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Does the Bible Teach the Trinity?

kasmic
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8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The topic of which I would like to discuss; "Is the Trinity Biblical?" While I am not personally a theist this is an interesting question as many who profess to believe in the teachings of the Bible also proclaim a belief in the Trinity.

A:What is the Trinity?

I understand the Trinity to be "the threefold personality of the one Divine Being."(1) The following is text taken from the Athanasian Creed:

"5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible."(2)

The trinity therefore is "Three personalities in one incomprehensible defined being."

B: "All Scripture is given" for doctrine"

As we examine the words in the Bible, remember that it is written that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

B1: What does the Bible say?

When studying the Bible you will not find the trinity enunciated anywhere. It is not laid out in scripture. You will not find such a verse because it does not exist. Those who believe in the doctrine of the trinity often deduce such doctrine from a collocation of verses.

As such, below are verses of scripture that clearly teach that the Father and the Son are not the same person but are rather separate and distinct beings. In these examples Jesus Christ communicates with and interacts with God. This would be unnecessary if the doctrine of the trinity were true and certainly do not make sense if the doctrine were true. After each I will ask questions that eliminate how absurd the belief of the trinity would be.

1: Mathew 3:16-17

" 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Why does God have to tell himself that he is well pleased with himself?

2: Mark 10:18 (see also Mathew 19: 16-17 and Luke 18-19)

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

How can God be good excluding Jesus if they are one?

3:Mathew 24:36 (see also mark 13:32)

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

How can the Father know something the Son does not if they are one?

4: John 17: 20-22

"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

If the believers of the apostles words are to become one in the same way that God and Jesus Christ are one, does this mean that the apostles and believers are one person?

5: Luke 22: 41-42

"41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone"s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

If God the Father and Jesus are one, why would Jesus have to ask anything? How can Jesus set aside his will for the Father"s if they have the same will?

6: Mathew 27:46

" And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

If they are one, why would Jesus ask God why he has been forsaken?

These verses of scripture present an issue for the doctrine of the trinity, as the doctrine of the trinity does not make sense when applied to these verses.

B2: An incomprehensible God is an unknowable God.

incomprehensible: "impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible."(3)

"With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, "Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, " and I know not whom to adore or to address."(4)

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" Romans 8:16

The message the Bible presents on this topic is simple, we the children of God strive for eternal life, which is to Know God, and Jesus Christ.

C: The historicity of the trinity

The Doctrine of the trinity was not common in Christian theology until the 4th century.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established ... into Christian life ... prior to the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."(5)

"Indeed no less a source than the stalwart harper"s Bible Dictionary records that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries in not to be found in the New testament." (4)

Conclusion:

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches three personalities in one incomprehensible defined being. Such a being is unknowable. The Bible teaches that we are the Children of God and eternal life is to know God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not enunciated anywhere in the Bible. The doctrine was also not commonly taught until hundreds of years after Christ. Ergo, the only conclusion to be made is that the trinity is not biblical.

For those who disagree I have a few questions.

1: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) agree that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?

2: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why is there not even one scripture where God is described using the word "three"" if the doctrine of the Trinity is so fundamental to Christianity, as Trinitarians claim, why is there a complete failure on the part of Jesus or his apostles to articulate it anywhere?

3: What do you honestly think the New Testament would look like if today's Trinitarians wrote these books? Would it look any different? Would they say some things the apostles did not say?

4: Do you believe that it is requisite that Christians believe in the Trinity in order to be saved?

5: Was Jesus a Trinitarian? If not, why are you? If so, are you actually claiming that his one and only God was a three person being?

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) https://www.ccel.org...
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(4) https://www.lds.org...
(5) http://www.auburn.edu...
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

How can God be good excluding Jesus if they are one?

3:Mathew 24:36 (see also mark 13:32)

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

How can the Father know something the Son does not if they are one?

4: John 17: 20-22

"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

If the believers of the apostles words are to become one in the same way that God and Jesus Christ are one, does this mean that the apostles and believers are one person?

5: Luke 22: 41-42

"41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone"s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

If God the Father and Jesus are one, why would Jesus have to ask anything? How can Jesus set aside his will for the Father"s if they have the same will?

6: Mathew 27:46

" And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

If they are one, why would Jesus ask God why he has been forsaken?

These verses of scripture present an issue for the doctrine of the trinity, as the doctrine of the trinity does not make sense when applied to these verses.

B2: An incomprehensible God is an unknowable God.

incomprehensible: "impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible."(3)

"With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, "Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, " and I know not whom to adore or to address."(4)

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" Romans 8:16

The message the Bible presents on this topic is simple, we the children of God strive for eternal life, which is to Know God, and Jesus Christ.

C: The historicity of the trinity

The Doctrine of the trinity was not common in Christian theology until the 4th century.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established ... into Christian life ... prior to the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."(5)

"Indeed no less a source than the stalwart harper"s Bible Dictionary records that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries in not to be found in the New testament." (4)

Conclusion:

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches three personalities in one incomprehensible defined being. Such a being is unknowable. The Bible teaches that we are the Children of God and eternal life is to know God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not enunciated anywhere in the Bible. The doctrine was also not commonly taught until hundreds of years after Christ. Ergo, the only conclusion to be made is that the trinity is not biblical.

For those who disagree I have a few questions.

1: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) agree that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?

2: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why is there not even one scripture where God is described using the word "three"" if the doctrine of the Trinity is so fundamental to Christianity, as Trinitarians claim, why is there a complete failure on the part of Jesus or his apostles to articulate it anywhere?

3: What do you honestly think the New Testament would look like if today's Trinitarians wrote these books? Would it look any different? Would they say some things the apostles did not say?

4: Do you believe that it is requisite that Christians believe in the Trinity in order to be saved?

5: Was Jesus a Trinitarian? If not, why are you? If so, are you actually claiming that his one and only God was a three person being?

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) https://www.ccel.org...
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(4) https://www.lds.org...
(5) http://www.auburn.edu... : :

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend. Most readers of the Bible are not given the correct interpretations by our God.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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8/11/2015 3:43:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
yes,,,,

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. ([The second [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, [a city] of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])

Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Read More...)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Read More...)

John 14:16-17 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Read More...)

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Philippians 2:5-8 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Read More...)

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Read More...)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; (Read More...)

John 10:30-36 - I and [my] Father are one. (Read More...)

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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8/11/2015 3:59:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Imagine a mathematics textbook which had a dozen places where 2 + 2 = 5 and another dozen places where 2 + 2 = 3. When the first dozen mistakes are pointed out to the teacher, he doesn't attempt to explain the error, he simply points the students to the second dozen (which could also be wrong). Any such teacher would be fired by the education department. Yet this is exactly what Christians do with scripture. If one verse tells us unequivocally that Jesus is not God, they will just point you to another verse that says the opposite and ignore the first verse. They feel their job is done. It's farcical.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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8/11/2015 3:59:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:43:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
yes,,,,

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

In John 17 he tells you to be one as they are one... does that mean as one person?

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This lists them as three separate beings.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. ([The second [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, [a city] of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])

Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Read More...)

So God while being baptized watched himself, descended as a dove and then said to himself... I am well pleased with myself? Makes sense....

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Clearly speaking of a separate entity

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Read More...)

John 14:16-17 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Read More...)

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Philippians 2:5-8 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Read More...)

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Read More...)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; (Read More...)

John 10:30-36 - I and [my] Father are one. (Read More...)

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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8/11/2015 4:00:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend. Most readers of the Bible are not given the correct interpretations by our God.

Brad, you are such a loser.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 4:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:00:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend. Most readers of the Bible are not given the correct interpretations by our God.

Brad, you are such a loser. : :

And what do you think you are?
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 4:11:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all. : :

I'm not a true believer, Anna. I'm the voice of the Lord. The flesh that's writing this post is the liar that gets killed during this first age like all the lying flesh of this world.. The flesh are the sinners that are destroyed, not the spirit that I was created as. I will remain alive forever.
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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8/11/2015 4:18:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:
The topic of which I would like to discuss; "Is the Trinity Biblical?" While I am not personally a theist this is an interesting question as many who profess to believe in the teachings of the Bible also proclaim a belief in the Trinity.

A:What is the Trinity?

I understand the Trinity to be "the threefold personality of the one Divine Being."(1) The following is text taken from the Athanasian Creed:

"5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible."(2)

The trinity therefore is "Three personalities in one incomprehensible defined being."

B: "All Scripture is given" for doctrine"

As we examine the words in the Bible, remember that it is written that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

B1: What does the Bible say?

When studying the Bible you will not find the trinity enunciated anywhere. It is not laid out in scripture. You will not find such a verse because it does not exist. Those who believe in the doctrine of the trinity often deduce such doctrine from a collocation of verses.

As such, below are verses of scripture that clearly teach that the Father and the Son are not the same person but are rather separate and distinct beings. In these examples Jesus Christ communicates with and interacts with God. This would be unnecessary if the doctrine of the trinity were true and certainly do not make sense if the doctrine were true. After each I will ask questions that eliminate how absurd the belief of the trinity would be.

1: Mathew 3:16-17

" 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Why does God have to tell himself that he is well pleased with himself?

2: Mark 10:18 (see also Mathew 19: 16-17 and Luke 18-19)

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

How can God be good excluding Jesus if they are one?

3:Mathew 24:36 (see also mark 13:32)

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

How can the Father know something the Son does not if they are one?

4: John 17: 20-22

"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

If the believers of the apostles words are to become one in the same way that God and Jesus Christ are one, does this mean that the apostles and believers are one person?

5: Luke 22: 41-42

"41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone"s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

If God the Father and Jesus are one, why would Jesus have to ask anything? How can Jesus set aside his will for the Father"s if they have the same will?

6: Mathew 27:46

" And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

If they are one, why would Jesus ask God why he has been forsaken?

These verses of scripture present an issue for the doctrine of the trinity, as the doctrine of the trinity does not make sense when applied to these verses.

B2: An incomprehensible God is an unknowable God.

incomprehensible: "impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible."(3)

"With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, "Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, " and I know not whom to adore or to address."(4)

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" Romans 8:16

The message the Bible presents on this topic is simple, we the children of God strive for eternal life, which is to Know God, and Jesus Christ.

C: The historicity of the trinity

The Doctrine of the trinity was not common in Christian theology until the 4th century.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established ... into Christian life ... prior to the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there has been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."(5)

"Indeed no less a source than the stalwart harper"s Bible Dictionary records that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries in not to be found in the New testament." (4)

Conclusion:

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches three personalities in one incomprehensible defined being. Such a being is unknowable. The Bible teaches that we are the Children of God and eternal life is to know God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not enunciated anywhere in the Bible. The doctrine was also not commonly taught until hundreds of years after Christ. Ergo, the only conclusion to be made is that the trinity is not biblical.

For those who disagree I have a few questions.

1: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) agree that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?

2: If the Trinity Doctrine is a Bible teaching then why is there not even one scripture where God is described using the word "three"" if the doctrine of the Trinity is so fundamental to Christianity, as Trinitarians claim, why is there a complete failure on the part of Jesus or his apostles to articulate it anywhere?

3: What do you honestly think the New Testament would look like if today's Trinitarians wrote these books? Would it look any different? Would they say some things the apostles did not say?

4: Do you believe that it is requisite that Christians believe in the Trinity in order to be saved?

5: Was Jesus a Trinitarian? If not, why are you? If so, are you actually claiming that his one and only God was a three person being?

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) https://www.ccel.org...
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(4) https://www.lds.org...
graceofgod
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8/11/2015 4:20:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 3:59:47 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:43:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
yes,,,,

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

In John 17 he tells you to be one as they are one... does that mean as one person?

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This lists them as three separate beings.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. ([The second [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, [a city] of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])

Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Read More...)

So God while being baptized watched himself, descended as a dove and then said to himself... I am well pleased with myself? Makes sense....
it does father, son and Holy spirit all in one, showing why we baptise in those names...

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Clearly speaking of a separate entity

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Read More...)

John 14:16-17 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Read More...)

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Philippians 2:5-8 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Read More...)

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Read More...)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; (Read More...)

John 10:30-36 - I and [my] Father are one. (Read More...)

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 4:22:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:20:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:59:47 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:43:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
yes,,,,

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

In John 17 he tells you to be one as they are one... does that mean as one person?

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This lists them as three separate beings.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. ([The second [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, [a city] of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])

Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Read More...)

So God while being baptized watched himself, descended as a dove and then said to himself... I am well pleased with myself? Makes sense....
it does father, son and Holy spirit all in one, showing why we baptise in those names...

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Clearly speaking of a separate entity

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Read More...)

John 14:16-17 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Read More...)

Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Philippians 2:5-8 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Read More...)

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Read More...)

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 4:4-6 - [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Read More...)

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God; (Read More...)

John 10:30-36 - I and [my] Father are one. (Read More...)

Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought... : :

There's only ONE GOD and HIS name is NOT JESUS. If His name was Jesus, He would have had His prophets write down His name in the prophecies.
kasmic
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8/11/2015 4:25:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...

Well, being that I dont believe either. This is not really a slam dunk response. I am just showing that a plain reading of the Bible does not lead to the conclusion of the Trinity. It is not enunciated anywhere in its pages. The concept itself is ludicrous.
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graceofgod
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8/11/2015 4:28:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:25:40 PM, kasmic wrote:
so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...

Well, being that I dont believe either. This is not really a slam dunk response. I am just showing that a plain reading of the Bible does not lead to the conclusion of the Trinity. It is not enunciated anywhere in its pages. The concept itself is ludicrous.

lol of course it isn't unless you believe like the lds , when there are loads of gods and we become gods...

interesting though, i wonder who the lds think created everything..
kasmic
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8/11/2015 4:31:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
lol of course it isn't unless you believe like the lds , when there are loads of gods and we become gods...

interesting though, i wonder who the lds think created everything..

I dont believe like the LDS, but I dont find any other faiths to be anymore plausible. They are all together... nonsensical.
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graceofgod
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8/11/2015 4:37:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:31:45 PM, kasmic wrote:
lol of course it isn't unless you believe like the lds , when there are loads of gods and we become gods...

interesting though, i wonder who the lds think created everything..

I dont believe like the LDS, but I dont find any other faiths to be anymore plausible. They are all together... nonsensical.

on that we disagree ....
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 4:38:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:31:45 PM, kasmic wrote:
lol of course it isn't unless you believe like the lds , when there are loads of gods and we become gods...

interesting though, i wonder who the lds think created everything..

I dont believe like the LDS, but I dont find any other faiths to be anymore plausible. They are all together... nonsensical. : :

You got your wisdom from the ONE who created religions to deceive His people with.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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8/11/2015 5:05:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:25:40 PM, kasmic wrote:
so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...

Well, being that I dont believe either. This is not really a slam dunk response. I am just showing that a plain reading of the Bible does not lead to the conclusion of the Trinity. It is not enunciated anywhere in its pages. The concept itself is ludicrous.

why did you quote from an lds source??
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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8/11/2015 5:09:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:11:21 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all. : :

I'm not a true believer, Anna. I'm the voice of the Lord. The flesh that's writing this post is the liar that gets killed during this first age like all the lying flesh of this world.. The flesh are the sinners that are destroyed, not the spirit that I was created as. I will remain alive forever.

So we are reading the lies written by your flesh which is not a true believer. So the voice of God is distorted by your flesh which writes these lies. Isn't that why you are being called a liar and lunatic. duh!!! Your mind ain't right, Brad.
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 5:10:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:09:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:11:21 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all. : :

I'm not a true believer, Anna. I'm the voice of the Lord. The flesh that's writing this post is the liar that gets killed during this first age like all the lying flesh of this world.. The flesh are the sinners that are destroyed, not the spirit that I was created as. I will remain alive forever.

So we are reading the lies written by your flesh which is not a true believer. So the voice of God is distorted by your flesh which writes these lies. Isn't that why you are being called a liar and lunatic. duh!!! Your mind ain't right, Brad. : :

You still don't know how God created everything.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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8/11/2015 5:12:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:05:06 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:25:40 PM, kasmic wrote:
so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...

Well, being that I dont believe either. This is not really a slam dunk response. I am just showing that a plain reading of the Bible does not lead to the conclusion of the Trinity. It is not enunciated anywhere in its pages. The concept itself is ludicrous.

why did you quote from an lds source??

Well, to be fair most of the sources are just to a King James version of the Bible.

The only real quote from an LDS source is a source that points to early church fathers and it just happens to be where I knew to find it.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
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My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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8/11/2015 5:18:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:12:45 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:05:06 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:25:40 PM, kasmic wrote:
so if Jesus is not God who was the creator of all things, Jesus or God...??

just a thought...

Well, being that I dont believe either. This is not really a slam dunk response. I am just showing that a plain reading of the Bible does not lead to the conclusion of the Trinity. It is not enunciated anywhere in its pages. The concept itself is ludicrous.

why did you quote from an lds source??

Well, to be fair most of the sources are just to a King James version of the Bible.

The only real quote from an LDS source is a source that points to early church fathers and it just happens to be where I knew to find it.

yeah that will be it and the idea of multiple gods just happens to be one of their favourite bones too...
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/11/2015 6:35:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 4:11:21 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all. : :

I'm not a true believer, Anna. I'm the voice of the Lord. The flesh that's writing this post is the liar ....

Same difference in your case. "Voice of the Lord" = liar
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 6:37:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 6:35:06 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:11:21 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 4:02:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:34:45 PM, iam_free wrote:
At 8/11/2015 3:15:41 PM, kasmic wrote:

Your wisdom comes from God, not by reading the Bible. God guides His true believers to the correct interpretations my friend.

Correct interpretations? If you had those, you'd be dead at the moment. Instead, your life since Jan, 2015 is a living testimony that you aren't a "true believer" at all. : :

I'm not a true believer, Anna. I'm the voice of the Lord. The flesh that's writing this post is the liar ....

Same difference in your case. "Voice of the Lord" = liar : :

To antichrists like you, the voice of the Lord is considered a liar. To God's chosen believers, the voice of the Lord brings them great joy.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/11/2015 6:49:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I ve never been a big fan of the Triune God. Its a convaluted idea and Jesus never claimed it. and He's my go to guy on all this. I think it is a human invention from a few centuries after JC lived. maybe from the Nicea council, or Constantine. or the early Catholics. We need to keep it simple! Trinity doersnt do that. heres an exert from a good article on it. it agrees pretty good with my own believes on it. God Bless!

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24).

Many people assume that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit form what is commonly known as the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is usually summed up as a belief in one God existing in three distinct but equal persons.

But did you realize that, even though it is a common assumption among many sincere religious people, the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible? In fact, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed"long after the apostles of Christ were gone from the scene!

Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term "Trinity" is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity").

That same source goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is . . . To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn"t until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed" (ibid.).

We see, then, that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn"t formalized until long after the Bible was completed and the apostles were long dead in their graves. It took later theologians centuries to sort out what they believed and to formulate belief in the Trinity!
Why can"t theologians explain this doctrine?

By no means are theologians" explanations of the Trinity doctrine clear. Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an "incomprehensible mystery" and that attempts to understand it "must remain forever futile." He admits that churches, "without pretending to understand," have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).

He then remarkably concludes, "The fact that it cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor" (p. 23).

The New Unger"s Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Trinity, concedes that the Trinitarian concept is humanly incomprehensible: "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (1988, p. 1308).

Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York"s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his book The Doctrine of The Trinity:

"My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms" (1958, pp. 148-149).
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
iam_free
Posts: 62
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8/11/2015 6:54:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 6:49:51 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
I ve never been a big fan of the Triune God. Its a convaluted idea and Jesus never claimed it. and He's my go to guy on all this. : :

The Beast makes Jesus the go to guy for all Christians. The Beast makes Mohammed the go to guy for all Muslims. The Beast makes god of Abraham the go to guy for the Jews. The Beast influences the minds of ALL God's people in this world and keeps most of His people from knowing Him and their true created existence, even some of His chosen believers.

If you want to know about the Beast, I'm the go to guy to explain it to you because you will never understand it from reading the Bible.

I think it is a human invention from a few centuries after JC lived. maybe from the Nicea council, or Constantine. or the early Catholics. We need to keep it simple! Trinity doersnt do that. heres an exert from a good article on it. it agrees pretty good with my own believes on it. God Bless!

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24).

Many people assume that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit form what is commonly known as the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is usually summed up as a belief in one God existing in three distinct but equal persons.

But did you realize that, even though it is a common assumption among many sincere religious people, the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible? In fact, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed"long after the apostles of Christ were gone from the scene!

Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term "Trinity" is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity").

That same source goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is . . . To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn"t until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed" (ibid.).

We see, then, that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn"t formalized until long after the Bible was completed and the apostles were long dead in their graves. It took later theologians centuries to sort out what they believed and to formulate belief in the Trinity!
Why can"t theologians explain this doctrine?

By no means are theologians" explanations of the Trinity doctrine clear. Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an "incomprehensible mystery" and that attempts to understand it "must remain forever futile." He admits that churches, "without pretending to understand," have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).

He then remarkably concludes, "The fact that it cannot be satisfactorily explained, instead of being against it, is in its favor" (p. 23).

The New Unger"s Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Trinity, concedes that the Trinitarian concept is humanly incomprehensible: "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (1988, p. 1308).

Cyril Richardson, professor of church history at New York"s Union Theological Seminary, though a dedicated Trinitarian himself, said this in his book The Doctrine of The Trinity:

"My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct . . . It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms" (1958, pp. 148-149).