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Do you have real faith?

MadCornishBiker
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9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don;t mean do you believe. When the Bible uses the word faith it means something a long way beyond that

Consider Abraham.

He knew, and worshipped, Jehovah for most, if not all of his life, but did he have real faith?

Well, he certainly had enough faith to trust Jehovah and leave his comfortable home in Ur of the Chaldese to become a Nomad.

He trusted Jehovah to protect and guide him as many of the events showed.

So was his faith real?

Not entirely, because when Jehovah promised that Sarah would bear him a child he didn't trust that promise, nor did his wife.

Why do I say that?

Remember that Sarah persuaded Abraham to father a child by Hagar, and he agreed, because both of them thought that Sarah was too old.

Well, wouldn't you, she was almost 100!

We all know what a disaster that proved to be, and how even now we are paying for it, because without it there would be no Muslim Faith, No ISIS.

But Jehovah proved them both wrong and Sarah bore a child.

Did Abraham learn his lesson?

Yes, definitely since he now trusted Jehovah's promises through Isaac to obey and offer him up for sacrifice.

He could not have had any idea how it would turn out, but one thing he did know, without the slightest doubt, Jehovah promises would be fulfilled, and Isaac would, somehow, live, if only by resurrection.

At about 100 years old his faith was finally fully formed!

So if you think you have faith, beware. we all need to keep strengthening our faith.

How?

Be meditating on Jehovah's word, on his great deeds, which so many decry as myth. As David said, we must remind ourself of them daily, hourly if need be.

How may our faith be tested?

Well maybe the hospital will say we, or one our family, need a blood transfusion.

Is your faith strong enough to say no, we rely on Jehovah, just give us one of the alternatives? Many have, and they will get their reward in the resurrection, whether they lost their lives because of their faith or not.

Have we built their faith up enough to do so? The same applies to them. They will not lose out in the long term.

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

What will you do if or when your faith is tested?

If someone threatens to shoot you will you shoot them instead?

Or will you obey the command not to kill and trust in Jehovah?

I like to think my faith will hold up when I am tested, as I am sure I will be. However I still work daily, on strengthening it, and coming on here helps with that.

I was never much of one for studying, but being on here forces me to for the sake of my readers, and as scripture says, "iron sharpens iron". My faith is strengthened and sharpened by the opposition I get on here.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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9/1/2015 4:36:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

And, it is faith that killed her, while the hospital tried to save her life.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
missmedic
Posts: 388
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9/1/2015 7:53:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I don;t mean do you believe. When the Bible uses the word faith it means something a long way beyond that

What is real faith?

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

strong belief or trust in someone or something

belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

a system of religious beliefs
MadCornishBiker
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9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

No, she just had far more faith than you, and was more prepared to obey God and Christ than you.


#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"

Because if they had done their job properly she would not have been driven to it. It is the job of hospitals to treat the whole patient, which means the mind and emotions as well as the body. They ignored her mind and the strength of her conscience. A definite no-no.

Why they would risk saving someone's life but destroying it in the process I don't know, but they did.

I doubt she intended to die, but neither could she face having someone else's blood in her veins, so she did the only thing she could think of to comply with Jehovah's expressed law..

She simply didn't feel she could live with the guilt of disobeying God, but then you wouldn't understand that since you have no intention of obeying him if it gets awkward.

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

However Jehovah will.
annanicole
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9/1/2015 10:59:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

No, she just had far more faith than you, and was more prepared to obey God and Christ than you.


#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"

Because if they had done their job properly she would not have been driven to it. It is the job of hospitals to treat the whole patient, which means the mind and emotions as well as the body. They ignored her mind and the strength of her conscience. A definite no-no.

Why they would risk saving someone's life but destroying it in the process I don't know, but they did.

Apparently "saving someone's life" involved giving her a blood transfusion. So she was getting a blood transfusion, yanked the lines out, and you blame the folks who were "forcing something on her"?

She and her family can blame themselves and the BotchTower.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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9/1/2015 11:00:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 7:53:53 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I don;t mean do you believe. When the Bible uses the word faith it means something a long way beyond that

What is real faith?

Well Hebrews 11:1 describes it as:

Hebrews 11:1
ASV(i) 1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

It comes from knowing Jehovah so well that you are absolutely convinced that he will do what he promises.

In scriptural terms faith is so much more than any dictionary will tell you.

It is the sort of faith that allowed Abraham to prepare his son for sacrifice knowing that for Jehovah's promises to come through, Isaac had to survive somehow, even if he did not know how.

That is so much more than mere belief.

It is the sort of faith that allows a parent to refuse to allow their daughter or son a blood transfusion, because they know that she, or he, will live if only after the resurrection.

