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Why didn't God make a perfect world?

Jovian
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9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?

Answers I expect to come in:

"With fun all the time, it would become boring in the end"

My answer: Yes, but God could had eliminated this concept. He could had made our
brains to loophole it somehow. He is after all almighty, in the religious perspective.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?

"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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9/2/2015 10:42:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?
He did. If your recall, both Adam and Eve were made in His image and perfect beings. They also lived in a perfect garden. However, upon rebellion, they introduced sin into themselves and the world around them. To achieve the perfection that was lost, we have to wait for the return of Christ.

Answers I expect to come in:

"With fun all the time, it would become boring in the end"
That would be a terrible answer.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?
All of God's creations have free will. Take Satan for example, who rebelled against God despite being perfect. It is a signature of God's creation powers to instill free will in all of us.

"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.
False. They were perfect, but still had free will. They were convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit, therefore rebelling against God and setting the pace for the rest of our history. God was not making robots, He was making individuals with free will.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Jovian
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9/2/2015 10:59:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:42:59 PM, tstor wrote:
At 9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?
He did. If your recall, both Adam and Eve were made in His image and perfect beings. They also lived in a perfect garden. However, upon rebellion, they introduced sin into themselves and the world around them.

By the help of the function that God gave them. If God loves humanity, he could had just eliminated Satan and all other things that made this rebellion possible.

To achieve the perfection that was lost, we have to wait for the return of Christ.

That bears witness of a very vengeful God, to me. It was also God that made this possible to happen anyway.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?
All of God's creations have free will. Take Satan for example, who rebelled against God despite being perfect. It is a signature of God's creation powers to instill free will in all of us.

OK but, you didn't really answer my question... It could had been a signature of God's creation powers to make humanity living happily and peaceful for eternity aswell.


"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.
False. They were perfect, but still had free will. They were convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit, therefore rebelling against God and setting the pace for the rest of our history. God was not making robots, He was making individuals with free will.

I ask you like I did before. Wouldn't you prefer to be full of euphoria from the beginning of your life to the end of it? Or would you rather be as it is right now, living in not such a world, to the sole award of being possible of committing evil deeds? (As the free will implies)
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/2/2015 11:02:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's define the word perfect in a Biblical sense and compare that to the secular. When a child is born, to it's parents it is perfect. Now, it can't go to the bathroom, it can't talk, it can't walk, it's fat, hairless and toothless. Good grief, I've just described myself after having too much to drink, and I'm certainly not perfect.

The new born baby is perfect in the sense that it is as perfect as it can be and it has great potential to grow and learn.

When Jehovah God created the angels in heaven they were perfect in that sense, and they had free will. What would it take for them to grow and learn? To follow the guidance under the protection of their creator much like a child would his parents.

That is what the angels did.

Heaven was perfect for the spirit creatures and they resided there for an indeterminate but most likely great period of time by our standards. They matured to the point of knowing without a doubt that if their creator was wise and powerful enough to create them and the "world" they lived in, it would naturally be wise to follow his guidance under his protection.

The Earth and Man were created later, as the angels cried out joyfully. Earth was created for man just as heaven was for the spirit creatures. But it was a new planet, and their portion of it was small, with great potential. Perfect. They were created perfect in the same sense as the angels or a new born child.

Man, Adam, differed in that he rejected God's guidance and protection. The result was imperfection. Adam had more or less said "I can do this my way, without you." And so in all fairness, God saw the most just thing to do was to allow man to attempt this because that is the only way that it could be settled, once and for all. He knew he had to step aside and allow man to give it a go on his own.

With only two stipulations. That God wouldn't allow man to completely destroy themselves and that he would introduce a way out once the issue was settled. That's why he formed a nation of Laws, which taught the people what was going on, and that they needed guidance and protection, and that was still possible, though in an imperfect and temporary sense until mankind realized they were destroying themselves and that was the best they could do without God.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
tstor
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9/2/2015 11:05:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:59:13 PM, Jovian wrote:

He did. If your recall, both Adam and Eve were made in His image and perfect beings. They also lived in a perfect garden. However, upon rebellion, they introduced sin into themselves and the world around them.

