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Do animals have the capacity for sin?

JJ50
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8/27/2015 12:57:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Sin is a very silly little word which covers things no decent person would consider wrong like homosexuality, or consenting sexual relations before marriage in a stable adult partnership.

Animals do what comes naturally.
Skepticalone
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8/27/2015 2:46:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Sin: an offense against religious or moral law

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Animals cannot do 'evil'. It is an a-moral landscape for them. If animals have any morality, then it would be something based on what benefits the individual. In social animals, this benefit can include what benefits the collective 'individual'.

No sin is possible when the concept (and the punishment associated with it by religion) is incoherent.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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12_13
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8/27/2015 9:24:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

I have understood that sin is to reject God or live without God. I don"t know do animals reject God, or live without God.
treeless
Posts: 64
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8/28/2015 5:32:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes, as another poster stated, if humans are animals, and animals are incapable of sin, then there can be no capacity for sin.

If sin is an exclusive enterprise for human beings, then that leaves us to wonder, from a theist's point of view, what exactly animals are.

For the sake of convenience, if we were to define sin as "that which is separate from god, or that which god disapproves of", then it is a question of if these sinless animals are closer to godliness than humans ever could be.

And how we easefully slaughter such sinless animals for our pleasure...

Of course, if we were to humor everything in scripture, this would become a nonissue, because humans are somehow not animals and they are made in the image of god, etc. etc.
skinker
Posts: 345
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8/28/2015 6:49:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Yes. Some animals feel guilt. Anyone who's owned a dog will tell you that a dog most certainly can feel guilt, show guilt, act guilty as sin. I'm sure quite a few animals know exactly when they are doing something "bad" and have conflicts about it. And yes, humans are animals so that kinda scotches the whole point.
Yassine
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8/28/2015 7:28:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 2:46:01 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Sin: an offense against religious or moral law

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Animals cannot do 'evil'. It is an a-moral landscape for them. If animals have any morality, then it would be something based on what benefits the individual. In social animals, this benefit can include what benefits the collective 'individual'.

No sin is possible when the concept (and the punishment associated with it by religion) is incoherent.

- Actually, in the Islamic Worldview animals are accountable, thus can be sinners as well, & they shall be judged accordingly in the Hereafter. Although, the idea of sin by an animal is different from that of a person, mainly because of Taklif (Accountability).

- For instance, to seize another's prey is considered a sin, unless it's the norm.
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Dazz
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8/28/2015 7:41:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 7:28:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/27/2015 2:46:01 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Sin: an offense against religious or moral law

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Animals cannot do 'evil'. It is an a-moral landscape for them. If animals have any morality, then it would be something based on what benefits the individual. In social animals, this benefit can include what benefits the collective 'individual'.

No sin is possible when the concept (and the punishment associated with it by religion) is incoherent.

- Actually, in the Islamic Worldview animals are accountable, thus can be sinners as well, & they shall be judged accordingly in the Hereafter. Although, the idea of sin by an animal is different from that of a person, mainly because of Taklif (Accountability).

- For instance, to seize another's prey is considered a sin, unless it's the norm.
Islam require human & Jins to avoid sins not animals, but if you're taking humans as social animals [that makes sense then].
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Yassine
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8/28/2015 7:44:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 7:41:02 AM, Dazz wrote:

Islam require human & Jins to avoid sins not animals, but if you're taking humans as social animals [that makes sense then].

- As I said, not sin in the human sense (ma'siya), but sin in the animal sense, to which I gave an example. & you're right, Jin & Humans share the same Accountability as well.

- Animals would be gathered in the day of judgement, each judged & recompensed accordingly, & then returned to ashes.
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skinker
Posts: 345
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8/28/2015 12:35:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yassine, your ideas as a clone of Muhammad are as asinine as your anti-science belief that evolution doesn't exist. This is a rational debate and your irrational ideas of Muhammad don't fly here, we're in the 21st Century here and not the 7th where you're stuck at along with Muhammad who did your thinking for you--making you pay the price for blind faith put in ancient meglomaniacs without much education.
skinker
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8/28/2015 12:38:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Imagine making a frog be held accountable for being a frog. The whole idea is ludicrous but is part and parcel of primitive Muhammadanism.
Serato
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8/28/2015 1:02:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A wolverine is one of the few if not the only animal that kills for pleasure, rather than for survival. You could say then that wolverines murder their prey, and murder is a sin.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,207
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8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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dhardage
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8/28/2015 2:09:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

That is due to active disapproval from its pack leader, an instinctive response. It has no idea why you disapprove and it has no problem doing it again. It's not 'sin' per se since a dog can clearly see its owner and interact with it. Sin goes deeper than merely reacting to disappointment. Would you call a child scribbling on a wall with crayons a sin?
Otokage
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8/28/2015 2:10:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 11:52:23 AM, treeless wrote:
Do animals have the capacity for sin?

Also, define sin in your answer.

Sin: to be against God in any way.

I don't think animals can sin, since God has never given animals an "animal bible" that would prevent them from commiting sinful acts. This means, to me, that God doesn't care about the moral implications of animal actions (as he's not doing anything to prevent those actions, nor is he informing animals that they are doing wrong). So no, animals can not sin imo. This also raises an interesting topic: why are animals allowed to, ie, homosexuality, but humans are not? Why are animals allowed to kill but humans are not? Etc.
Otokage
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8/28/2015 2:15:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:09:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

That is due to active disapproval from its pack leader, an instinctive response. It has no idea why you disapprove and it has no problem doing it again. It's not 'sin' per se since a dog can clearly see its owner and interact with it. Sin goes deeper than merely reacting to disappointment. Would you call a child scribbling on a wall with crayons a sin?

The cat doesn't get why you don't like him to scratch the furniture. True. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't know either why God punishes, ie, homosexuality, and many other actions. In fact, I hear Christians constantly saying "The ways of the Lord are inscrutable", meaning they do not know why God thinks or does this or that.
dhardage
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8/28/2015 2:19:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:15:01 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:09:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

That is due to active disapproval from its pack leader, an instinctive response. It has no idea why you disapprove and it has no problem doing it again. It's not 'sin' per se since a dog can clearly see its owner and interact with it. Sin goes deeper than merely reacting to disappointment. Would you call a child scribbling on a wall with crayons a sin?

The cat doesn't get why you don't like him to scratch the furniture. True. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't know either why God punishes, ie, homosexuality, and many other actions. In fact, I hear Christians constantly saying "The ways of the Lord are inscrutable", meaning they do not know why God thinks or does this or that.

You are there to let the cat know you disapprove. God has never shown his face to anyone and let them know he disapproved. Your rules actually have some basis in fact. Many religious rules are based on primitive ignorance and would make no actual difference if obeyed or not. (e.g. keeping your meat and cheese on separate plates). There is a difference in deferring to an actual authority figure and obeying the laws of some mysterious, invisible, undetectable being who must speak through other men to make its will known. That would be like one cat telling another that it must meow three times before eating to be sure that you knew it was thanking you for the food. Sin is purely a man made disease created so that someone could sell you the cure for your complete submission to their will. Animals know of no such nonsense.
FaustianJustice
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8/28/2015 2:32:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:09:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

That is due to active disapproval from its pack leader, an instinctive response.

The response, sure, but that doesn't mean the rule was in place, and it knew about it.

It has no idea why you disapprove and it has no problem doing it again.

Sort of like modern day religion, then. Sounds pretty apt, so far. I would be willing to wager why a participant of religion X has no sound reasoning as to why the sins in their faith are sins.

It's not 'sin' per se since a dog can clearly see its owner and interact with it. Sin goes deeper than merely reacting to disappointment. Would you call a child scribbling on a wall with crayons a sin?

True, but it does require an authority, and a rule. The reason for the rule when it comes to religion and animals is just as unknown to the person/animal that is supposed to follow the rule. Now, the interaction with the authority aspect, obviously, I can't argue against.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
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8/28/2015 2:34:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In re-reading this thread, it seems I raised a point already by another user, feel free to disregard my re-wording of the same point.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/28/2015 2:59:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

+1, good example.
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Electric-Eccentric
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8/28/2015 5:43:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
if SIN is simply the DENIAL and REJECTION of a TRUTH/FACT that can be KNOWN by the human or lower animals.

then YES a animal can SIN aka deny or reject what would be the wise and SMART move.

A example for the dim witted could be a family dog that has been with the family for a few years and they all know a bit about each other on their varied levels of reasoning and the understanding that it might bring.

A family dog can LEARN and KNOW what is a "bad dog" experience.

what will the dog in the example most often do when it SINs?

look for a savior or snicker and think "you caught me"?

SIN is simply the denial and rejection of any TRUTH/FACT that can be personally known on a personal individual level of understanding.

even a dog can know and understand that there are rules for a reason that might be beyond them.

then the dog can have their faith or theories as even animals like their make believe and pretend.

peek a boo I see you in the weeds.

I had a very smart dog that in her "teen" years 2 - 4 years old, would sometimes hide in the tall grass where I couldn't see her as she had LOVE on the mind and wanted to try and sneak off to some lovers place down the road.

I would tell her that I could see her and she better come to me.

after a bit, she would come out of her hiding spot.

it is sad that the Truth, evidence and facts seem to show that some dogs are smarter then some humans, and some humans are smarter then some dogs to be fair.

who let the dogs out?
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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8/28/2015 5:51:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 2:32:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:09:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 2:00:05 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/28/2015 1:27:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
Sin: Violations of religious rules.

Can animals sin. No, they lack the cognitive ability to recognize rules and willfully disregard them.

That isn't true. A dog knows when it has done something "bad" (in this example "against the rules"), one need only look at the dog that tucks its tail and wanders around in circles after being "caught" doing something like getting into the garbage. It knows its not supposed to. I had a cat that new darn well it wasn't supposed to scratch the furniture, but it would actively try to find me to make sure I wasn't in the area, then find the scratch-pad de jour, go to town on in for about 2 seconds, then run like hell.

That is due to active disapproval from its pack leader, an instinctive response.

The response, sure, but that doesn't mean the rule was in place, and it knew about it.


It has no idea why you disapprove and it has no problem doing it again.

Sort of like modern day religion, then. Sounds pretty apt, so far. I would be willing to wager why a participant of religion X has no sound reasoning as to why the sins in their faith are sins.

It's not 'sin' per se since a dog can clearly see its owner and interact with it. Sin goes deeper than merely reacting to disappointment. Would you call a child scribbling on a wall with crayons a sin?

True, but it does require an authority, and a rule. The reason for the rule when it comes to religion and animals is just as unknown to the person/animal that is supposed to follow the rule. Now, the interaction with the authority aspect, obviously, I can't argue against.

Sin is specifically a religious violation. Animals cannot grasp the concept of an invisible, supernatural being and therefore cannot 'sin' against it.
Electric-Eccentric
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8/28/2015 8:10:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
if God is Life it's self and ALL else then animals can SIN against Life and what is around them and within them just as humans like to do.

as long as people want someone or something else to take on the responsibility for their unwise choices and what they don't like, we will have those that deny the truth that is before them just like a dog might as they have other ideas on their minds that seem like FUN.
Life is what YOU make it,
Most just try and fake it...