That is what real faith is.


http://www.merriam-webster.com...

strong belief or trust in someone or something

belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

a system of religious beliefs
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/1/2015 11:06:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

My opinion on faith is that it is blind in most who think they are the most spiritual. It is a fail safe. When one doesn't quite understand another, they say "faith." You look at your book with doubt sometimes but "faith" kicks in. "that's right i have to have faith" I think this word was the greatest manipulation tactic in religion. It doesn't matter if you hear something that makes you think a reverse bc you have faith.

This is hindering our spiritual growth. We are all spiritual (or not) and it must be respected. If you are about to say i just have faith ... have it in something logical. For instance that we can live on with out a brain ... that takes faith and is (to me) the only leap of logic i feel like i am taking ... for, if we can survive without a brain, there are interesting implications spiritually (not religiously). Religion is one persons (or multiple) view on spirituality. It should have never stopped. We should always be growing spiritually; not stuck in the past ... that is blind faith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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9/1/2015 11:08:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

Well, I don't know why. You have informed us that Jehovah's Witnesses can eat a rare steak and thereby consume blood every weekend til the cows come home - and Jehovah will "overlook" it. Certainly if they eat raw oysters they are doing the same. In fact, that goes for plenty of foods. Have they determined that "blood by mouth" is ok, but "blood by vein" is a no-no?

This is just another example of ridiculous and contradictory BotchTower theories in which they nitpick whole blood versus parts of blood versus fractions with a zest not matched since the Pharisees were defining what constituted "work" on the Sabbath.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/1/2015 11:09:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 10:59:11 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

No, she just had far more faith than you, and was more prepared to obey God and Christ than you.


#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"

Because if they had done their job properly she would not have been driven to it. It is the job of hospitals to treat the whole patient, which means the mind and emotions as well as the body. They ignored her mind and the strength of her conscience. A definite no-no.

Why they would risk saving someone's life but destroying it in the process I don't know, but they did.

Apparently "saving someone's life" involved giving her a blood transfusion. So she was getting a blood transfusion, yanked the lines out, and you blame the folks who were "forcing something on her"?

Yes because they were saving this life but putting the future life at risk.

This is just one of the many things you refuse to understand.

OK if she had stayed unconscious all the time the transfusion was going in Jehovah would not have held it against her.

But the moment she became aware of what was happening she had no choice but to do what she did, and hope someone found her before she died.

The hospital could not care less about how she would have felt afterwards, all they cared about was how they would look, as usual.


She and her family can blame themselves and the BotchTower.

No, they cannot, because they were being obedient to God, as they should have been.

Something else you refuse to understand, Jesus made it very clear that he will only recognise those who are doing his father's will. Matthew 7:21-23. That means abstaining from blood, any blood, any way. There are no qualification, teh simple statement is "Abstain from blood", the bit about animals and idols are separate commands.

But of course that is something else you don't dare acknowledge. Pharisee that you are at present.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/1/2015 11:35:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:08:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

Well, I don't know why. You have informed us that Jehovah's Witnesses can eat a rare steak and thereby consume blood every weekend til the cows come home - and Jehovah will "overlook" it. Certainly if they eat raw oysters they are doing the same. In fact, that goes for plenty of foods. Have they determined that "blood by mouth" is ok, but "blood by vein" is a no-no?

Who said they can eat rare steak?

Did you not know that they carefully wash and drain all the meat they eat at home?

Oh and don't forget 1 Corinthians 10:23-30
ASV(i) 23 All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify. 24 Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbors good. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat, asking no question for conscience sake, 26 for the earth is the Lords, and the fulness thereof. 27 If one of them that believe not biddeth you to a feast, and ye are disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 28 But if any man say unto you, This hath been offered in sacrifice, eat not, for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake: 29 conscience, I say, not thine own, but the others; for why is my liberty judged by another conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

When you have no control over it, then accept that Jehovah understands that. That is why that young girl would have been OK had she been, and remained unconscious. However having awoken and seen it she had no choice but to act, and she did.

Your trouble is you have no concept of the level of understanding Jehovah has.

he knows when someone cannot choose what the eat, and when they can. He knows when people are not complying because they have no choice, or when the are simply trying to avoid dying.

In short, he knows how much faith and trust they have in him.

Or in your case how little faith and trust you have in your fake version of him and his son.

This is just another example of ridiculous and contradictory BotchTower theories in which they nitpick whole blood versus parts of blood versus fractions with a zest not matched since the Pharisees were defining what constituted "work" on the Sabbath.

