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A Message to Sunnis and Shias

Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.
uncung
Posts: 3,467
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8/25/2015 4:15:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

Islam is about Quran and Hadith. In the true Islam there is no such sunni and syiah.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/25/2015 4:24:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:15:34 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

Islam is about Quran and Hadith. In the true Islam there is no such sunni and syiah.

I'd much rather have some sort of group with me though.
uncung
Posts: 3,467
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8/25/2015 4:47:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd much rather have some sort of group with me though.

follow the group who adhere the Quran and hadith or at least who don't oppose both.
shalal12
Posts: 303
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8/25/2015 10:55:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:15:34 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

Islam is about Quran and Hadith. In the true Islam there is no such sunni and syiah.

I the name of God

Shia Muslims also believe that Islam is Quran+Hadith however, the question rises here, Hadith from who? And who can give us the true interpretations of Quran?
Are we allowed to accept Hadith and sayings of the companions who insulted Muhammad (pbuh), betrayed him and his successor, tried to kill him and killed his daughter who was among prophet's Ahl-al-Bayt(The kin and house hold of prophet).

Muhammad (pbuh) says in Thaqalayn Hadith: "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al-Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al-Kawthar on the Day of Judgment)."
Muhammad(pbuh) himself emphasizes that Quran should be beside Ahl-al Bayt and no one can succeed in Islam without Ahl- al Bayt as Quran and Ahl-al Bayt will never separate from each other until the day of judgment.

Ahl-al Bayt are the mountain of science, ability and purification and it can be easily proved from Quran and Hadith books from both Shia and Sunni sources. Allah purifies them and asks us to love them and Muhammad (pbuh) trains them and joins them to Quran.

Quran 42:23
That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).

Quran 33:33
"....Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household [Ahl-al-bayt], and to purify you with [extensive] purification."
uncung
Posts: 3,467
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8/25/2015 1:44:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 10:55:56 AM, shalal12 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:15:34 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:
I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

Islam is about Quran and Hadith. In the true Islam there is no such sunni and syiah.

I the name of God

Shia Muslims also believe that Islam is Quran+Hadith however, the question rises here, Hadith from who? And who can give us the true interpretations of Quran?
Are we allowed to accept Hadith and sayings of the companions who insulted Muhammad (pbuh), betrayed him and his successor, tried to kill him and killed his daughter who was among prophet's Ahl-al-Bayt(The kin and house hold of prophet).

Muhammad (pbuh) says in Thaqalayn Hadith: "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al-Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al-Kawthar on the Day of Judgment)."
Muhammad(pbuh) himself emphasizes that Quran should be beside Ahl-al Bayt and no one can succeed in Islam without Ahl- al Bayt as Quran and Ahl-al Bayt will never separate from each other until the day of judgment.

Ahl-al Bayt are the mountain of science, ability and purification and it can be easily proved from Quran and Hadith books from both Shia and Sunni sources. Allah purifies them and asks us to love them and Muhammad (pbuh) trains them and joins them to Quran.

Quran 42:23
That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).

Quran 33:33
"....Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household [Ahl-al-bayt], and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

But Syiahs are not muslims, period.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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8/25/2015 4:47:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

expect**
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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8/25/2015 4:47:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Or, they are right and you are talking bullsh1t.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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8/25/2015 4:52:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:47:54 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Or, they are right and you are talking bullsh1t.

Dude you dont know what we talking about
Never fart near dog
shalal12
Posts: 303
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8/25/2015 5:33:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Brother, Imamat is not a fabricated degree or invented by us. It is a degree which is different from Nubuvvat degree(a degree given to prophets). Some dominant prophets are given Imamat degree and they have both Nubuvvat and Imamat degrees e.g. Abraham prophet (pbuh) as he could pass Allah"s tests perfectly and God gave him Imamat degree.

Quran 2:124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Abraham(pbuh) asks God to put Imamat in his bloodline and God accepts how ever only purified persons from his offspring and not evil-doers will get Imamat degree. Shia"s Imams are from Abraham"s (pbuh) offspring and they are purified by God as mentioned in Quran 33:33.

