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Oldest Qu`Ran Predates Muhammed

Yassine
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9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.
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dhardage
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9/2/2015 2:41:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid.
Yassine
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9/2/2015 3:00:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:41:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid.

- On the contrary!
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Geogeer
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9/2/2015 3:38:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

I predict it is only a short period of time before the media links this to the Shroud of Turin for C14 veracity...
Vox_Veritas
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9/2/2015 3:52:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The earliest possible date for this Quran is 568 AD, which is two years before the year traditionally cited to be the year of Muhammad's birth. The latest possible date for this Quran is still earlier than the year(s) traditionally cited to be whenever the earliest Quran was compiled by Muhammad's followers. It is possible, of course, that:
A. There's something off with the dating provided for this Quran.
B. Somebody compiled a written version of Muhammad's teachings before the traditionally cited year(s).
C. Muhammad lived earlier than traditionally believed.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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jodybirdy
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9/2/2015 4:31:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 3:00:24 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:41:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it stupid.

- On the contrary!

I question why God/Allah would dabble in the social and political activities of human beings. No matter how many sacred books have been written by men it doesn't answer that simple question. If anything it discredits the entire concept of a wise and all knowing creator.

With that being said, I have no doubt in my mind that all religious manuscripts dating back thousands of years, including the most recent holy books, are fabrications with an agenda. None inspired by a god, all inspired by human political agendas and fueled by human need.

Why would Allah need or want to see human beings suffer? Why even show himself and cause so many problems? None of it makes sense. Abraham's god has evolved to fit the political needs of society multiple times. Each Abrahamic religion claims to worship the only God and claim their holy books are true (though they are not all the same- someone or everyone is wrong). Those who believe it is God's plan for there to be war, hate, suffering and death in his name, might as well be spitting into the wind. Why would a god have chosen people who kill others for seeking him in a different way? It makes absolutely no sense.

What amazes me about Islam is that the Middle East holds the cradle of civilization. Brilliant mathematicians and scholars throughout the ages have come from the middle east. It is ironic that such great minds fall into religious manipulation and cannot see the political undercurrents and why it exists in first place. Do the math! It doesn't add up.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Fatihah
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9/2/2015 4:53:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

Response: And yet the Professor David Thomas at the University clearly stated on video in a documentary on the finding that the Qur'an discovery is predated no later than 645 A.D. and the person who wrote it is likely to have known the Prophet Muhammad (saw).

So your link actually proved the Qur'an is authentic and unchanged from the time of the Prophet.
DanneJeRusse
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9/2/2015 5:04:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.

Those pages have been carbon dated, if found to be correct, why would that make western scholarship stupider? Or, is it such that your beliefs might be in jeopardy and that is something you simply couldn't bear to stand?

It's funny how facts seem to preclude faith so often. (:
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
SNP1
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9/2/2015 5:09:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:33:29 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

- & I thought western 'scholarship" couldn't get any stupider! Poor me.

So, you have nothing to add except insults for "western" scholarship?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Skepsikyma
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9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dhardage
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9/2/2015 5:19:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Did you not notice that they tested the ink as well?

""If the dates apply to the parchment and the ink, and the dates across the entire range apply, then the Quran " or at least portions of it " predates Mohammed, and moves back the years that an Arabic literary culture is in place well into the 500s."

At least have some valid objections, please?
Yassine
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9/2/2015 5:25:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:09:11 PM, SNP1 wrote:

So, you have nothing to add except insults for "western" scholarship?

- On the contrary!
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Yassine
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9/2/2015 5:27:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:19:41 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Did you not notice that they tested the ink as well?

""If the dates apply to the parchment and the ink, and the dates across the entire range apply, then the Quran " or at least portions of it " predates Mohammed, and moves back the years that an Arabic literary culture is in place well into the 500s."

At least have some valid objections, please?

- I believe you just re-affirmed Skep's contention.
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Skepsikyma
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9/2/2015 5:29:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:19:41 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Did you not notice that they tested the ink as well?