No it is just another example of how you, like the Pharisees you imitate, don;t understand the difference between living under principle as JWs and I do, and living under rigid law which cannot be adjusted to fit the circumstances.

The Pharisees would have had the woman with a flow of blood who sneaked out of her house in defiance of a law that said she was deserving of death for doing so, but Jesus saw her, understood her circumstances, and made allowances,

Why?

Because as he taught his followers to do Jesus operated principle not law.

That is why you, Pharisee that you are, call it hypocrisy when really it is nothing more than taking circumstances and possibilities into account as Jesus did.

Which is precisely what is behind 1 Corinthians 10:23-30.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/1/2015 11:37:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:06:03 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

My opinion on faith is that it is blind in most who think they are the most spiritual. It is a fail safe. When one doesn't quite understand another, they say "faith." You look at your book with doubt sometimes but "faith" kicks in. "that's right i have to have faith" I think this word was the greatest manipulation tactic in religion. It doesn't matter if you hear something that makes you think a reverse bc you have faith.

This is hindering our spiritual growth. We are all spiritual (or not) and it must be respected. If you are about to say i just have faith ... have it in something logical. For instance that we can live on with out a brain ... that takes faith and is (to me) the only leap of logic i feel like i am taking ... for, if we can survive without a brain, there are interesting implications spiritually (not religiously). Religion is one persons (or multiple) view on spirituality. It should have never stopped. We should always be growing spiritually; not stuck in the past ... that is blind faith.

That may be your opinion but it is not Jehovah's, and his is what I go by.

In his eyes and those of his son, Faith cannot be blind, "blind faith" is nothing more than gullibility, and that is no good to anyone.

In fact true faith requires a lot of insight.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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9/1/2015 11:44:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:09:49 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:59:11 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

No, she just had far more faith than you, and was more prepared to obey God and Christ than you.


#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"

Because if they had done their job properly she would not have been driven to it. It is the job of hospitals to treat the whole patient, which means the mind and emotions as well as the body. They ignored her mind and the strength of her conscience. A definite no-no.

Why they would risk saving someone's life but destroying it in the process I don't know, but they did.

Apparently "saving someone's life" involved giving her a blood transfusion. So she was getting a blood transfusion, yanked the lines out, and you blame the folks who were "forcing something on her"?

Yes because they were saving this life but putting the future life at risk.

So? Their actions are not what killed her. Her own actions apparently did.

OK if she had stayed unconscious all the time the transfusion was going in Jehovah would not have held it against her.

I will admit that she - and many other JW's - would be better off unconscious.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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9/1/2015 11:45:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:35:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:08:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

Well, I don't know why. You have informed us that Jehovah's Witnesses can eat a rare steak and thereby consume blood every weekend til the cows come home - and Jehovah will "overlook" it. Certainly if they eat raw oysters they are doing the same. In fact, that goes for plenty of foods. Have they determined that "blood by mouth" is ok, but "blood by vein" is a no-no?

Who said they can eat rare steak?

You did, when I presented it as an example.

Did you not know that they carefully wash and drain all the meat they eat at home?

That has zilch to do with how they cook it.

When you have no control over it, then accept that Jehovah understands that. That is why that young girl would have been OK had she been, and remained unconscious. However having awoken and seen it she had no choice but to act, and she did.

They have total control over whether they eat meat or not.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/1/2015 11:45:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:37:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:06:03 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

My opinion on faith is that it is blind in most who think they are the most spiritual. It is a fail safe. When one doesn't quite understand another, they say "faith." You look at your book with doubt sometimes but "faith" kicks in. "that's right i have to have faith" I think this word was the greatest manipulation tactic in religion. It doesn't matter if you hear something that makes you think a reverse bc you have faith.

This is hindering our spiritual growth. We are all spiritual (or not) and it must be respected. If you are about to say i just have faith ... have it in something logical. For instance that we can live on with out a brain ... that takes faith and is (to me) the only leap of logic i feel like i am taking ... for, if we can survive without a brain, there are interesting implications spiritually (not religiously). Religion is one persons (or multiple) view on spirituality. It should have never stopped. We should always be growing spiritually; not stuck in the past ... that is blind faith.

That may be your opinion but it is not Jehovah's, and his is what I go by.

In his eyes and those of his son, Faith cannot be blind, "blind faith" is nothing more than gullibility, and that is no good to anyone.

In fact true faith requires a lot of insight.

I would be interested in this insight you speak of. Bc, the way i see it ... i believe in what "god" is doing. It feels like to me i have more trust, bc i accept everyone for what they are. There is no human that is any different to me bc ultimately it comes down to what you believe in regards to an afterlife. Immortality is a long time; how do you imagine it? Is it technically wrong that i may have a different opinion on what i believe to be paradise? how do you account for that? To me, these are the true questions we should be worrying about; self-awareness. To create and live for what we find to be an euphoric afterlife. Isn't this subjective and only true through the eyes of the observer? I think all of this has been answered before; by you. So, i see many truths for we are all right in regards to what we want for paradise.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/2/2015 12:13:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
How may our faith be tested?

Well maybe the hospital will say we, or one our family, need a blood transfusion.

Is your faith strong enough to say no, we rely on Jehovah, just give us one of the alternatives? Many have, and they will get their reward in the resurrection, whether they lost their lives because of their faith or not.

Have we built their faith up enough to do so? The same applies to them. They will not lose out in the long term.

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

What will you do if or when your faith is tested?

When I first started to study the Bible as an atheist, in order to debunk Christianity, my mom had lots of Watchtower literature that over the years the JWs had left her and she never read. I was an avid reader and collected a bunch of it but likewise didn't get around to reading it until I decided to study the Bible. It was a big influence on me, so much so that I started a Bible study with the Presiding Overseer of the local congregation. His former wife had been a JW who needed an organ transplant, but at that time the society, with no real scriptural support, had concluded that organ transplants were, to Jehovah, the same as cannibalism. She got sicker and sicker, but then the society changed their policy. She went on a waiting list, but it was too late. She died.

One day, before I was scheduled for my bi-weekly Bible study I got an Awake magazine with pictures of a dozen or so children who had died due to their refusal of blood transfusions. I took it to my study and asked the Presiding Overseer if he could tell me for sure that these children hadn't died in vain, and with a pained expression on his face, as if he were thinking back to his former wife, he told me that he couldn't say for sure.

Now, I agree with their position on blood transfusions, but I couldn't condone or support an organization which dictated that life or death prohibition. I thought it should be an individual matter of conscience. I ended the study.

I have faith in Jehovah, but not in men.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
missmedic
Posts: 388
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9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?
Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?
Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/2/2015 2:51:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?
Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?
Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Evidence can me misinterpreted, biased, manipulated, destroyed, untenable, faulty, subjective, conjectural, etc.

Faith doesn't negate evidence. If you have faith in the purchasing power of your money, or in the rising of the son, or in the faithfulness of a spouse, that faith needn't be blind. Depending upon what you put your faith in, and your accurate knowledge, understanding, evidence, you may be disappointed.

If you have faith in God's ability to perform a task that is against his will then your faith isn't founded upon knowledge, or if you like, evidence. So blind faith isn't a faith God would require or condone.

Belief without evidence isn't faith, belief without evidence is ignorance and superstition. Those things would only be deemed virtue if it were dishonest and without merit.

Reason has all of the possible imperfections as mentioned above in the case of evidence. It's subjective, imperfect. But any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason should be highly suspect as flawed beyond what measure of faith based upon reason would be worth.

If, in other words, the purchasing power of your money, or your spouse, or the rising of the son should require you to abandon reason for faith it too would become suspect and your faith would crumble. With good reason.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 2:58:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?

It isn't.

Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?

You cannot have real faith without at least a foundation of evidence to build on. Anything else is not faith in the scriptural sense, it is nothing more than gullibility.

Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Good grief no. Scripture is built on reason.

God's creation was created around reason.

Everything Jehovah does has it's reason.

If you find anything in scripture that defies reason then you have misunderstood what you read.

Jehovah is a God of reason and logic. There is no "mystery" in his world, and he wants us to know all we need to know to make our lives what they should be.

Most of all he wants us to draw close to him, and become the sort of people he can call friends, as he did Abraham, whom he called "my friend".

I hope that one day he will say that about me, if he doesn't already. He has certainly proven the best friend I ever had.
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 3:08:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:51:58 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?
Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?
Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Evidence can me misinterpreted, biased, manipulated, destroyed, untenable, faulty, subjective, conjectural, etc.

True, and so frequently is. Even scripture has been messed about by translators with an agenda.


Faith doesn't negate evidence. If you have faith in the purchasing power of your money, or in the rising of the son, or in the faithfulness of a spouse, that faith needn't be blind. Depending upon what you put your faith in, and your accurate knowledge, understanding, evidence, you may be disappointed.

No-one who truly puts their faith in Jehovah has ever been or ever will be disappointed. It is only mankind who let you down.


If you have faith in God's ability to perform a task that is against his will then your faith isn't founded upon knowledge, or if you like, evidence. So blind faith isn't a faith God would require or condone.

Jehovah will never do anything which is against his will or his moral code.

One of his powers is self control.


Belief without evidence isn't faith, belief without evidence is ignorance and superstition. Those things would only be deemed virtue if it were dishonest and without merit.

Agreed, Faith without evidence is not faith in the scriptural sense of the word, it is nothing more than gullibility.


Reason has all of the possible imperfections as mentioned above in the case of evidence. It's subjective, imperfect. But any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason should be highly suspect as flawed beyond what measure of faith based upon reason would be worth.

I would say human reasoning, not reason. Reason is something rarely seen and always immutable.

It is rapidly becoming yet another "endangered species".


If, in other words, the purchasing power of your money, or your spouse, or the rising of the son should require you to abandon reason for faith it too would become suspect and your faith would crumble. With good reason.

Above all things reason and logic must be applied to scripture, especially since it has been so carelessly translated in the past.

For instance, read with your power of reason on Genesis 1 is absolutely accurate in what few details it gives us. It does after all only give us the barest necessary details. What we need to know, not what we may want to know.

If you use reason you won;t fall into the trap that the poor translation of verse 14 sets for you. Many do.
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 3:59:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 12:13:37 AM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What will you do if or when your faith is tested?

When I first started to study the Bible as an atheist, in order to debunk Christianity, my mom had lots of Watchtower literature that over the years the JWs had left her and she never read. I was an avid reader and collected a bunch of it but likewise didn't get around to reading it until I decided to study the Bible. It was a big influence on me, so much so that I started a Bible study with the Presiding Overseer of the local congregation. His former wife had been a JW who needed an organ transplant, but at that time the society, with no real scriptural support, had concluded that organ transplants were, to Jehovah, the same as cannibalism. She got sicker and sicker, but then the society changed their policy. She went on a waiting list, but it was too late. She died.

I understand, they were a little too worried about blood being involved. Really they only moderated their policy when they realised they were OTT with it, though frankly you would have had a real time trying to persuade any hospital or doctor to do the op without using blood back then. They were too ignorance and too myopic.

because they realised they were being a bit Pharisaic, they downgraded it to a matter of conscience.

Despite that change I would still not have considered it, and still would not if I could not be guaranteed the right blood management protocols in place.


One day, before I was scheduled for my bi-weekly Bible study I got an Awake magazine with pictures of a dozen or so children who had died due to their refusal of blood transfusions. I took it to my study and asked the Presiding Overseer if he could tell me for sure that these children hadn't died in vain, and with a pained expression on his face, as if he were thinking back to his former wife, he told me that he couldn't say for sure.

I am sorry, but he was wrong. No-one who dies faithful dies in vain. What was in effect medical malpractice guarantees them a resurrection. When they awake they will be in a much better world.

However you can guarantee that many of them would have survived had the hospitals given them the treatment they needed with one of the alternative fluids.


Now, I agree with their position on blood transfusions, but I couldn't condone or support an organization which dictated that life or death prohibition. I thought it should be an individual matter of conscience. I ended the study.

No, blood is not a matter of conscience, it is an absolute, out and out scriptural prohibition. That stand is rapidly being vindicated also.


I have faith in Jehovah, but not in men.

That is precisely the way to be. You and I appear to have much in common, though a lot of differences also.

That does not mean you should not follow men.

What it does mean is that you should always make very sure that they are leading you in the right direction.

I was brought up in a CoE household, and went to a Baptist Sunday School.

I started my Bible "career" at the age of about 8, reading my Mother's copy of the NEB "New Testament", a pocket edition which was all she had.

It rapidly became clear to me that the whole tenor of the "NT" was absolutely against the Trinity, and that Christ and his father were two completely distinct persons, with Christ being submissive to his father in all things.

That pulled me away from the established churches completely and caused many a row between my father and myself. As a child I had no choice but to go to church on the rare occasions when he felt he should be seen there, but I did so under protest every time and took little or no part in the proceedings.

Eventually, at age 15, I rebelled seriously. father insisted that I accompany them, and rebellious as I was I went. However I decided that I was going to show him up so much he would never insist again. When everyone else knelt, I stood up. When they stood up I sat down. The rest of the time I just sat there. Not a massive rebellion, but enough to spark a really massive row between my Father and I.

That was when he literally threw my adoption at me. I was stunned, and so angry about that, that if I had a knife on me I would have used it, there and then, despite the fact that we were travelling along the road at the time. I wouldn't have cared about the consequences.

I then turned completely against religion and, like you tried to debunk it. I failed.

As a child I had prayed to God, I was not at that time aware of his name, to help me to find those who worshipped him in the way he wanted. I had never even heard of Jehovah's Witnesses.

