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InsertNameHere
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8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time. For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed". Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam.

So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...
Volkov
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8/30/2010 3:36:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Any anthropological study of religions shows this exact fact: it's all relative to the attitudes of the culture it grows out of at the time.

The Old Testament is a testament to that fact; it flips between being insular and imperial, because Israel at various times had isolationalist leaders and elites, and other times had to be more open, since they'd be taken over by a neighboring empire and in order to co-exist, they had to be more open to the other cultures under that empire.

Paul's preaching to the various upstart Christian churches across the Roman Empire was very open, tolerant, inclusive, and "brotherly," because in order to maintain these diverse and disparate groups across an empire, he had to ensure they were able to be inclusive and flexible to the needs of the local populace, while maintaining somewhat of a universal code to keep them grouped together.

In the Koran, Muhammed goes from a tolerant, peace-loving Prophet, to a war-mongering emperor after he leads forces to take over Medina, at which time was akin to a small empire.

Religious texts reflect cultural, political, and geographic knowledge and attitudes of the time. It's not hard to see - read some of Robert Wright's books.
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2010 3:40:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes, very much so. I have looked into 18th century America and 7th century Arabia and both Mormonism and Islam seem to reflect exactly that.
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:42:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:36:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
In the Koran, Muhammed goes from a tolerant, peace-loving Prophet, to a war-mongering emperor after he leads forces to take over Medina, at which time was akin to a small empire.
Ah, stop lying, please? Do you know what a war monger is? And can you stop being so disrespectful and attack someone who defended the nation of Muslims from people who would treat <you> as dirt had they been as great as Muslims are today? Please. You do not even know who in the world started Battle of Badr or what in the world that battle was about, so remain silent or eek knowledge about it. Your horrible comments on him are simply horrible.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist

Wtf. Why?

I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time. For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed". Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam.

I don't think the doctrines of Buddhism were at all influenced by culture. Buddha rejected ALL the beliefs of India and created a philosophical system like no other. There is no part of Buddhist doctrine that can be said to be a product of culture. I.e. racism, antihomosexual, sacrifices, cruel laws, etc.

So if these texts were truly from God

Not all texts claim to be revealed from God. Tao te Ching, Tipitaka, and Jain texts for example.

wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras?

Your Deist God hasn't done that so you rejected your own God. :P
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
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8/30/2010 3:46:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Your Deist God hasn't done that so you rejected your own God. :P

How so? How can a Deist God make scriptures to begin with? He wouldn't.
Volkov
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8/30/2010 3:47:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:42:49 PM, Mirza wrote:
Ah, stop lying, please? Do you know what a war monger is? And can you stop being so disrespectful and attack someone who defended the nation of Muslims from people who would treat <you> as dirt had they been as great as Muslims are today? Please. You do not even know who in the world started Battle of Badr or what in the world that battle was about, so remain silent or eek knowledge about it. Your horrible comments on him are simply horrible.

So you're saying the several campaigns Muhammed went on were not wars, nor that he was mongering them?

And really, Mirza - don't get so personal about it. I know you'd have my head cut off or something along those lines right now, since I talked badly against you Prophet, but I'm simply calling it as it is. The Koran itself follows this reality.
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time. For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed". Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam.

So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...
Where does the Qur'an treat women as dirt? Please, bring it up. Bring the "half worth of males" verse up too if you want. Let us really examine them all.
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:50:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:47:03 PM, Volkov wrote:
So you're saying the several campaigns Muhammed went on were not wars, nor that he was mongering them?
No, he was not mongering them. He was in a <defense> position and <had> to lead wars, but he never started them. What he did was to send peace treaties as offers to peace, but none of the hypocritical Pagans wanted it. The very first battle between Muslims and non-Muslims is 100% proof. Have you heard of it

And really, Mirza - don't get so personal about it. I know you'd have my head cut off or something along those lines right now, since I talked badly against you Prophet, but I'm simply calling it as it is. The Koran itself follows this reality.
First of all, no. I think that people condemning you would be a tougher punishment. Secondly, the Qur'an promotes war and will always do so. It sees war as <defense>, not offense. It strictly prohibits offensive wars. In fact, when in the world did it say that Muslims should be aggressive? Never did it do it. Thank God for an influencing book. A shame on those condemning it for telling innocent people how to defend from oppressors. Really, SHAME.
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:53:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Rubbish. The Western culture is getting horrible. Things that are the worst in the world are regarded as normal, but a little systematic and good treatment of individuals and a promotion of self defense is now bad? Who on earth gave birth to all these hypocrites?
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:55:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:46:36 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Your Deist God hasn't done that so you rejected your own God. :P

How so? How can a Deist God make scriptures to begin with? He wouldn't.
Exactly, it is not even a deity. It is a fictional figure about creating something without a purpose so that people can suffer and the evil ones will not be brought to justice. Thanks, but this sounds horrible.
Mirza
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8/30/2010 3:59:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:56:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mirza, why do you seem so much more defensive today? You're not usually like this.
I have little time so I choose a quick round now, and it is really tiresome seeing the same people making the same claims over and over again.

The worst thing is hypocrisy. If we discuss Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), some atheists here deny ALL evidence speaking of him being good, while if you deny all evidence for the theory of evolution, they laugh, call you stupid, ignore you, etc. This is pure hypocrisy and is just terrible, over and over again.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/30/2010 4:00:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:56:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mirza, why do you seem so much more defensive today? You're not usually like this.

DDO is PMSing! First panda now Mirza
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/30/2010 4:05:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:59:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:56:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mirza, why do you seem so much more defensive today? You're not usually like this.
I have little time so I choose a quick round now, and it is really tiresome seeing the same people making the same claims over and over again.

The worst thing is hypocrisy. If we discuss Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), some atheists here deny ALL evidence speaking of him being good, while if you deny all evidence for the theory of evolution, they laugh, call you stupid, ignore you, etc. This is pure hypocrisy and is just terrible, over and over again.

Well I still admire many islamic teachings.
lovelife
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8/30/2010 4:12:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 4:05:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:59:48 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:56:44 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mirza, why do you seem so much more defensive today? You're not usually like this.
I have little time so I choose a quick round now, and it is really tiresome seeing the same people making the same claims over and over again.

The worst thing is hypocrisy. If we discuss Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), some atheists here deny ALL evidence speaking of him being good, while if you deny all evidence for the theory of evolution, they laugh, call you stupid, ignore you, etc. This is pure hypocrisy and is just terrible, over and over again.

Well I still admire many islamic teachings.

Most/all religions have something to admire.

"Excuse me? I am just in a rush..."

It was a joke.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/30/2010 4:21:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time. For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed". Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam.

So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...

Why? What would that even look like? Suppose God directly spoke to you in propositions. For you to understand it it'd have to be in English - that is culturally influenced. Suppose you told someone about it - how you say it is culturally influenced. And son...

And how do transcultural religions factor in?
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BLACK LIVES MATTER!
juvanya
Posts: 613
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8/30/2010 5:17:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 4:05:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well I still admire many islamic teachings.

Smite the necks of the nonbelievers...
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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8/30/2010 5:26:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 5:17:27 PM, juvanya wrote:
At 8/30/2010 4:05:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Well I still admire many islamic teachings.

Smite the necks of the nonbelievers...

No, not that one.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/30/2010 5:52:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 4:21:14 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
And how do transcultural religions factor in?

Do they arise as such or spread? :P
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/30/2010 5:55:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 5:52:53 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/30/2010 4:21:14 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
And how do transcultural religions factor in?

Do they arise as such or spread? :P

They arise...after many wars to teach people what they believe must be true.

Religion is like art, that causes millions of deaths, and trillions more tragidies.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
juvanya
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8/30/2010 6:08:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In Deism, God just created the Universe and took a nap. The question then is, what is the point of God then? The answer is that there is no point and its just atheists either protecting their lives (see Founding Fathers) or atheists in denial.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/30/2010 7:19:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 5:52:53 PM, Puck wrote:
At 8/30/2010 4:21:14 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
And how do transcultural religions factor in?

Do they arise as such or spread? :P

Heh.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/30/2010 7:25:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I don't think the doctrines of Buddhism were at all influenced by culture. Buddha rejected ALL the beliefs of India and created a philosophical system like no other. There is no part of Buddhist doctrine that can be said to be a product of culture. I.e. racism, antihomosexual, sacrifices, cruel laws, etc.


Mhm. And which language did Buddha or his scribes write or speak in?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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8/30/2010 10:59:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time.
Ok.
For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed".
Curse of Ham? i) Mormons were 19th Century, ii) Mormons where relatively liberal compared to others, hence it spread.
Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam. Attitudes to women.
Homosexuality wasn't even known to exist by most cultures and the 'vindication of woman' is a human constant.

So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...
Foolish, the texts are constant, it's mans interpretation changes. Also, religion creates most social norms.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
lovelife
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8/30/2010 11:08:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 10:59:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time.
Ok.
For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed".
Curse of Ham? i) Mormons were 19th Century, ii) Mormons where relatively liberal compared to others, hence it spread.

It spread because it had popular beliefs while appealing to those that didn't like traditional beliefs. No one argued that it wasn't liberal, but rather say it was that way to attract more people to a mindset.
Religion is almost completely cultural with some morals, and some personal bias thrown in there. Mormonism is a great example of such a concoction.

Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam. Attitudes to women.
Homosexuality wasn't even known to exist by most cultures and the 'vindication of woman' is a human constant.


There were homosexuals they were just thought of as diseased or cursed or something.
In most cultures, which is why it is/was thrown into religion.

So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...
Foolish, the texts are constant, it's mans interpretation changes. Also, religion creates most social norms.

No the texts aren't constant. Not really. Not if you look at all the different religions. Unless what you mean is that it started with a true relgion people split apart and due to lack of writing the tall-tales spread differently in different places told by different people.
That would account for the cultural differences, beliefs, practices and norms.

Religion helps shape some aspects of social norms, the same way any art does, only much larger scale since very few people say "If you don't like x band then you will burn forever" while religion basically does.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Zetsubou
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8/30/2010 11:17:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I don't think the doctrines of Buddhism were at all influenced by culture. Buddha rejected ALL the beliefs of India and created a philosophical system like no other.
And thus Hinduism stayed and Theravada Buddhism replaced the tribal religions of south east asia.
There is no part of Buddhist doctrine that can be said to be a product of culture. I.e. racism, antihomosexual, sacrifices, cruel laws, etc.
Do you really think the concepts of nirvana, yoga, karma and samsara were excusive to Buddhism in the time of Buddha, that he didn't just take the best part out of other extinct or dying religions? Do you really believe that Buddha was different to other humans and that he was an enlightened man? If so you have a lesson to learn, like all other pseudo-objective demands on moral conduct, Buddhism is false, not only that but it finds it origins in the human or first millennia mind tradition and culture. He was just a pacifist trying to force his beliefs on others by theory and not action(violence).

Kinda worked though.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/30/2010 11:44:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 11:17:57 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:44:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I don't think the doctrines of Buddhism were at all influenced by culture. Buddha rejected ALL the beliefs of India and created a philosophical system like no other.
And thus Hinduism stayed and Theravada Buddhism replaced the tribal religions of south east asia.

Ok...

There is no part of Buddhist doctrine that can be said to be a product of culture. I.e. racism, antihomosexual, sacrifices, cruel laws, etc.
Do you really think the concepts of nirvana,

Nope. Buddha's concept of Nirvana was completely different than Hinduism. Hinduism's Nirvana is union with a Supreme Being, Buddhism's Nirvana is the extinguishing of the self.

yoga,

That's not part of Buddhism.

karma

Different concepts of karma. Hindu karma involves the will of a supreme being, Buddhist karma is the law of cause and effect with no gods involved.

and samsara were excusive to Buddhism in the time of Buddha, that he didn't just take the best part out of other extinct or dying religions?

He didn't take the best parts. He refuted their entire belief systems. I already showed you how some of the central concepts you pointed out are diametrically opposed between Buddhism and Hinduism.

Do you really believe that Buddha was different to other humans and that he was an enlightened man?

Yes.

If so you have a lesson to learn, like all other pseudo-objective demands on moral conduct, Buddhism is false,

Irrelevant, but can you demonstrate your case?

not only that but it finds it origins in the human or first millennia mind tradition and culture.

And Buddha was ahead of his time. It doesn't matter what era, the ignorance of his environment doesn't determine his intellect.

He was just a pacifist trying to force his beliefs on others by theory and not action(violence).

Pacifism plays a minor role in Buddhism. I wouldn't describe Buddha as a pacifist, but rather a philosopher.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zetsubou
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8/30/2010 11:52:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/30/2010 11:08:04 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 8/30/2010 10:59:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 8/30/2010 3:27:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This has likely been discussed many times before, but now as a self-proclaimed deist I just wanted to throw out my thoughts on the topic. Lovelife and I have made an interesting observation that every religion seems to reflect the cultural attitude of the time.
Ok.
For example, 18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed".
Curse of Ham? i) Mormons were 19th Century, ii) Mormons where relatively liberal compared to others, hence it spread.

It spread because it had popular beliefs while appealing to those that didn't like traditional beliefs. No one argued that it wasn't liberal, but rather say it was that way to attract more people to a mindset.
"18th century Americans were racist thus according to the book of Mormon "dark-skinned people were cursed." You clearly said that racist was a reason for which it spread. Incorrect.
Religion is almost completely cultural with some morals, and some personal bias thrown in there. Mormonism is a great example of such a concoction.
Meh.

Other examples could be the Anti-homosexual attitudes upheld in nearly every religion and the 7th century cultural attitudes towards women thrown into Islam. Attitudes to women.
Homosexuality wasn't even known to exist by most cultures and the 'vindication of woman' is a human constant.


There were homosexuals they were just thought of as diseased or cursed or something. In most cultures, which is why it is/was thrown into religion.
O rly? Start listing pre-christian or Pre 15th Century cultures that knew about homosexuality, they're are a few but not many.
So if these texts were truly from God wouldn't he try to make something that is void from all cultural influences and that reflects all mankind for all eras? These are just a few of my thoughts...
Foolish, the texts are constant, it's mans interpretation changes. Also, religion creates most social norms.

No the texts aren't constant. Not really. Not if you look at all the different religions.
The Qur'an, Torah, Tipitaka and the Bible remained very much the same after their 'cooldown phase' which I'd give a century after it's claimed creation.
Unless what you mean is that it started with a true relgion people split apart and due to lack of writing the tall-tales spread differently in different places told by different people.
Christianity
East(Mark's line) - West(Peter's line)
They split because the Roman Empire split into four(the roman tetrarchy) and for geographical reasons split for efficiency. The Byzantines added 3 books and the Pope added one. In the 10th Century after Western crusaders asked the byzantine empire and the rise of Islam, the East was almost wiped out. It moved Russia where the Soviets nearly destroyed it again in the Russian civil war(1917).

Reformation
Protestants - Catholics
Reformationists disagreed on the current Christian focus of the church or caesaropapism. Lutheranism(M. Luther), Anglicanism(various), Calvinism(J. Clavin), Quakers and the Amish all have there origins here. Protestant's use the MLT, KJE and NIE which removes 3 catholic books.

Islam
Sunni - Sh'ia
Text are the same. Though it is believed Uthman, changed the Qur'an a decade before the origin of this split(25 years after Muhammad). It was a family feud over the succession of Uthman's son Ali and Uthman's nephews in the 650s case this split, I believe.

Buddhism
Theravada - Mahayana
New sutras(holy books), ask geo for specifics. Major text change

They are the major religious splits, not really "tall tales" now are they.

That would account for the cultural differences, beliefs, practices and norms.
Nope.
Religion helps shape some aspects of social norms,
Religion takes the norms of one area and spreads them likw, dare I say it, a virus.
the same way any art does,
Sorry, don't get it.
only much larger scale since very few people say "If you don't like x band then you will burn forever" while religion basically does.
I dunno, they did in Russia.
'sup DDO -- july 2013