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Thoughts on Islam?

Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,385
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8/12/2015 3:10:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

From, my experience with many muslims and how they interpret their religion, not too positive...
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,385
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8/12/2015 3:14:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:10:20 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

From, my experience with many muslims and how they interpret their religion, not too positive...

I wouldn't say all of them are war-mongering hateful people, but rather quite annoying.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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8/12/2015 3:19:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.

Something tells me you were not an atheist. People who come to the reasonable and rational conclusion that theists claims for their gods are empty and meaningless don't suddenly accept those claims and embrace them, that is, unless they got a lobotomy.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
katie.snappy
Posts: 108
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8/12/2015 3:22:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:19:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Something tells me you were not an atheist. People who come to the reasonable and rational conclusion that theists claims for their gods are empty and meaningless don't suddenly accept those claims and embrace them, that is, unless they got a lobotomy.

I've seen it happen, but it's pretty rare. When someone is facing a lot of intense challenges in their life, they turn to something to cope. Sometimes an atheist may find solace in religion, although it is very uncommon. Not saying that this is the case here, but I've seen it happen.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 3:37:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

In the entirety of their histories, Islam is just as bad as Christianity and visa versa.

Currently, Islam is far worse as many of its adherents are fundamentalists.
Think
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 3:39:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.

How long were you an atheist and what were you before that?
Think
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
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8/12/2015 3:41:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:22:35 PM, katie.snappy wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:19:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Something tells me you were not an atheist. People who come to the reasonable and rational conclusion that theists claims for their gods are empty and meaningless don't suddenly accept those claims and embrace them, that is, unless they got a lobotomy.

I've seen it happen, but it's pretty rare. When someone is facing a lot of intense challenges in their life, they turn to something to cope. Sometimes an atheist may find solace in religion, although it is very uncommon. Not saying that this is the case here, but I've seen it happen.

Yes, people do lose their minds due to not being able to cope with reality, that could very well be the case here.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
Posts: 7,765
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8/12/2015 4:01:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

Response: The true religion as prescribed by Allah since the creation of the universe and life itself, which serves as guidance to truth and righteousness for all of humankind and perfected through the last and final Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah.
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/12/2015 4:18:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:01:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

Response: The true religion as prescribed by Allah since the creation of the universe and life itself, which serves as guidance to truth and righteousness for all of humankind and perfected through the last and final Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

Fati, in your thread "Now that homosexual marriage is legal....", you claim over 40 times that "children like sex", and not once do you offer any evidence for this dubious assertion. As you continually refuse to answer in the appropriate forum, I will ask you here, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that "children like sex"?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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8/12/2015 4:22:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Bible and the Quran prophesied the destruction of Rome. Jesus did not destroy Rome. Islam/Muslims did and by doing so fulfilled the prophecies.
Is Islam the new covenant promised? Jeremiah said the new covenant would be formed from the house of Israel and the house of Judah. But.....

"Perfect Covenant With Muhammad and His Followers
According to Islamic doctrine, both the Children of Israel and the Christians broke their respective covenants and corrupted their scriptures. By way of contrast, God's covenant with the prophet Muhammad and his followers is true and complete, calling believers back to the original divine covenant by reminding them of God's benevolence, teaching them his commandments, and promising the reward of paradise and forgiveness of sins for all who obey."

With 1.7 billion Muslims bound to the new covenant and the failure of Jesus to unite the Jews as their messiah illuminates the fulfilling of the promised new covenant with the followers of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Jeremiah's new covenant could not be established with a divided and weakened house of Israel and house of Judah after Jesus's demise. Besides the fall of Rome was prophesied so a new covenant with the Christians of the Roman Catholic order would be a contradiction. Islam earned the right by fulfilling the destruction of the Roman Empire by the armies of the Prophet Muhammad.

More thoughts on Islam to follow.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 6:30:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:39:12 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.

How long were you an atheist and what were you before that?

I was an Atheist for about 2 years and before I was a Christian.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/12/2015 6:36:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:18:42 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:01:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

Response: The true religion as prescribed by Allah since the creation of the universe and life itself, which serves as guidance to truth and righteousness for all of humankind and perfected through the last and final Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

Fati, in your thread "Now that homosexual marriage is legal....", you claim over 40 times that "children like sex", and not once do you offer any evidence for this dubious assertion. As you continually refuse to answer in the appropriate forum, I will ask you here, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that "children like sex"?

I'd like it if you and Fati not fill up a thread meant for discussion about Islam with a discussion about children and sex. I just don't see it as relevant. If you'd like you and Fati can start a different thread and discuss there, but please refrain from using mine.
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
- the Sunni-Shia divide is merely the most prominent one out of several
- religious adherents constantly debate over what scripture means
- Muslim factions are in constant dispute with one another, and not always bloodlessly
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.
- the Sunni-Shia divide is merely the most prominent one out of several
Sure there are others, but I though you just meant that one specifically since it's the most relevant.
- religious adherents constantly debate over what scripture means
- Muslim factions are in constant dispute with one another, and not always bloodlessly
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,610
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8/13/2015 1:30:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

It is the last religion I would chose and I'm not chosing any religion in this life. It is highly incompatible with western nations. The only way Muslims will be truly accepted in the West is for them to fully embrace the separation of church and state. If they don't, relations will get worse.
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.

- the Sunni-Shia divide is merely the most prominent one out of several
Sure there are others, but I though you just meant that one specifically since it's the most relevant.
- religious adherents constantly debate over what scripture means
- Muslim factions are in constant dispute with one another, and not always bloodlessly
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/13/2015 2:35:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.
I'm not saying it's transcendent. And it's not an 'if' seeing as though it's confirmed that politics is the reason for the split.
http://www.bbc.com...
And to assume that everyone who attempts to follow Islam will be able to adhere to 100% of it is a bit silly. If you judge a religion off of its followers, you'll always be disappointed. Since no one is perfect, no one can follow 100% of Islam. It's just impossible. But what you're supposed to do instead is try your hardest. That's what matters more; the fact that you tried.
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/13/2015 3:02:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:35:35 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.
I'm not saying it's transcendent. And it's not an 'if' seeing as though it's confirmed that politics is the reason for the split.
http://www.bbc.com...

That article is not settling the issue at all. There are differences in theology with the two factions. IMO, God really should settle this awful dispute. What is He waiting for?

Your claim is akin to saying that the Catholic Church choosing a new pope is pure politics with no religious element involved. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. As I said, it does not change the centuries old, internal hostilities inherent in the religion overall.

And to assume that everyone who attempts to follow Islam will be able to adhere to 100% of it is a bit silly. If you judge a religion off of its followers, you'll always be disappointed. Since no one is perfect, no one can follow 100% of Islam. It's just impossible. But what you're supposed to do instead is try your hardest. That's what matters more; the fact that you tried.

Heh, you are assuming that I assume that. What I AM saying is that Muslims cannot even agree on what constitutes 100% adherence!

And we can ALL strive to do our best with what we have. One does not need the umbrella of religion to do that...

I will say, though-- you haven't pulled out the old ad hominem Tu Quoque defense-- yet at least. There is something to be said for avoiding that pathetic bit of apologetics...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/13/2015 3:14:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:02:46 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:35:35 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.
I'm not saying it's transcendent. And it's not an 'if' seeing as though it's confirmed that politics is the reason for the split.
http://www.bbc.com...

That article is not settling the issue at all. There are differences in theology with the two factions. IMO, God really should settle this awful dispute. What is He waiting for?

Your claim is akin to saying that the Catholic Church choosing a new pope is pure politics with no religious element involved. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. As I said, it does not change the centuries old, internal hostilities inherent in the religion overall.
I'm not certain that the Pope and his election process is even mentioned in the Bible. If it's not, then I suppose it is just political.

And to assume that everyone who attempts to follow Islam will be able to adhere to 100% of it is a bit silly. If you judge a religion off of its followers, you'll always be disappointed. Since no one is perfect, no one can follow 100% of Islam. It's just impossible. But what you're supposed to do instead is try your hardest. That's what matters more; the fact that you tried.

Heh, you are assuming that I assume that. What I AM saying is that Muslims cannot even agree on what constitutes 100% adherence!
They're very similar, actually (i.e.: same book, nearly same holidays, nearly same prayers, etc.). The fundamentalists just can't seem to notice the similarities.

And we can ALL strive to do our best with what we have. One does not need the umbrella of religion to do that...
Sure, but I suppose you could just say it's like an added incentive to do even more. lol

I will say, though-- you haven't pulled out the old ad hominem Tu Quoque defense-- yet at least. There is something to be said for avoiding that pathetic bit of apologetics...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 3:23:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:02:46 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:35:35 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.
I'm not saying it's transcendent. And it's not an 'if' seeing as though it's confirmed that politics is the reason for the split.
http://www.bbc.com...

That article is not settling the issue at all. There are differences in theology with the two factions. IMO, God really should settle this awful dispute. What is He waiting for?

Your claim is akin to saying that the Catholic Church choosing a new pope is pure politics with no religious element involved. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. As I said, it does not change the centuries old, internal hostilities inherent in the religion overall.

And to assume that everyone who attempts to follow Islam will be able to adhere to 100% of it is a bit silly. If you judge a religion off of its followers, you'll always be disappointed. Since no one is perfect, no one can follow 100% of Islam. It's just impossible. But what you're supposed to do instead is try your hardest. That's what matters more; the fact that you tried.

Heh, you are assuming that I assume that. What I AM saying is that Muslims cannot even agree on what constitutes 100% adherence!

And we can ALL strive to do our best with what we have. One does not need the umbrella of religion to do that...

I will say, though-- you haven't pulled out the old ad hominem Tu Quoque defense-- yet at least. There is something to be said for avoiding that pathetic bit of apologetics...

- I am confused as to where exactly is this conversation going?
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Fly
Posts: 2,049
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8/13/2015 3:27:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:23:21 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:02:46 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:35:35 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:21:18 AM, Fly wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:06:15 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:43:42 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 6:32:09 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:11:40 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

I wonder how many of those 1.7 billion have read the Quran. And of those, how many have understood it properly. And of those, how do they discern what "proper understanding" is? Who is the arbiter of proper interpretation?

Going by how many Muslim sects differ on their understanding of their Scripture, and how those differences have often culminated in violence amongst themselves, it appears that there is no real arbiter of proper understanding of Islamic texts (Quran, Hadiths, etc.) In practice, it seems to sow destructive chaos rather than constructive unity.

The Sunni-Shia split was the result of politics, not different interpretations of religious texts.

This hardly addresses my points. Do you deny that differing interpretations lead to disagreement over who the "true believers" are?

My points to your response:

- semantics-- politics and religion have historically intertwined for centuries
Sunnis wanted Abu Bakr to be the Caliph, and Shias wanted Ali to be Caliph. That's quite political.

You really don't see how theological differences played into this disagreement? And you don't see how this disagreement was the very embodiment of how religion and politics have commingled?

Even if your analysis were correct (and that is a big if) the fact that the fight rages on centuries after the initial disagreement is NOT a glowing testimonial for the ideals and transcendence of Islam.
I'm not saying it's transcendent. And it's not an 'if' seeing as though it's confirmed that politics is the reason for the split.
http://www.bbc.com...

That article is not settling the issue at all. There are differences in theology with the two factions. IMO, God really should settle this awful dispute. What is He waiting for?

Your claim is akin to saying that the Catholic Church choosing a new pope is pure politics with no religious element involved. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. As I said, it does not change the centuries old, internal hostilities inherent in the religion overall.

And to assume that everyone who attempts to follow Islam will be able to adhere to 100% of it is a bit silly. If you judge a religion off of its followers, you'll always be disappointed. Since no one is perfect, no one can follow 100% of Islam. It's just impossible. But what you're supposed to do instead is try your hardest. That's what matters more; the fact that you tried.

Heh, you are assuming that I assume that. What I AM saying is that Muslims cannot even agree on what constitutes 100% adherence!

And we can ALL strive to do our best with what we have. One does not need the umbrella of religion to do that...

I will say, though-- you haven't pulled out the old ad hominem Tu Quoque defense-- yet at least. There is something to be said for avoiding that pathetic bit of apologetics...

- I am confused as to where exactly is this conversation going?

It is headed inevitably toward my non-conversion to Islam.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 3:30:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:27:52 AM, Fly wrote:

It is headed inevitably toward my non-conversion to Islam.

- Don't be so sure. I meant on an intellectual level.
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desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/13/2015 8:26:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 6:36:13 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:18:42 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:01:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

Response: The true religion as prescribed by Allah since the creation of the universe and life itself, which serves as guidance to truth and righteousness for all of humankind and perfected through the last and final Prophet, Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

Fati, in your thread "Now that homosexual marriage is legal....", you claim over 40 times that "children like sex", and not once do you offer any evidence for this dubious assertion. As you continually refuse to answer in the appropriate forum, I will ask you here, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that "children like sex"?

I'd like it if you and Fati not fill up a thread meant for discussion about Islam with a discussion about children and sex. I just don't see it as relevant. If you'd like you and Fati can start a different thread and discuss there, but please refrain from using mine.

As Fati refuses to answer my questions in his own forum, where he states "children enjoy sex", I will keep questioning him in any forum on which he appears.
I apologise for using your thread, but would really like him to answer.
ecco
Posts: 180
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8/13/2015 11:29:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 6:30:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:39:12 PM, ecco wrote:
At 8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.

How long were you an atheist and what were you before that?

I was an Atheist for about 2 years and before I was a Christian.

What caused you to become an atheist?
Think
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 2:53:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 3:01:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:30:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 5:02:20 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
State your thoughts on the religion encompassing nearly 1.7 billion people.

- When was it that you decided to convert? & from what?

Less than a year ago and from Atheism.

- Mashallah brother. I really do wanna hear your story. :)
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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