By the time I did hear of them, all I heard were the usual lies and fright tactics I still come across on here sometimes. So when I eventually met a couple on the doorstep I simply took the Mickey out of them.

By this time I was searching again, testing out various faiths, but there was always something. I knew I was looking for a group, most likely a relatively small one because I hadn't missed Jesus declaration that it would be a minority thing., but they always fell short, but there was no way on this earth I was going to even consider the JWs.

Eventually I was challenged to take a look at their beliefs, in strange circumstances that I have revealed to very few. However I could never refuse a reasonable challenge to I took a tract which set out their beliefs for me, and went home to read it.

It hit my like a sledge hammer. There was precisely what I had been looking for, in the last place I would have wanted it to be, and I had found it under circumstances that raised so many questions and doubts in my mind. I won't go into them here and now, but maybe some place some day.............

In fact it hit me so hard my already fragile mental state flipped completely. For four years I agonised over what I had fund, and how I had found it. However, one Saturday Morning in April 1984, I woke up and it hit me. I knew I had to go to a local Kingdom Hall and get s study to see if I really had found what I thought I'd found. I just knew I had no choice but to do so, there and then.

Yes, I know it was a Saturday, but as it happened my timing was perfect. Which ought to tell you something, lol. I walked into the open Hall, whilst it was being cleaned, walked up to a sister, vacuuming the carpet and said I wasted a bible study. To her credit, she took it well. She stopped the vacuum, walked in the auditorium and came back out with the Elder in charge.

My first study was on the following Wednesday.

My first meeting was the following Thursday.

As it happened, it was the school's Written Review week, but I hadn't been to the meetings prior to it. My study conductor apologised, said he had forgotten it was this week, and I needn't take part. But me being me I figured I had nothing to lose so I took a paper.

Amazingly I got them all right, to the astonishment of my study conductor who had got one wrong, lol. I guess that in itself says something as well. I'll let you decide what.

I was baptised 6 months later.

I can't say my progress in the truth wasn't without it's problems, but I have had some amazing experiences. Most of the best were whilst working in the Welsh Quickbuild Team as a brickie, despite never having laid a brick in my life before. I got given some amazing privileges during that time also. I have had a couple of mind blowing ones on the ministry too.

Unfortunately I am currently disfellowshipped, but I'll be back, I just don't know when. What I do know is that Jehovah will give me a metaphorical kick up the backside if he thinks I am hanging about to long, just like he did in 1984.

I am convinced that we are close to the end now. Very close.
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 4:14:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:45:54 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:37:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:06:03 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

My opinion on faith is that it is blind in most who think they are the most spiritual. It is a fail safe. When one doesn't quite understand another, they say "faith." You look at your book with doubt sometimes but "faith" kicks in. "that's right i have to have faith" I think this word was the greatest manipulation tactic in religion. It doesn't matter if you hear something that makes you think a reverse bc you have faith.

This is hindering our spiritual growth. We are all spiritual (or not) and it must be respected. If you are about to say i just have faith ... have it in something logical. For instance that we can live on with out a brain ... that takes faith and is (to me) the only leap of logic i feel like i am taking ... for, if we can survive without a brain, there are interesting implications spiritually (not religiously). Religion is one persons (or multiple) view on spirituality. It should have never stopped. We should always be growing spiritually; not stuck in the past ... that is blind faith.

That may be your opinion but it is not Jehovah's, and his is what I go by.

In his eyes and those of his son, Faith cannot be blind, "blind faith" is nothing more than gullibility, and that is no good to anyone.

In fact true faith requires a lot of insight.

I would be interested in this insight you speak of. Bc, the way i see it ... i believe in what "god" is doing. It feels like to me i have more trust, bc i accept everyone for what they are. There is no human that is any different to me bc ultimately it comes down to what you believe in regards to an afterlife. Immortality is a long time; how do you imagine it? Is it technically wrong that i may have a different opinion on what i believe to be paradise? how do you account for that? To me, these are the true questions we should be worrying about; self-awareness. To create and live for what we find to be an euphoric afterlife. Isn't this subjective and only true through the eyes of the observer? I think all of this has been answered before; by you. So, i see many truths for we are all right in regards to what we want for paradise.

There is only one truth, there can only be one.

If we perceive anything else to be true we are wrong.

There is only one Paradise, and it will be exactly what Jehovah, the One True God says it will be, and when he says it will be.

There is indeed an afterlife, just not an immediately after life afterlife.

You are right. In Jehovah's eyes there is only one race, the human race. That includes all who have the ability to stand up and call themselves human, in any language they can.
Harikrish
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9/2/2015 4:16:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:58:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?

It isn't.

Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?

You cannot have real faith without at least a foundation of evidence to build on. Anything else is not faith in the scriptural sense, it is nothing more than gullibility.

Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Good grief no. Scripture is built on reason.

God's creation was created around reason.

Everything Jehovah does has it's reason.

If you find anything in scripture that defies reason then you have misunderstood what you read.

Jehovah is a God of reason and logic. There is no "mystery" in his world, and he wants us to know all we need to know to make our lives what they should be.

Most of all he wants us to draw close to him, and become the sort of people he can call friends, as he did Abraham, whom he called "my friend".

I hope that one day he will say that about me, if he doesn't already. He has certainly proven the best friend I ever had.

How is God your friend? He said He would provide. But you live on disability assistance, you are suicidal and need medication to control your depression. You live alone with animals. You spend most of the time alone talking to yourself or on DDO which is your only human contact. You will get more comfort befriending a Ghost than some bumbling genocidal maniac.
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 4:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 11:45:36 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:35:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 11:08:27 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

Well, I don't know why. You have informed us that Jehovah's Witnesses can eat a rare steak and thereby consume blood every weekend til the cows come home - and Jehovah will "overlook" it. Certainly if they eat raw oysters they are doing the same. In fact, that goes for plenty of foods. Have they determined that "blood by mouth" is ok, but "blood by vein" is a no-no?

Who said they can eat rare steak?

You did, when I presented it as an example.

Did you not know that they carefully wash and drain all the meat they eat at home?

That has zilch to do with how they cook it.

When you have no control over it, then accept that Jehovah understands that. That is why that young girl would have been OK had she been, and remained unconscious. However having awoken and seen it she had no choice but to act, and she did.

They have total control over whether they eat meat or not.

That is true, and many don;t, but as Paul said, it is Jehovah's provision there is no reason to turn up our noses at it.

As always you reveal an extremely shallow knowledge of scripture, even to the "New Testament". You have some knowledge, but no insight, but then without holy spirit to give you Jehovah's wisdom as promise (James 1:5-8) you won't, Insight into the scriptures belongs to and comes from Jehovah, not from man. He gives it to whoever chooses to qualify for it.
MadCornishBiker
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9/2/2015 4:23:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 4:16:55 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:58:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?

It isn't.

Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?

You cannot have real faith without at least a foundation of evidence to build on. Anything else is not faith in the scriptural sense, it is nothing more than gullibility.

Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Good grief no. Scripture is built on reason.

God's creation was created around reason.

Everything Jehovah does has it's reason.

If you find anything in scripture that defies reason then you have misunderstood what you read.

Jehovah is a God of reason and logic. There is no "mystery" in his world, and he wants us to know all we need to know to make our lives what they should be.

Most of all he wants us to draw close to him, and become the sort of people he can call friends, as he did Abraham, whom he called "my friend".

I hope that one day he will say that about me, if he doesn't already. He has certainly proven the best friend I ever had.

How is God your friend? He said He would provide. But you live on disability assistance, you are suicidal and need medication to control your depression. You live alone with animals. You spend most of the time alone talking to yourself or on DDO which is your only human contact. You will get more comfort befriending a Ghost than some bumbling genocidal maniac.

Is disability allowance and the pension not one of his provisions?

Why does he allow human Governments to continue to rule until he is ready for his son to take over (Revelation 7:1-3)?

Because they are there to care for us.

The only time Jehovah ever provided food miraculously was in the Wilderness. Since that time he has used people to do so. In this case the Governments (Romans 13). They are ministers for our good, at the moment, and since they fail to provide properly for all humans, they will pay the price for that.

We are encouraged to use the world, just not to the full. We don't milk it for all we can get as some do.

As always, all you show is your complete lack of understanding of Jehovah's word.
ClashnBoom
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9/2/2015 4:27:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 10:53:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:37:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

#1 ... She was a nutcase

No, she just had far more faith than you, and was more prepared to obey God and Christ than you.

Why in the whole dang world do you think that blood transfusions is against the Bible or Jehovah??

#2 ... Exactly how was her death "the fault of those who forced something on her?"

Because if they had done their job properly she would not have been driven to it. It is the job of hospitals to treat the whole patient, which means the mind and emotions as well as the body. They ignored her mind and the strength of her conscience. A definite no-no.

Why they would risk saving someone's life but destroying it in the process I don't know, but they did.

I doubt she intended to die, but neither could she face having someone else's blood in her veins, so she did the only thing she could think of to comply with Jehovah's expressed law..

She simply didn't feel she could live with the guilt of disobeying God, but then you wouldn't understand that since you have no intention of obeying him if it gets awkward.

Had she survived she would have been tormented by extreme extreme guilt for all of her life, but they didn't care about that as long as no-one blamed them.

However Jehovah will.
I will change my sig weekly. Week 4.

Fun fact of the week
Clumsy alien Jar Jar Binks was introduced in The Phantom Menace for comic relief, but he was initially a two-faced mercenary who was to betray Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master played by Liam Neeson.

Joke of the week:
Nerd 1: "Why can't you trust atoms?"
Nerd 2: : "Cause they make everything up!"
Sooner
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9/2/2015 4:31:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:36:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:26:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

One 14 year old sisters faith was so strong that, when she had an accident, and the hospital took out a court order and forced a transfusion on here, the moment she awoke and saw what they has done she simply ripped the tubes out, not caring if she died as long as she died faithful.

In fact she did die, but it was not her fault, or those of her parents, it was the fault of those who forced something on her that her conscience could not live with. She had real faith.

And, it is faith that killed her, while the hospital tried to save her life.

I love your optimism. You are very inspiring.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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9/2/2015 4:51:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 4:23:36 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/2/2015 4:16:55 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:58:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:07:50 AM, missmedic wrote:
How is faith without evidence any different than gullibility?

It isn't.

Why is belief without evidence (i.e.; faith) considered a virtue?

You cannot have real faith without at least a foundation of evidence to build on. Anything else is not faith in the scriptural sense, it is nothing more than gullibility.

Should any religion that demands we elevate faith over reason be trusted?

Good grief no. Scripture is built on reason.

God's creation was created around reason.

Everything Jehovah does has it's reason.

If you find anything in scripture that defies reason then you have misunderstood what you read.

Jehovah is a God of reason and logic. There is no "mystery" in his world, and he wants us to know all we need to know to make our lives what they should be.

Most of all he wants us to draw close to him, and become the sort of people he can call friends, as he did Abraham, whom he called "my friend".

I hope that one day he will say that about me, if he doesn't already. He has certainly proven the best friend I ever had.

How is God your friend? He said He would provide. But you live on disability assistance, you are suicidal and need medication to control your depression. You live alone with animals. You spend most of the time alone talking to yourself or on DDO which is your only human contact. You will get more comfort befriending a Ghost than some bumbling genocidal maniac.

Is disability allowance and the pension not one of his provisions?

Then the government is an institution of God. It helps so many

Why does he allow human Governments to continue to rule until he is ready for his son to take over (Revelation 7:1-3)?

His son fed the people for a day and only 5000 at best count. Governments have been helping people like you for ages. They surely are the institutions of God.

Because they are there to care for us.

Because God nor Jesus can care for anyone. That is why people rely ion their governments.

The only time Jehovah ever provided food miraculously was in the Wilderness. Since that time he has used people to do so. In this case the Governments (Romans 13). They are ministers for our good, at the moment, and since they fail to provide properly for all humans, they will pay the price for that.

The most charitable of all Churches is the Roman Catholic Church....another institution of God. But the JW expects its members to raise money for them which is why it is called a cult. It has everything backwards.

We are encouraged to use the world, just not to the full. We don't milk it for all we can get as some do.

You not only dependent on government assistance, you also tried to raise money through Gofundme.com. You are the biggest handout beggar on DDO.

As always, all you show is your complete lack of understanding of Jehovah's word.
You are so bright you are moving to a third world country when everyone is going the other way.
Sooner
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9/2/2015 4:52:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My faith has been challenged beyond measure many times at this point. It's something that is sometimes only understood at the "breaking point", if you will. I have jokingly told others that I have Post Traumatic Faith Disorder. I have seen too much at this point to not have stronger faith than in my younger adult years. Too many times early on especially, I was at a bottomed out place in life. This forces you to break or look up. I believe God allows you to be put to the test. When you are delivered, it becomes problematic to disbelief. After so many deliveries from insurmountable challenges, it has become a more refined faith. But this still took years and is still progressing forward.
Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away.
DanneJeRusse
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9/2/2015 4:57:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 4:52:34 PM, Sooner wrote:
My faith has been challenged beyond measure many times at this point. It's something that is sometimes only understood at the "breaking point", if you will. I have jokingly told others that I have Post Traumatic Faith Disorder. I have seen too much at this point to not have stronger faith than in my younger adult years. Too many times early on especially, I was at a bottomed out place in life. This forces you to break or look up. I believe God allows you to be put to the test. When you are delivered, it becomes problematic to disbelief. After so many deliveries from insurmountable challenges, it has become a more refined faith. But this still took years and is still progressing forward.

Faith is often challenged with fact. Can we therefore conclude your progression forward in faith is a regression of reality?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth