Total Posts:85|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Presupposing Spirituality

Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 3:40:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In light of the recent discussions on this topic, I would like to broach a question:

What role does the "spirit" play in our existence here on Earth? Even our personalities are determined by the physical brain, with the case of one Phineas Gage being one of the earliest realizations/demonstrations of such (https://en.wikipedia.org...). We also have a plethora medications that can significantly alter someone's decision-making abilities and psychological state, and effectively change "who" the person is.

Further, "psychologists have worked out that all personality traits can be divided into five factors, commonly called the Big Five: conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, and openness/intellect. Colin DeYoung at the University of Minnesota and colleagues wanted to know if these personality factors correlated with the size of structures in the brain." (http://www.sciencedaily.com...)

The spiritual essence of someone does not correlate with knowledge and memory, and can be observed with simple conditions like amnesia and Alzheimer's disease. Essentially, if knowledge and memories were held by the spiritual component, then physical effects to the body should not affect them.

Since our "physical selves" are shown to be a result of the physical brain, I don't see how a spiritual [non-physical] component could function as anything more that a sponge that simply absorbs/stores information that is gathered by the brain.

To reiterate, if it is assumed that such as thing as a spirit does exist for each individual, then what does it do, exactly?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 3:44:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 3:40:40 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In light of the recent discussions on this topic, I would like to broach a question:

What role does the "spirit" play in our existence here on Earth? Even our personalities are determined by the physical brain, with the case of one Phineas Gage being one of the earliest realizations/demonstrations of such (https://en.wikipedia.org...). We also have a plethora medications that can significantly alter someone's decision-making abilities and psychological state, and effectively change "who" the person is.

Further, "psychologists have worked out that all personality traits can be divided into five factors, commonly called the Big Five: conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, and openness/intellect. Colin DeYoung at the University of Minnesota and colleagues wanted to know if these personality factors correlated with the size of structures in the brain." (http://www.sciencedaily.com...)

The spiritual essence of someone does not correlate with knowledge and memory, and can be observed with simple conditions like amnesia and Alzheimer's disease. Essentially, if knowledge and memories were held by the spiritual component, then physical effects to the body should not affect them.

Since our "physical selves" are shown to be a result of the physical brain, I don't see how a spiritual [non-physical] component could function as anything more that a sponge that simply absorbs/stores information that is gathered by the brain.

To reiterate, if it is assumed that such as thing as a spirit does exist for each individual, then what does it do, exactly?

The word 'spirit' has yet to be defined as to what it is as opposed to what it is not.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 3:49:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 3:44:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

The word 'spirit' has yet to be defined as to what it is as opposed to what it is not.

That's why I'm trying to "skip over" that part a bit. From the discussions and explanations I have seen thus far, the working definition is still reliant on the subjective concept of what each individual imagines and understands it to be. I have not seen any consensus on a concise, clear, universal meaning, yet.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 4:21:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 3:40:40 PM, Chaosism wrote:
In light of the recent discussions on this topic, I would like to broach a question:

What role does the "spirit" play in our existence here on Earth? Even our personalities are determined by the physical brain, with the case of one Phineas Gage being one of the earliest realizations/demonstrations of such (https://en.wikipedia.org...). We also have a plethora medications that can significantly alter someone's decision-making abilities and psychological state, and effectively change "who" the person is.

Further, "psychologists have worked out that all personality traits can be divided into five factors, commonly called the Big Five: conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, and openness/intellect. Colin DeYoung at the University of Minnesota and colleagues wanted to know if these personality factors correlated with the size of structures in the brain." (http://www.sciencedaily.com...)

The spiritual essence of someone does not correlate with knowledge and memory, and can be observed with simple conditions like amnesia and Alzheimer's disease. Essentially, if knowledge and memories were held by the spiritual component, then physical effects to the body should not affect them.

Since our "physical selves" are shown to be a result of the physical brain, I don't see how a spiritual [non-physical] component could function as anything more that a sponge that simply absorbs/stores information that is gathered by the brain.

To reiterate, if it is assumed that such as thing as a spirit does exist for each individual, then what does it do, exactly?

