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Refuting ISIS.

Yassine
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9/3/2015 3:50:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
- Although there has been a lot of refutations made by muslim scholars these past years against IS in particular, & terrorism in general (such as Open Letter to ISIL, signed by hundreds of scholars across the globe). This new book is written by someone who experienced first hand fanaticism & dealt with it for years, & is well grounded in the Islamic Tradition as well. It has just been recently translated & it already hit the Best Seller list on Amazon, entitled:
* Refuting ISIS: A Rebuttal Of Its Religious And Ideological Foundations.

- The author of the work, Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi, is a renown Syrian traditional scholar who comes from a long line of traditional scholars, from the Maliki legal school (which I belong to), the Ash'ari theological school (which I belong to as well), & the Shathili sufi school. He is a descendent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), particularly from the Idrisi branch (which I too am part of).

- I recommend this book for those interested in the authentic authoritative view of the Islamic Tradition on IS in particular & extremism in general. The work is quite short.

- Link:
* http://www.amazon.co.uk...
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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9/3/2015 4:35:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thank you for that, Yassine. I will try to get some time to read that. Here is another good book on the subject.

ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror
By Michael Weiss and Hassan Hassan

http://books.simonandschuster.com...
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/3/2015 9:39:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 3:50:10 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Although there has been a lot of refutations made by muslim scholars these past years against IS in particular, & terrorism in general (such as Open Letter to ISIL, signed by hundreds of scholars across the globe). This new book is written by someone who experienced first hand fanaticism & dealt with it for years, & is well grounded in the Islamic Tradition as well. It has just been recently translated & it already hit the Best Seller list on Amazon, entitled:
* Refuting ISIS: A Rebuttal Of Its Religious And Ideological Foundations.

- The author of the work, Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi, is a renown Syrian traditional scholar who comes from a long line of traditional scholars, from the Maliki legal school (which I belong to), the Ash'ari theological school (which I belong to as well), & the Shathili sufi school. He is a descendent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), particularly from the Idrisi branch (which I too am part of).

- I recommend this book for those interested in the authentic authoritative view of the Islamic Tradition on IS in particular & extremism in general. The work is quite short.

- Link:
* http://www.amazon.co.uk...

Hey Yassine. When i briefly looked up some stuff about the mess going on over there i found something interesting that i am not well versed in to understand. Actually, it is quite coincidental that you are sharing these books, bc that is where my question may be answered. But, i am studying law to become a legal assistant and am flooded with reading. Maybe you can answer my question. It is weird to me that they say the leaders of isis are Muslim Scholars. That they are following the Koran exactly. Why is it that they have this opinion or position in your opinion? Are they adding something or interpreting differently, literally ... i am curious in why they feel that they are following it better than everyone else in the faith.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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9/3/2015 11:00:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Good luck trying to convince us non-Muslims that Muhammad's Quran does not itself be the source of ISIS type of religious intolerance taken to insane degree. The words inspiring ISIS are clearly there in the Quran ready for justification to terrorize and kill for Muhammad's religion of war against all others. And because Muhammad set up a Mafia system to insure loyalty to his cause, i.e. killing of apostates so no one can quit without fear of retaliation, we can be assured that fundamentalists will be the ones making sure moderate Islam is condemned and attacked.

Since Muhammad's brainwashing technique that all Muslims must perform insures the words of the Quran are always in Muslims brains, I think it won't be possible for Muhammadans to grow up spiritually, they are brainwashed after all and it colors all their thinking, e.g the author of this thread is himself unable to think rationally about evolution and thinks it doesn't exist.
Yassine
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9/4/2015 5:36:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 9:39:40 PM, Outplayz wrote:

Hey Yassine. When i briefly looked up some stuff about the mess going on over there i found something interesting that i am not well versed in to understand. Actually, it is quite coincidental that you are sharing these books, bc that is where my question may be answered. But, i am studying law to become a legal assistant and am flooded with reading.

- Neat, good luck.

Maybe you can answer my question.

- Of course.

It is weird to me that they say the leaders of isis are Muslim Scholars. That they are following the Koran exactly. Why is it that they have this opinion or position in your opinion? Are they adding something or interpreting differently, literally ... i am curious in why they feel that they are following it better than everyone else in the faith.

- Let met start off by saying all these questions are addressed in the book I cited above. Now, I'll attempt to answer your questions separately.

I. Are the leaders of IS muslim scholars?

- Of course not. Some might have majored in or attended religious studies in the university, but does not make them scholars, not by a long shot.

II. What is a muslim scholar?

- Traditionally, we refer to scholar ('Alim, plural: 'Ulama) in a particular field, a person who has fulfilled 3 conditions:
1. Reached the degree of Ijtihad (in religious fields, such as law, theology...), or Tahq'iq (in secular fields, such as mathematics & natural sciences, & also in sufism).
2. Has a Sanad (chain of authority) that goes back to the Prophet (pbuh), attached to his name. Meaning, his teacher's teacher's teacher's.... teacher has to be Muhammad himself. In case of secular fields, the primary source has to be the founder of that field.
3. Has an Ijaza lit-Tadirisi wal-Iftaa (License to Teach & Advise) provided by another license scholar in the same field.
> Ex. Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaquobi is a traditional scholar, i.e. he has fulfilled all the above three conditions. On that note, all traditional scholars across the globe share the same overall position of al-Yaquobi against IS or similar groups.

III. What is Ijtihad?

- Ijtihad is the degree of mastery of the required knowledge in a particular field. It generally means: the ability & authority to independently contribute to the scholarly field. That is to say, a person who reached Ijtihad (in a particular field) can independently innovate & express his opinions about the field in question without the need to rely on any other ; that person is called: Mujtahid (or Muhaqqiq). For instance, a muhaqqiq physicist is an expert on physics who can deliberate & innovate in physics independently, Einstein would be a great example here. A student, or an average professor of physics, would thus not be considered muhaqqiq, for they can't but rely on others.

- More importantly, since scholars are necessarily licensed, they all belong to some mathhab (school of thought). To be licensed, one must belong to a school first, in which he would be licensed. That's why all scholars across History belonged to one or more school of thought. Nowadays, Salafis belong to no mathhab, & neither does IS.

IV. Why is it that they [IS] have this opinion or position in your opinion?

- Mainly, ignorance.

V. Are they adding something or interpreting differently, literally ...

- The issue of interpretation arises when laymen appropriate themselves the role to interpret the scriptures without the proper knowledge. There are fundamental things one must master before one can attempt to interpret the Qur'an, such as:
1. Arabic, this one is inevitable. If one does not master Arabic, one can not interpret the Qur'an, period. That is why a proper understanding of the Qur'an relates primarily to Arabic, such that it is a Literary interpretation, not so a literal one. Arabic is a language, & languages have real aspects & figurative or allegorical aspects. What the Qur'an says: "God's hands are stretched out", it doesn't imply that God has hands & they are literally stretched out! It means that God is Generous, for the expression 'hands stretched out' is an Arabic idiom for 'generous'. Thus, for a proper Literary interpretation of the Qur'an, mastery of Arabic is necessarily required.
2. The prophetic tradition, that is, interpreting the Qur'an comes after knowing what the Prophet (pbuh) said about it, & how he explained it or applied it. In which case, any interpretation that contradicts the directives of the Prophet (pbuh) would be simply false.
3. The conditions & circumstances of its revelation. The Qur'an is a series of verses, much of which deals with specific types of incidents which took place during the lifetime of Muhammad (pbuh). Knowing the circumstantial context is necessary for proper understanding.

- What fanatics usually opt for when asked if you don't master any of these things how can you claim to have understood properly the Qur'an! Their answer are generally in the range of: "we take directly from the source, the scholars are untrustworthy", or "the Qur'an is clear to us, therefore we understand it", or "why should someone else's opinion be better than mine", or "we are true muslims, the rest aren't"... The problem with these tendencies lies in 4 things:
1. Arrogance, where the person is self proclaimed, which is a common trait among religious people. There is a strict line between "religiosity" & "piety", the former is an act, whereas the latter is truthful. Religiosity often leads to harshness, ill will & even fanaticism.
2. Ignorance, or more precisely, compounded ignorance, such that the person doesn't know & doesn't know that he doesn't know. This usually leads to delusions & also fanaticism.
3. Dogma, i.e. close-mindedness. Fanatics are generally very dogmatic, which often impedes or prevents any means for communication & exchange of views in hope of convincing the person that he is wrong.
4. Defiance, as in denial of authority, authority here being the body of scholars. For instance, saying "the Qur'an is clear to me, therefore I understand it" is basically saying, my view is right & the scholars' is wrong. I have personally faced many fanatics (the soft kind, no where near the IS kind) & they all share this line of reasoning of disregard for authority & the ability to personally interpret the Qur'an, even without the proper knowledge. Depending on the type of person I am facing, my arguments differ. Ex.1, the Qur'an is in classical Arabic, you don't know classical Arabic, therefore you'll surely misunderstand it, otherwise you'd have known classic Arabic, which you don't. Ex.2, if anyone can interpret the Qur'an without the proper knowledge, then kids should be able to! What makes kids not qualified to do so? Then how are you any more qualified than they are?! Ex.3, other people use the same reasoning as you & understand the Qur'an differently than you do, why is your opinion more qualified than theirs?! Both of you are equally unqualified. Ex.4, if you wanna understand a mathematical reference you have to be qualified in mathematics, otherwise you'd be speaking nonsense...etc.

