened, and we don't understand why it happened, but it happened."

Nope. that's called a mistery. If something crazy happened which we don't understand why, it may or may not be possible to account for it with the laws of nature. A miracle is only something that can't possibly be explained by nature, not something that we just don't understand yet.

A miracle would be something like a completely dead organism coming back to life.

You are missing the important aspect of this, and that is that it can't be explained. Certainly, everything happens from natural forces, but that doesn't mean we can explain it.

Certainly, a miracle would be a mystery.

Basically, I think that there is a difference between miracles and mysteries. A miracle can't be explained except for by supernatural forces, and mystery just hasn't been explained (yet). What follows from that is that I don't believe that miracles exist.

Other people may not agree with those definitions, but they seem pretty logical to me.
"Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught"
-Winston Churchill
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 2:54:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:52:25 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:

Basically, I think that there is a difference between miracles and mysteries. A miracle can't be explained except for by supernatural forces, and mystery just hasn't been explained (yet). What follows from that is that I don't believe that miracles exist.

Other people may not agree with those definitions, but they seem pretty logical to me.

You'd be better off using the dictionary.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Harikrish
Posts: 11,009
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:05:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

It is a miracle to the guy who survived unless it is within the range of probability. But if you look at the safety records of air travel and survival rates of accidents. There is little reason to be concerned about the occasional accident unless it is outside the range of probability.
sheskew
Posts: 117
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:19:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

Wikipedia records 47 sole survivors of airline crashes. A few of them have only partial data and so may not be reliable, but yes, we can say with confidence that it has happened. Are these miracles? Well, nothing about our understanding of physics suggests that it is impossible to survive a crash, merely that it is very unlikely. However, when you consider that something like 10,000 planes have fallen out of the sky over the past 100 years, it's not so unusual that 0.5% of those crashes had exactly one survivor.

The real question for a believer is, does God put his finger on the scale every time a seemingly random event occurs? A deist would say no. A fundamentalist Christian would probably say yes. Neither has any meaningful way of supporting their opinion.
Talkingisfun
Posts: 70
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:29:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:54:27 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:52:25 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:

Basically, I think that there is a difference between miracles and mysteries. A miracle can't be explained except for by supernatural forces, and mystery just hasn't been explained (yet). What follows from that is that I don't believe that miracles exist.

Other people may not agree with those definitions, but they seem pretty logical to me.

You'd be better off using the dictionary.

I do actually.
Oxford dictionary:
Miracle: An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:
Merriam-Webster:
explicable: capable of being explained

If you combine those two definitions from the two (Well-respected) dictionaries, you'll get my definition.

I acknowledge that this is not the best possible reasoning, because I used two dictionaries. However, I feel like these definitions are the clearest ones and leave very little room for misinterpreting each other. Obviously I'm picking and choosing, but everyone does that when they define something.

All in all, it's just semantics. I just happen to like my own definitions (although I realize that someone else's definition is equally valid. I just like it less)
"Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught"
-Winston Churchill
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:35:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't really think that would normally count.
However, perhaps we should rethink miracles? Perhaps a miracle is not the happening of something that would violate physics, but rather an intervention in our closed system by a divine influence, which means little mundane things could be considered miraculous.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:38:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 2:42:30 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:40:25 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 2:21:14 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:53:33 PM, Talkingisfun wrote:
At 8/7/2015 1:44:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
As defined by Merriam Webster....

Miracle - an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

What do you think?

I prefer the oxford dictionary definition: "An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

A miracle should be not explicable by natural or scientific laws. Otherwise it's just a coincidence, and they are not as special as people tend to believe. (The examples of the question for instance. That just occasionally happens, and is completely logical within the rules of probability.)

Look up the word "explicable". I'll use Oxford.

"Able to be accounted for or understood"

Look up the word "divine".

"Of, from, or like God or a god"

Now, if you look up the word "God".

"(In Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being."

"Supreme Being", and you can look up both of those words if you want to confirm what I say, means "Highest Existence".


To call something a miracle is to say, "Something crazy happened, and we don't understand why it happened, but it happened."

Nope. that's called a mistery. If something crazy happened which we don't understand why, it may or may not be possible to account for it with the laws of nature. A miracle is only something that can't possibly be explained by nature, not something that we just don't understand yet.

A miracle would be something like a completely dead organism coming back to life.

You are missing the important aspect of this, and that is that it can't be explained. Certainly, everything happens from natural forces, but that doesn't mean we can explain it.

Certainly, a miracle would be a mystery.

You're confused. A miracle is not a mystery, a mystery is a mystery. A miracle is simply something that CANNOT be explained by natural laws, hence must be explained by the supernatural.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Chaosism
Posts: 2,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 3:44:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I never saw how such a thing could be classified as a miracle. All this does is reinforce one's belief through confirmation bias, via God of the Gaps.

As an example, say that someone recovers inexplicably from cancer. Doctors are clueless as to how it suddenly went from a death sentence to non-existent. Many would not hesitate to declare this a miracle; divine intervention of God.

However, the cancer would not have existed in the first place had God not created it, knowing that this person would develop it. If God is truly intervening, He is merely undoing the damage that He is responsible for.

An analogy would be if someone deliberately shot you (or fully allowed someone to shoot you), and then that person then took great steps to ensure you survive (like rush you to the hospital), even though they were responsible for the event in the first place.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 11:18:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 3:44:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I never saw how such a thing could be classified as a miracle. All this does is reinforce one's belief through confirmation bias, via God of the Gaps.

As an example, say that someone recovers inexplicably from cancer. Doctors are clueless as to how it suddenly went from a death sentence to non-existent. Many would not hesitate to declare this a miracle; divine intervention of God.

However, the cancer would not have existed in the first place had God not created it, knowing that this person would develop it. If God is truly intervening, He is merely undoing the damage that He is responsible for.

An analogy would be if someone deliberately shot you (or fully allowed someone to shoot you), and then that person then took great steps to ensure you survive (like rush you to the hospital), even though they were responsible for the event in the first place.

Bingo! Finally Chaosism pointed the underlying problem of a religious person's thought process throughout this. For the plane incident, they will claim that the saving of that one person's life is a miracle by God whilst at the same time dismissing the fact that God made every other person on the plane die (he created the universe and knows exactly what will happen). Just wanted to point this out as an irrational double standard. At this point most religious folk will bring up the free will bullsh*t to try befuddle the argument and save God's butt, but I'd rather not get into that for this post.
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/7/2015 11:28:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also a miracle shouldn't be defined as an extremely unlikely event, because in that case winning the lottery would be a miracle but someone is actually bound to win everytime, and there isn't any need for any supernatural explanation of it. I prefer thefreedictionary definition: miracle - An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. It is up to the miracle advocate to prove that such an event is inexplicable by the laws of nature and so far I have never seen anyone do it. Don't get me wrong, there are many things I once thought were unexplainable without God or something supernatural. But as you develop science literacy and look at our past mistakes of pretending to solve these mysteries through God of the gaps, you can see that naturalistic explanations tend to dominate even if they are overthrown, they are done so by other naturalistic explanations or theories.
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2015 1:36:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

well I wouldnt call either of those things miracles exactly. I think the word "fortunate" is closer to the truth. to me a miracle is something that cant be explained by science or statistics or laws of physics. but you could explain both those examples you gave with those. so no miracle. the only miracle I ever seen was from God. well, were from God since I seen more than one. God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Orangatang
Posts: 442
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2015 3:35:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/8/2015 1:36:52 AM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/7/2015 10:35:53 AM, Orangatang wrote:
Hypothetically (or not because I'm pretty sure this has happened) a plane crashes and everyone dies except one person. Is that miracle? Another could be that you trip and fall on your chin, the doctor says you were extremely lucky that you didn't break your jaw is that a miracle? Constructive discussions please :D

well I wouldnt call either of those things miracles exactly. I think the word "fortunate" is closer to the truth. to me a miracle is something that cant be explained by science or statistics or laws of physics. but you could explain both those examples you gave with those. so no miracle. the only miracle I ever seen was from God. well, were from God since I seen more than one. God Bless.

What did you see?
Read and Vote Please! http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2015 2:36:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/7/2015 11:18:41 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 3:44:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I never saw how such a thing could be classified as a miracle. All this does is reinforce one's belief through confirmation bias, via God of the Gaps.

As an example, say that someone recovers inexplicably from cancer. Doctors are clueless as to how it suddenly went from a death sentence to non-existent. Many would not hesitate to declare this a miracle; divine intervention of God.

However, the cancer would not have existed in the first place had God not created it, knowing that this person would develop it. If God is truly intervening, He is merely undoing the damage that He is responsible for.

An analogy would be if someone deliberately shot you (or fully allowed someone to shoot you), and then that person then took great steps to ensure you survive (like rush you to the hospital), even though they were responsible for the event in the first place.

Bingo! Finally Chaosism pointed the underlying problem of a religious person's thought process throughout this. For the plane incident, they will claim that the saving of that one person's life is a miracle by God whilst at the same time dismissing the fact that God made every other person on the plane die (he created the universe and knows exactly what will happen). Just wanted to point this out as an irrational double standard. At this point most religious folk will bring up the free will bullsh*t to try befuddle the argument and save God's butt, but I'd rather not get into that for this post.

Yes, just like the woman who was pulled from the rubble of a disaster after a few days of being buried alive exclaimed, "Jesus saved me! It's a miracle!" as she stands around the many bodies of other dead Christians.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Harikrish
Posts: 11,009
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2015 9:14:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/8/2015 2:36:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/7/2015 11:18:41 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 8/7/2015 3:44:11 PM, Chaosism wrote:
I never saw how such a thing could be classified as a miracle. All this does is reinforce one's belief through confirmation bias, via God of the Gaps.

As an example, say that someone recovers inexplicably from cancer. Doctors are clueless as to how it suddenly went from a death sentence to non-existent. Many would not hesitate to declare this a miracle; divine intervention of God.

However, the cancer would not have existed in the first place had God not created it, knowing that this person would develop it. If God is truly intervening, He is merely undoing the damage that He is responsible for.

An analogy would be if someone deliberately shot you (or fully allowed someone to shoot you), and then that person then took great steps to ensure you survive (like rush you to the hospital), even though they were responsible for the event in the first place.

Bingo! Finally Chaosism pointed the underlying problem of a religious person's thought process throughout this. For the plane incident, they will claim that the saving of that one person's life is a miracle by God whilst at the same time dismissing the fact that God made every other person on the plane die (he created the universe and knows exactly what will happen). Just wanted to point this out as an irrational double standard. At this point most religious folk will bring up the free will bullsh*t to try befuddle the argument and save God's butt, but I'd rather not get into that for this post.

Yes, just like the woman who was pulled from the rubble of a disaster after a few days of being buried alive exclaimed, "Jesus saved me! It's a miracle!" as she stands around the many bodies of other dead Christians.

That is proof miracles are not very effective in large groups of Christians because of their high expectations.