The spirit is the embodiment of the total self.

1. First there is the brain that reacts to external stimuli and processes the information to form our reality of the world we live in.

2. Then there is consciousness which transcends the mere firing of synaptic connections in the brain. Consciousness gives us the awareness of self.

3. Consciousness is the bridge between the functioning brain and the awareness of self and spirit is the embodiment of the total self which is the unique marker that identifies the individual. That is why there can be no two spirits alike even though the brain and consciousness is present in everyone. Spirit is the essence of ones being which identify us as the sum total of all our parts shaped by thoughts, experiences that are uniquely ours.

It is our consciousness that makes us aware of this spirt world because it is the bridge between our perception of reality and self and others.

So what does the spirit do? It is the spirit that cast shadows and leaves an influence behind long after the physical body has perished.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

The breath of God. It flows through everything.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

The breath of God. It flows through everything.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up. You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:27:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

Allow me to state that again, I am well aware of what physics states about energy, hence it has nothing to do with incredulity. Making stuff up on your part does not mean an understanding on anyone else part. If you can't show the properties of "spirit", then you're just blowing hot air.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:33:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:27:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

Allow me to state that again, I am well aware of what physics states about energy, hence it has nothing to do with incredulity. Making stuff up on your part does not mean an understanding on anyone else part. If you can't show the properties of "spirit", then you're just blowing hot air.

If you are well aware of what physics states about energy, why don't you demonstrate this? By all means, show us the properties of energy.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:43:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:33:43 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:27:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

Allow me to state that again, I am well aware of what physics states about energy, hence it has nothing to do with incredulity. Making stuff up on your part does not mean an understanding on anyone else part. If you can't show the properties of "spirit", then you're just blowing hot air.

If you are well aware of what physics states about energy, why don't you demonstrate this? By all means, show us the properties of energy.

One learns those things in school. Have you ever been to school?

This is about YOUR claim, that 'spirit' is the same as energy, so the onus is on you to produce that evidence. If you need help, you can use this site as reference:

http://physics.info...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:44:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:43:49 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:33:43 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:27:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

Allow me to state that again, I am well aware of what physics states about energy, hence it has nothing to do with incredulity. Making stuff up on your part does not mean an understanding on anyone else part. If you can't show the properties of "spirit", then you're just blowing hot air.

If you are well aware of what physics states about energy, why don't you demonstrate this? By all means, show us the properties of energy.

One learns those things in school. Have you ever been to school?

This is about YOUR claim, that 'spirit' is the same as energy, so the onus is on you to produce that evidence. If you need help, you can use this site as reference:

http://physics.info...

As I thought, you don't understand anything, you're just blowing smoke. Clearly you can't tell feces from shoe polish.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:54:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thank you for your response.

At 8/24/2015 4:21:05 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The spirit is the embodiment of the total self.

1. First there is the brain that reacts to external stimuli and processes the information to form our reality of the world we live in.

2. Then there is consciousness which transcends the mere firing of synaptic connections in the brain. Consciousness gives us the awareness of self.

3. Consciousness is the bridge between the functioning brain and the awareness of self and spirit is the embodiment of the total self which is the unique marker that identifies the individual. That is why there can be no two spirits alike even though the brain and consciousness is present in everyone. Spirit is the essence of ones being which identify us as the sum total of all our parts shaped by thoughts, experiences that are uniquely ours.

I believe that this requires a stance of Cartesian Dualism (mind and body are separate things) and to reject the notion that consciousness could be a product of the physical processes of the brain. Dualism has a strong intuitive appeal, but the great advances in neuroscience are encroaching on the concept of dualism. Specifically, in such terms as potentially linking mirror neurons to self-awareness (http://about-brains.com...).

Do you reject the notion that our consciousness is derived from the physical brain? If so, why?

It is our consciousness that makes us aware of this spirt world because it is the bridge between our perception of reality and self and others.

What is the "spirit world" in this context? By the sound of this description, spirit is a component of the physical body that bolsters information processing power. Am I far off base with this thought?

So what does the spirit do? It is the spirit that cast shadows and leaves an influence behind long after the physical body has perished.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the poetic metaphor clearly. Can you elaborate, please?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:56:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:44:58 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:43:49 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:33:43 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:27:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:22:38 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:14:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:08:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:38:52 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Baloney. I know exactly how physics describes energy, yet none of those properties have ever been observed outside of energy. You're just making that up. Lame.

A rose by any other name would be just as beautiful. I'm not making anything up.

Clearly, you are making it up.

You can either accept what I say or not, but the fact of the matter is that I am a theologian and this is how I understand the concept.

The concept is complete bs and you have shown yourself to be a very poor theologian.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

Allow me to state that again, I am well aware of what physics states about energy, hence it has nothing to do with incredulity. Making stuff up on your part does not mean an understanding on anyone else part. If you can't show the properties of "spirit", then you're just blowing hot air.

If you are well aware of what physics states about energy, why don't you demonstrate this? By all means, show us the properties of energy.

One learns those things in school. Have you ever been to school?

This is about YOUR claim, that 'spirit' is the same as energy, so the onus is on you to produce that evidence. If you need help, you can use this site as reference:

http://physics.info...

As I thought, you don't understand anything, you're just blowing smoke. Clearly you can't tell feces from shoe polish.

So, you can't support your claim? Just say so, then.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 5:58:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Given that Harikrish claims to be someone who has studied Vedanta, you have to understand that his concept of self might be a little bit different than what you are thinking of.

It would probably help to ask him what he means by "self".
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 6:09:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:58:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Given that Harikrish claims to be someone who has studied Vedanta, you have to understand that his concept of self might be a little bit different than what you are thinking of.

It would probably help to ask him what he means by "self".

Thank you. I was just beginning to read up on Vedanta.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 5:56:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
So, you can't support your claim? Just say so, then.

I've given you dictionary definitions of concepts before, and you simply refuse to accept them. I'm not dumb enough to think that anything will get through to you, but for those who might be watching, Merriam-Webster can teach a thing or two.

Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

Physical- of or relating to physics : characterized or produced by the forces and operations of physics

Physics- a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions

Organism- a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 10:11:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:56:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
So, you can't support your claim? Just say so, then.

I've given you dictionary definitions of concepts before, and you simply refuse to accept them. I'm not dumb enough to think that anything will get through to you, but for those who might be watching, Merriam-Webster can teach a thing or two.

Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

Physical- of or relating to physics : characterized or produced by the forces and operations of physics

Physics- a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions

Organism- a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole

There must be some mistake, are you actually using the Dictionary as evidence for the existence of things?

Elves, pixies, trolls, leprechauns, unicorns... all words in the Dictionary, and of course, they have never been shown to exist, even though physical, physics and organisms have not.

I hope that Merriam-Webster has taught you something, that even though it provides the definitions for things in the English language, they make no claim on the existence of any of those things, nor can they.

I hope this was helpful.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,652
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2015 10:12:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry, that was:

Elves, pixies, trolls, leprechauns, unicorns... all words in the Dictionary, and of course, they have never been shown to exist, even though physical, physics and organisms have.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:13:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?

Only with a narrow understanding of the word "life". Consider these other definitions..

an animating and shaping force or principle

the form or pattern of something existing in reality

a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being

Everything in creation is in constant flux and motion. The universe is alive in this sense. That is what is meant. Spirit pervades everything in creation.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:15:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 2:13:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?

Only with a narrow understanding of the word "life". Consider these other definitions..

an animating and shaping force or principle

the form or pattern of something existing in reality

a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being

Everything in creation is in constant flux and motion. The universe is alive in this sense. That is what is meant. Spirit pervades everything in creation.

Sounds like Obi-Wan Kenobi describing the Force to Luke Skywalker.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:25:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/24/2015 10:11:50 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 5:56:01 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
So, you can't support your claim? Just say so, then.

I've given you dictionary definitions of concepts before, and you simply refuse to accept them. I'm not dumb enough to think that anything will get through to you, but for those who might be watching, Merriam-Webster can teach a thing or two.

Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

Physical- of or relating to physics : characterized or produced by the forces and operations of physics

Physics- a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions

Organism- a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole

There must be some mistake, are you actually using the Dictionary as evidence for the existence of things?

Elves, pixies, trolls, leprechauns, unicorns... all words in the Dictionary, and of course, they have never been shown to exist, even though physical, physics and organisms have not.

I hope that Merriam-Webster has taught you something, that even though it provides the definitions for things in the English language, they make no claim on the existence of any of those things, nor can they.

I hope this was helpful.

These things, by definition, exist independent of their definitions. They are observable phenomena, and there are many languages to describe them. There are certain phenomena that exhibit these qualities.

If you define God as "The Supreme or Ultimate Reality", it is pretty obvious that this exists outside the definition of the word, which is a representation of the supreme or ultimate reality. The word itself is a representation of something that actually exists.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:28:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 2:15:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:13:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?

Only with a narrow understanding of the word "life". Consider these other definitions..

an animating and shaping force or principle

the form or pattern of something existing in reality

a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being

Everything in creation is in constant flux and motion. The universe is alive in this sense. That is what is meant. Spirit pervades everything in creation.

Sounds like Obi-Wan Kenobi describing the Force to Luke Skywalker.

The impermanent and constantly changing nature of creation is something that can be observed. The Spirit would be the force behind this. Like I said, the concept can best be equated to the concept of energy in physics.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:31:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 2:28:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:15:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:13:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?

Only with a narrow understanding of the word "life". Consider these other definitions..

an animating and shaping force or principle

the form or pattern of something existing in reality

a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being

Everything in creation is in constant flux and motion. The universe is alive in this sense. That is what is meant. Spirit pervades everything in creation.

Sounds like Obi-Wan Kenobi describing the Force to Luke Skywalker.

The impermanent and constantly changing nature of creation is something that can be observed. The Spirit would be the force behind this. Like I said, the concept can best be equated to the concept of energy in physics.

Energy is well defined, detectable, measurable, and well understood. What you describe fits none of these categories. Your analogy is deeply flawed.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2015 2:38:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 2:31:49 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:28:11 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:15:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/25/2015 2:13:13 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 8:23:35 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:14:34 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 8/24/2015 6:06:30 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 8/24/2015 4:29:24 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
The closest approximation to what "spirit" represents would be how physics describes "energy".

Are you familiar with the concept of energy from a physics standpoint? I understand that you are forming an imperfect analogy, but can you tell me some specific features they have in common that leads you to this conclusion?

The breath of God. It flows through everything.

That sounds pantheistic, but implies that the "breath of God" is a separate entity from "everything". What is the purpose of the "breath of God"? What is the difference between an object with it and an object without it?

At 8/24/2015 4:34:10 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
People often times confuse "spirit" with "soul".

Then I am likely conflating the two, as well.

The soul represents "the sea of emotions" or the constructs that tend to define the ego.

So "soul" represents one's personality and emotions and whatnot, and that the "soul" is not really an independent entity from the physical body?

Spirituality is the art of aligning the soul with spirit, or to tune yourself better to the way things are. Really, it's about submission or acceptance of reality, which brings peace.

Are you saying that "spirit" is the world/reality "as it really is" beyond our perception?

The definitions I just posted should answer these questions. If you have any questions after that, I'll do my best to answer.

I don't see that the presented definitions answered these questions.

At 8/24/2015 6:12:01 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Spirit - an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

So, spirituality, a.k.a. "breath of God", only flows through living organisms, then? Not "everything"?

Only with a narrow understanding of the word "life". Consider these other definitions..

an animating and shaping force or principle

the form or pattern of something existing in reality

a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being

Everything in creation is in constant flux and motion. The universe is alive in this sense. That is what is meant. Spirit pervades everything in creation.

Sounds like Obi-Wan Kenobi describing the Force to Luke Skywalker.

The impermanent and constantly changing nature of creation is something that can be observed. The Spirit would be the force behind this. Like I said, the concept can best be equated to the concept of energy in physics.

Energy is well defined, detectable, measurable, and well understood. What you describe fits none of these categories. Your analogy is deeply flawed.

Only because you won't accept my definitions.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer