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Religion on the decline

Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
XLAV
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8/26/2015 3:29:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Theists will fight back by making more babies.

The Muslims are doing a good job so far.
Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 3:34:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:29:03 PM, XLAV wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Theists will fight back by making more babies.

The Muslims are doing a good job so far.

The article makes some interesting predictions.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
TBR
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8/26/2015 3:46:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

I am one of the older members of this site @45. I have also been an atheists for my entire life. When I was young, although acceptable within my peer group, my lack of belief was still not very acceptable outside my group. The general level of acceptance for agnostics/atheists has grown tremendously. This part of the trend is very gratifying.

I have no expectations of atheists growing in huge numbers, but with the growing acceptance the actual number realized. That is, when I was a kid, saying I was an atheists took some work. Work a lot of other kids could not do. I was also in a very protected environment that allowed me to do so. As the environment changes, all those kids get to say exactly what they always want to.
DanneJeRusse
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8/26/2015 4:35:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

"Could anything turn the declining curve of religion around? Yes, unfortunately. A global plague, a world war fought over water or oil, the collapse of the internet and power grid, or some as yet unimagined catastrophe could throw the remaining population into ignorance, misery, and fear, which is the soil in which religion flourishes best. And then we'd have to start rebuilding civilization all over again."
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RoderickSpode
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8/26/2015 5:13:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...
It's really very simple. So simple it's scary.

If Jesus Christ does not exist, then Dennett and LaScola might be on to something. Yes, maybe 400-500 years from now religion will be pass"". If Jesus Christ exists, then any and all efforts to speculate on, or actively participate in the removal of (for the sake of the thread) "religion" is a huge waste of time and energy.

One of the mistakes Dennett and LaScola make is assuming that spiritual-but-not-religious is solely a stepping stone to atheism. That's not an accurate assumption as that particular state also leads many of them into a religion, because many of them are seekers. They seem to assume they are in a passive state, where being spiritual is satisfactory, until they are lulled so to speak into atheism. Maybe they don't understand what those who identify as spiritual-but-not-religious mean, or are just not being clear on what they think it means. What do they (you) think spiritual means? Spirit of 76? "Go team go...that's the spirit"? "Go humanity go....that's the spirit"?

Do you think a spiritual-but-not-religious cannot be a born-again Christian?

Keep in mind, religion has as much of a negative connotation to it for many Christians as anyone else. The negative connotation to religion as noted in the Bible, and viewed by many Christians, is the stifling of the moving of God's Spirit either within a church, or an individual's life by religious rules and regulations. An historic example of this would be Joan of Arc.

And of course there's the usual problem of vagueness in terms of what they mean by religion. To the Communist Chinese who oppressed Christians for years, Christianity was a religion. For the Christian Chinese it was in many cases a miraculous lifestyle relationship with Jesus Christ.

Which brings up another point. They overlook the fact that Christianity is spreading in other parts of the world (aka...the world doesn't revolve around the west). We may look at it as similar to a water filled balloon, where one end is squeezed, water removed from that section, the other end bloats. Or a raging fire, where one section is quenched, and the fire spreads to another section.

And of course, why do they assume that the internet is only spreading the influence of atheism, and not religion?
DanneJeRusse
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8/26/2015 5:23:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 5:13:35 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...
It's really very simple. So simple it's scary.

If Jesus Christ does not exist, then Dennett and LaScola might be on to something. Yes, maybe 400-500 years from now religion will be pass"". If Jesus Christ exists, then any and all efforts to speculate on, or actively participate in the removal of (for the sake of the thread) "religion" is a huge waste of time and energy.

One of the mistakes Dennett and LaScola make is assuming that spiritual-but-not-religious is solely a stepping stone to atheism. That's not an accurate assumption as that particular state also leads many of them into a religion, because many of them are seekers. They seem to assume they are in a passive state, where being spiritual is satisfactory, until they are lulled so to speak into atheism. Maybe they don't understand what those who identify as spiritual-but-not-religious mean, or are just not being clear on what they think it means. What do they (you) think spiritual means? Spirit of 76? "Go team go...that's the spirit"? "Go humanity go....that's the spirit"?

Do you think a spiritual-but-not-religious cannot be a born-again Christian?

Keep in mind, religion has as much of a negative connotation to it for many Christians as anyone else. The negative connotation to religion as noted in the Bible, and viewed by many Christians, is the stifling of the moving of God's Spirit either within a church, or an individual's life by religious rules and regulations. An historic example of this would be Joan of Arc.

And of course there's the usual problem of vagueness in terms of what they mean by religion. To the Communist Chinese who oppressed Christians for years, Christianity was a religion. For the Christian Chinese it was in many cases a miraculous lifestyle relationship with Jesus Christ.

Which brings up another point. They overlook the fact that Christianity is spreading in other parts of the world (aka...the world doesn't revolve around the west). We may look at it as similar to a water filled balloon, where one end is squeezed, water removed from that section, the other end bloats. Or a raging fire, where one section is quenched, and the fire spreads to another section.

And of course, why do they assume that the internet is only spreading the influence of atheism, and not religion?

It's not, the internet is spreading information to the world like never before, and with information comes education, which is the downfall of religious beliefs.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,082
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8/26/2015 5:43:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 5:13:35 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...
It's really very simple. So simple it's scary.

If Jesus Christ does not exist, then Dennett and LaScola might be on to something. Yes, maybe 400-500 years from now religion will be pass"". If Jesus Christ exists, then any and all efforts to speculate on, or actively participate in the removal of (for the sake of the thread) "religion" is a huge waste of time and energy.

One of the mistakes Dennett and LaScola make is assuming that spiritual-but-not-religious is solely a stepping stone to atheism. That's not an accurate assumption as that particular state also leads many of them into a religion, because many of them are seekers. They seem to assume they are in a passive state, where being spiritual is satisfactory, until they are lulled so to speak into atheism. Maybe they don't understand what those who identify as spiritual-but-not-religious mean, or are just not being clear on what they think it means. What do they (you) think spiritual means? Spirit of 76? "Go team go...that's the spirit"? "Go humanity go....that's the spirit"?

Do you think a spiritual-but-not-religious cannot be a born-again Christian?

A born-again Christian is very religious from my experience. The "spiritual but not religious" label does not apply.

Keep in mind, religion has as much of a negative connotation to it for many Christians as anyone else. The negative connotation to religion as noted in the Bible, and viewed by many Christians, is the stifling of the moving of God's Spirit either within a church, or an individual's life by religious rules and regulations. An historic example of this would be Joan of Arc.

And of course there's the usual problem of vagueness in terms of what they mean by religion. To the Communist Chinese who oppressed Christians for years, Christianity was a religion. For the Christian Chinese it was in many cases a miraculous lifestyle relationship with Jesus Christ.

I didn't have any problem understanding the article. Perhaps the vagueness is on your end.

Which brings up another point. They overlook the fact that Christianity is spreading in other parts of the world (aka...the world doesn't revolve around the west). We may look at it as similar to a water filled balloon, where one end is squeezed, water removed from that section, the other end bloats. Or a raging fire, where one section is quenched, and the fire spreads to another section.

And of course, why do they assume that the internet is only spreading the influence of atheism, and not religion?

The internet is an un-judging and ever ready source for answers to questions considered inappropriate by the religious. Shaming/embarrassing the questioner or dodging hard questions is no longer an adequate measure to shut down critical thinking.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
tstor
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8/26/2015 7:32:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 4:35:04 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

"Could anything turn the declining curve of religion around? Yes, unfortunately. A global plague, a world war fought over water or oil, the collapse of the internet and power grid, or some as yet unimagined catastrophe could throw the remaining population into ignorance, misery, and fear, which is the soil in which religion flourishes best. And then we'd have to start rebuilding civilization all over again."
While this may be true in most instances, I can say that the more educated I became, the more inclined towards religion I became. There are countless articles and websites about religions available for anyone who is connected to the internet.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
DanneJeRusse
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8/26/2015 7:38:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 7:32:01 PM, tstor wrote:
At 8/26/2015 4:35:04 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

"Could anything turn the declining curve of religion around? Yes, unfortunately. A global plague, a world war fought over water or oil, the collapse of the internet and power grid, or some as yet unimagined catastrophe could throw the remaining population into ignorance, misery, and fear, which is the soil in which religion flourishes best. And then we'd have to start rebuilding civilization all over again."
While this may be true in most instances, I can say that the more educated I became, the more inclined towards religion I became. There are countless articles and websites about religions available for anyone who is connected to the internet.

LOL. Sorry, I didn't refer to "information and education" as reading more religious websites.

Of course, a key component of education is learning how to think critically, so if you say you're getting more educated, then you probably haven't learned how to think critically, yet.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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8/26/2015 8:00:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 7:38:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. Sorry, I didn't refer to "information and education" as reading more religious websites.
While I was not referring to that, I have to ask you a question. Why do you feel that religious websites do not provide 'information and education'?

Of course, a key component of education is learning how to think critically, so if you say you're getting more educated, then you probably haven't learned how to think critically, yet.
Well, I hope that I never stop learning. I hope that I never become set in my ways. I am sure that you are familiar with the saying "I used to know a lot more".
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
PureX
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8/26/2015 8:18:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think religion is 'going away', at all. But I do thinks it's going to change; away from the mythical, superstition based traditions of the past to a more personal, functional, and spiritual based practice. The authoritarians among us will continue to put up a fight, though, so I think we can expect a good deal more strife before the world's people finally say 'enough is enough!'

None of us will live long enough to see the other side of this sea-change. But it is coming, and I believe it is inevitable. And "amen" to that.
August_Burns_Red
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8/26/2015 9:00:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Everything from history goes in cycles. War, peace, poverty, prosperity, life and death. do to a lot of people who have corrupted Religion and used God's name for their own Evil, religion has suffered in popularity and in credibility for the past 200 years. I get it.

But this doesn't mean that people turning to God on their own is on the Decline. It's not. Many of us stay out of that whole fray and enjoy fulfilling relationships with God. This is NOT cyclical and will only increase, as God continues to show Himself to more and more people. (This HAS been happening. More personal religious experiences.) God too sees the fault of a lot of Organized Religions and so has shown Himself to more individuals than before. Also, Ecumenical churches who get back to the Basic and uncorrupted Word of jesus the Christ are doing just fine. Its the big and corrupt institutions that ares struggling anfd rightfully so. The Catholic Church for example. Many churches are growing! Islam. The LDS. Charismatics. MY Church, Unity.
So what? LOL....the Hebrew Church suffered under the Romans for awhile before Jesus and even a couple centuries after His Ministry. And look what Happened!! LOL. Christianity ended up Dominating its one-time Oppressors! And going global to the tune of two billion Christians.

This will happen again, the dominance of Christians. Your OP article was short-sighted and biased. Meaningless except for folks who take delight in the fact that in SOME places less people attend Church. The article meant Nothing to me but I felt compelled to bring you up to daet on how this whole thing is gonna work out.

God Bless.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,082
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8/26/2015 9:23:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 8:00:31 PM, tstor wrote:
At 8/26/2015 7:38:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. Sorry, I didn't refer to "information and education" as reading more religious websites.
While I was not referring to that, I have to ask you a question. Why do you feel that religious websites do not provide 'information and education'?

Information and education rely on facts and knowledge. Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies.

Of course, a key component of education is learning how to think critically, so if you say you're getting more educated, then you probably haven't learned how to think critically, yet.
Well, I hope that I never stop learning. I hope that I never become set in my ways. I am sure that you are familiar with the saying "I used to know a lot more".

+1
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 9:34:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 8:18:05 PM, PureX wrote:
I don't think religion is 'going away', at all. But I do thinks it's going to change; away from the mythical, superstition based traditions of the past to a more personal, functional, and spiritual based practice. The authoritarians among us will continue to put up a fight, though, so I think we can expect a good deal more strife before the world's people finally say 'enough is enough!'

None of us will live long enough to see the other side of this sea-change. But it is coming, and I believe it is inevitable. And "amen" to that.

Ramen to that. ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
tstor
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8/26/2015 9:35:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:23:22 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

Information and education rely on facts and knowledge. Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies.
Well, I believe that anyone can convey information. Even if it is religious. For example, I am taking a Biblical Greek class at a seminary. It is a rather religious class, does that mean there is no information being passed around in the room? Or if someone takes a class on the New Testament, does that mean no information is conveyed in classroom? Not at all.

As well, education does not rely on 'facts'. Here is the simple definition:
education - the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university

There is plenty of information and knowledge in religion. You may not like the theological aspects, but there is plenty of historical information in religion.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
MadCornishBiker
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8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

What it all means for the future is that the time will come, soon, when only those whop worship Jehovah in the way he wants will be allowed to live on his earth.
Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 9:52:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:00:25 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Everything from history goes in cycles. War, peace, poverty, prosperity, life and death. do to a lot of people who have corrupted Religion and used God's name for their own Evil, religion has suffered in popularity and in credibility for the past 200 years. I get it.

But this doesn't mean that people turning to God on their own is on the Decline. It's not. Many of us stay out of that whole fray and enjoy fulfilling relationships with God. This is NOT cyclical and will only increase, as God continues to show Himself to more and more people. (This HAS been happening. More personal religious experiences.) God too sees the fault of a lot of Organized Religions and so has shown Himself to more individuals than before. Also, Ecumenical churches who get back to the Basic and uncorrupted Word of jesus the Christ are doing just fine. Its the big and corrupt institutions that ares struggling anfd rightfully so. The Catholic Church for example. Many churches are growing! Islam. The LDS. Charismatics. MY Church, Unity.
So what? LOL....the Hebrew Church suffered under the Romans for awhile before Jesus and even a couple centuries after His Ministry. And look what Happened!! LOL. Christianity ended up Dominating its one-time Oppressors! And going global to the tune of two billion Christians.

This will happen again, the dominance of Christians. Your OP article was short-sighted and biased. Meaningless except for folks who take delight in the fact that in SOME places less people attend Church. The article meant Nothing to me but I felt compelled to bring you up to daet on how this whole thing is gonna work out.

The article is based on many studies which verify religion is on the decline. Plus, it is not just religion that is on the decline, but spirituality as well.

"Other scholars have theorized that spirituality has replaced religion (link is external). We instead found that spirituality declined, with 20% fewer college students saying they are above average in spirituality than in the 1990s. In addition, fewer say they pray or meditate. At least among young Americans, the movement away from religion is not toward more spirituality, but toward true secularism."

https://www.psychologytoday.com...

God Bless.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 10:18:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:35:04 PM, tstor wrote:
At 8/26/2015 9:23:22 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

Information and education rely on facts and knowledge. Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies.
Well, I believe that anyone can convey information. Even if it is religious. For example, I am taking a Biblical Greek class at a seminary. It is a rather religious class, does that mean there is no information being passed around in the room? Or if someone takes a class on the New Testament, does that mean no information is conveyed in classroom? Not at all.

As well, education does not rely on 'facts'. Here is the simple definition:
education - the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university

There is plenty of information and knowledge in religion. You may not like the theological aspects, but there is plenty of historical information in religion.

"Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies."

You are not addressing what I wrote. You could claim you have 'knowledge' of Superman's ability to fly, but that is not "knowledge" based on reality. It is the same with God(s). There are no objective facts of god, and everything built around those non-facts is not knowledge - at least not knowledge that relates to reality.

On a side note, what do you hope to do with your seminary degree?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
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8/26/2015 10:49:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:52:14 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
It is not just religion that is on the decline, but spirituality as well.

"Other scholars have theorized that spirituality has replaced religion (link is external). We instead found that spirituality declined, with 20% fewer college students saying they are above average in spirituality than in the 1990s. In addition, fewer say they pray or meditate. At least among young Americans, the movement away from religion is not toward more spirituality, but toward true secularism."

https://www.psychologytoday.com...

That's what I notice outside the US too, Skep. In Australia people seldom talk about religion, and nontheism isn't something to explain or apologise for -- and that's very different from when I was a child when even nontheists had to stipulate which denomination they'd been raised. In Protestant Europe, people now say they're embarrassed to mention faith, simply because it's becoming a curio. And back in Australia, people who say they believe in astrology or homeopathy now also see jokes about auras -- again, that's very different from as little as 30 years ago.

The developed world does seem to be secularising, with more emphasis on self expression and rationalism, and less on traditional and survival-based values. This is reflected too in the World Values Survey, now running since 1981 [http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org...]. This graphic shows the key relationship: [https://upload.wikimedia.org...]

Interesting is to see that while the US is high on self expression, it's very low in the developed world on secularism, with only Ireland lower. So perhaps it's following a secularisation process being led by Protestant Europe and to a lesser extent, Australia and the UK.
tstor
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8/26/2015 11:12:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 10:18:13 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

"Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies."

You are not addressing what I wrote. You could claim you have 'knowledge' of Superman's ability to fly, but that is not "knowledge" based on reality. It is the same with God(s). There are no objective facts of god, and everything built around those non-facts is not knowledge - at least not knowledge that relates to reality.
I am not arguing that God is a fact. I believe that in God myself, but I would not dare try to apply the same 'rules' that are binding on science to my faith. The point is, religions hold very much information and knowledge. Even if something is fake, such as Superman, you can still gain information about Superman. Similarly, you could gain information about various theological aspects of many faiths like I have.

On a side note, what do you hope to do with your seminary degree?
I am seventeen, so I will not get any credit or degree from the class. I am just taking it so I can further my studies of the New Testament.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Skepticalone
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8/26/2015 11:17:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

1-3% is equivalent to the growth of the world's population. Plus, it should be noted that JWs actually had a 15% growth rate in the 70's, and 5% growth rate in the 80's-90's. I think we can see where this trend of attrition is going. Not to mention, JW's have a horrible retention rate of those raised in the religion. 63% raised JW leave the religion, and full 40% of the JWs in North america admitted they would leave the faith if the shunning policies were abolished.

What it all means for the future is that the time will come, soon, when only those whop worship Jehovah in the way he wants will be allowed to live on his earth.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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8/26/2015 11:46:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 8:00:31 PM, tstor wrote:
At 8/26/2015 7:38:02 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. Sorry, I didn't refer to "information and education" as reading more religious websites.
While I was not referring to that, I have to ask you a question. Why do you feel that religious websites do not provide 'information and education'?

What information could a religious website provide other than a copy of the the religions particular holy book, and maybe a few million or so various interpretations. There are no facts or evidence of anything to present.

Other than that, what else?

Of course, a key component of education is learning how to think critically, so if you say you're getting more educated, then you probably haven't learned how to think critically, yet.
Well, I hope that I never stop learning. I hope that I never become set in my ways. I am sure that you are familiar with the saying "I used to know a lot more".
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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8/26/2015 11:50:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

What it all means for the future is that the time will come, soon, when only those whop worship Jehovah in the way he wants will be allowed to live on his earth.

Seems like Jehovah has a lot in common with folks like Stalin, Hitler and Kim John un, they all want you to worship them in the way they want or you won't be allowed to live.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/27/2015 11:10:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 11:50:25 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

What it all means for the future is that the time will come, soon, when only those whop worship Jehovah in the way he wants will be allowed to live on his earth.

Seems like Jehovah has a lot in common with folks like Stalin, Hitler and Kim John un, they all want you to worship them in the way they want or you won't be allowed to live.

With two extremely important differences.

1: Since he created everything he actually owns it, therefore he ahs teh right to do so.

2: His only interest is what will be beneficial for the whole of his creation.

Not just individual humans.

Not even just humans.

The whole of his creation.

Do you think he actually enjoys seeing us destroying everything he loves?
MadCornishBiker
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8/27/2015 11:20:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 11:17:37 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

1-3% is equivalent to the growth of the world's population. Plus, it should be noted that JWs actually had a 15% growth rate in the 70's, and 5% growth rate in the 80's-90's. I think we can see where this trend of attrition is going. Not to mention, JW's have a horrible retention rate of those raised in the religion. 63% raised JW leave the religion, and full 40% of the JWs in North america admitted they would leave the faith if the shunning policies were abolished.

A valid argument but it ignores one major factor.

Jehovah is only waiting until all are safely gathered in who are prepared to gather on before he acts (Revelation 7:1-3).

No doubt there will be a short hiatus before the end, and then the numbers will drop dramatically, as they did in the 1925 period..

As for you last point, I am surprised it was only 42%. It should have been 100%

If those policies were ever dropped it would mean that the JWs were moving away from truly following Christ and the Apostles, therefore they would lose Jehovah's authority. They would no longer be truly Christian.

I am shunned myself, but if they ever said OK we aren't shunning any more, I would ignore them as Apostates.

Their role in life is to obey scripture as closely as humanly possible, as well as seek out and teach those who wish to learn to do the same. That includes disfellowshipping, which does not actually mean what shunning implies, but is close to it.

That last paragraph cannot be stressed firmly enough.
Composer
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8/27/2015 11:46:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 10:18:13 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

"Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies."

You are not addressing what I wrote. You could claim you have 'knowledge' of Superman's ability to fly, but that is not "knowledge" based on reality. It is the same with God(s). There are no objective facts of god, and everything built around those non-facts is not knowledge - at least not knowledge that relates to reality.
I am not arguing that God is a fact. I believe that in God myself, but I would not dare try to apply the same 'rules' that are binding on science to my faith. The point is, religions hold very much information and knowledge. Even if something is fake, such as Superman, you can still gain information about Superman. Similarly, you could gain information about various theological aspects of many faiths like I have.

On a side note, what do you hope to do with your seminary degree?

At 8/26/2015 11:12:59 PM, tstor wrote:
I am seventeen, so I will not get any credit or degree from the class. I am just taking it so I can further my studies of the New Testament.
Griesbach:
"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."

Hug:
"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"

Colwell:
"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons."

Ehrman:
Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.

Next!
MadCornishBiker
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8/27/2015 12:10:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:46:21 AM, Composer wrote:
At 8/26/2015 10:18:13 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

"Religion masquerades its ignorance as knowledge, but the truth of the matter is it has no facts or knowledge of god - only logical fallacies."

You are not addressing what I wrote. You could claim you have 'knowledge' of Superman's ability to fly, but that is not "knowledge" based on reality. It is the same with God(s). There are no objective facts of god, and everything built around those non-facts is not knowledge - at least not knowledge that relates to reality.
I am not arguing that God is a fact. I believe that in God myself, but I would not dare try to apply the same 'rules' that are binding on science to my faith. The point is, religions hold very much information and knowledge. Even if something is fake, such as Superman, you can still gain information about Superman. Similarly, you could gain information about various theological aspects of many faiths like I have.

On a side note, what do you hope to do with your seminary degree?

At 8/26/2015 11:12:59 PM, tstor wrote:
I am seventeen, so I will not get any credit or degree from the class. I am just taking it so I can further my studies of the New Testament.
Griesbach:
"The New Testament abounds in more losses, additions, and interpolations, purposely introduced, than any other book."

Hug:
"the New Testament has had the peculiar fate of suffering more by intentional alterations than the works of profane literature"

Colwell:
"The majority of the variant readings in the New Testament were created for theological or dogmatic reasons."

Ehrman:
Ehrman's recent book on the subject is entitled "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture". Its title speaks for itself.

Next!

Oh dear. I do so hate having to agree with you, but credit where it is due, for once you are right.

Just as well Jehovah protected his word enough for the truth still to be found by those of us who trust in his help and guidance.

He often shows his power by his ability to thwart Satan's plans with just a minor interference.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,082
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8/27/2015 1:16:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:20:41 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 11:17:37 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

1-3% is equivalent to the growth of the world's population. Plus, it should be noted that JWs actually had a 15% growth rate in the 70's, and 5% growth rate in the 80's-90's. I think we can see where this trend of attrition is going. Not to mention, JW's have a horrible retention rate of those raised in the religion. 63% raised JW leave the religion, and full 40% of the JWs in North america admitted they would leave the faith if the shunning policies were abolished.

A valid argument but it ignores one major factor.

Jehovah is only waiting until all are safely gathered in who are prepared to gather on before he acts (Revelation 7:1-3).

No doubt there will be a short hiatus before the end, and then the numbers will drop dramatically, as they did in the 1925 period..

As for you last point, I am surprised it was only 42%. It should have been 100%

It is actually higher than that. I only used the stat referring to shunning of family members not complete abolition of the shunning practice. If I remember correctly, another 10% would bail if shunning were completely abolished.

If those policies were ever dropped it would mean that the JWs were moving away from truly following Christ and the Apostles, therefore they would lose Jehovah's authority. They would no longer be truly Christian.

I am shunned myself, but if they ever said OK we aren't shunning any more, I would ignore them as Apostates.

Their role in life is to obey scripture as closely as humanly possible, as well as seek out and teach those who wish to learn to do the same. That includes disfellowshipping, which does not actually mean what shunning implies, but is close to it.

That last paragraph cannot be stressed firmly enough.

My point: JWs are on a dramatic decline as well.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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8/27/2015 1:28:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:10:28 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 11:50:25 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 8/26/2015 9:40:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/26/2015 3:27:40 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
What does this mean for the future?

http://www.patheos.com...

Not all religions are declining.

JWs for one continue in their usual steady growth of about 3% a year.

What it all means for the future is that the time will come, soon, when only those whop worship Jehovah in the way he wants will be allowed to live on his earth.

Seems like Jehovah has a lot in common with folks like Stalin, Hitler and Kim John un, they all want you to worship them in the way they want or you won't be allowed to live.

With two extremely important differences.

1: Since he created everything he actually owns it, therefore he ahs teh right to do so.

So what? Jehovah's behavior is exactly the same as theirs.

2: His only interest is what will be beneficial for the whole of his creation.

LOL. Behaving like a psychotic mass murderer is good for the whole. LOL.

Not just individual humans.

Not even just humans.

The whole of his creation.

Do you think he actually enjoys seeing us destroying everything he loves?

Of course, that's why he behaves that way. He only loves Himself.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth