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JWs teach what Christ and the Apostles taught

bulproof
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8/13/2015 12:45:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jesus and the apostles taught that armageddon would be completed in 1914 and all eartly governments and religions would be brought to destruction.
Jesus and the apostles taught that jesus would take up his eartly throne in 1874.

Your turn.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 1:09:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:45:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Jesus and the apostles taught that armageddon would be completed in 1914 and all eartly governments and religions would be brought to destruction.
Jesus and the apostles taught that jesus would take up his eartly throne in 1874.

Your turn.

No they did not, in fact Jesus and the Apostles had no idea when it would occur, Jesus even said as much at Matthew 24:36:

ASV(i) 36 But of that day and hour knower no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.

Now can we get back to the OP which is, as it very carefully states, about what they teach, not what they taught when in error.

Understand now, or do you have trouble with the difference between present and past tenses?

Again, a long deserted past error is all you can come up with, lol. Pathetic.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
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8/13/2015 1:36:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:09:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:45:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Jesus and the apostles taught that armageddon would be completed in 1914 and all eartly governments and religions would be brought to destruction.
Jesus and the apostles taught that jesus would take up his eartly throne in 1874.

Your turn.

No they did not, in fact Jesus and the Apostles had no idea when it would occur, Jesus even said as much at Matthew 24:36:
So the jehovians do not teach what jesus and the apostles teach. That is a fail.
ASV(i) 36 But of that day and hour knower no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.

Now can we get back to the OP which is, as it very carefully states, about what they teach, not what they taught when in error.
Well of course we can since you have proven that the OP is just a croc.
Understand now, or do you have trouble with the difference between present and past tenses?
You obviously have no idea of what your OP and your title says.
Again, a long deserted past error is all you can come up with, lol. Pathetic.
It is what the jehovians taught so when they were teaching it you claim that jesus and the apostles taught it.
I understand that you have the intellectual and emotional maturity of a ten year old but that is your plunge into absurdity.

2000yrs ago your jesus and his apostles TAUGHT the rubbish you lie about is wrong because it was taught and is not current?
You are seriously insane aren't you.
If it was the truth 150yrs ago then it is the truth now.
Your capacity for self delusion is only exceeded by your stupidity.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
shortman
Posts: 8
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8/13/2015 1:39:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this? : :

Jesus knew he wasn't his Father;

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

John 12
44: And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/13/2015 1:47:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:39:47 PM, shortman wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this? : :

Jesus knew he wasn't his Father;

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

John 12
44: And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.

That really didn't answer my question.
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
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8/13/2015 1:48:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

Yes and when god says he spoke to Adam, Noah, Abraham and Jesus you call him a liar because he sent angels to speak for him.
I personally love the way you call your god a liar and are oblivious to that.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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8/13/2015 1:51:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe michael was Jesus...

so would jw's actually claim they are michaelians not Christians...??
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 1:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:51:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe michael was Jesus...

so would jw's actually claim they are michaelians not Christians...??

Just because you don't believe it, does not make it wrong.

I suggest you consider this comparison of their roles taken from "What does the Bible really teach:

http://wol.jw.org... (The whole booklet)

http://wol.jw.org... (The Appendix to the book copied and pasted below).

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah"s rulership and fighting God"s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name""Who Is Like God?" But who is Michael?

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

Archangel. God"s Word refers to Michael "the archangel." (Jude 9) This term means "chief angel." Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term "archangel" occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel"s voice." Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

Army Leader. The Bible states that "Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels." (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and "his angels" and Jesus and "his angels." (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God"s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven"one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus"it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.*

More information showing that the name Michael applies to God"s Son is found in Volume 2, pages 393-394, of Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah"s Witnesses. (http://wol.jw.org...)

It is obviously your choice which yu believe, but think carefully because your eternal life depends on it.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/13/2015 2:04:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.

Ill choose to believe in the Bible
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:09:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:51:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe michael was Jesus...

so would jw's actually claim they are michaelians not Christians...??

They claim that they teach what Christ and the Apostles taught, which is exactly what they do.

Even if God's son and Michael were two different beings, since both Michael and God's son, (who is not given any other name since The Word, the Messiah and the Christ are titles, not names), are both portrayed amongst the faithful their teachings would inevitably be identical anyway.

So basically your point is moot, and as Shakespeare would say, "What's in a name?"

What is important is that all servants of Jehovah and Christ teach the same things.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:11:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:04:25 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.

Ill choose to believe in the Bible

Please do. That is what the JWs and I do, 100%. The Bible is God's word, the only thing is one has to be very careful how you understand what it actually is saying.

So many get it completely wrong, but as God's word it can only, in reality, teach one thing from Genesis to Revelation.
bulproof
Posts: 25,185
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8/13/2015 2:12:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
150yrs ago the jehovians claim that jesus took up his thrown in 1874 and that the end of the gentile times would be accomplished by the end of armageddon in 1914. That is what jesus and the apostles teach.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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8/13/2015 2:15:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Dontcha love the way he runs away when proven to be a LIAR.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Alpha3141
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8/13/2015 2:18:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:11:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:04:25 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.

Ill choose to believe in the Bible

Please do. That is what the JWs and I do, 100%. The Bible is God's word, the only thing is one has to be very careful how you understand what it actually is saying.

So many get it completely wrong, but as God's word it can only, in reality, teach one thing from Genesis to Revelation.

So the JWs teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus, and that the relationship between Jesus and God is that they are one?

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

The Jews even say that Jesus is claiming to be God. They say "You, being a Man, make Yourself God". And for that reason they tried to kill him. This is clearly taught. Its not a random conclusion that I made. The Jews even said that he was claiming to be God. The Jews tried killing him because he was saying he is God. You really deny what the Bible says about this?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:19:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:47:08 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:39:47 PM, shortman wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this? : :

Jesus knew he wasn't his Father;

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;

Which illustrates the absolute submission of Christ to his father, and the unity of what they teach.
.
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Which illustrates the same thing, plus that Christ has forsaken any will of his own in favour of his father's, as all followers of Christ must also do.


John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this separates the two, but emphasises the unity of their thinking, which all Christ's followers have to imitate.

24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.


Again illustrating Christ's submission to his father.

John 12
44: And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.

All of Jesus followers can say exactly the same because we all pass on Jehovah's message just as his son did on earth.


That really didn't answer my question.

I hope this does so a little more fully.

All who bear Witness to the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 1:3) have to teach the same as Jehovah teaches, learn to love what he loves, and hate what he hates, thus answering Jesus prayer to his father that all his followers be one with him as he is with his father.
graceofgod
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8/13/2015 2:20:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:58:33 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe michael was Jesus...

so would jw's actually claim they are michaelians not Christians...??

Just because you don't believe it, does not make it wrong.

I suggest you consider this comparison of their roles taken from "What does the Bible really teach:

http://wol.jw.org... (The whole booklet)

http://wol.jw.org... (The Appendix to the book copied and pasted below).

APPENDIX
Who Is Michael the Archangel?
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah"s rulership and fighting God"s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name""Who Is Like God?" But who is Michael?

At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.

Archangel. God"s Word refers to Michael "the archangel." (Jude 9) This term means "chief angel." Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term "archangel" occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel"s voice." Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

Army Leader. The Bible states that "Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels." (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and "his angels" and Jesus and "his angels." (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) Since God"s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven"one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus"it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.*

More information showing that the name Michael applies to God"s Son is found in Volume 2, pages 393-394, of Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah"s Witnesses. (http://wol.jw.org...)

It is obviously your choice which yu believe, but think carefully because your eternal life depends on it.

true but it is not about me not believing it it is about the bible truth...

michael dare not rebuke satan ..Jesus did...

angels do not create anything...Everything was created through Jesus ..

Jesus is worshiped...angels are not..

Jesus is referred to by God as his son, no angel is called God's only begotten..

Jesus is referred to as the alpha and omega... which is equal with God, what angel is equal with God...

has there ever been salvation through an angel....
graceofgod
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8/13/2015 2:22:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:09:03 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:27:50 PM, graceofgod wrote:
do jw's teach what Christ taught or what the arch angel michael taught??

They teach what Christ and the Apostles taught.

However that is quite likely the same thing. Since it appears from a comparison of their scriptural roles, and they fact that they are allied, does tend to indicate that Jehovah's only begotten son, who came to earth to occupy the specially prepared body of Christ is likely to also be the Archangel Michael.

Especially when you consider that Archangel means Chief Angel, and that would describe God's son completely since he worked alongside his father in creating everything else.

It is also not logical for there to be two Archangels.

However, there is no definitive evidence either way, it is left for us to fathom out.

I don't believe there is any scriptural reason to believe michael was Jesus...

so would jw's actually claim they are michaelians not Christians...??

They claim that they teach what Christ and the Apostles taught, which is exactly what they do.

Even if God's son and Michael were two different beings, since both Michael and God's son, (who is not given any other name since The Word, the Messiah and the Christ are titles, not names), are both portrayed amongst the faithful their teachings would inevitably be identical anyway.

So basically your point is moot, and as Shakespeare would say, "What's in a name?"

What is important is that all servants of Jehovah and Christ teach the same things.

the point is not moot at all......

you are either saved by Jesus or by michael..

Jesus is the son of God, no angel is...
graceofgod
Posts: 5,037
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8/13/2015 2:26:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When Christ returns at his second coming, we"re specifically told at 1st John 3:2 that at our own resurrection that "we shall be like him." But, the Bible states at Acts 17:31 and 1st Timothy 2:5 that Christ in his post-resurrection state is described by the apostles Luke and Paul as "a man!" (Greek: anthropos). There"s no mention of Christ being Michael the Archangel. However, if the Jehovah"s Witnesses do indeed believe that Christ was recreated as an archangel, then because we"ll be just like him, if he"s now an archangel, then that would mean that in their paradise earth, all Jehovah"s Witnesses will also lose their own human natures and be made into archangels, just like their own false Jesus!
1st Corinthians 6:3 speaking of God"s people, states that they will soon judge angels: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" However, if Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, who became this angel once again after his crucifixion, when his body dissolved into gasses, but was then recreated by Jehovah as the archangel Michael. Then to be consistent shouldn"t Jehovah"s Witnesses claim that one day they"ll judge Jesus Christ?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:27:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:18:53 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:11:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:04:25 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.

Ill choose to believe in the Bible

Please do. That is what the JWs and I do, 100%. The Bible is God's word, the only thing is one has to be very careful how you understand what it actually is saying.

So many get it completely wrong, but as God's word it can only, in reality, teach one thing from Genesis to Revelation.

So the JWs teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus, and that the relationship between Jesus and God is that they are one?

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even by saying "from my father" Jesus shows he was not claiming equality. Simply unity.

Nowhere in scripture does he claim equality with his father, nor do the Apostles ever assign him such equality.


The Jews even say that Jesus is claiming to be God. They say "You, being a Man, make Yourself God". And for that reason they tried to kill him. This is clearly taught. Its not a random conclusion that I made. The Jews even said that he was claiming to be God. The Jews tried killing him because he was saying he is God. You really deny what the Bible says about this?

Not at all, because it also shows them to be liars even in that same passage as I explain above. they did falsely accuse him of that, but nowhere in scripture does he actually do so.

Whose word do you wish to take? The lying word of the Pharisees who did all they could to frame him for things he never did?

Or the word of Jesus and the Apostles, all of which deny any equality between God and Christ?

So far you show little sign of actually thinking about what you are reading, because even the passage you use to prove your point disproves it when read carefully.

Sorry, but you do not understand scripture. You give the impression of simply parroting what you have been told without questioning it at all.

Question everything, even your own beliefs. That is what scripture tells us to do continually. After all, how can we guide others to the truth if we have not made 100% certain that what we believe is the truth. We will be teaching with a plank in our own eyes. Matthew 7:1-5.

Be careful. There are many false paths, but only one which leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/13/2015 2:34:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

Jesus said,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2: 19)

The Jews replied, "The Jews therefore said, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou raise it up in three days?" (John 2: 20)

John commented, "But he spake of the temple of his body." (John 2: 21)

Concerning our own resurrection, Paul later said,

"So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory
It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."

I Cor 15: 42-44

I have asked you many times, "What is the antecedent of the word 'it' up there in I Cor 15 - the 'it' that is sown a natural body in weakness, dishonor, and corruption?" You've never given us a reasonable answer.

In explaining this, Paul also said,

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Cor 15: 51-53

This change is effected by the Spirit.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (I Pet 3: 18)

Thus, no, Jehovah's Witnesses do not "teach what Christ and the apostles taught".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Alpha3141
Posts: 154
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8/13/2015 2:37:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:27:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:18:53 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:11:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:04:25 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:03:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:55:50 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:51:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:28:38 PM, Alpha3141 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:36:20 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
OK now try and prove that wrong.

One point at a time only please.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even the Jews new that Jesus was teaching that he is God, hence the name "Son of God". Do the JWs also teach this?

They teach that Jehovah and his son are one, yes, but not that they are one person or one God.

Simply that, as Christ taught at other times, they are one, or united, in their aims and ideals.

Was Christ saying he was literally one with his father as you seem to imply?

Or was he teaching, as he said to Mary after his resurrection that he actually has a God over him (John 20:17)?

Since Jesus does not contradict himself, and since the Apostles also praised, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", the only possible meaning of tat passage from John 10 is that they are one in thought and ideals, not in any other sense.

This is confirmed many ways in scripture.

Isaiah calls the coming Messiah Mighty God, not almighty God, and Prince of Peace, not King of Peace.

Scripture shows the Christ and handing the Kingdom back to his father when his work has been brought to completion.

The Apostles frequently referred to our Salvation as coming from the father, but through the son.

All of which confirm the submissive role of the Christ described in 1 Corinthians when discussing the headship arrangement.

It is all too easy to misapply scriptures like Luke 10 when considering them in isolation, and not in the light of the whole of the rest of scripture.

There are many more scriptural ways to combat how you appear to be presenting that scripture, and to correct the understanding of it.

So they don't teach that God and Jesus are one? I'm confused

Only one in the sense that scripture uses the word, that of complete unity of purpose, as Christ continually explained.

I am sorry if you are confused, but maybe you would benefit from reading this, and making up your own mind what you think about it|:

http://wol.jw.org...

As always it is up to you what you choose to believe, but think carefully since your eternal life depends on your decision.

Ill choose to believe in the Bible

Please do. That is what the JWs and I do, 100%. The Bible is God's word, the only thing is one has to be very careful how you understand what it actually is saying.

So many get it completely wrong, but as God's word it can only, in reality, teach one thing from Genesis to Revelation.

So the JWs teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus, and that the relationship between Jesus and God is that they are one?

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, "I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Even by saying "from my father" Jesus shows he was not claiming equality. Simply unity.

Nowhere in scripture does he claim equality with his father, nor do the Apostles ever assign him such equality.


The Jews even say that Jesus is claiming to be God. They say "You, being a Man, make Yourself God". And for that reason they tried to kill him. This is clearly taught. Its not a random conclusion that I made. The Jews even said that he was claiming to be God. The Jews tried killing him because he was saying he is God. You really deny what the Bible says about this?

Not at all, because it also shows them to be liars even in that same passage as I explain above. they did falsely accuse him of that, but nowhere in scripture does he actually do so.

Whose word do you wish to take? The lying word of the Pharisees who did all they could to frame him for things he never did?

Or the word of Jesus and the Apostles, all of which deny any equality between God and Christ?

So far you show little sign of actually thinking about what you are reading, because even the passage you use to prove your point disproves it when read carefully.

Sorry, but you do not understand scripture. You give the impression of simply parroting what you have been told without questioning it at all.

Question everything, even your own beliefs. That is what scripture tells us to do continually. After all, how can we guide others to the truth if we have not made 100% certain that what we believe is the truth. We will be teaching with a plank in our own eyes. Matthew 7:1-5.

Be careful. There are many false paths, but only one which leads to life (Matthew 7:13-14).

So how am I wrong? This is what the Bible clearly teaches.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/13/2015 2:42:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:26:21 PM, graceofgod wrote:
When Christ returns at his second coming, we"re specifically told at 1st John 3:2 that at our own resurrection that "we shall be like him." But, the Bible states at Acts 17:31 and 1st Timothy 2:5 that Christ in his post-resurrection state is described by the apostles Luke and Paul as "a man!" (Greek: anthropos). There"s no mention of Christ being Michael the Archangel. However, if the Jehovah"s Witnesses do indeed believe that Christ was recreated as an archangel, then because we"ll be just like him, if he"s now an archangel, then that would mean that in their paradise earth, all Jehovah"s Witnesses will also lose their own human natures and be made into archangels, just like their own false Jesus!
1st Corinthians 6:3 speaking of God"s people, states that they will soon judge angels: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" However, if Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, who became this angel once again after his crucifixion, when his body dissolved into gasses, but was then recreated by Jehovah as the archangel Michael. Then to be consistent shouldn"t Jehovah"s Witnesses claim that one day they"ll judge Jesus Christ?

Don't forget that the bible discusses two different resurrection. One for the "Elect" those followers of Christ who are anointed with holy spirit and as Paul teaches go to heaven to rule with Christ, and the other for those who will form the core of the fulfilment of Jehovah's original plan for the earth and humanity.

No because it says that the anointed will judge Angels, not the Archangel(s).

Don't forget that Scripture describes the one who became the Christ when on earth in Jesus body as God's "only begotten son".

How can that be when there are many sons of God, whether they be Angels or men?

There is only won way, and it fits in with Revelation 3:14 and other similar scriptures.

The one who came to earth to occupy Jesus body, the Word, God's spokesman, was the only one Jehovah "Begat" or created all by himself, and then, as Colossians tells us, worked with his father in creating absolutely everything else.

Therefore, whilst all others are sons of God, they are sons of him because he created them, as Colossians also says, through his son.

Only his son was created by himself, all alone, as the beginning, or first act, of his creation, and literally the firstborn of all creation.

That is the only possible meaning of John 1:14.

It is what makes God's son absolutely unique. (The virgin birth doesn't, because that happened once before as a sign for King Ahaz).

It is what puts him above all the Angels, even before he came to earth to "learn obedience from the things suffered" as Paul says.

It also explain his continual, humble submission to his father, even down to refusing to be called "Good teacher" saying that only God is truly good.

Incidentally, it is yet another thing which makes him The Archangel and therefore Michael.

No, the Trinity, and all it's variations are an insult to both Jehovah and Christ, calling them liars.

Scripture contains so many scattered clues that we have to follow to their inevitable conclusion.
graceofgod
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8/13/2015 2:46:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:42:02 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/13/2015 2:26:21 PM, graceofgod wrote:
When Christ returns at his second coming, we"re specifically told at 1st John 3:2 that at our own resurrection that "we shall be like him." But, the Bible states at Acts 17:31 and 1st Timothy 2:5 that Christ in his post-resurrection state is described by the apostles Luke and Paul as "a man!" (Greek: anthropos). There"s no mention of Christ being Michael the Archangel. However, if the Jehovah"s Witnesses do indeed believe that Christ was recreated as an archangel, then because we"ll be just like him, if he"s now an archangel, then that would mean that in their paradise earth, all Jehovah"s Witnesses will also lose their own human natures and be made into archangels, just like their own false Jesus!
1st Corinthians 6:3 speaking of God"s people, states that they will soon judge angels: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" However, if Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, who became this angel once again after his crucifixion, when his body dissolved into gasses, but was then recreated by Jehovah as the archangel Michael. Then to be consistent shouldn"t Jehovah"s Witnesses claim that one day they"ll judge Jesus Christ?

Don't forget that the bible discusses two different resurrection. One for the "Elect" those followers of Christ who are anointed with holy spirit and as Paul teaches go to heaven to rule with Christ, and the other for those who will form the core of the fulfilment of Jehovah's original plan for the earth and humanity.

No because it says that the anointed will judge Angels, not the Archangel(s).

Don't forget that Scripture describes the one who became the Christ when on earth in Jesus body as God's "only begotten son".

How can that be when there are many sons of God, whether they be Angels or men?

There is only won way, and it fits in with Revelation 3:14 and other similar scriptures.

The one who came to earth to occupy Jesus body, the Word, God's spokesman, was the only one Jehovah "Begat" or created all by himself, and then, as Colossians tells us, worked with his father in creating absolutely everything else.

Therefore, whilst all others are sons of God, they are sons of him because he created them, as Colossians also says, through his son.

Only his son was created by himself, all alone, as the beginning, or first act, of his creation, and literally the firstborn of all creation.

That is the only possible meaning of John 1:14.

It is what makes God's son absolutely unique. (The virgin birth doesn't, because that happened once before as a sign for King Ahaz).

It is what puts him above all the Angels, even before he came to earth to "learn obedience from the things suffered" as Paul says.

It also explain his continual, humble submission to his father, even down to refusing to be called "Good teacher" saying that only God is truly good.

Incidentally, it is yet another thing which makes him The Archangel and therefore Michael.

No, the Trinity, and all it's variations are an insult to both Jehovah and Christ, calling them liars.

Scripture contains so many scattered clues that we have to follow to their inevitable conclusion.

but it doesn't at all. no scripture supports michael being Jesus...

The jw's have confused the reading of this verse in 1 Thess. 4:16 as the question is asked, ... "does this scripture say that Jesus is the one who shouts as he is coming", or "is this scripture saying that Jesus is coming at the moment of time when an archangel shouts to Him that it is time to harvest the earth???" To answer this question, I should point out that the Father alone knows the time of the harvest. When that time is at hand, the Father sends an angel, who comes out of the temple, to give the shout of command to Jesus to reap the harvest!!! (ref. Mark 13:32 & Rev. 14:15) Jesus doesn't know the time of the harvest, only the Father knows! He is waiting for the command to come from the Father! 1 Thess. 4:16 shows the point of time the command is given by the Father, to the angel, and harmonizes with Rev. 14:15 as the angel comes out from the temple to give the command!

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Rev. 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So the voice of the archangel, is not Jesus Christ himself, but rather it is the angel whom is sent by the Father, to give the command to Jesus to reap the harvest!

In Rev. 14, we will see the actual account of the above event, and here, we see the angel, shouting to Jesus to reap the harvest! Both the angel and Jesus are shown as two separate persons!

Rev. 14:14-16
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The SDA church has misread the scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16 transforming Jesus into the archangel who "shouts," whereas Rev. 14:14-16, shows that this angel as a separate person whom is sent to give the shout of command to Jesus!

Although an angel shouts to Jesus to reap the harvest, there is nothing here that should nullify a following voice of Christ by which he speaks to the dead to arise as written in (John 5:26, 28, 29). I simply contend that the voice of 1 Thess. 4:16 is the voice of an angel whom is sent to command Jesus to reap the harvest!