""If the dates apply to the parchment and the ink, and the dates across the entire range apply, then the Quran " or at least portions of it " predates Mohammed, and moves back the years that an Arabic literary culture is in place well into the 500s."

At least have some valid objections, please?

... Except they didn't. Hence the 'if'.

From the original press release:

"Radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment on which the text is written to the period between AD 568 and 645 with 95.4% accuracy. The test was carried out in a laboratory at the University of Oxford. The result places the leaves close to the time of the Prophet Muhammad, who is generally thought to have lived between AD 570 and 632."

http://www.birmingham.ac.uk...

No mention of testing the ink in the entire article.

Try to control your confirmation bias, please.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
DanneJeRusse
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9/2/2015 5:29:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Not a very well thought out post. Read this:

"The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

"Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says."

http://www.bbc.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skepsikyma
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9/2/2015 5:32:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:29:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Not a very well thought out post. Read this:

"The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

"Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says."

http://www.bbc.com...

And your point is? The parchment was dated to a time period in which Muhammad lived. It wasn't dated to a time before his birth or the advent of Islam, which is what the quoted article contends.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
jodybirdy
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9/2/2015 5:34:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Why would they use old parchment to write something of such significance? Allah should have known we would figure out carbon dating at some point. The actual subject matter rates as sensationalism more so than the news story in the OP.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
SNP1
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9/2/2015 5:37:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My main issue with this so far is that Yassine, in his usual manner, went straight to bashing "western" scholarship when the confusion of the matter is ENTIRELY due to the media.
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DanneJeRusse
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9/2/2015 5:38:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:32:05 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 5:29:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/2/2015 5:17:08 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

God this is sh!t journalism. The Qu'ran in question was written on parchment, so the radiocarbon dating tells when the animal which was killed to make the skins to make the parchment lived, not when it was written, as more reputable sources were sure to mention. This is just sensationalism.

Not a very well thought out post. Read this:

"The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

"Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says."

http://www.bbc.com...

And your point is? The parchment was dated to a time period in which Muhammad lived. It wasn't dated to a time before his birth or the advent of Islam, which is what the quoted article contends.

The parchment has been tested to be 95% accurate to have been written somewhere between 568 and 645, and Muhammad started receiving revelations around 610. What's the problem?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Yassine
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9/2/2015 6:42:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:37:28 PM, SNP1 wrote:

My main issue with this so far is that Yassine, in his usual manner, went straight to bashing "western" scholarship when the confusion of the matter is ENTIRELY due to the media.

- What do you mean "usual"?! & unless I am blind the confusion is not "ENTIRELY" related to bad media, it's essentially related to "scholarship". The article is not inventing these views, it's borrowing them from "scholarly" sources, namely historian Tom Holland, & Keith Small of Oxford's Bodleian Library.
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Yassine
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9/2/2015 6:44:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:29:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Not a very well thought out post. Read this:

"The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

"Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says."

http://www.bbc.com...

- I am still trying to figure out where were you trying to go with this?!!
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RuvDraba
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9/2/2015 7:03:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

As the Christians and Jews weren't? :D Nearly all Jesus' miracles were stolen from Zoroastrian prophecy, while Judaic monotheism was also purloined from the Zoroastrians, as Genesis was lifted in part from the Babylonian pagans.

I'm pretty convinced that the principle purpose and benefit of world monotheism is nationalism. That's what made Judaism so successful; it's what galvanised the Arabs to go from being fractious tribesmen to citizens of an expansionist empire; and when the Judaic reforms we call Christianity failed in Judaea, they were transplanted into the Roman empire to eventually become the imperial state faith of people who were never Jews and had no great attachment to Judaea, but now see themselves as all descended from Adam with Jerusalem as their spiritual home.

There's nothing like worshiping a single deity for turning a tribal rabble into nationalistic zealots. It doesn't really matter where the ideas came from. Once you associate nationalistic identity with God, you've consolidated your citizens and mobilised them.

