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America IS NOT a Christian Nation

Pase66
Posts: 775
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8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?
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August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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8/17/2015 10:18:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

How would the Doc know they were Gay? Do they have stamps on their foreheads? Or name tags? your hypothetical question doesnt support your OP point. Is AMerica a Christian nation? Hmm...hard to say. We DO have separation of church and State, which is a damn good thing. But 80% of Americans believe in God and over half ID themselves a Christians. 80% believe in Heaven. Churches are everywhere. If you look in the writings of the founding Dads the word God" and Providence is everywhere. In the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Dec. of Indep. most of them wee Christian. believed in God. (yeah I know TJ was a Deist.) The recent GOP debate had a question based on God. All of those guys believed in Him. So an argument could be made either way for your OP. yes we are or no we aint. you got to define what you mean better by asking if we are a Christian Nation. depends who you ask too! To some of those radical Muslims we're just the opposite: The Great Satan!

God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Mobutu
Posts: 325
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8/17/2015 10:23:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I really do not like the separation of church and state as in my opinion it has damaging, detrimental effects on the moral fibre of the people and doesn't actively encourage Christianity.
mindtrainer
Posts: 28
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8/17/2015 10:23:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man? : :

Not only are most of the U.S. citizens influenced by the Beast but that's where all false gods, religions and religious ideas came from.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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8/17/2015 10:44:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:23:21 PM, mindtrainer wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man? : :

Not only are most of the U.S. citizens influenced by the Beast but that's where all false gods, religions and religious ideas came from.

The beast in a prophesy in Revelations. You do not know your scriptures. The reign and influence of the beast has not yet begun. The beast is the antichrist who will deceive the world into worshipping Satan. All the world religions continue to worship according to their scriptures and not according to any Antichrist or beast.
Your distortion of scriptures can be explained quite easily. You are scripturally illiterate and suffer from severe mental illness. With your diminished mental capacity you can only grasp limited bits of information which you further distort from poor comprehension.
Why you think God would choose a retard like you to defend Him is your personal delusion and not shared by anyone. The fact you live like a homeless beggar validates my analysis of your condition.
mindtrainer
Posts: 28
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8/17/2015 10:56:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:44:47 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/17/2015 10:23:21 PM, mindtrainer wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man? : :

Not only are most of the U.S. citizens influenced by the Beast but that's where all false gods, religions and religious ideas came from.

The beast in a prophesy in Revelations. You do not know your scriptures. The reign and influence of the beast has not yet begun. The beast is the antichrist who will deceive the world into worshipping Satan. All the world religions continue to worship according to their scriptures and not according to any Antichrist or beast.
Your distortion of scriptures can be explained quite easily. You are scripturally illiterate and suffer from severe mental illness. With your diminished mental capacity you can only grasp limited bits of information which you further distort from poor comprehension.
Why you think God would choose a retard like you to defend Him is your personal delusion and not shared by anyone. The fact you live like a homeless beggar validates my analysis of your condition. : :

The Beast is God's thoughts that made some of His people look up into the night sky after the flood and began connecting those white dots with imaginary lines to get building shapes for their false gods they built with their human hands. It also taught them shapes for the characters in their written languages and symbols for their mathematics to build those false gods and languages to share stories about them.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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8/17/2015 11:18:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:56:48 PM, mindtrainer wrote:
At 8/17/2015 10:44:47 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 8/17/2015 10:23:21 PM, mindtrainer wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man? : :

Not only are most of the U.S. citizens influenced by the Beast but that's where all false gods, religions and religious ideas came from.

The beast in a prophesy in Revelations. You do not know your scriptures. The reign and influence of the beast has not yet begun. The beast is the antichrist who will deceive the world into worshipping Satan. All the world religions continue to worship according to their scriptures and not according to any Antichrist or beast.
Your distortion of scriptures can be explained quite easily. You are scripturally illiterate and suffer from severe mental illness. With your diminished mental capacity you can only grasp limited bits of information which you further distort from poor comprehension.
Why you think God would choose a retard like you to defend Him is your personal delusion and not shared by anyone. The fact you live like a homeless beggar validates my analysis of your condition. : :

The Beast is God's thoughts that made some of His people look up into the night sky after the flood and began connecting those white dots with imaginary lines to get building shapes for their false gods they built with their human hands. It also taught them shapes for the characters in their written languages and symbols for their mathematics to build those false gods and languages to share stories about them.

That is a load of rubbish. There are no building or architecture that can possibly be produced by the pattern of dots because they do not follow any mathematical order and are random at best. They don't reflect any thought patterns either much less the thoughts of God.
Language was developed long before writing and writing owes little or nothing to the arrangements of stars.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/18/2015 12:04:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?
Politically, the US is a federation of states. By contrast, a nation (if it exists at all) is defined by language, culture, traditions, stories and (sometimes but not always) religion.

In this regard, I think the American 'nation' has always been a myth -- albeit a popular one. When the US was fighting for its own statehood, it excluded indigenes from its vision of nationhood; then African slaves -- and the deliberate exclusion of people of African descent from nationhood lasted until de-segregation -- an event still in living memory. So there are African Americans living today who were born outside any notion of US nationhood.

Nowadays, I think that US nationhood has collapsed. African Americans have US statehood, but it seems to me that more reject the nationhood of Anglo-America than embrace it. Note for example that 'Black Protestantism' is now its own religious category, with its own traditions; that African Americans have sharable and distinct dialects, customs, stories and values.

In a similar way, Hispanic Americans often preserve their own language and frequently see themselves as being Hispanic with US statehood.

Naturally, Anglo-Americans, Afro-Americans and Hispanic-Americans may all be patriotic and loyal to common society and shared statehood, but I don't think they have the same nationhood. I think the US has (so far) failed a key test of pluralism: to build an ethnically-embracing nationhood. Rather, under the rubric of 'melting pot' (for which read: Anglo-assimilation) it has set up a narrative of Anglo-Protestant American nationhood for reverence and aspiration, only to find that a large portion of its own citizenship finds it irrelevant or inadequate.

I realise it's working on that to some extent, and I'm not predicting the outcome of that effort. I should also note that there are concerted attempts to excise atheists, gays and Muslims from any notion of American nationhood, so the 'assimilate or leave' ethic is alive and well.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?
Please see my answer to 1), Pase. I think the US has no common nationhood; rather there's an eroding Anglo-Protestant myth of nationhood. In many respects, I think Evangelicalism is a reaction to that erosion -- a neotraditionalist hold-out desperately hoping for a revival of the Anglo-Protestant nation-myth.

3.) Should policy be based on religion?
Definitely, in the same way that medicine should be based on astrology.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?
Only to the extent that one keeps astrologers out of operating theatres.

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)
There are no religious rights; only intellectual rights -- the rights for humans to inquire, revere and express themselves authentically, artistically and with integrity; and social rights -- the rights for humans to be treated justly and with dignity whatever their affiliation.

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin.
I think this is spurious, Pase. The medical profession generally upholds the ethic not to refuse treatment if the need is critical and no other treatment is available. A medical professional found breaching that ethic might lose the license to practice.
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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8/18/2015 12:30:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Ha, no. This country was founded by a combination of humanists, deists, and Christians, which produced a document allowing room for Humanists, Deists, and Christians. That doctrine is of them, and so it is not Christian. It's not of God, or the Bible, it's not Christian.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

Lol, why?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

My guess is you'd have a problem with that. If it's not a bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it. Many religions could reflect that policy.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Why?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

In the case of your analogy, the right to live. To spare a life is something that is commanded.
Btw, that was not an "oh, he's not Christian, shoot him." scenario. Rather, this is a gay couple, asking a Christian bakery to bake a cake, and they refused. Big Deal. But the couple gets whiny about it. It could be possible that there may have been another place for them to go and get a cake and get hitched, instead of taking the bakery to court for honeymoon money.

You know, with all the wars and lives that our country has lost, I wonder why being gay has been such a great triumph. I mean, it's not like this hasn't happened elsewhere, or in past history(although they didn't do the rainbow deal).
And then there's continual healthcare issues with our troops. They do not get proper care, and their minds are beat to a pulp with what they've done and seen, and what has happened to them. But, no, this gay stuff is heroic. But there's starving kids, unemployment, welfare problems...no, gay stuff is important. Government stepping in and redefining what things are...gay marriage, cool stuff. Wave the flag, be supportive.

If there are Christians who wish to not do things to help along a couple guys get a cake, why can't the gays leave them alone? They had their own business anyways, they should be able to say no.
Meh, I'm done. Up to you if you want to respond to my rant lol.
Draconius
Posts: 90
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8/18/2015 1:03:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

The separation of church and state is fundamental to a FAIR legislative procedure. In order to fairly govern ALL faiths, there must be either:

1) All faiths represented in government, or
2) NO faith represented in government.

Since it is ridiculous to believe that all faiths can come together to agree on anything outside of the extreme and the obvious, the only logical choice is to have ZERO religious representation. We have all seen the extreme and ridiculous (malevolent) turn society takes when religion is granted political power. When a mystic's deity cannot be questioned, the faith cannot be questioned. The mystic, speaking on behalf of the deity, cannot be questioned, by extension. Thus, the mystic answers only to the deity, and the believers must follow. This gives the mystic unbridled authority. This is dangerous in ANY human's hands, but more so, when one claims divine authority, because ignorant faith simply reinforces itself and, ultimately, reason no longer matters.

No rational legislation can be based on faith. Only reason is a valid basis for legislation. Thus, with faith and reason being mutually exclusive, faith and religion belong separated from government, policy, and legislation, altogether.

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

The media, most politicians, and people of faith call it so, but the original laws were actually FAR more intelligent than that. The bastardization of our legislation has come at the expense of rational legislation. In short, America is what the majority call it. At present, we are still ignorant enough (as a nation) to believe it. Thus, the short answer is "Yes. America is considered a 'Christian Nation.' "

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

No. America should be a reasoned nation. Faith and reason (as mentioned previously) are mutually exclusive.

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

Never. Any policy based on ANY religion, by definition, violates the rights of all other religions, and ESPECIALLY the rights of the faithless.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Yes, and our forefathers made a genuine attempt at making this nation exactly that way. Future generations bastardized and ruined that fundamental concept.

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

Human rights FAR exceed religious rights. Any point at which religion is placed ahead of humanity places the entire future of humanity in peril.

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

This question is made moot by the Hippocratic Oath. No doctor is allowed to refuse treatment in ANY case where the person is in danger of dying. I see the parallel you are trying to draw, and it is a valid comparison, but only in extreme case... The extreme case should not EVER be the standard. The most common occurrences should set the standard. With the exception of the loss of human life, any person harboring a specific moral view SHOULD BE ALLOWED to live their life in accordance with that view (no matter how narrow or ignorant). Although I despise religion, I believe a person of faith should absolutely be allowed to practice their business in accordance with their own ethics and principles. They risk the loss of income, but to force a person to act against their own principles is still a violation of the Constitution, and any law mandating that a business owner do so is unenforceable. This is nothing but the first form of censorship, and is a gateway to allowing one segment of the population to dictate to the majority a pure and simple violation of an individual's right to the freedom of religion, by denying their right to act upon such belief. Censorship, in any form, is the first step toward totalitarian tyranny. That tyranny is no better in the hands of one segment of the population than it would be in any other.
I have no problem with the existence of a "god." It is the behavior of his fan clubs that frightens me to no end...
Pase66
Posts: 775
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8/19/2015 1:29:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:18:39 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

How would the Doc know they were Gay? Do they have stamps on their foreheads? Or name tags? your hypothetical question doesnt support your OP point. Is AMerica a Christian nation? Hmm...hard to say. We DO have separation of church and State, which is a damn good thing. But 80% of Americans believe in God and over half ID themselves a Christians. 80% believe in Heaven. Churches are everywhere. If you look in the writings of the founding Dads the word God" and Providence is everywhere. In the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Dec. of Indep. most of them wee Christian. believed in God. (yeah I know TJ was a Deist.) The recent GOP debate had a question based on God. All of those guys believed in Him. So an argument could be made either way for your OP. yes we are or no we aint. you got to define what you mean better by asking if we are a Christian Nation. depends who you ask too! To some of those radical Muslims we're just the opposite: The Great Satan!

God Bless.

Let's assume he knows. It could be a small town or something.
But let me ask you, should God even be invoked when talking about politics? Forget God, what about religion?
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Pase66
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8/19/2015 1:30:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:23:07 PM, Mobutu wrote:
I really do not like the separation of church and state as in my opinion it has damaging, detrimental effects on the moral fibre of the people and doesn't actively encourage Christianity.

Why is it a bad thing that is doesn't actively encourage Christianity? And also, when it comes to morality, I really don't think Christianity is the best ethical system to adopt. After all, just look at its history.
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Pase66
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8/19/2015 1:35:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/18/2015 12:04:57 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?
Politically, the US is a federation of states. By contrast, a nation (if it exists at all) is defined by language, culture, traditions, stories and (sometimes but not always) religion.

In this regard, I think the American 'nation' has always been a myth -- albeit a popular one. When the US was fighting for its own statehood, it excluded indigenes from its vision of nationhood; then African slaves -- and the deliberate exclusion of people of African descent from nationhood lasted until de-segregation -- an event still in living memory. So there are African Americans living today who were born outside any notion of US nationhood.

Nowadays, I think that US nationhood has collapsed. African Americans have US statehood, but it seems to me that more reject the nationhood of Anglo-America than embrace it. Note for example that 'Black Protestantism' is now its own religious category, with its own traditions; that African Americans have sharable and distinct dialects, customs, stories and values.

In a similar way, Hispanic Americans often preserve their own language and frequently see themselves as being Hispanic with US statehood.

Naturally, Anglo-Americans, Afro-Americans and Hispanic-Americans may all be patriotic and loyal to common society and shared statehood, but I don't think they have the same nationhood. I think the US has (so far) failed a key test of pluralism: to build an ethnically-embracing nationhood. Rather, under the rubric of 'melting pot' (for which read: Anglo-assimilation) it has set up a narrative of Anglo-Protestant American nationhood for reverence and aspiration, only to find that a large portion of its own citizenship finds it irrelevant or inadequate.

I realise it's working on that to some extent, and I'm not predicting the outcome of that effort. I should also note that there are concerted attempts to excise atheists, gays and Muslims from any notion of American nationhood, so the 'assimilate or leave' ethic is alive and well.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?
Please see my answer to 1), Pase. I think the US has no common nationhood; rather there's an eroding Anglo-Protestant myth of nationhood. In many respects, I think Evangelicalism is a reaction to that erosion -- a neotraditionalist hold-out desperately hoping for a revival of the Anglo-Protestant nation-myth.

3.) Should policy be based on religion?
Definitely, in the same way that medicine should be based on astrology.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?
Only to the extent that one keeps astrologers out of operating theatres.

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)
There are no religious rights; only intellectual rights -- the rights for humans to inquire, revere and express themselves authentically, artistically and with integrity; and social rights -- the rights for humans to be treated justly and with dignity whatever their affiliation.

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin.
I think this is spurious, Pase. The medical profession generally upholds the ethic not to refuse treatment if the need is critical and no other treatment is available. A medical professional found breaching that ethic might lose the license to practice.

That's a really interesting way to look at the notion of The Nation. So, in essence, people decide to categorize themselves based on their own experiences and culture, under the context of a nation? Such as Hispanic Americans, and Islamic Americans. But, when looked at the majority, one can find that it is of a Christian persuasion. What I guess I'm asking is, due to the majority being of a Christian persuasion, is the best way to categorize America (if one were to attempt) be as a Christian Nation?
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Pase66
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8/19/2015 1:39:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/18/2015 12:30:41 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Ha, no. This country was founded by a combination of humanists, deists, and Christians, which produced a document allowing room for Humanists, Deists, and Christians. That doctrine is of them, and so it is not Christian. It's not of God, or the Bible, it's not Christian.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

Lol, why?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

My guess is you'd have a problem with that. If it's not a bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it. Many religions could reflect that policy.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Why?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

In the case of your analogy, the right to live. To spare a life is something that is commanded.
Btw, that was not an "oh, he's not Christian, shoot him." scenario. Rather, this is a gay couple, asking a Christian bakery to bake a cake, and they refused. Big Deal. But the couple gets whiny about it. It could be possible that there may have been another place for them to go and get a cake and get hitched, instead of taking the bakery to court for honeymoon money.

You know, with all the wars and lives that our country has lost, I wonder why being gay has been such a great triumph. I mean, it's not like this hasn't happened elsewhere, or in past history(although they didn't do the rainbow deal).
And then there's continual healthcare issues with our troops. They do not get proper care, and their minds are beat to a pulp with what they've done and seen, and what has happened to them. But, no, this gay stuff is heroic. But there's starving kids, unemployment, welfare problems...no, gay stuff is important. Government stepping in and redefining what things are...gay marriage, cool stuff. Wave the flag, be supportive.

If there are Christians who wish to not do things to help along a couple guys get a cake, why can't the gays leave them alone? They had their own business anyways, they should be able to say no.
Meh, I'm done. Up to you if you want to respond to my rant lol.

It could be argued that, if one were to take part in a free enterprise, they would have to serve everyone unless there is an immediate danger posed. In a sense, it's like discrimination. Actually, it is discrimination. It's like a white couple not serving a black couple, or vice versa. Again, if one wants to participate in the free market, they must be willing to serve everybody.
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August_Burns_Red
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8/19/2015 1:56:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/19/2015 1:29:00 AM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/17/2015 10:18:39 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

How would the Doc know they were Gay? Do they have stamps on their foreheads? Or name tags? your hypothetical question doesnt support your OP point. Is AMerica a Christian nation? Hmm...hard to say. We DO have separation of church and State, which is a damn good thing. But 80% of Americans believe in God and over half ID themselves a Christians. 80% believe in Heaven. Churches are everywhere. If you look in the writings of the founding Dads the word God" and Providence is everywhere. In the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Dec. of Indep. most of them wee Christian. believed in God. (yeah I know TJ was a Deist.) The recent GOP debate had a question based on God. All of those guys believed in Him. So an argument could be made either way for your OP. yes we are or no we aint. you got to define what you mean better by asking if we are a Christian Nation. depends who you ask too! To some of those radical Muslims we're just the opposite: The Great Satan!

God Bless.

Let's assume he knows. It could be a small town or something.
But let me ask you, should God even be invoked when talking about politics? Forget God, what about religion?

well sure if a candidate or sitting politician wants to mention his beliefs in either God or religion I dont see a problem. or even quote from the bible,fine. If people dontt like it they dont have to vote for him. but he should never invoke scripture or his beliefs to write legislature or make policy. this of course is a hard rule to enforce because he could always deny his reasons for making policy. but I am a firm believer in separation of Church and State. Theocracies are terrible. they never work. but remember that the sep or church & state in the constitution dont forbid talking about God, but only making laws favoring or discriminating against particular beliefs, religions. God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
RuvDraba
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8/19/2015 2:20:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/19/2015 1:35:12 AM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/18/2015 12:04:57 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?
Politically, the US is a federation of states. By contrast, a nation (if it exists at all) is defined by language, culture, traditions, stories and (sometimes but not always) religion.

In this regard, I think the American 'nation' has always been a myth -- albeit a popular one. When the US was fighting for its own statehood, it excluded indigenes from its vision of nationhood; then African slaves -- and the deliberate exclusion of people of African descent from nationhood lasted until de-segregation -- an event still in living memory. So there are African Americans living today who were born outside any notion of US nationhood.

Nowadays, I think that US nationhood has collapsed.

That's a really interesting way to look at the notion of The Nation. So, in essence, people decide to categorize themselves based on their own experiences and culture, under the context of a nation? Such as Hispanic Americans, and Islamic Americans.

Yes, though of course, culture doesn't have to be defined by ethnicity or religion. Consider the subcultures that support particular football teams, for example -- they have the same stories, heroes, songs art and traditions.

Unquestionably, the US offers a sense of common nationhood to white, straight anglo Protestant males. That vision is filled with tales of white, straight anglo Protestant males carving out history, making decisions that affect everyone, achieving great things and setting models for people to be.

But does that vision of nationhood extend to African Americans? To Hispanic Americans? To Roman Catholics or Jews? To women? Homosexuals? To atheists? Muslims? Buddhists? Hindus?

I think the answer is mixed. The people who most strongly defined American nationhood have offered very narrow roles for people from groups unlike themselves, and in some cases (gays, atheists, Muslims), there has been a concerted effort from some quarters to explicitly exclude them from the narrative of nationhood entirely. That's what it means to oppose them being elected, to try to keep them out of media, reduce their social participation, or exclude them from treasured national institutions like marriage.

But, when looked at the majority, one can find that it is of a Christian persuasion. What I guess I'm asking is, due to the majority being of a Christian persuasion, is the best way to categorize America (if one were to attempt) be as a Christian Nation?

Arguably, Christianity itself took Judaism (itself a nationalistic faith), and tried to reform it to create a new, more inclusive and less xenophobic kind of nationalism. When it failed in Judaea, it was transplanted into Europe where (after substantial persecution), it was adopted as a nationalistic faith for the Roman Empire, attempting to create coherent sense of nationalism in an increasingly fragmented empire.

So built as it is on the xenophobic nationalism of Judaism, Christianity itself can be thought of as a nationalistic faith. Consider: 'Christendom' means essentially the Kingdom -- the spiritual nation-state -- of Christ. And what is 'Onward Christian Soldiers' but a nationalistic battle-hymn for Christian faith?

However, Christian nationalism isn't terribly cohesive. You can see how strong are the rivalries between Catholicism, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, for example, and even the sectional rivalries within Protestantism.

When you consider how Protestant nationalism appeared in the colonisation of the US, and how it developed from there, you can see that white American nationalism has its roots in Protestant nationalism. Those people who benefit most from that narrative (white, straight Protestant males) gain significant social advantage from insisting that this is the normative narrative -- that they are the ordinary, acceptable people -- the decision-makers, the trusted authorities, the natural community leaders -- while anyone else has to work for that privilege.

So if you categorise the US as a 'Christian nation', you are probably doing several things wrong simultaneously:
* Exhibiting ignorance: because Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians (say) have generally been accepted a lot less well in the US than Protestants;
* Inflating the claim: because once you exclude the people whose faiths have traditionally not been well-accepted (Catholics, Jews etc... -- those faiths frequently accused of being 'unamerican'), you get an over-all Protestantism rate of only about 56% -- hardly an overwhelming majority. Moreover, most of the vocal Christian nationalism can be found in just two groups -- Evangelicals and Black Protestants -- mainline Protestants tend not to be as vocal or as involved; and finally
* Grasping for hegemonistic privilege: the more normative you make your own group, and the more you alienate other groups, the more sociopolitical advantage you gain -- in employment, legislation, education policy, tax breaks, community decision-making and so on.

So... over-all, I think it's ignorant, vain, antisocial and grasping, and fails to exhibit the egalitarian principles on which the US was constitutionally founded, and whose absence early US colonists fled.
joetheripper117
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8/19/2015 2:56:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:23:07 PM, Mobutu wrote:
I really do not like the separation of church and state as in my opinion it has damaging, detrimental effects on the moral fibre of the people and doesn't actively encourage Christianity.

Separation of church and state helps both religions and the government keep their hands off of each other. It helps to stop religious groups from forcing their rules and edicts upon the rest of the population, and keeps the churches free from state control and regulation.

The fact that separation of church and state does not actively encourage Christianity is a good thing, as if it did, it would be unfair to those who are not of the Christian faith.

Also, please provide some evidence that separation of church and state is causing "detrimental effects on the moral fibre of the people".
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
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"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
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Midnight1131
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8/19/2015 5:16:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/17/2015 10:23:07 PM, Mobutu wrote:
I really do not like the separation of church and state as in my opinion it has damaging, detrimental effects on the moral fibre of the people and doesn't actively encourage Christianity.

We shouldn't actively encourage Christianity lest we wish to damn ourselves back into the Dark ages [and wasn't their "moral fibre" great back then? What with the public executions and witch burnings.]
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ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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8/20/2015 2:56:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/19/2015 1:39:15 AM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/18/2015 12:30:41 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Ha, no. This country was founded by a combination of humanists, deists, and Christians, which produced a document allowing room for Humanists, Deists, and Christians. That doctrine is of them, and so it is not Christian. It's not of God, or the Bible, it's not Christian.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

Lol, why?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

My guess is you'd have a problem with that. If it's not a bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it. Many religions could reflect that policy.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Why?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

In the case of your analogy, the right to live. To spare a life is something that is commanded.
Btw, that was not an "oh, he's not Christian, shoot him." scenario. Rather, this is a gay couple, asking a Christian bakery to bake a cake, and they refused. Big Deal. But the couple gets whiny about it. It could be possible that there may have been another place for them to go and get a cake and get hitched, instead of taking the bakery to court for honeymoon money.

You know, with all the wars and lives that our country has lost, I wonder why being gay has been such a great triumph. I mean, it's not like this hasn't happened elsewhere, or in past history(although they didn't do the rainbow deal).
And then there's continual healthcare issues with our troops. They do not get proper care, and their minds are beat to a pulp with what they've done and seen, and what has happened to them. But, no, this gay stuff is heroic. But there's starving kids, unemployment, welfare problems...no, gay stuff is important. Government stepping in and redefining what things are...gay marriage, cool stuff. Wave the flag, be supportive.

If there are Christians who wish to not do things to help along a couple guys get a cake, why can't the gays leave them alone? They had their own business anyways, they should be able to say no.
Meh, I'm done. Up to you if you want to respond to my rant lol.

It could be argued that, if one were to take part in a free enterprise, they would have to serve everyone unless there is an immediate danger posed. In a sense, it's like discrimination. Actually, it is discrimination. It's like a white couple not serving a black couple, or vice versa. Again, if one wants to participate in the free market, they must be willing to serve everybody.

It could be argued, and that isn't an issue. The point is, they have their reasons to refuse. And apparently gays have their rights to get mad and throw a fit. By making the cake, they are sponsoring something they don't believe is right. Freedom of religion ought to be apparent, and their practices, if they do not harm or promote death or human discrimination, should not be a problem.
That was not discrimination. The couple wanted a cake, not personal, or religious freedom, and it didn't effect their lifestyle economically or socially. They wanted a cake that could've been gotten somewhere else.
Here's free enterprise: an economic system in which private business operates in competition and largely free of state control.
Free of state control. This isn't a racial issue. That was people being treated like they were lower class, less-human, and etc. This is a sexual practice conflicting with religion which treats genders, and sex, as a way of showing the unity of man and woman, and not man and man. To be free of state control; seeing as how the state now defines marriage, should allow a business owner to not bake a cake, and also to not be discriminated, themselves, for doing so. If they said "go to hell", you've got a better standing. "No" is different.
Skepsikyma
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8/20/2015 3:18:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Culturally? Definitely. Politically? At one point, on a State level, yes. But the 14th amendment applied the secularism of federal government on a broad basis, and it ended there.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

The 'should' seems like a useless question. It either is, in certain respects, or it isn't.

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

Be more specific. Public policy? No. Personal policy? Why not?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

No, that would be an egregious and flagrant abrogation of both the separation of church and state and free speech. Religious organizations are free to speak politically.

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

It's a false dichotomy. When you open a business, which benefits from public investments like those courted by the local chamber of commerce, then non-discrimination is part of doing business. I, however, draw a clear line between the baker who was fined for refusing to partake in a gay wedding because it was a gay wedding, and the one who was fined for refusing to decorate a cake with pro-gay slogans. I think that you start to abrogate rights of conscience when you go beyond enforcing equal treatment and begin to to completely eliminate ethical boundaries. The first is part of the obligation of the bakery to not systematically refuse to serve portions of a community which is forced to support it via tax dollars, the second has no real justification. I shouldn't be able to walk into a Jewish bakery and demand that someone make a cake with lovely little pictures of people being rolled into ovens by men in Nazi uniforms, then sue them if they refuse. The point is non-discrimination, not 'the customer is always right' taken to its absurd conclusions and enforced by a legal apparatus.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Pase66
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8/20/2015 6:58:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/20/2015 2:56:55 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/19/2015 1:39:15 AM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/18/2015 12:30:41 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Ha, no. This country was founded by a combination of humanists, deists, and Christians, which produced a document allowing room for Humanists, Deists, and Christians. That doctrine is of them, and so it is not Christian. It's not of God, or the Bible, it's not Christian.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

Lol, why?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

My guess is you'd have a problem with that. If it's not a bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it. Many religions could reflect that policy.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Why?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

In the case of your analogy, the right to live. To spare a life is something that is commanded.
Btw, that was not an "oh, he's not Christian, shoot him." scenario. Rather, this is a gay couple, asking a Christian bakery to bake a cake, and they refused. Big Deal. But the couple gets whiny about it. It could be possible that there may have been another place for them to go and get a cake and get hitched, instead of taking the bakery to court for honeymoon money.

You know, with all the wars and lives that our country has lost, I wonder why being gay has been such a great triumph. I mean, it's not like this hasn't happened elsewhere, or in past history(although they didn't do the rainbow deal).
And then there's continual healthcare issues with our troops. They do not get proper care, and their minds are beat to a pulp with what they've done and seen, and what has happened to them. But, no, this gay stuff is heroic. But there's starving kids, unemployment, welfare problems...no, gay stuff is important. Government stepping in and redefining what things are...gay marriage, cool stuff. Wave the flag, be supportive.

If there are Christians who wish to not do things to help along a couple guys get a cake, why can't the gays leave them alone? They had their own business anyways, they should be able to say no.
Meh, I'm done. Up to you if you want to respond to my rant lol.

It could be argued that, if one were to take part in a free enterprise, they would have to serve everyone unless there is an immediate danger posed. In a sense, it's like discrimination. Actually, it is discrimination. It's like a white couple not serving a black couple, or vice versa. Again, if one wants to participate in the free market, they must be willing to serve everybody.

It could be argued, and that isn't an issue. The point is, they have their reasons to refuse. And apparently gays have their rights to get mad and throw a fit. By making the cake, they are sponsoring something they don't believe is right. Freedom of religion ought to be apparent, and their practices, if they do not harm or promote death or human discrimination, should not be a problem.
That was not discrimination. The couple wanted a cake, not personal, or religious freedom, and it didn't effect their lifestyle economically or socially. They wanted a cake that could've been gotten somewhere else.
Here's free enterprise: an economic system in which private business operates in competition and largely free of state control.
Free of state control. This isn't a racial issue. That was people being treated like they were lower class, less-human, and etc. This is a sexual practice conflicting with religion which treats genders, and sex, as a way of showing the unity of man and woman, and not man and man. To be free of state control; seeing as how the state now defines marriage, should allow a business owner to not bake a cake, and also to not be discriminated, themselves, for doing so. If they said "go to hell", you've got a better standing. "No" is different.

Okay. Let's make an assumption. Let's assume that everyone in the United States was against homosexuality. Now, a homosexual couple wanted food. But no one would be willing to sell them food, because everyone is against homosexuality, and believe that in selling them food, they would somehow be endorsing homosexuality. So, it is near to impossible for this homosexual couple to procure food. Now, let me ask you a question. Is this right? The thought experiment I proposed right here.
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fromantle
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8/20/2015 7:30:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You make many good points and question the motives behind the laws and politics.
The label Christian embraces a huge variation of persons and beliefs.
We now have secular Christians and big bang Christians, but there can be little doubt that the Christian teachings form the basis of western thought.
Now that science has brought into question many of the things formally and generally accepted a big upheaval had been brought upon our way of thought.Certainty is a thing of the past but the morality of Christianity is still largely accepted in western nations.
The boundaries of morality have been extended to include many minority groups such as in same sex marriage and where Christianity conflicts with freedom it is being eixtended. to include every person.
In time the same thing will happen to Islam for we are moving into an age of individual freedom. Tyranny is on the run adapt or die is the ultimatum given to religios
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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8/21/2015 2:51:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/20/2015 6:58:55 PM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/20/2015 2:56:55 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/19/2015 1:39:15 AM, Pase66 wrote:
At 8/18/2015 12:30:41 AM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

Ha, no. This country was founded by a combination of humanists, deists, and Christians, which produced a document allowing room for Humanists, Deists, and Christians. That doctrine is of them, and so it is not Christian. It's not of God, or the Bible, it's not Christian.

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

Lol, why?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

My guess is you'd have a problem with that. If it's not a bad policy, there's nothing wrong with it. Many religions could reflect that policy.

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

Why?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

In the case of your analogy, the right to live. To spare a life is something that is commanded.
Btw, that was not an "oh, he's not Christian, shoot him." scenario. Rather, this is a gay couple, asking a Christian bakery to bake a cake, and they refused. Big Deal. But the couple gets whiny about it. It could be possible that there may have been another place for them to go and get a cake and get hitched, instead of taking the bakery to court for honeymoon money.

You know, with all the wars and lives that our country has lost, I wonder why being gay has been such a great triumph. I mean, it's not like this hasn't happened elsewhere, or in past history(although they didn't do the rainbow deal).
And then there's continual healthcare issues with our troops. They do not get proper care, and their minds are beat to a pulp with what they've done and seen, and what has happened to them. But, no, this gay stuff is heroic. But there's starving kids, unemployment, welfare problems...no, gay stuff is important. Government stepping in and redefining what things are...gay marriage, cool stuff. Wave the flag, be supportive.

If there are Christians who wish to not do things to help along a couple guys get a cake, why can't the gays leave them alone? They had their own business anyways, they should be able to say no.
Meh, I'm done. Up to you if you want to respond to my rant lol.

It could be argued that, if one were to take part in a free enterprise, they would have to serve everyone unless there is an immediate danger posed. In a sense, it's like discrimination. Actually, it is discrimination. It's like a white couple not serving a black couple, or vice versa. Again, if one wants to participate in the free market, they must be willing to serve everybody.

It could be argued, and that isn't an issue. The point is, they have their reasons to refuse. And apparently gays have their rights to get mad and throw a fit. By making the cake, they are sponsoring something they don't believe is right. Freedom of religion ought to be apparent, and their practices, if they do not harm or promote death or human discrimination, should not be a problem.
That was not discrimination. The couple wanted a cake, not personal, or religious freedom, and it didn't effect their lifestyle economically or socially. They wanted a cake that could've been gotten somewhere else.
Here's free enterprise: an economic system in which private business operates in competition and largely free of state control.
Free of state control. This isn't a racial issue. That was people being treated like they were lower class, less-human, and etc. This is a sexual practice conflicting with religion which treats genders, and sex, as a way of showing the unity of man and woman, and not man and man. To be free of state control; seeing as how the state now defines marriage, should allow a business owner to not bake a cake, and also to not be discriminated, themselves, for doing so. If they said "go to hell", you've got a better standing. "No" is different.

Okay. Let's make an assumption. Let's assume that everyone in the United States was against homosexuality. Now, a homosexual couple wanted food. But no one would be willing to sell them food, because everyone is against homosexuality, and believe that in selling them food, they would somehow be endorsing homosexuality.

Look, you are, again speaking of the right to live(staying alive). The point of their want of a cake was for celebrating something that blatantly went against what the bakery believed. "Assumption" has a particular word in it, I think, for a reason. Stop being hypothetical.

So, it is near to impossible for this homosexual couple to procure food. Now, let me ask you a question. Is this right? The thought experiment I proposed right here.

Well, it sucks. For one, being together, or being married, has nothing to do with staying alive. Secondly, not giving them food is saying "go and die; rot in a hole." That is against Christianity: "You shall not kill." I stated that before.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/14/2015 5:00:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

Then why do you pass out gifts on Christmas, which is a Christian holiday?
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/14/2015 5:03:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:00:43 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

Then why do you pass out gifts on Christmas, which is a Christian holiday?

Tradition. Sense of community and family. Shared experiences which help solidify social and culture bonds between those who also participate. Because the giving of gifts is expected to be mutual and I know I will receive them from others.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/14/2015 5:08:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:03:54 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:00:43 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 8/17/2015 9:49:47 PM, Pase66 wrote:
The separation of church and state. These are the words that, to me at least, make America a great country. No one religion shall dictate policy that effects everybody. The masses (in this case, Christians) shouldn't dictate the fate of the minority (those of other faiths, or lack of). But it has happened. The religious right have succeeded in oppressing others using their ancient ideology. Some examples are such;

1.) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
2.) Abortion
3.) (Until recently) Homosexual Rights
4.) (Somehow) Climate Change
5.) School Curriculum

I have stated my beliefs above. But now, I would like to pose some questions.

1.) Even though the majority of people in America are Christian, is America a Christian Nation?

2.) The majority of people in America are Christian. Should America be a Christian nation?

3.) Should policy be based on religion?

4.) Should we make a deliberate attempt to keep religion out of policy?

5.) What is more important; human rights, or religious rights? (Refer to the case of the Christian bakery refusing to service a gay couple)

5a. A thought experiment referring to the above case of the Christian Bakery; suppose that there was a gay couple, one day, driving along a lonely road. Suddenly, one part of the couple, got a heart attack. So his partner drove him to the nearest doctor, and in fact, the only doctor for quite a distance. Now, this doctor runs his own private practice, and thus "follows his own rules". Now, this doctor is a fundamental Christian, and believes that even coming into contact with homosexuals is a sin. So, the doctor decides to refuse treatment to the couple. Now, keep in mind there are no doctors anywhere else. The gay man will die if he's not treated. But at the same time, the doctor holds a sincere religious belief. Should the doctor be forced to treat the gay man?

Then why do you pass out gifts on Christmas, which is a Christian holiday?

Tradition. Sense of community and family. Shared experiences which help solidify social and culture bonds between those who also participate. Because the giving of gifts is expected to be mutual and I know I will receive them from others.

See? That's how wonderful Christianity can be. It is so much so that you got sucked in, can't get away, and love participating. You might as well look into Jesus Christ(the reason for all this joy and comrodary, and find the source, then place him in your heart.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/14/2015 5:14:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:08:13 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:

Tradition. Sense of community and family. Shared experiences which help solidify social and culture bonds between those who also participate. Because the giving of gifts is expected to be mutual and I know I will receive them from others.

See? That's how wonderful Christianity can be. It is so much so that you got sucked in, can't get away, and love participating. You might as well look into Jesus Christ(the reason for all this joy and comrodary, and find the source, then place him in your heart.

I don't see it as having anything to do with Christianity no more than it has to do with the Pagan rituals from which many Christmas traditions were adopted. Nor does the "wonder" of Christianity have anything to do with why I was "sucked in." I participate in Christmas because I was included in such celebrations growing up, so I place value in them by way of nostalgia and remembrance, not because of any religious notions.

As far as JC. I've looked into him, judge him to be a fictional character. My heart lies with Indiana Jones. I find him to be more engaging and compelling and just as likely to grant me eternal life.
GrittyWorm
Posts: 1,566
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12/14/2015 5:19:33 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:14:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:08:13 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:

Tradition. Sense of community and family. Shared experiences which help solidify social and culture bonds between those who also participate. Because the giving of gifts is expected to be mutual and I know I will receive them from others.

See? That's how wonderful Christianity can be. It is so much so that you got sucked in, can't get away, and love participating. You might as well look into Jesus Christ(the reason for all this joy and comrodary, and find the source, then place him in your heart.

I don't see it as having anything to do with Christianity no more than it has to do with the Pagan rituals from which many Christmas traditions were adopted. Nor does the "wonder" of Christianity have anything to do with why I was "sucked in." I participate in Christmas because I was included in such celebrations growing up, so I place value in them by way of nostalgia and remembrance, not because of any religious notions.

As far as JC. I've looked into him, judge him to be a fictional character. My heart lies with Indiana Jones. I find him to be more engaging and compelling and just as likely to grant me eternal life.

Atheist historians say he is a historical figure. Do you sing "Christ is the Lord" or "hark the herald angels Sing" at Christmas? Are those who surrounded you with Christmas in the dark about your Atheism?
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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12/14/2015 5:23:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/14/2015 5:19:33 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:14:07 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 12/14/2015 5:08:13 PM, GrittyWorm wrote:

Tradition. Sense of community and family. Shared experiences which help solidify social and culture bonds between those who also participate. Because the giving of gifts is expected to be mutual and I know I will receive them from others.

See? That's how wonderful Christianity can be. It is so much so that you got sucked in, can't get away, and love participating. You might as well look into Jesus Christ(the reason for all this joy and comrodary, and find the source, then place him in your heart.

I don't see it as having anything to do with Christianity no more than it has to do with the Pagan rituals from which many Christmas traditions were adopted. Nor does the "wonder" of Christianity have anything to do with why I was "sucked in." I participate in Christmas because I was included in such celebrations growing up, so I place value in them by way of nostalgia and remembrance, not because of any religious notions.

As far as JC. I've looked into him, judge him to be a fictional character. My heart lies with Indiana Jones. I find him to be more engaging and compelling and just as likely to grant me eternal life.

Atheist historians say he is a historical figure.

And?

Do you sing "Christ is the Lord"

No.

or "hark the herald angels Sing" at Christmas?

Yeah. I sing about tons of fictional characters. Rudolph. Santa. Frosty.

Are those who surrounded you with Christmas in the dark about your Atheism?

Some yes. Some no.
GrittyWorm
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12/14/2015 5:23:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Prophecy:

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.

"ISIS beheads 21 Christians"

http://www.ijreview.com...

--

A few things the Bible says concerning the end of days and the condition of man:

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our fathers' days, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

Matthew 24:6 - And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet

Matthew 24:7 - For nation shall rise against nation, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Timothy 3:1 - 3:5
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

Psychiatrist says changes are evidence of society becoming 'more selfish'
It's" not just your imagination " young people really are getting ruder.

Today"s 18 to 34-year-olds are less likely to say hello to neighbours or open the door for the elderly than those aged over 55.

They are also more reluctant to give a cup of tea to builders or tip the postman at Christmas.

Proof: A study has shown that younger people are ruder, with those aged 18-34 less likely to open the door for the elderly or tip the postman at Christmas than those aged over 55
Research showed the age group were 23 per cent less likely, on average, to carry out common courtesies than over-55s.

Neighbours were ignored by nearly 35 per cent of the group compared with only 15 per cent of over-55s.

Youngsters were also 18 per cent less likely to open a door for a woman or an elderly person, 17 per cent less willing to give up their seat on public transport for a pregnant woman and 12 per cent less likely to offer it to an elderly passenger.

Selfish: Psychiatrist Dr Clive Sherlock said the changes in behaviour were evidence of society becoming more selfish and a 'lack of respect' and that technology was encouraging people to be more 'involved in themselves'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

--

Jesus hystorical?

The consensus among historians, even Atheist historians, is that Jesus did exist.

http://www.is-there-a-god.info...

http://www.strangenotions.com...

--

The Big Bang
So the very beginning of the universe remains pretty murky. Scientists think they can pick the story up at about 10 to the minus 36 seconds " one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second " after the Big Bang.
At that point, they believe, the universe underwent an extremely brief and dramatic period of inflation, expanding faster than the speed of light. It doubled in size perhaps 100 times or more, all within the span of a few tiny fractions of a second.

http://m.space.com...

"The Biblical creation"

1)Genesis 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

2)Genesis 1:4
And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness.

Isaiah 51:13
You have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth.

--

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

TEMPERATURES ARE RISING ACROSS THE U.S.
Temperatures from 2001 to 2012 were warmer than any previous decade in every region of the United States.

https://m.whitehouse.gov...