My brother, please be aware of rumors about Shia Muslims and try to do research. Insulting prophet's wives means insulting Muhammad (pbuh). Didn't God send Gabriel to Muhammad to prove that Aisha didnt cheated on Muhammad (pbuh).
Check Quran 24:11
God himself never wants prophet to be ashamed or insulted by people how can Shia Muslims want it?! Although we can prove it that Aisha was cruel to Ali (the true successor of Muhammad (pbuh)) but we are not allowed to insult her.
Didn't you hear Ayatt-Allah Khamenei's Fitva that insulting Aisha is haram (taboo)? Many Shia scholars have prohibited it!
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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8/25/2015 5:37:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:52:02 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:47:54 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Or, they are right and you are talking bullsh1t.

Dude you dont know what we talking about

Yeah, it's easy to see, one Muslim disagreeing on Islam with another Muslim, both of whom are talking bullsh1t.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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8/25/2015 8:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 5:33:44 PM, shalal12 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Brother, Imamat is not a fabricated degree or invented by us. It is a degree which is different from Nubuvvat degree(a degree given to prophets). Some dominant prophets are given Imamat degree and they have both Nubuvvat and Imamat degrees e.g. Abraham prophet (pbuh) as he could pass Allah"s tests perfectly and God gave him Imamat degree.

Quran 2:124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Abraham(pbuh) asks God to put Imamat in his bloodline and God accepts how ever only purified persons from his offspring and not evil-doers will get Imamat degree. Shia"s Imams are from Abraham"s (pbuh) offspring and they are purified by God as mentioned in Quran 33:33.

My brother, please be aware of rumors about Shia Muslims and try to do research. Insulting prophet's wives means insulting Muhammad (pbuh). Didn't God send Gabriel to Muhammad to prove that Aisha didnt cheated on Muhammad (pbuh).
Check Quran 24:11
God himself never wants prophet to be ashamed or insulted by people how can Shia Muslims want it?! Although we can prove it that Aisha was cruel to Ali (the true successor of Muhammad (pbuh)) but we are not allowed to insult her.
Didn't you hear Ayatt-Allah Khamenei's Fitva that insulting Aisha is haram (taboo)? Many Shia scholars have prohibited it!

salam bro... its strange thing that u quote the verse from Baqarah 2:124... u can interpret it to what ever u want to see... what it have to do with the 12 imams..?? u can associate it to any "imam" from Ahbrahim's a.s descendants... and "imam" here means a leader... where in the Quran the "imamet" mentioned? not as a word because u can interpret it to anything. the Quran says as a concept as a belief in the Imamets? no.

but lets leave it for the moment... i say some shias are not muslims (like some sunnis) because:

1. u giving there a Godly feature to some "imams".. isnt? that they are infallible? u know that is Shirk. or possessing all the knowledge of the propehts and stuff, knowing when they will die, knowing the past and nothing is concealed from them
2. cursing and abusing Abu baker r.h funny enough he is mentioned in Surah tubah. or other closest companions like Umar ibn khatb or Uthman. about Aisha i dont know u say its haram but many other scholars dont give a damn on her. she was a "cruel"? the problem is " u believe the 3 first Khalifs are lairs and deceivers right? cursing the wives of the prophet s.a.w and belive they are not from Ahlul bayt?
3. some of u give Ali r.h a high degree even as a prophet/ God himself another kufr.
4. how can u say most of the sahabah became apostates (correct me if im wrong..) after the demise of the prophet? to that extent really?
5.the Quran is not complete...

i dont say all shias are the same but u have many stuff that really dont make a sense/contradictory of the Quran. about ali as a successor why u make such a deal with it, everyone have some things to say who is entitled to be a successor. and u know ali r.h was among them under their leadership of the 3 first Khalifs and he didnt rebel did he? so why u guys make such a noise as we believe to he is one of the best of the companions and the 4 Khalif.

my point here is everyone who disagrees from the Quran is a Kafr, doesnt matter what u think u belong to.
Never fart near dog
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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8/25/2015 9:21:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 8:25:22 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:33:44 PM, shalal12 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Brother, Imamat is not a fabricated degree or invented by us. It is a degree which is different from Nubuvvat degree(a degree given to prophets). Some dominant prophets are given Imamat degree and they have both Nubuvvat and Imamat degrees e.g. Abraham prophet (pbuh) as he could pass Allah"s tests perfectly and God gave him Imamat degree.

Quran 2:124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Abraham(pbuh) asks God to put Imamat in his bloodline and God accepts how ever only purified persons from his offspring and not evil-doers will get Imamat degree. Shia"s Imams are from Abraham"s (pbuh) offspring and they are purified by God as mentioned in Quran 33:33.

My brother, please be aware of rumors about Shia Muslims and try to do research. Insulting prophet's wives means insulting Muhammad (pbuh). Didn't God send Gabriel to Muhammad to prove that Aisha didnt cheated on Muhammad (pbuh).
Check Quran 24:11
God himself never wants prophet to be ashamed or insulted by people how can Shia Muslims want it?! Although we can prove it that Aisha was cruel to Ali (the true successor of Muhammad (pbuh)) but we are not allowed to insult her.
Didn't you hear Ayatt-Allah Khamenei's Fitva that insulting Aisha is haram (taboo)? Many Shia scholars have prohibited it!

salam bro... its strange thing that u quote the verse from Baqarah 2:124... u can interpret it to what ever u want to see... what it have to do with the 12 imams..?? u can associate it to any "imam" from Ahbrahim's a.s descendants... and "imam" here means a leader... where in the Quran the "imamet" mentioned? not as a word because u can interpret it to anything. the Quran says as a concept as a belief in the Imamets? no.

but lets leave it for the moment... i say some shias are not muslims (like some sunnis) because:

1. u giving there a Godly feature to some "imams".. isnt? that they are infallible? u know that is Shirk. or possessing all the knowledge of the propehts and stuff, knowing when they will die, knowing the past and nothing is concealed from them
2. cursing and abusing Abu baker r.h funny enough he is mentioned in Surah tubah. or other closest companions like Umar ibn khatb or Uthman. about Aisha i dont know u say its haram but many other scholars dont give a damn on her. she was a "cruel"? the problem is " u believe the 3 first Khalifs are lairs and deceivers right? cursing the wives of the prophet s.a.w and belive they are not from Ahlul bayt?
3. some of u give Ali r.h a high degree even as a prophet/ God himself another kufr.
4. how can u say most of the sahabah became apostates (correct me if im wrong..) after the demise of the prophet? to that extent really?
5.the Quran is not complete...

i dont say all shias are the same but u have many stuff that really dont make a sense/contradictory of the Quran. about ali as a successor why u make such a deal with it, everyone have some things to say who is entitled to be a successor. and u know ali r.h was among them under their leadership of the 3 first Khalifs and he didnt rebel did he? so why u guys make such a noise as we believe to he is one of the best of the companions and the 4 Khalif.

my point here is everyone who disagrees from the Quran is a Kafr, doesnt matter what u think u belong to.

I kindly ask that you two stop it. This thread is about you trying to convince me to be Shia or Sunni, not each other.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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8/25/2015 9:23:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 9:21:18 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 8:25:22 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:33:44 PM, shalal12 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

Brother, Imamat is not a fabricated degree or invented by us. It is a degree which is different from Nubuvvat degree(a degree given to prophets). Some dominant prophets are given Imamat degree and they have both Nubuvvat and Imamat degrees e.g. Abraham prophet (pbuh) as he could pass Allah"s tests perfectly and God gave him Imamat degree.

Quran 2:124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Abraham(pbuh) asks God to put Imamat in his bloodline and God accepts how ever only purified persons from his offspring and not evil-doers will get Imamat degree. Shia"s Imams are from Abraham"s (pbuh) offspring and they are purified by God as mentioned in Quran 33:33.

My brother, please be aware of rumors about Shia Muslims and try to do research. Insulting prophet's wives means insulting Muhammad (pbuh). Didn't God send Gabriel to Muhammad to prove that Aisha didnt cheated on Muhammad (pbuh).
Check Quran 24:11
God himself never wants prophet to be ashamed or insulted by people how can Shia Muslims want it?! Although we can prove it that Aisha was cruel to Ali (the true successor of Muhammad (pbuh)) but we are not allowed to insult her.
Didn't you hear Ayatt-Allah Khamenei's Fitva that insulting Aisha is haram (taboo)? Many Shia scholars have prohibited it!

salam bro... its strange thing that u quote the verse from Baqarah 2:124... u can interpret it to what ever u want to see... what it have to do with the 12 imams..?? u can associate it to any "imam" from Ahbrahim's a.s descendants... and "imam" here means a leader... where in the Quran the "imamet" mentioned? not as a word because u can interpret it to anything. the Quran says as a concept as a belief in the Imamets? no.

but lets leave it for the moment... i say some shias are not muslims (like some sunnis) because:

1. u giving there a Godly feature to some "imams".. isnt? that they are infallible? u know that is Shirk. or possessing all the knowledge of the propehts and stuff, knowing when they will die, knowing the past and nothing is concealed from them
2. cursing and abusing Abu baker r.h funny enough he is mentioned in Surah tubah. or other closest companions like Umar ibn khatb or Uthman. about Aisha i dont know u say its haram but many other scholars dont give a damn on her. she was a "cruel"? the problem is " u believe the 3 first Khalifs are lairs and deceivers right? cursing the wives of the prophet s.a.w and belive they are not from Ahlul bayt?
3. some of u give Ali r.h a high degree even as a prophet/ God himself another kufr.
4. how can u say most of the sahabah became apostates (correct me if im wrong..) after the demise of the prophet? to that extent really?
5.the Quran is not complete...

i dont say all shias are the same but u have many stuff that really dont make a sense/contradictory of the Quran. about ali as a successor why u make such a deal with it, everyone have some things to say who is entitled to be a successor. and u know ali r.h was among them under their leadership of the 3 first Khalifs and he didnt rebel did he? so why u guys make such a noise as we believe to he is one of the best of the companions and the 4 Khalif.

my point here is everyone who disagrees from the Quran is a Kafr, doesnt matter what u think u belong to.

I kindly ask that you two stop it. This thread is about you trying to convince me to be Shia or Sunni, not each other.

lol so follow only Quran and sunna... try your best good luck
Never fart near dog
Yassine
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8/26/2015 1:20:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

- What do you know so far? & what are your thoughts?
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Yassine
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8/26/2015 1:20:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:15:34 AM, uncung wrote:

Islam is about Quran and Hadith. In the true Islam there is no such sunni and syiah.

- But, there IS.
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Oreo222
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8/26/2015 1:27:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:20:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/25/2015 3:26:47 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

I ask for one Sunni and one Shia to try and convince me to join their sect. I've read both sides of the argument and I'm quite indecisive on this.

- What do you know so far? & what are your thoughts?

I know that Sunnis and Shias split due to the indecision as to who should be the Caliph. Shias have different holidays and traditions than Sunnis. I'm just not certain which side I should commit myself.
Yassine
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8/26/2015 1:31:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:27:31 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

I know that Sunnis and Shias split due to the indecision as to who should be the Caliph. Shias have different holidays and traditions than Sunnis. I'm just not certain which side I should commit myself.

- I meant, what do you know about the two schools?
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Oreo222
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8/26/2015 1:46:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:31:26 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:27:31 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

I know that Sunnis and Shias split due to the indecision as to who should be the Caliph. Shias have different holidays and traditions than Sunnis. I'm just not certain which side I should commit myself.

- I meant, what do you know about the two schools?

Beyond what I mentioned above, not much.
Yassine
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8/26/2015 1:51:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:46:43 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

Beyond what I mentioned above, not much.

- In that case, stick with what you know & learn progressively little by little, don't rush into anything. Both sides of the argument are often quite compelling, especially for someone who ignorant like you. The safest way would of course be the oldest & most supported (Ahl Sunnah).

- If you want, I can give you an introduction into the Sunna/Shi'a schools.
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8/26/2015 1:51:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:51:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:46:43 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

Beyond what I mentioned above, not much.

- In that case, stick with what you know & learn progressively little by little, don't rush into anything. Both sides of the argument are often quite compelling, especially for someone who ignorant like you. The safest way would of course be the oldest & most supported (Ahl Sunnah).

- If you want, I can give you an introduction into the Sunna/Shi'a schools.

I'd like an introduction please. Insha'Allah.
Yassine
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8/26/2015 2:28:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 10:55:56 AM, shalal12 wrote:

I the name of God

Shia Muslims also believe that Islam is Quran+Hadith

- Of course. Though, as I said before, your reliance on Hadith is very loose. You don't have a proper system of authenticity (sanad, 'ilal...etc). So, the legitimacy of the claims based on dubious Hadiths is questionable! I am here talking specifically about Shi'a Imamyah, the Zaydyah are cool when it comes to Hadith.

however, the question rises here, Hadith from who? And who can give us the true interpretations of Quran?
Are we allowed to accept Hadith and sayings of the companions who insulted Muhammad (pbuh), betrayed him and his successor, tried to kill him and killed his daughter who was among prophet's Ahl-al-Bayt (The kin and house hold of prophet).

- Who are you referring to here?

Muhammad (pbuh) says in Thaqalayn Hadith: "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al-Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al-Kawthar on the Day of Judgment)."

- This is a Da'if Hadith! Reported by a shi'i called 'Atiyyah al-'Awfi. The original Hadith reads:
* "I am leaving among you two weighty things: the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it.' He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said, 'The second are the members of my household, I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.".
=> The Prophet (pbuh) was advising his followers to preserve the duties & protect the rights of Ahl al-Bayt, which the Ahl Sunna are very strict about. The Prophet (pbuh) wasn't commanding that Ahl al-Bayt would be put besides the Qur'an & Himself in authority! That's a very bold claim.

- One the other hand, there are clear commands by the Prophet (pbuh) to follow his Sunnah through his companions:
* "I have left two matters with you. As long as you hold to them, you will not go the wrong way. They are the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet".
* "Hold fast to my Sunnah and the examples of the Rightly- Guided Caliphs who will come after me. Adhere to them and hold to it fast. Beware of new things (in Deen) because every Bid'ah is a misguidance".
... etc.

Muhammad (pbuh) himself emphasizes that Quran should be beside Ahl-al Bayt and no one can succeed in Islam without Ahl- al Bayt as Quran and Ahl-al Bayt will never separate from each other until the day of judgment.

- That's a theological claim, a very fundamental one at that. In our schools, ONLY Mutawatur Hadith are accepted in 'Aqeedah (Theology). Da'if Hadiths, such as this one, or even Sahih Hadiths are not acceptable in 'Aqeedah. So, for this Hadith to be of any worth to Ahl Sunnahl, it has to be Mutawatir, which it isn't, not by a loooong shot.

Ahl-al Bayt are the mountain of science, ability and purification and it can be easily proved from Quran and Hadith books from both Shia and Sunni sources.

- We do not deny the worth of Ahl al-Bayt. The merits of Ahl al-Bayt are countless. However, that doesn't justify that they should be put on the same level of authority as Muhammad (pbuh) & the Prophets!

- Also, rest assured, you will not find in our books anything that remotely supports the authority of Ahl al-Bayt. & that's a known fact, by your own scholars as well.

Allah purifies them and asks us to love them and Muhammad (pbuh) trains them and joins them to Quran.

Quran 42:23
That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).

- Love for Ahl al-Bayt doesn't justify prophetic authority!

Quran 33:33
"....Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household [Ahl-al-bayt], and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

- This implies that there IS "sin" to be removed!
- The issue here with Shi'a (specifically Imamyyah) is that they don't consider the Prophet's wives to among his household, which is evidently against the clear meaning of the verse & its linguistic & textual context:

* "O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy. And whoever of you [wives of the Prophet] devoutly obeys Allah and His Messenger and does righteousness - We will give her her reward twice; and We have prepared for her a noble provision. O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech. And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And [O wives of the Prophet] establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things]." (33:32-34).

=> It's literarily impossible to understand the verse as though it's not referring to the Prophet's wives! The whole passage, inside & out, is speaking to & about them.
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Yassine
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8/26/2015 2:29:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 1:44:37 PM, uncung wrote:

But Syiahs are not muslims, period.

- But of course they are. Period.
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8/26/2015 2:54:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 3:01:50 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Islam is about submission and acceptance of God, not an entity called "Islam".

Don't think that because you are a Muslim, you have to identify with either "Sunni" or "Shia". These are political things, and attaching them to the deen, which is about devotion to God, sincerity of faith, and charity is a form of putting partners with God.

- Islam is about Worshiping Allah (swt) by following & obeying the guidance of His Messenger, Muhammad (pbuh). The issue is not whether to follow the Qur'an or the Hadith, all Muslims follow both. The issue is HOW to follow the Qur'an & the Hadith. For this reason, we have difference of opinion about which approach is more appropriate, safer, more reasonable... in dealing with these Scriptures. The approaches that allow us to understand the Scriptures properly & follow them the best we can are what we refer to as Mathahib.

- When you appropriate yourself the authority to decide what the Qur'an or the Hadith commands, you're thereby putting yourself on par with the different schools of thought in trying to figure out what the Scriptures mean. The only difference between yourself & a Mathhab, is that a Mathhad is founded & supported by thousands of jurists of the highest caliber dating back to the Companions (raa), whereas you know near to nothing of Classical Arabic, Qiraat, Tanzeel, Tafsir, Tadlil, Hadith, Mustalah, Rijal, Shuruh, 'Ilal, Fiq'h, Usul... & all the sciences one is required to know before one gets to properly understand the Qur'an & the Hadith.

- So, in order to avoid such an absurd situation, the only safe way is to set aside your own invented understanding of the Scriptures, & follow what the thousands of scholars who actually built the Islamic Tradition are saying about the Scripture. &, please, do not delude yourself in thinking that following a school is the same as attaching partners to Allah (swt)! If that were true, you'd be the first one to commit such an atrocity, for you yourself are following your own self-made mathhad & attaching it to the deen. In most likelihood, your understanding is false. Now, between following your (a layman's) understanding of the Scriptures & following thousands of scholars across Islamic History, any sane person would chose the latter, & so should you. :)

- Why do think IS are such a mess? It's because they think exactly like you. They chose to appropriate themselves the authority to interpret the Qur'an & the Hadith according to their own understanding & whims! & look how that turned out.
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Yassine
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8/26/2015 3:04:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 4:45:20 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:

which means shias r not muslims (not all of them but many..) because they inventing things like the imams dont make mistakes that they r infallible... guess what? its "Shirk" only God is infallible... they can speak sh1t about Sunnis how much they want but when it contradicts the Quran they r out of Islam. and what u except of them? they cursing most of the closest companions of the prophet including Aisha (wife of the prophet) as a prostitute. about abu bakr? his best companion? we find him mentioned in the Quran. they teaching that the companions are traitors which they the ones who preserved the Quran and the Hadith for us. anyway they talking bullsh1t.

- Anyone who claims he is muslim, Sunnah or Shi'a, is muslim, unless he otherwise contradicts himself.

- The issue of 'Ismah (Infallibility) relates on how it is formulated. If 'Ismah was a form of Tawfiq' in which Allah (swt) gives the person the strength to abstain from sin, then that's ok. However, if 'Ismah refers to Prophetic Infallibility, then there is a problem.
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Yassine
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8/26/2015 3:42:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 5:33:44 PM, shalal12 wrote:

Brother, Imamat is not a fabricated degree or invented by us. It is a degree which is different from Nubuvvat degree(a degree given to prophets). Some dominant prophets are given Imamat degree and they have both Nubuvvat and Imamat degrees e.g. Abraham prophet (pbuh) as he could pass Allah"s tests perfectly and God gave him Imamat degree.

- First of all, that's a matter of difference between the Shi'a Imamyyah themselves. Among the Usulia alone, some think the Imam is above Nubuwa, some think the opposite. Some think the Imams are above the Prophets except the 5 Ulu al-'Azm, some think they are below. Some think Imam 'Ali is above all the Prophets (pbuh) expect Muhammad (pbuh), some add other exceptions such as Ibrahim (pbuh), some add all the 5 Uul al-'Azm... add to that the Akhbaria & the Shaykhia, who are even weirder when it comes to these things. Second of all, that's a matter of difference among the different sects of Shi'a as well, the Zaydiyyah have an entirely different concept of Imamah, closer to what we refer to as Muwafaq'a, or Siddiqia, & they too differentiate in the meaning of the concept as well. Third of all, it's not just the concept of Imamah that's problematic amongst Shi'a, it's the very number of these Imams as well, there are the Fivers (Zaydyyah), the Seveners (Isma'ilyah), the Twelvers (Imammyah), & others between 4 to 25 or something. Fourth of all, even the identities of these Imams are a matter of difference between different sects of Shi'a, which separates them into few dozens groups! What's up with that?! Finally, & this is one of the reasons why I can't warm up to the Imamyyah, & the Shi'a in general. There are just too many differences of opinion in things that are supposed to be the fundamentals of faith for these sects!

Quran 2:124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Abraham(pbuh) asks God to put Imamat in his bloodline and God accepts how ever only purified persons from his offspring and not evil-doers will get Imamat degree. Shia"s Imams are from Abraham"s (pbuh) offspring and they are purified by God as mentioned in Quran 33:33.

- All this is very very stretched. As I said before, you can't use the Qur'an or the Hadith (in the Sunni collections) to justify the Imamah. You won't be able to, & that's a known fact. if that was the case we, the Sunnah, would have justified it as well. The only sources from which you can justify the Imamah you speak of are Shi'a sources, specifically Ithna'asharia sources, such as al-Kafi...

My brother, please be aware of rumors about Shia Muslims and try to do research. Insulting prophet's wives means insulting Muhammad (pbuh). Didn't God send Gabriel to Muhammad to prove that Aisha didnt cheated on Muhammad (pbuh).
Check Quran 24:11
God himself never wants prophet to be ashamed or insulted by people how can Shia Muslims want it?! Although we can prove it that Aisha was cruel to Ali (the true successor of Muhammad (pbuh)) but we are not allowed to insult her.
Didn't you hear Ayatt-Allah Khamenei's Fitva that insulting Aisha is haram (taboo)? Many Shia scholars have prohibited it!

- Accusing Aisha (ra) of adultery is done by ignorant Shi'a, the scholars are pretty clear about its prohibition. Some scholars (shi'a) even consider it Kufr. However, that doesn't include Insults in a general sense, including accusing her of Kufr. Some scholars prohibit it, some permit it, & some make it obligatory, following the creed of at-Tawalli wat-Tabarri. I am here also specifically referring to Imamyyah, the Zaydyyah are cool with Aisha (ra).
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Yassine
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8/26/2015 3:50:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:51:46 AM, Oreo222 wrote:

I'd like an introduction please. Insha'Allah.

- Alright. I'll get to it asa I have the time.
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8/26/2015 4:48:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 2:29:14 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/25/2015 1:44:37 PM, uncung wrote:

But Syiahs are not muslims, period.

- But of course they are. Period.
yes Syiahs are muslims but they are kafir.