And you can lather, rinse and repeat as many times as you want. So now we have Turks and even Indonesians writing Arabic, and conceiving that they too are children of Mohammed.

And American Evangelicalism has rekindled this idea today. In its militant nationalistic literalist religious bigotry, I think Evangelicalism has absolutely captured the original spirit of monotheism -- for all that to modern eyes (including most mainstream Christians) it looks like a dinosaur in a traffic-jam.

Onward Christian Soldiers, eh?
TBR
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9/2/2015 7:03:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yea, I got to ask why this is an issue at all?

If the time is accurate, and within Muhammad's lifetime, shouldn't this be great? I mean, if it differs from the later iterations, I can understand frustration, but not anger at those that discover it, or research it. If these are authentic, and I cared about the religion at all, I would want to have the source as close to the guy as possible, right?
Yassine
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9/2/2015 7:06:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 7:03:44 PM, TBR wrote:
Yea, I got to ask why this is an issue at all?

If the time is accurate, and within Muhammad's lifetime, shouldn't this be great? I mean, if it differs from the later iterations, I can understand frustration, but not anger at those that discover it, or research it. If these are authentic, and I cared about the religion at all, I would want to have the source as close to the guy as possible, right?

- Indeed.
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POPOO5560
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9/2/2015 7:16:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

http://www.msn.com...

when i began to read and saw "historian Tom Holland" i said "oh that bullsh1t again..." lol fake guy with forged scholarship with his anti Islamic bullsh1t stuff like Jay Smith trying to belittle islam because they jealous of it! what a waste of time
Never fart near dog
Yassine
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9/2/2015 7:17:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 4:31:18 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

I question why God/Allah would dabble in the social and political activities of human beings.

- Not dabble. Creates, designs, decrees, dictates & destines human beings, their activities & all creation.

No matter how many sacred books have been written by men it doesn't answer that simple question.

- Apparently, I just did!

If anything it discredits the entire concept of a wise and all knowing creator.

- How so?

With that being said, I have no doubt in my mind that all religious manuscripts dating back thousands of years, including the most recent holy books, are fabrications with an agenda. None inspired by a god, all inspired by human political agendas and fueled by human need.

- This is a huge claim, which I doubt would persuade any person with enough knowledge about Religion.

Why would Allah need or want to see human beings suffer? Why even show himself and cause so many problems? None of it makes sense.

- It goes like this, Allah (swt) created humans among endless other creatures, created Hell & Heaven, decided that one group will go to Heaven & the other will go to Hell, then send them to Earth, tested them knowing whether they'll fail or succeed, made them fail or succeed, & finally threw them where they were destined to begin with. In the Islamic Worldview, we don't really believe in the concept of Free Will. That is, it all begins & ends with God, absolute predestination. We view the destiny of human beings like the destiny of any other creature. The classical example given by scholars is the example of wood, there is firewood, the purpose of which is to burn, & there is trees, the purpose of which is to flourish. Similarly, some humans are made to burn, & some others are made to flourish. Stars are made to burn & explode, why aren't you concerned about their suffering?!

Abraham's god has evolved to fit the political needs of society multiple times. Each Abrahamic religion claims to worship the only God and claim their holy books are true (though they are not all the same- someone or everyone is wrong). Those who believe it is God's plan for there to be war, hate, suffering and death in his name, might as well be spitting into the wind.

* "To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (5:48)
* "And if Allah had willed, He could have made you [of] one religion, but He causes to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And you will surely be questioned about what you used to do." (16:93)

Why would a god have chosen people who kill others for seeking him in a different way? It makes absolutely no sense.

- Not how we views things:
* "And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason." (10:99-100)

What amazes me about Islam is that the Middle East holds the cradle of civilization. Brilliant mathematicians and scholars throughout the ages have come from the middle east. It is ironic that such great minds fall into religious manipulation and cannot see the political undercurrents and why it exists in first place. Do the math! It doesn't add up.

- I don't quite get your point here. Firstly, these great mathematicians & scholars happened to be religious, & are usually brought to knowledge through the aid of religion as well. Secondly, you're oversimplifying things waaaay too much. Diversity is the most beautiful side of the Human Experience, reducing it to politics is kinda degrading.
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Yassine
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9/2/2015 7:20:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 7:03:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

As the Christians and Jews weren't? :D Nearly all Jesus' miracles were stolen from Zoroastrian prophecy, while Judaic monotheism was also purloined from the Zoroastrians, as Genesis was lifted in part from the Babylonian pagans.

I'm pretty convinced that the principle purpose and benefit of world monotheism is nationalism. That's what made Judaism so successful; it's what galvanised the Arabs to go from being fractious tribesmen to citizens of an expansionist empire; and when the Judaic reforms we call Christianity failed in Judaea, they were transplanted into the Roman empire to eventually become the imperial state faith of people who were never Jews and had no great attachment to Judaea, but now see themselves as all descended from Adam with Jerusalem as their spiritual home.

There's nothing like worshiping a single deity for turning a tribal rabble into nationalistic zealots. It doesn't really matter where the ideas came from. Once you associate nationalistic identity with God, you've consolidated your citizens and mobilised them.

And you can lather, rinse and repeat as many times as you want. So now we have Turks and even Indonesians writing Arabic, and conceiving that they too are children of Mohammed.

And American Evangelicalism has rekindled this idea today. In its militant nationalistic literalist religious bigotry, I think Evangelicalism has absolutely captured the original spirit of monotheism -- for all that to modern eyes (including most mainstream Christians) it looks like a dinosaur in a traffic-jam.

Onward Christian Soldiers, eh?

- Intense feelings there pal, eh?
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dhardage
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9/2/2015 7:22:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 7:03:32 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 9/2/2015 2:24:42 PM, dhardage wrote:
Looks as if Muhammed and his followers might have been plagiarists.

As the Christians and Jews weren't? :D Nearly all Jesus' miracles were stolen from Zoroastrian prophecy, while Judaic monotheism was also purloined from the Zoroastrians, as Genesis was lifted in part from the Babylonian pagans.

I'm pretty convinced that the principle purpose and benefit of world monotheism is nationalism. That's what made Judaism so successful; it's what galvanised the Arabs to go from being fractious tribesmen to citizens of an expansionist empire; and when the Judaic reforms we call Christianity failed in Judaea, they were transplanted into the Roman empire to eventually become the imperial state faith of people who were never Jews and had no great attachment to Judaea, but now see themselves as all descended from Adam with Jerusalem as their spiritual home.

There's nothing like worshiping a single deity for turning a tribal rabble into nationalistic zealots. It doesn't really matter where the ideas came from. Once you associate nationalistic identity with God, you've consolidated your citizens and mobilised them.

And you can lather, rinse and repeat as many times as you want. So now we have Turks and even Indonesians writing Arabic, and conceiving that they too are children of Mohammed.

And American Evangelicalism has rekindled this idea today. In its militant nationalistic literalist religious bigotry, I think Evangelicalism has absolutely captured the original spirit of monotheism -- for all that to modern eyes (including most mainstream Christians) it looks like a dinosaur in a traffic-jam.

Onward Christian Soldiers, eh?

I have no doubt the writers of the Christian holy book were plagiarists. This, in my mind, just puts a little kink in the Muslim holy story. Someone once pointed out how close Jove (Jupiter or Zeus) was to Jehova. Makes one wonder.
Yassine
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9/2/2015 7:33:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 5:34:56 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

Why would they use old parchment to write something of such significance?

- They wrote on rocks, leaves, bones... An old parchment was quite the delicacy. Contrary to what you might imagine, paper was not available, & the muslim community was quite small & poor at the time.

Allah should have known we would figure out carbon dating at some point. The actual subject matter rates as sensationalism more so than the news story in the OP.

- We view things a little differently here. Allah (swt) creates, designs, determines, dominates & predestines Everything.
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