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Another Question for the Religious

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/4/2010 7:36:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What would it take for you to abandon your belief in god, or at least become agnostic?

I was very religious up until HS. After learning more about history and the evolution of religion, it became very obvious to me that Christianity was a giant load of steaming crap. Learning more about philosophy (and logic, especially) helped me reach this conclusion. To me and many others atheism is blatantly obvious, yet theists try vehemently to defend innumerable illogical contradictions and other bizarre and explanations and assertions pertinent to Christianity. Most frustratingly of all, they idolize articulate Christians as if their ability to make stupid things sound better somehow verifies their ridiculous claims lol.

Regardless, considering most rational people (especially scientists and philosophers in particular... i.e. those who probably have the best credibility in terms of making claims about reality) reject the monotheisitic god, then what WOULD it take for you to abandon your faith? The most unfortunate answer of all would be "Nothing could make me change my mind" which would not only be pathetic and intellectually crippling but also really sad :/
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the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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9/4/2010 8:07:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 7:36:12 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What would it take for you to abandon your belief in god, or at least become agnostic?

I was very religious up until HS. After learning more about history and the evolution of religion, it became very obvious to me that Christianity was a giant load of steaming crap. Learning more about philosophy (and logic, especially) helped me reach this conclusion. To me and many others atheism is blatantly obvious, yet theists try vehemently to defend innumerable illogical contradictions and other bizarre and explanations and assertions pertinent to Christianity. Most frustratingly of all, they idolize articulate Christians as if their ability to make stupid things sound better somehow verifies their ridiculous claims lol.
====================================================
Religion and Christianity .... Where did you learn these two went together. or are you just listening to people who don't know any better, and as a result making yourself look silly ?
===================================================


Regardless, considering most rational people (especially scientists and philosophers in particular... i.e. those who probably have the best credibility in terms of making claims about reality) reject the monotheisitic god, then what WOULD it take for you to abandon your faith? The most unfortunate answer of all would be "Nothing could make me change my mind" which would not only be pathetic and intellectually crippling but also really sad :/
===================================================
Your listening to scientists talking about a God ?

Sorry, but that is SAD :/
==================================================
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/4/2010 8:07:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thats what faith is about. Belief in spite of evidence [or contrary evidence].

I would say it would require an argument specifically against faith.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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9/4/2010 8:13:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Dalai Lama said that if any new scientific discovery contradicted an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, we would have to drop the belief, toss it out, and accept the scientific explanation. To do otherwise would be un-Buddhist like.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
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9/4/2010 8:16:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 7:36:12 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What would it take for you to abandon your belief in god, or at least become agnostic?

A lot of things. If it was proved that God has logically incompatible properties. If there was good reason to believe that Jesus never existed or that he wasn't resurrected or wasn't who he claimed to be. If the Jews were wiped from the face of the earth. If the bible was shown to be completely made up. If I never had a religious experience. If theistic arguments weren't defensible. If I had good reason to think naturalism and/or physicalism/materialism were true or correlatively if there good naturalistic explanations of abstract or conceptual objects. If the universe were found out to be eternal. Etc...

I was very religious up until HS. After learning more about history and the evolution of religion, it became very obvious to me that Christianity was a giant load of steaming crap. Learning more about philosophy (and logic, especially) helped me reach this conclusion.

What do you make of people who come to the complete opposite conclusion? Just curious. Because I wasn't religious at all until my last year of higschool/first year of college and yet that turn coincided with me starting to study philosophy more.

To me and many others atheism is blatantly obvious,

Not to me and many more others. ;)

yet theists try vehemently to defend innumerable illogical contradictions and other bizarre and explanations and assertions pertinent to Christianity.

Like?

Most frustratingly of all, they idolize articulate Christians as if their ability to make stupid things sound better somehow verifies their ridiculous claims lol.

Amusingly, I find that same trait (except replace "Christian" with "atheist") frustrating about some atheists. Anyways, I agree having articulate people on "your side" doesn't automatically verify your side. Usually those articulate people are able to make (at least) half-way decent cases for their claims.

Regardless, considering most rational people (especially scientists and philosophers in particular... i.e. those who probably have the best credibility in terms of making claims about reality) reject the monotheisitic god, then what WOULD it take for you to abandon your faith? /

Wait, you're talking about the present, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/4/2010 8:16:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:13:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Dalai Lama said that if any new scientific discovery contradicted an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, we would have to drop the belief, toss it out, and accept the scientific explanation. To do otherwise would be un-Buddhist like.

But in your previous post, it said that "faith" is believing even when confronted with contrary evidence.Why is Buddhism different than other religions who follow this "blind faith" approach?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/4/2010 8:17:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:07:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Thats what faith is about. Belief in spite of evidence [or contrary evidence].

I would say it would require an argument specifically against faith.

Not really.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/4/2010 8:17:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:13:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Dalai Lama said that if any new scientific discovery contradicted an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, we would have to drop the belief, toss it out, and accept the scientific explanation. To do otherwise would be un-Buddhist like.

Btw, Buddhism isn't a revealed religion so it doesn't rise or fall just because one aspect is overturned or refuted. Buddhist philosophy can withstand numerous blows and is almost impenetrable.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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9/4/2010 8:25:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:16:57 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 9/4/2010 8:13:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Dalai Lama said that if any new scientific discovery contradicted an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, we would have to drop the belief, toss it out, and accept the scientific explanation. To do otherwise would be un-Buddhist like.

But in your previous post, it said that "faith" is believing even when confronted with contrary evidence.Why is Buddhism different than other religions who follow this "blind faith" approach?

Because Buddhism isn't faith-based, its anti-faith.

According to the Buddha:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." [Kalama Sutta]
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/4/2010 8:34:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:25:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/4/2010 8:16:57 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 9/4/2010 8:13:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Dalai Lama said that if any new scientific discovery contradicted an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, we would have to drop the belief, toss it out, and accept the scientific explanation. To do otherwise would be un-Buddhist like.

But in your previous post, it said that "faith" is believing even when confronted with contrary evidence.Why is Buddhism different than other religions who follow this "blind faith" approach?

Because Buddhism isn't faith-based, its anti-faith.

According to the Buddha:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." [Kalama Sutta]

I'm hesitant to call Buddhism a religion than. Wouldn't it just be a philosophy that you have tailored to incorporate your previous beliefs while adding new practices? Unless, you don't believe it to be a religion...
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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9/4/2010 8:50:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
About an hour ago my sister asked my father "Isn't religion supposed to be a choice?" to which he replied "No" lmao. Religion is a heuristic that is impossible to break logically when a person believes in it emotionally.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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9/5/2010 1:38:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 7:36:12 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What would it take for you to abandon your belief in god, or at least become agnostic?

I was very religious up until HS. After learning more about history and the evolution of religion, it became very obvious to me that Christianity was a giant load of steaming crap. Learning more about philosophy (and logic, especially) helped me reach this conclusion. To me and many others atheism is blatantly obvious, yet theists try vehemently to defend innumerable illogical contradictions and other bizarre and explanations and assertions pertinent to Christianity. Most frustratingly of all, they idolize articulate Christians as if their ability to make stupid things sound better somehow verifies their ridiculous claims lol.

Regardless, considering most rational people (especially scientists and philosophers in particular... i.e. those who probably have the best credibility in terms of making claims about reality) reject the monotheisitic god, then what WOULD it take for you to abandon your faith? The most unfortunate answer of all would be "Nothing could make me change my mind" which would not only be pathetic and intellectually crippling but also really sad :/

sometimes it isn't about proof or logic, but about life in general. Believing in god makes my life easier and gives me moral support, so i wouldn't not believe in him.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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9/5/2010 1:51:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:07:05 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

Religion and Christianity .... Where did you learn these two went together. or are you just listening to people who don't know any better, and as a result making yourself look silly ?

Religion is a structured system of beliefs centred around the devotion and worship of a God or gods. Christianity by definition is a religion - I have no idea why you thick headed evangelicals can't get your head round it.

Your listening to scientists talking about a God ?

Sorry, but that is SAD :/

If God has measurable effects on the world, or God's existence entails certain predictions about the world, the question of God's existence can be explored scientifically. Since science is by far the best method we have of discovering truth, you should be begging scientists to prove your God for you.
Kinesis
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9/5/2010 1:51:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(

God is angry. ¬¬
InsertNameHere
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9/5/2010 1:54:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:51:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(

God is angry. ¬¬

Possibly. :(

Seriously though. Sh*t really started going down like a few days after.
Kinesis
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9/5/2010 1:55:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:54:24 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:51:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(

God is angry. ¬¬

Possibly. :(

Seriously though. Sh*t really started going down like a few days after.

What happened?
InsertNameHere
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9/5/2010 2:03:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:55:59 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:54:24 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:51:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(

God is angry. ¬¬

Possibly. :(

Seriously though. Sh*t really started going down like a few days after.

What happened?

Well I been getting picked on more than usual, my only financial support has been rejected, my love life is being complicated, etc. There's just too much.
InsertNameHere
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9/5/2010 2:24:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 2:20:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Ah, that's too bad. :/ Hope you can turn it aound/

Yea. I'm like super depressed right now. :/
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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9/5/2010 4:35:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:51:00 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/4/2010 8:07:05 PM, the-good-teacher wrote:

Religion and Christianity .... Where did you learn these two went together. or are you just listening to people who don't know any better, and as a result making yourself look silly ?

Religion is a structured system of beliefs centred around the devotion and worship of a God or gods. Christianity by definition is a religion - I have no idea why you thick headed evangelicals can't get your head round it.

Your listening to scientists talking about a God ?

Sorry, but that is SAD :/

If God has measurable effects on the world, or God's existence entails certain predictions about the world, the question of God's existence can be explored scientifically. Since science is by far the best method we have of discovering truth, you should be begging scientists to prove your God for you.

--------------

Christianity is an organized church, not an organized religion, Religion has no place in the Christian walk (Not by works Eph 2:8-9)

I have no need to turn to man for answers about the mystery of God, nor has anyone else !

How many Satan worshiping Freemasons have tried to rubbish the bible by using scientific lies ?

Darwin (33 degree Freemason)
http://www.globalfreemasonry.com...
http://us2.harunyahya.com...
-------------------------------o O--^5---
Kinesis
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9/5/2010 6:17:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 4:35:46 AM, the-good-teacher wrote:
At 9/5/2010 1:51:00 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Christianity is an organized church, not an organized religion, Religion has no place in the Christian walk (Not by works Eph 2:8-9)

Christianity adheres to the common understanding of 'religion'. Christianity being a religion does not constrain it to a works based belief system - nothing in the definition of religion I provided entails that. I'll ask you directly - do you adhere to a religion given the definition I provided? If not, which part is incorrect?

I have no need to turn to man for answers about the mystery of God, nor has anyone else !

Yet Christianity is based on a human written book, interpreted in a million different ways by humans including yourself, adhering to structures of belief largely shaped by different human cultures including other religions...if you can't turn to humans for answers about God, you have nothing.

How many Satan worshiping Freemasons have tried to rubbish the bible by using scientific lies ?

Darwin (33 degree Freemason)
http://www.globalfreemasonry.com...
http://us2.harunyahya.com...
-------------------------------o O--^5---

I have no interest in delusional conspiracy theories.
Kinesis
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9/5/2010 6:19:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 2:24:00 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2010 2:20:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Ah, that's too bad. :/ Hope you can turn it aound/

Yea. I'm like super depressed right now. :/

Aww...eat some chocolate ice-cream. It's what I do when I'm feeling down. :)
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/5/2010 7:47:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:16:35 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

If it was proved that God has logically incompatible properties.

I dunno if you've been living under a rock these past few hundred years, but it's been done many times over ;) Also, how many times do theists say "logic is unreliable" or other shiz?

If there was good reason to believe that Jesus never existed or that he wasn't resurrected or wasn't who he claimed to be.

Even if Jesus existed, it doesn't mean he's a deity. There's no EVIDENCE that he was. Would you believe something without evidence (a fairy tale) just because people kept the story alive? Also, what evidence is there that he was resurrected? Moreover, you sound incredibly anti-intellectual right now - it's not even funny. You need evidence that he WASN'T resurrected, despite every single law of logic, physics, biology, etc. explaining exactly how and why that is not possible? It should be the other way around! You should be demanding evidence to believe something this absurd lol wow. A gullible lil chap, aren't ya.

If the Jews were wiped from the face of the earth.

Haha.

If the bible was shown to be completely made up.

LOL oh my... I really hope you invest in several history classes. Do you not know how Christianity is basically a bastardization of paganism? That's really sad. Also, you DO realize that the Bible was written by man, yes? And do you have proof that god's real intentions and beliefs were depicted in the book? I can easily say god had a "guiding hand" in helping me write this post but of course that'd be a load of crap.

If theistic arguments weren't defensible.

Just because theists try (and struggle, squirming desperately) to try and defend monotheism (and the concept of the Abrahamic god) doesn't mean they're right. They rely on trivial arguments like, "Oh - have faith" and "Oh - logic doesn't apply to god" and "Oh - the Bible tells me so." Seems like you do too :)

If I had good reason to think naturalism and/or physicalism/materialism were true or correlatively if there good naturalistic explanations of abstract or conceptual objects. If the universe were found out to be eternal. Etc...

I just think it's very backwards that you accept something so extraordinary which stands contrary to nearly all logic and reason without hard evidence. Naturalism posits using the scientific method and other applications to understand reality (knowledge)... but hey, you just sit tight and choose to believe GOD is the source of knowledge lol. Why would you "have faith" in something unprovable, controversial and with little to no evidence in support of it instead of something tangible? It makes no sense to a rational person. What scientific evidence, for example, is there for creationism? And what would you say to someone who said they wouldn't believe in a deity without evidence? It seems to me that you and other theists take any absence of information (in science or technology) to be proof of god...

What do you make of people who come to the complete opposite conclusion? Just curious. Because I wasn't religious at all until my last year of higschool/first year of college and yet that turn coincided with me starting to study philosophy more.

I think that they must have had a life changing event which affected them greatly... and either made them grateful, awe stricken, scared, humble, had them survive a tragedy, etc. In face of this event(s) - whatever it may be - they must have had a feeling to attribute whatever happened (or its effects) to god. As such, they seek desperately to defend the notion of god without fully realizing or understanding the reality of their circumstance - the one that made them suddenly decide to become religious. For instance many times I have thought "Wow, god HAS to exist..." because of what was going on. Then I'd apply rationality and understand what was really going on. Also, the biggest problem I have, per se, is that even if there is a god (which is indeed possible), it is not possible for it to be the Abrahamic god people so vehemently insist it is. THAT concept is non-sensical and I believe has been disproved or proven illogical many times over.

Not to me and many more others [is atheism obvious]. ;)

To be fair, most theists are completely uneducated :) Theism flourishes among the poor and desperate. It makes perfect sense.

Like [what illogical contradictions are there]?

Too many to explain right here right now (or I will later... just don't feel like stating the obvious arguments frequently noted lol like oh, ya know, the paradox of free will, etc.).

Wait, you're talking about the present, right?

Yes, what 2 groups of people would you say have the most authority or credibility in defining reality? Scientists and philosophers would top my list. Most of them definitely deny the existence of god, in much higher numbers than the population at large. That should tell you something. Again have you read any history about how religion is used and why? You might say that doesn't necessarily make religion false, but if you read up on some of the claims, it's just embarrassing.

For instance, one of the primary facets of Christianity is that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. However, the idea that Mary was a virgin at the time of his birth (WHICH RIGHT THERE IS ONE EXAMPLE THAT VIOLATES EVERY SINGLE LAW OF PHYSICS AND BIOLOGY WE HAVE EVER KNOWN, and can in fact be considered a logical impossibility considering in vitro didn't exist at the time :P ) didn't come about until hundreds of years after Jesus' life. That's right. Somewhere along the way people realized that their sense didn't add up, so they said - "I know. In order for us to fix this, we'll say Mary was a virgin. And people will be stupid enough to eat it up." And right they did :)

Of course there is not *one iota* of evidence for this and yet you (and others) choose to believe it anyway. You don't see how that's retarded? That's like me saying I was born of a virign too. And you should believe me. Cuz I said so. And because millions of other people are stupid enough to believe me. It's ridiculous and frankly embarrassing. I have to admit that the way I view one's capacity to rationalize and is tainted if/when I find out they're religious :/ Yes I am biased. Some genuinely see the religious as mentally handicapped in some capacity because they believe in absurdities like someone with a disability. I dunno if I'd go that far, but there's something to be said, I think, for someone who accepts extraordinary claims without hardly any evidence or proof. Meanwhile you have evolutionists for instance offering up stacks after stacks of evidence and yet creationists will sit there like "Hmm... I don't think that's right..." lol. It's actually really funny. Really really funny.
President of DDO
Danielle
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9/5/2010 7:48:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/4/2010 8:50:08 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
Religion is a heuristic that is impossible to break logically when a person believes in it emotionally.

Not true. I was SO religious (I begged to go to Catholic school lol) but then I became an educated adult...
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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9/5/2010 7:49:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/5/2010 1:41:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Maybe it's just coincidence(I may never know), but it seems that shortly after I declared myself deist that's when sh*t began happening to me. :(

It is indeed a coincidence.
President of DDO