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Omnipotent paradox.....

skipsaweirdo
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8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty
skipsaweirdo
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8/11/2015 5:10:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

Sorry, I was unaware the first one went through...sorry
SNP1
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8/11/2015 7:46:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A paradox arises when an all piercing spear is used against an impenetrable shield.

Now, god (if omnipotent) should be able to create an all piercing spear.
God (if omnipotent) should be able to create an impenetrable shield.

So god, being omnipotent, can create 2 things which create a paradox when used together.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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8/11/2015 8:05:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 7:46:23 PM, SNP1 wrote:
A paradox arises when an all piercing spear is used against an impenetrable shield.

Now, god (if omnipotent) should be able to create an all piercing spear.
God (if omnipotent) should be able to create an impenetrable shield.

So god, being omnipotent, can create 2 things which create a paradox when used together.

He already has:

Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace: In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). - Ephesians 6:11-17

He has given us an all piercing weapon and an impenetrable shield. The shield and weapon are never opposed to each other, but always work in concert.
kp98
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8/11/2015 8:42:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
He has given us an all piercing weapon and an impenetrable shield. The shield and weapon are never opposed to each other, but always work in concert.

One can only admire the way theologians evade the issue.

The 'omnipotence' of is essentially the result of seeking ever more exaggerated terms to describe a god. In the oldest books of the Bible YHWH is described in terms that imply He is very powerful, but fall short of claiming omnipotence. YHWH became 'omnipotent' later.

One can most clearly see the temptation to invent ever more flattering terms for God in the 'petitionary' psalms - that it those psalms which ask god for a favour. Clearly if you want a god to grant you a favour (or do something nasty to you enemy) a degree of flattery would be advisable. If you want something from god you will naturally call him 'all powerful and all wise', not 'quite powerful as gods go, and fairly wise, considering'.

Inflating god's power would also be encouraged by wanting to compare him favourably to the gods of one's neighbours. As polytheistic gods are - more or less by definition - proscribed in their powers to a particular realm a monotheistic god can be 'omnipotent' - clearly winning any 'my god is better than your god' competition.

So I don't worry about the logical problem supposed by God's supposed omnipotence. God's 'omnipotence' is the product of an ancient version of Chuck Norris jokes(*) - finding ever more extravagant ways to describe the powers of God that have no connection with reality.

(*)My favourite Chuck Norris joke is 'Chuck Norris can access private members', but that's because I am a sad computer geek.
Yassine
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8/11/2015 9:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
- "Can God be not God? If not, then God is not omnipotent.", something like this I suppose.
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Geogeer
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8/11/2015 9:58:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 8:42:58 PM, kp98 wrote:
He has given us an all piercing weapon and an impenetrable shield. The shield and weapon are never opposed to each other, but always work in concert.

One can only admire the way theologians evade the issue.

Ask a stupid question, get a witty reply...

While my answer is being a smart arse, it is theologically correct. The only thing that is perfect is God. As God's will never changes, because it is perfect, He can never act against His own will (this is what God cannot do). Thus the answer I gave is perfectly valid, because perfection can only subsist within God and one aspect of His perfection does not act against another aspect of His perfection.
bulproof
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8/12/2015 2:38:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 9:58:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/11/2015 8:42:58 PM, kp98 wrote:
He has given us an all piercing weapon and an impenetrable shield. The shield and weapon are never opposed to each other, but always work in concert.

One can only admire the way theologians evade the issue.

Ask a stupid question, get a witty reply...

While my answer is being a smart arse, it is theologically correct. The only thing that is perfect is God. As God's will never changes, because it is perfect, He can never act against His own will (this is what God cannot do). Thus the answer I gave is perfectly valid, because perfection can only subsist within God and one aspect of His perfection does not act against another aspect of His perfection.
Then why pray?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Mhykiel
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8/12/2015 2:51:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

If God is omnipotent and can make anything no longer exist, Can God make God no longer exist?

OHHH paradox so God is not omnipotent. God disproved. (<-Atheist thinking)
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 3:36:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 2:51:30 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

If God is omnipotent and can make anything no longer exist, Can God make God no longer exist?

OHHH paradox so God is not omnipotent. God disproved. (<-Atheist thinking)

Existence is dependent on an outside source recognizing or acknowledging that existence. Its the same as the law of motion. You have to have 2 reference points to determine motion, for instance. If earth were the only body in space ,in the universe,and it were " hypothetically" traveling at 6 million miles per hour, it wouldn't be moving at all because there is no second point of reference to compare motion to. It wouldn't even seem as if were even moving. So to answer your question which is a fallacy of composition. I will put it as simply as I can. If God were to uncreate everything there would be nothing, including God to acknowledge the end result, I.e. you wouldn't have anything to confirm non existence. Therefore your question is as relevant in logic as a pregnant male homosapien or an 8 sided triangle.. If that's the best an atheists can do its no wonder the lot of them are logically inept. So yes God could do as you say but the answer wouldn't be answerable due to a law of , you know, 4th grade logic.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 3:49:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 9:25:59 PM, Yassine wrote:
- "Can God be not God? If not, then God is not omnipotent.", something like this I suppose.

Define not be God. Seriously, do you people even understand the simple laws of logic. This is like saying if God can do anything than God can do nothing, including being non existent. There is no such thing as being non existent. Something can't be non existent. Something may not exist, but then it isn't "being" through the proper usage of the word be. Quite ridiculous and without merit or reasoning. By the way, can God exhibit imperfection even though God is perfect. Yes, God can display imperfection based on the law of subsets. But something that isn't perfect cannot be perfect for the same reason. Its the same as a programmed calculator, it cannot do anything that its program doesn't include, but a super computer with 1 trillion lines if code can do what its programmed for and it can not do some of what its programs entail.
Yassine
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8/12/2015 3:56:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:49:22 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

- "Can God be not God? If not, then God is not omnipotent.", something like this I suppose.

Define not be God. Seriously, do you people even understand the simple laws of logic. This is like saying if God can do anything than God can do nothing, including being non existent. There is no such thing as being non existent. Something can't be non existent. Something may not exist, but then it isn't "being" through the proper usage of the word be. Quite ridiculous and without merit or reasoning. By the way, can God exhibit imperfection even though God is perfect. Yes, God can display imperfection based on the law of subsets. But something that isn't perfect cannot be perfect for the same reason. Its the same as a programmed calculator, it cannot do anything that its program doesn't include, but a super computer with 1 trillion lines if code can do what its programmed for and it can not do some of what its programs entail.

- I lost you right after the first sentence. I really don't know what you're trying to say. Plus, I was being sarcastic. Often those that claim the concept of Omnipotence to be incoherent come up with complex examples to arrive at absurd conclusions, hence the incoherence. So, I thought I save them the trouble & make it a simple: "can God be not God?", No, therefore, God is not Omnipotent.

- The issue here is simple. What is the definition of 'omnipotence' are you going with? Hence my ironical approach.
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skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 3:57:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 7:46:23 PM, SNP1 wrote:
A paradox arises when an all piercing spear is used against an impenetrable shield.

Now, god (if omnipotent) should be able to create an all piercing spear.
God (if omnipotent) should be able to create an impenetrable shield.

So god, being omnipotent, can create 2 things which create a paradox when used together.
The answer to The question is yes. And part of that scenario would be God creating a mentality of non necessity of shields and spears. I.e. both would exist but in a world were none would be used. If you can modify "things" to define them than I can answer by modifying the medium in which they would exist.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 3:59:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:56:50 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:49:22 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

- "Can God be not God? If not, then God is not omnipotent.", something like this I suppose.

Define not be God. Seriously, do you people even understand the simple laws of logic. This is like saying if God can do anything than God can do nothing, including being non existent. There is no such thing as being non existent. Something can't be non existent. Something may not exist, but then it isn't "being" through the proper usage of the word be. Quite ridiculous and without merit or reasoning. By the way, can God exhibit imperfection even though God is perfect. Yes, God can display imperfection based on the law of subsets. But something that isn't perfect cannot be perfect for the same reason. Its the same as a programmed calculator, it cannot do anything that its program doesn't include, but a super computer with 1 trillion lines if code can do what its programmed for and it can not do some of what its programs entail.

- I lost you right after the first sentence. I really don't know what you're trying to say. Plus, I was being sarcastic. Often those that claim the concept of Omnipotence to be incoherent come up with complex examples to arrive at absurd conclusions, hence the incoherence. So, I thought I save them the trouble & make it a simple: "can God be not God?", No, therefore, God is not Omnipotent.

- The issue here is simple. What is the definition of 'omnipotence' are you going with? Hence my ironical approach.
You chose any definition of omnipotence you want. And I will logically defeat your premise.
Yassine
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8/12/2015 4:01:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:59:15 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

You chose any definition of omnipotence you want. And I will logically defeat your premise.

- By that you mean?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 4:43:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:01:09 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:59:15 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

You chose any definition of omnipotence you want. And I will logically defeat your premise.

- By that you mean?
Chose a definition of omnipotence. Attempt a paradox under that definition and I will defeat it logically. Unless of course the definition is itself illogical.Then I will defeat the definition. The problem people don't recognize within attempts at omnipotent paradoxes, is they don't have a logical progression of thought. They hide contradictions in language and assume that exposes a contradiction. You can't contradict yourself in order to expose a contradiction.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 4:48:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:43:16 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:01:09 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:59:15 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

You chose any definition of omnipotence you want. And I will logically defeat your premise.

- By that you mean?
Chose a definition of omnipotence. Attempt a paradox under that definition and I will defeat it logically. Unless of course the definition is itself illogical.Then I will defeat the definition. The problem people don't recognize within attempts at omnipotent paradoxes, is they don't have a logical progression of thought. They hide contradictions in language and assume that exposes a contradiction. You can't contradict yourself in order to expose a contradiction.

In regards to a spear that can penetrate everything and a shield that can't be penetrated by anything. The contradiction is within the statement not within the limitation of God. By definition a spear that can penetrate anything could not exist in the same world as shield that is impenetrable. So the answer is simple. God would create them in a world where neither is ever used and where the use itself of spears and shields doesn't exist in the minds of people. So the challenge is satisfied.
Yassine
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8/12/2015 5:07:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:43:16 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Chose a definition of omnipotence. Attempt a paradox under that definition and I will defeat it logically. Unless of course the definition is itself illogical.Then I will defeat the definition. The problem people don't recognize within attempts at omnipotent paradoxes, is they don't have a logical progression of thought. They hide contradictions in language and assume that exposes a contradiction. You can't contradict yourself in order to expose a contradiction.

- You're clearly not familiar with Logic.
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skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:10:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:07:09 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:43:16 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Chose a definition of omnipotence. Attempt a paradox under that definition and I will defeat it logically. Unless of course the definition is itself illogical.Then I will defeat the definition. The problem people don't recognize within attempts at omnipotent paradoxes, is they don't have a logical progression of thought. They hide contradictions in language and assume that exposes a contradiction. You can't contradict yourself in order to expose a contradiction.

- You're clearly not familiar with Logic.
Make your case if its so clear.
Yassine
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8/12/2015 5:14:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:10:07 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Make your case if its so clear.

- Alright. Omnipotence is defined as 'being a square circle'. Have fun!
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skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:21:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:14:41 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:10:07 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Make your case if its so clear.

- Alright. Omnipotence is defined as 'being a square circle'. Have fun!
As I said, you contradicted yourself. The perception of what constitutes square is your reality that has been applied to your perception of things. Square contradicts circle. Your thinking is a contradiction. The definition is a contradiction, you haven't exposed a contradiction in something else,, you merely created a contradiciton, not expose an existing one.
Yassine
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8/12/2015 5:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:21:22 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:14:41 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:10:07 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Make your case if its so clear.

- Alright. Omnipotence is defined as 'being a square circle'. Have fun!
As I said, you contradicted yourself. The perception of what constitutes square is your reality that has been applied to your perception of things. Square contradicts circle. Your thinking is a contradiction. The definition is a contradiction, you haven't exposed a contradiction in something else,, you merely created a contradiciton, not expose an existing one.

- You haven't said anything so far. I lost my interest, bye.
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:26:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:22:43 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:21:22 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:14:41 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:10:07 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

Make your case if its so clear.

- Alright. Omnipotence is defined as 'being a square circle'. Have fun!
As I said, you contradicted yourself. The perception of what constitutes square is your reality that has been applied to your perception of things. Square contradicts circle. Your thinking is a contradiction. The definition is a contradiction, you haven't exposed a contradiction in something else,, you merely created a contradiciton, not expose an existing one.

- You haven't said anything so far. I lost my interest, bye.
Typical. No rebuttal because you believe you have something worth grasping onto to reaffirm your distorted beliefs. Omnipotence is a square circle is a contradiction within your own perceptions. You even fail at attempting a rationale where that is a valid reality.
Bennett91
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8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:44:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible. First premise is also a fail. To know something one must experience it.....prove it.
I know The civil war happened by reading history books. Yet I didn't experience it , did I?
Bennett91
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8/12/2015 5:44:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible.

I don't claim omnipotence, your paradox does not apply to me.
skipsaweirdo
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8/12/2015 5:47:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:44:33 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible.

I don't claim omnipotence, your paradox does not apply to me.
Prove to know something one must experience it. That claim in itself says you "have knowledge" of something....prove it.
Bennett91
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8/12/2015 5:49:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:44:03 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible. First premise is also a fail. To know something one must experience it.....prove it.
I know The civil war happened by reading history books. Yet I didn't experience it , did I?

You don't know what the civil war was truly like. You don't know what it is like to fight with single load rifles, fighting with bayonets or what it was like to be a slave. You can imagine what what it was like because he have glimpses into the past, but you can never truly know.
Bennett91
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8/12/2015 5:54:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:47:05 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:44:33 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:41:55 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:34:32 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/11/2015 5:08:25 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I'm curious as to what are (assumed to be might be a better way of looking at it) omnipotent paradoxes people are aware of. Please list only one that you believe exposes a paradox. Please do not put threads that include your personal feelings on what constitues good or evil. I'm curious to see if most paradoxes are merely semantics or the hiding of meanings of words that are subsets of other words used in the paradox. Ty

P1) To truly know something one must experience it.
P2) God knows everything.
P3) Because God knows everything He knows what it's like to not exist.
P4) In order for God to truly know what it's like to not exist He must have experienced it.
C) Paradox: In order for God to be truly omnipotent He must not exist.
Prove not existing is possible.

I don't claim omnipotence, your paradox does not apply to me.
Prove to know something one must experience it. That claim in itself says you "have knowledge" of something....prove it.

I only have knowledge of what I experience. Prove my knowledge? 2 + 2 = 4. Touching a hot stove will cause the nerve endings in my hand to tell me brain HOT, I learned if I wanted to avoid that stimulation I shouldn't touch the stove.

Do you have knowledge at which you did not gain by experience in any way? If you did that then you would certainly disprove my premise. Good luck.