By the help of the function that God gave them. If God loves humanity, he could had just eliminated Satan and all other things that made this rebellion possible.
Why do you think that? If a father owns a gun and his kid gets a hold of it and kills himself, does that mean the father did not love his child? Not at all. Satan was an angel who rebelled. Adam and Eve were humans that rebelled. There is nothing more to it, really.

To achieve the perfection that was lost, we have to wait for the return of Christ.

That bears witness of a very vengeful God, to me. It was also God that made this possible to happen anyway.
I guess you really get upset when you sit in waiting rooms. Those vengeful doctors!

All of God's creations have free will. Take Satan for example, who rebelled against God despite being perfect. It is a signature of God's creation powers to instill free will in all of us.

OK but, you didn't really answer my question... It could had been a signature of God's creation powers to make humanity living happily and peaceful for eternity aswell.
What is enjoyable about having your thoughts dictated? Well, we wouldn't know.

False. They were perfect, but still had free will. They were convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit, therefore rebelling against God and setting the pace for the rest of our history. God was not making robots, He was making individuals with free will.

I ask you like I did before. Wouldn't you prefer to be full of euphoria from the beginning of your life to the end of it? Or would you rather be as it is right now, living in not such a world, to the sole award of being possible of committing evil deeds? (As the free will implies)
You could not enjoy anything without free will. Or not genuinely anyways.
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Jovian
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9/3/2015 12:12:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 11:05:13 PM, tstor wrote:
At 9/2/2015 10:59:13 PM, Jovian wrote:

He did. If your recall, both Adam and Eve were made in His image and perfect beings. They also lived in a perfect garden. However, upon rebellion, they introduced sin into themselves and the world around them.

By the help of the function that God gave them. If God loves humanity, he could had just eliminated Satan and all other things that made this rebellion possible.
Why do you think that? If a father owns a gun and his kid gets a hold of it and kills himself, does that mean the father did not love his child? Not at all. Satan was an angel who rebelled. Adam and Eve were humans that rebelled. There is nothing more to it, really.

Apples and oranges. That would mean that the father was clumsy enough to not keeping the gun away from his child. No active gift.

God although didn't give the wrongdoing possibilites to Adam and Eve out of clumsiness. He gave them actively to them. Just to watch them use it wrong.

There is more to it. God could had just eliminated the possibility to rebel.

To achieve the perfection that was lost, we have to wait for the return of Christ.

That bears witness of a very vengeful God, to me. It was also God that made this possible to happen anyway.
I guess you really get upset when you sit in waiting rooms. Those vengeful doctors!

Apples and oranges again. This analogy would only be perfect if doctors would be almighty and able to do their line of patients in a microsecond. Which I'm quite sure God could do if he took on the role as a doctor. If doctors could do this but chose to refrain from it, most people would call this as lack of the compassion that doctors are obliged to have.

All of God's creations have free will. Take Satan for example, who rebelled against God despite being perfect. It is a signature of God's creation powers to instill free will in all of us.

OK but, you didn't really answer my question... It could had been a signature of God's creation powers to make humanity living happily and peaceful for eternity aswell.
What is enjoyable about having your thoughts dictated? Well, we wouldn't know.

Think of it like this. I will draw you an oval of the human's free will: ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] [HERE BE THE NEGATIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). Let's shorten it to ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). No dictation implied.

False. They were perfect, but still had free will. They were convinced by the serpent to eat the fruit, therefore rebelling against God and setting the pace for the rest of our history. God was not making robots, He was making individuals with free will.

I ask you like I did before. Wouldn't you prefer to be full of euphoria from the beginning of your life to the end of it? Or would you rather be as it is right now, living in not such a world, to the sole award of being possible of committing evil deeds? (As the free will implies)
You could not enjoy anything without free will. Or not genuinely anyways.

Then God could had changed his program (our brain, that is) to render it possible. Because this would be possible for a guy creating a wide universe with an almost infite amount of amazing features in it.
tstor
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9/3/2015 12:23:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 12:12:29 AM, Jovian wrote:

Apples and oranges. That would mean that the father was clumsy enough to not keeping the gun away from his child. No active gift.

God although didn't give the wrongdoing possibilites to Adam and Eve out of clumsiness. He gave them actively to them. Just to watch them use it wrong.

There is more to it. God could had just eliminated the possibility to rebel.
Is it clumsy for the father not to lock up his gun if he trusts the child? Though that is a moot point. You rightly state that God was not doing anything unintentionally when He placed in the tool for Adam and Eve to rebel. That does not mean that he had expectations for them to rebel. It was ultimately their choice. It was a test that they failed.

That bears witness of a very vengeful God, to me. It was also God that made this possible to happen anyway.
I guess you really get upset when you sit in waiting rooms. Those vengeful doctors!

Apples and oranges again. This analogy would only be perfect if doctors would be almighty and able to do their line of patients in a microsecond. Which I'm quite sure God could do if he took on the role as a doctor. If doctors could do this but chose to refrain from it, most people would call this as lack of the compassion that doctors are obliged to have.
I will admit that it was not a completely fair comparison, but I still fail to see how you have properly utilized the word 'vengeful'. How is making us wait 'vengeful'? You could maybe argue that it is unfair or cruel, which would be debatable. However, setting an allotted time of waiting is not 'vengeful'.

What is enjoyable about having your thoughts dictated? Well, we wouldn't know.

Think of it like this. I will draw you an oval of the human's free will: ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] [HERE BE THE NEGATIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). Let's shorten it to ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). No dictation implied.
So you are arguing that God should limit what we can do?

You could not enjoy anything without free will. Or not genuinely anyways.

Then God could had changed his program (our brain, that is) to render it possible. Because this would be possible for a guy creating a wide universe with an almost infite amount of amazing features in it.
I am not sure I am following you. How could God make something that is both subject to His exact will and still have the joys of free will?
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Jovian
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9/3/2015 8:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 12:23:51 AM, tstor wrote:
At 9/3/2015 12:12:29 AM, Jovian wrote:

Apples and oranges. That would mean that the father was clumsy enough to not keeping the gun away from his child. No active gift.

God although didn't give the wrongdoing possibilites to Adam and Eve out of clumsiness. He gave them actively to them. Just to watch them use it wrong.

There is more to it. God could had just eliminated the possibility to rebel.
Is it clumsy for the father not to lock up his gun if he trusts the child? Though that is a moot point. You rightly state that God was not doing anything unintentionally when He placed in the tool for Adam and Eve to rebel. That does not mean that he had expectations for them to rebel. It was ultimately their choice. It was a test that they failed.

Yes it is. Children are learning themselves by being curious and push boundariess. There is a reason to why for example dishwasher tablets have the "Keep away from children" warning text on them.

You don't test people you genuinely love like this. What you even more refrain from is punishing your creations with 6000 years of wait for just this little bagatelle, which also God was responsible for to 100%. This more resembles of me when I'm playing The Sims.

That bears witness of a very vengeful God, to me. It was also God that made this possible to happen anyway.
I guess you really get upset when you sit in waiting rooms. Those vengeful doctors!

Apples and oranges again. This analogy would only be perfect if doctors would be almighty and able to do their line of patients in a microsecond. Which I'm quite sure God could do if he took on the role as a doctor. If doctors could do this but chose to refrain from it, most people would call this as lack of the compassion that doctors are obliged to have.
I will admit that it was not a completely fair comparison, but I still fail to see how you have properly utilized the word 'vengeful'. How is making us wait 'vengeful'? You could maybe argue that it is unfair or cruel, which would be debatable. However, setting an allotted time of waiting is not 'vengeful'.

I at least would slit my throats and cry myself to sleep every night if I've found myself to have let my creations painfully wait generation after generation in 6000 years for a perfection that never seems to happen. I would treat my creations as pets.

What is enjoyable about having your thoughts dictated? Well, we wouldn't know.

Think of it like this. I will draw you an oval of the human's free will: ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] [HERE BE THE NEGATIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). Let's shorten it to ( [HERE BE THE POSITIVE STUFF HE CAN DO] ). No dictation implied.
So you are arguing that God should limit what we can do?

What is so wonderful about being humans being able to do evil things? Loads and loads of suffering could had been spared, and these sufferers(?) would probably want this world I'm talking about aswell.

Furthermore, I'm quite sure we according to a theist view already are limited. Couldn't God had made our will and possibilites even more free?

You could not enjoy anything without free will. Or not genuinely anyways.

Then God could had changed his program (our brain, that is) to render it possible. Because this would be possible for a guy creating a wide universe with an almost infite amount of amazing features in it.
I am not sure I am following you. How could God make something that is both subject to His exact will and still have the joys of free will?

Not following you either. What do you mean with his exact will?
Jovian
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9/3/2015 8:52:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 11:02:36 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
Man, Adam, differed in that he rejected God's guidance and protection. The result was imperfection. Adam had more or less said "I can do this my way, without you." And so in all fairness, God saw the most just thing to do was to allow man to attempt this because that is the only way that it could be settled, once and for all. He knew he had to step aside and allow man to give it a go on his own.

Sorry but it was God who rendered this rebellion possible. Just the same way you blame the programmer for a fault in his program, and not his program itself.
tstor
Posts: 1,467
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9/3/2015 9:03:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 8:49:57 PM, Jovian wrote:

Is it clumsy for the father not to lock up his gun if he trusts the child? Though that is a moot point. You rightly state that God was not doing anything unintentionally when He placed in the tool for Adam and Eve to rebel. That does not mean that he had expectations for them to rebel. It was ultimately their choice. It was a test that they failed.

Yes it is. Children are learning themselves by being curious and push boundariess. There is a reason to why for example dishwasher tablets have the "Keep away from children" warning text on them.
I was speaking more of a teenager than an infant.

You don't test people you genuinely love like this. What you even more refrain from is punishing your creations with 6000 years of wait for just this little bagatelle, which also God was responsible for to 100%. This more resembles of me when I'm playing The Sims.
How is God 100% responsible for the actions of us? As for testing loved ones, we do it all the time. We punish children who act out, we punish criminals who commit crimes, etc.

I will admit that it was not a completely fair comparison, but I still fail to see how you have properly utilized the word 'vengeful'. How is making us wait 'vengeful'? You could maybe argue that it is unfair or cruel, which would be debatable. However, setting an allotted time of waiting is not 'vengeful'.

I at least would slit my throats and cry myself to sleep every night if I've found myself to have let my creations painfully wait generation after generation in 6000 years for a perfection that never seems to happen. I would treat my creations as pets.
Slit your non-existent throat, cry tears with no nasolacrimal duct, and sleep despite not being able to? Where are you pulling the number 6,000 from? You keep using it without ever stating where you are getting it from. As well, you are simplifying a topic like this. Believe it or not, to understand the waiting period better, you actually have to read the Bible.

So you are arguing that God should limit what we can do?

What is so wonderful about being humans being able to do evil things? Loads and loads of suffering could had been spared, and these sufferers(?) would probably want this world I'm talking about aswell.
What is wonderful is that we have choice. We can do whatever we want. We can murder, steal, lie, etc. However, we will have to face the consequences for the actions that we commit. Removing some elements will ultimately take away from free will.

Furthermore, I'm quite sure we according to a theist view already are limited. Couldn't God had made our will and possibilites even more free?
In what ways?

Then God could had changed his program (our brain, that is) to render it possible. Because this would be possible for a guy creating a wide universe with an almost infite amount of amazing features in it.
I am not sure I am following you. How could God make something that is both subject to His exact will and still have the joys of free will?

Not following you either. What do you mean with his exact will?
You said:
" Then God could had changed his program (our brain, that is) to render it possible."

'it' referring to the idea that we can lose free will, but still enjoy the luxury of it. So we would be subject to God's will, like a robot is subject to our will. Does that sound very fun?
"The afternoon came down as imperceptibly as age comes to a happy man. A little gold entered into the sunlight. The bay became bluer and dimpled with shore-wind ripples. Those lonely fishermen who believe that the fish bite at high tide left their rocks, and their places were taken by others, who were convinced that the fish bite at low tide." (John Steinbeck; Tortilla Flat, 1935)
Harikrish
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9/3/2015 9:05:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God was obviously not smart enough to make a perfect world. The best He could do was to create us in His image.
God's biggest mistake was actually creating the tree of knowledge with the knowledge of both good and evil. If He created the tree with only the knowledge of good. Adam would have ended up more perfect than God because God still had the knowledge of evil in Him.
Adams descendants would all have inherited only the knowledge of good. And Satan would have been rewarded for tempting Eve because only good came from his actions.
Vedantists focus only on the knowledge of good and pure living. We leave other religions to deal with evil. That is what keeps Vedantists enlightened and the other religions drowning in guilt.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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9/3/2015 9:16:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?

Answers I expect to come in:

"With fun all the time, it would become boring in the end"

My answer: Yes, but God could had eliminated this concept. He could had made our
brains to loophole it somehow. He is after all almighty, in the religious perspective.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?

"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.

freedom of will is a two edged sword...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.
graceofgod
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9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??
DanneJeRusse
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9/3/2015 9:29:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

But, isn't that what Christianity, or Islam or any other religion is all about, programming humans to be robots? The software is the Bible, or the Quran, which must be followed to the letter. That's programming, isn't it?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
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9/3/2015 9:32:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:29:38 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

But, isn't that what Christianity, or Islam or any other religion is all about, programming humans to be robots? The software is the Bible, or the Quran, which must be followed to the letter. That's programming, isn't it?

hang on you blame God for not taking control of people and letting them hurt each other and now you are claiming God makes robots, you really need to get your arguments together..lol
dhardage
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9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/3/2015 9:39:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...

A masterpiece that falls apart and has numerous flaws that make life difficult and incredibly painful for many of us. It's marvelous but not designed. NO decent designer would have made so many basic mistakes.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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9/3/2015 9:44:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:39:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...

A masterpiece that falls apart and has numerous flaws that make life difficult and incredibly painful for many of us. It's marvelous but not designed. NO decent designer would have made so many basic mistakes.

are you kidding me the human body is so amazing and complex...

have you ever seen a design that never breaks down or malfunctions...?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/3/2015 9:47:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?

Answers I expect to come in:

"With fun all the time, it would become boring in the end"

My answer: Yes, but God could had eliminated this concept. He could had made our
brains to loophole it somehow. He is after all almighty, in the religious perspective.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?

"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.

Have you ever thought this world is perfect already? Anything different wouldn't be a human experience would it? Here's an example: When i was a child i feared death, i feared the unknown. Some nights i would wake up and become afraid. I would go sleep next to my mom and dad's bed. As i look back on this experience today, i smile, my heart fills with more love toward my parents. Would i have this experiences if i lived in any other type of reality? Maybe. But, that reality must also have two things similar to ours for this experience; fear of death and the unknown. How do you experience these things without having the experience. You may just think it up ... but, that is also an experience within itself. There is no loophole. To be perfect you must fall and learn to get back up.
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/3/2015 11:30:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 8:52:45 PM, Jovian wrote:
Sorry but it was God who rendered this rebellion possible. Just the same way you blame the programmer for a fault in his program, and not his program itself.

Firstly, how did God render the rebellion possible, and secondly, you are thinking of someone else who made the programmer analogy, it wasn't me.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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9/3/2015 11:57:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 10:20:47 PM, Jovian wrote:
Why didn't God create humans as totally perfect beings who are happy all the time and extremely nice towards each other all the time, living in peace for ever and ever? Whereas God can create a universe spanning 13.8 billion light years, with infinite amounts of awesome features in it, he must had been able to do this to mankind, given that he loves mankind?

Answers I expect to come in:

"With fun all the time, it would become boring in the end"

My answer: Yes, but God could had eliminated this concept. He could had made our
brains to loophole it somehow. He is after all almighty, in the religious perspective.

"Free will"

My answer: What would you prefer? A world with continous merriment and mirth, just a little restricted will, or this world, with totally free will?

"They were perfect from the beginning, but Adam and Eve ate the apple"

My answer: That shouldn't had happened if they were perfect and God is free from any fault. But, God could had just learned from his mistake and created Adam and Eve again and this time not making them easy to fool.

Well, I can answer your question and I wont use any of those stock answers you provided.

God DID create a perfect world. Not even just a perfect World but a perfect Universe. Have you ever read about how if any of those initial conditions at the Big Bang were off by even like a 0.00001% that we wouldnt be here? That the Universe woulda imploded before it even got going, or expanded too fast for life to begin.
Same deal with Earth. perfect warm and cozy conditions for us to begin in Darwins nice warm, perfect little pond. (yep: I'm a Christian Evolutionist, a rare bird I know! LOL)
And science still can't explain how life came from nothing. They never will. Not until they accept God.
So all conditions were perfect and we evolved. And we were --are!--enpowed with EVERY ability and chance to be perfect!! To be kind and loving! We could right now have what you described in your OP. God provided all. But we so far for the most part have blown it. So don't blame God. It's like a loving Father giving his Son a perfect model airplane to build and the son botches it and gets angry and breaks it. Whose fault is it! LOL. Right.

We still have the means to fix the torn world and make things better. And the good part is that God will help us do this. He already HAS helped Millions of people do it. All you need to do is show some humility and pray to Him and ask for Guidance. It will come.

I'm not a believer in the literal Genesis Creation story, so I've never been a original Sin guy. Or a believer of The Fall. Well, only if you could call the Fall from Gen. a metaphor for how we Fell when our Greed and Arrogance distanced us from God.

God Bless. Hope this Helps.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/4/2015 1:00:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:44:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:39:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...

A masterpiece that falls apart and has numerous flaws that make life difficult and incredibly painful for many of us. It's marvelous but not designed. NO decent designer would have made so many basic mistakes.

are you kidding me the human body is so amazing and complex...

have you ever seen a design that never breaks down or malfunctions...?

No, but I've seen many with redundant systems and that were free of major design flaws that would cause premature breakdown and loss of function. I'm an electronic engineer specializing in instrumentation and controls so I understand how things have to work and how to avoid obvious problems. What are your qualifications, please?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,101
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9/4/2015 1:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 1:00:05 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:44:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:39:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...

A masterpiece that falls apart and has numerous flaws that make life difficult and incredibly painful for many of us. It's marvelous but not designed. NO decent designer would have made so many basic mistakes.

are you kidding me the human body is so amazing and complex...

have you ever seen a design that never breaks down or malfunctions...?

No, but I've seen many with redundant systems and that were free of major design flaws that would cause premature breakdown and loss of function. I'm an electronic engineer specializing in instrumentation and controls so I understand how things have to work and how to avoid obvious problems. What are your qualifications, please?

have you created a living sentient being????
slo1
Posts: 4,362
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9/4/2015 1:23:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 11:05:13 PM, tstor wrote:
At 9/2/2015 10:59:13 PM, Jovian wrote:


You could not enjoy anything without free will. Or not genuinely anyways.

I find this statement is completely swallowed as truth by Christians and yet it is based upon pure conjecture and quite honestly lazy thinking.

You can indeed enjoy things without free will. Take your parents love. Is it indeed a good parenting technique to with hold love to your child for a period of time so that they may have something to contrast so they value the love more? No, not a good idea.

Enjoyment is nothing more than a physical response which creates a mental response or vice versa. I can enjoy basking in the sun on a chilly day whether I choose to sit in the sun or whether I was placed in the sun by someone else.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/4/2015 1:27:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 1:20:12 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 1:00:05 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:44:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:39:30 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:37:23 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:34:47 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:28:13 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:26:54 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:24:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:23:58 PM, dhardage wrote:
Because that would have been boring. No sinners means no mass murder or eternal punishment to dish out. What fun is watching an eternally healthy and happy populace when you can watch misery and pain, violence and death? Now that's entertainment!

or a bunch of robots playing at living, how dull...

Please. If he's omnipotent and omniscient he could have figured out a way. This is a very clumsily and poorly designed world, if it was designed at all.

so you could have done better..lol your problem is God didn't do it your way..lol

tell me how you can allow free will and not allow people to do bad things??

Remove the ability to do bad things. And for the record, I'm not a god but anyone with common sense can see just how badly designed the human body is, let alone the rest of the world.

remove the bad things and freedom of will goes...

badly designed the human body is, are you crazy the human body is a master piece...

A masterpiece that falls apart and has numerous flaws that make life difficult and incredibly painful for many of us. It's marvelous but not designed. NO decent designer would have made so many basic mistakes.

are you kidding me the human body is so amazing and complex...

have you ever seen a design that never breaks down or malfunctions...?

No, but I've seen many with redundant systems and that were free of major design flaws that would cause premature breakdown and loss of function. I'm an electronic engineer specializing in instrumentation and controls so I understand how things have to work and how to avoid obvious problems. What are your qualifications, please?

have you created a living sentient being????

No, but if I did I'd be certain that he didn't have to eat and breathe through the same hole (kills people), that his taste buds and body chemistry didn't crave things that are bad for him (excess sugar and fat, kills people) and that his eye didn't have a blind spot in the middle, among other things. We live with what evolution has handed down, not what anyone designed. Once again, what are your qualifications to critique system design?