VI. i am curious in why they feel that they are following it better than everyone else in the faith.

- IS is categorised in our Tradition as Khawarij, which the Prophet (pbuh) has repeatedly warned against. Khawarij are essentially extremist fanatics that have some basic traits:
1. They rebel against authority, & defect from the Ummah.
2. They kill, plunder... in the name of religion.
3. They do takfir on muslims, i.e. they consider the muslims who disagree with them to be apostates, which makes it morally easier on them to kill.
...etc.

=> I am trying to be brief here, the book goes over this in much more details....etc.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/4/2015 5:58:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 5:36:04 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/3/2015 9:39:40 PM, Outplayz wrote:

II. What is a muslim scholar?

- Traditionally, we refer to scholar ('Alim, plural: 'Ulama) in a particular field, a person who has fulfilled 3 conditions:
1. Reached the degree of Ijtihad (in religious fields, such as law, theology...), or Tahq'iq (in secular fields, such as mathematics & natural sciences, & also in sufism).
2. Has a Sanad (chain of authority) that goes back to the Prophet (pbuh), attached to his name. Meaning, his teacher's teacher's teacher's.... teacher has to be Muhammad himself. In case of secular fields, the primary source has to be the founder of that field.
3. Has an Ijaza lit-Tadirisi wal-Iftaa (License to Teach & Advise) provided by another license scholar in the same field.
> Ex. Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaquobi is a traditional scholar, i.e. he has fulfilled all the above three conditions. On that note, all traditional scholars across the globe share the same overall position of al-Yaquobi against IS or similar groups.

III. What is Ijtihad?

- Ijtihad is the degree of mastery of the required knowledge in a particular field. It generally means: the ability & authority to independently contribute to the scholarly field. That is to say, a person who reached Ijtihad (in a particular field) can independently innovate & express his opinions about the field in question without the need to rely on any other ; that person is called: Mujtahid (or Muhaqqiq). For instance, a muhaqqiq physicist is an expert on physics who can deliberate & innovate in physics independently, Einstein would be a great example here. A student, or an average professor of physics, would thus not be considered muhaqqiq, for they can't but rely on others.

- More importantly, since scholars are necessarily licensed, they all belong to some mathhab (school of thought). To be licensed, one must belong to a school first, in which he would be licensed. That's why all scholars across History belonged to one or more school of thought. Nowadays, Salafis belong to no mathhab, & neither does IS.

IV. Why is it that they [IS] have this opinion or position in your opinion?

- Mainly, ignorance.

V. Are they adding something or interpreting differently, literally ...

- The issue of interpretation arises when laymen appropriate themselves the role to interpret the scriptures without the proper knowledge. There are fundamental things one must master before one can attempt to interpret the Qur'an, such as:
1. Arabic, this one is inevitable. If one does not master Arabic, one can not interpret the Qur'an, period. That is why a proper understanding of the Qur'an relates primarily to Arabic, such that it is a Literary interpretation, not so a literal one. Arabic is a language, & languages have real aspects & figurative or allegorical aspects. What the Qur'an says: "God's hands are stretched out", it doesn't imply that God has hands & they are literally stretched out! It means that God is Generous, for the expression 'hands stretched out' is an Arabic idiom for 'generous'. Thus, for a proper Literary interpretation of the Qur'an, mastery of Arabic is necessarily required.
2. The prophetic tradition, that is, interpreting the Qur'an comes after knowing what the Prophet (pbuh) said about it, & how he explained it or applied it. In which case, any interpretation that contradicts the directives of the Prophet (pbuh) would be simply false.
3. The conditions & circumstances of its revelation. The Qur'an is a series of verses, much of which deals with specific types of incidents which took place during the lifetime of Muhammad (pbuh). Knowing the circumstantial context is necessary for proper understanding.

- What fanatics usually opt for when asked if you don't master any of these things how can you claim to have understood properly the Qur'an! Their answer are generally in the range of: "we take directly from the source, the scholars are untrustworthy", or "the Qur'an is clear to us, therefore we understand it", or "why should someone else's opinion be better than mine", or "we are true muslims, the rest aren't"... The problem with these tendencies lies in 4 things:
1. Arrogance, where the person is self proclaimed, which is a common trait among religious people. There is a strict line between "religiosity" & "piety", the former is an act, whereas the latter is truthful. Religiosity often leads to harshness, ill will & even fanaticism.
2. Ignorance, or more precisely, compounded ignorance, such that the person doesn't know & doesn't know that he doesn't know. This usually leads to delusions & also fanaticism.
3. Dogma, i.e. close-mindedness. Fanatics are generally very dogmatic, which often impedes or prevents any means for communication & exchange of views in hope of convincing the person that he is wrong.
4. Defiance, as in denial of authority, authority here being the body of scholars. For instance, saying "the Qur'an is clear to me, therefore I understand it" is basically saying, my view is right & the scholars' is wrong. I have personally faced many fanatics (the soft kind, no where near the IS kind) & they all share this line of reasoning of disregard for authority & the ability to personally interpret the Qur'an, even without the proper knowledge. Depending on the type of person I am facing, my arguments differ. Ex.1, the Qur'an is in classical Arabic, you don't know classical Arabic, therefore you'll surely misunderstand it, otherwise you'd have known classic Arabic, which you don't. Ex.2, if anyone can interpret the Qur'an without the proper knowledge, then kids should be able to! What makes kids not qualified to do so? Then how are you any more qualified than they are?! Ex.3, other people use the same reasoning as you & understand the Qur'an differently than you do, why is your opinion more qualified than theirs?! Both of you are equally unqualified. Ex.4, if you wanna understand a mathematical reference you have to be qualified in mathematics, otherwise you'd be speaking nonsense...etc.

VI. i am curious in why they feel that they are following it better than everyone else in the faith.

- IS is categorised in our Tradition as Khawarij, which the Prophet (pbuh) has repeatedly warned against. Khawarij are essentially extremist fanatics that have some basic traits:
1. They rebel against authority, & defect from the Ummah.
2. They kill, plunder... in the name of religion.
3. They do takfir on muslims, i.e. they consider the muslims who disagree with them to be apostates, which makes it morally easier on them to kill.
...etc.

That was a great answer; i understood it all (i actually feel bad to backspace it for more characters to write lol). That was what i was looking for, and to be honest how i felt. I like to challenge this faith bc i know that it is good. My family is Muslim by location (Persian). I personally have never met a middle eastern that wasn't full of love and charity. I am not religious for reasons ... but, i do think scholars or prophets were special. Every spiritual person is special in my eyes. I'm glad to see you have a deep mind. Unfortunately for fanatics, it is purely science; psychology. Some (or sadly it seems like a lot) just do not have the mental ability to reason or use logic. To me, religion is dangerous in those hands, which is most likely what's going on in the far east. Thanks for the answer again. Mercy! :)
uncung
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9/4/2015 6:13:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 3:50:10 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Although there has been a lot of refutations made by muslim scholars these past years against IS in particular, & terrorism in general (such as Open Letter to ISIL, signed by hundreds of scholars across the globe). This new book is written by someone who experienced first hand fanaticism & dealt with it for years, & is well grounded in the Islamic Tradition as well. It has just been recently translated & it already hit the Best Seller list on Amazon, entitled:
* Refuting ISIS: A Rebuttal Of Its Religious And Ideological Foundations.

- The author of the work, Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi, is a renown Syrian traditional scholar who comes from a long line of traditional scholars, from the Maliki legal school (which I belong to), the Ash'ari theological school (which I belong to as well), & the Shathili sufi school. He is a descendent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), particularly from the Idrisi branch (which I too am part of).

- I recommend this book for those interested in the authentic authoritative view of the Islamic Tradition on IS in particular & extremism in general. The work is quite short.

- Link:
* http://www.amazon.co.uk...

Does the book assert that ISIS violate Islamic teaching? In the simple question, do ISIS oppose Quran and Hadith?
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/4/2015 9:00:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 6:13:30 AM, uncung wrote:

Does the book assert that ISIS violate Islamic teaching? In the simple question, do ISIS oppose Quran and Hadith?

- Specifically, the author demonstrates how IS are Khawarij.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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9/4/2015 9:25:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 5:58:44 AM, Outplayz wrote:

That was a great answer; i understood it all (i actually feel bad to backspace it for more characters to write lol). That was what i was looking for, and to be honest how i felt.

- Good to know. :)

I like to challenge this faith bc i know that it is good. My family is Muslim by location (Persian). I personally have never met a middle eastern that wasn't full of love and charity.

- True.

I am not religious for reasons ... but, i do think scholars or prophets were special. Every spiritual person is special in my eyes. I'm glad to see you have a deep mind. Unfortunately for fanatics, it is purely science; psychology. Some (or sadly it seems like a lot) just do not have the mental ability to reason or use logic.

- Education is the problem. There is lack of proper & formal education due to other factors such as, poverty, tyranny, civil war...

To me, religion is dangerous in those hands, which is most likely what's going on in the far east.

- Of course. Religion is a double-edged sword. It can be a force of good if used properly, & it can be a force of evil if abused. However, the conflict in the Middle East is far from being religious. When you push an animal into a corner he naturally gets aggressive. Even more so, when you push people into a corner & keep pushing they'll get aggressive. The population in Iraq, Syria, Palestine... has been defeated, subjugated, exploited, humiliated, their lands invaded, their riches plundered, their families killed, scattered or displaced... & on top of that they've been demonised by both their allies & enemies. What do expect is gonna happen?! It's the most natural thing in the world that extremism would flourish in such conditions.

Thanks for the answer again. Mercy! :)

- You're welcome. (& you mean 'Merci', 'thanks' in French).
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 9:28:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 3:50:10 PM, Yassine wrote:
- Although there has been a lot of refutations made by muslim scholars these past years against IS in particular, & terrorism in general (such as Open Letter to ISIL, signed by hundreds of scholars across the globe). This new book is written by someone who experienced first hand fanaticism & dealt with it for years, & is well grounded in the Islamic Tradition as well. It has just been recently translated & it already hit the Best Seller list on Amazon, entitled:
* Refuting ISIS: A Rebuttal Of Its Religious And Ideological Foundations.

- The author of the work, Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi, is a renown Syrian traditional scholar who comes from a long line of traditional scholars, from the Maliki legal school (which I belong to), the Ash'ari theological school (which I belong to as well), & the Shathili sufi school. He is a descendent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), particularly from the Idrisi branch (which I too am part of).

- I recommend this book for those interested in the authentic authoritative view of the Islamic Tradition on IS in particular & extremism in general. The work is quite short.

- Link:
* http://www.amazon.co.uk...

wow i'm sure the isis leaders will read the book and stop what they are doing
immediately...

it is so good to know all these atrocities are being committed by a group that has their theology wrong, many people who have lost family and friends will be comforted...
Yassine
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9/4/2015 9:41:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:28:39 AM, graceofgod wrote:

wow i'm sure the isis leaders will read the book and stop what they are doing
immediately...

- Of course not. There have been a lot of attempts to establish a communication line with ISIS to convince them of their wrong doings, & all have failed. So far, 4 (or probably more) scholars lost their lives trying to carry out that mission.

it is so good to know all these atrocities are being committed by a group that has their theology wrong, many people who have lost family and friends will be comforted...

- This book & others like it are mostly directed at young recruits who are being zealously duped into thinking ISIS are right, in hope to convince them that what they are doing is wrong & against the religion. & as you mentioned, it may also enlighten those whose fear have been exploited due to ignorance. This way, ISIS would lose its leverage on both fronts.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
uncung
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9/4/2015 9:48:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:00:02 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 6:13:30 AM, uncung wrote:

Does the book assert that ISIS violate Islamic teaching? In the simple question, do ISIS oppose Quran and Hadith?

- Specifically, the author demonstrates how IS are Khawarij.

Why are they called so, Khawarij? Prove it.
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 9:53:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:41:17 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 9:28:39 AM, graceofgod wrote:

wow i'm sure the isis leaders will read the book and stop what they are doing
immediately...

- Of course not. There have been a lot of attempts to establish a communication line with ISIS to convince them of their wrong doings, & all have failed. So far, 4 (or probably more) scholars lost their lives trying to carry out that mission.

it is so good to know all these atrocities are being committed by a group that has their theology wrong, many people who have lost family and friends will be comforted...

- This book & others like it are mostly directed at young recruits who are being zealously duped into thinking ISIS are right, in hope to convince them that what they are doing is wrong & against the religion. & as you mentioned, it may also enlighten those whose fear have been exploited due to ignorance. This way, ISIS would lose its leverage on both fronts.

do we see the top muslim leaders go on tv all around the world and say clearly to all muslims that terrorism and force is not how islam should be spread.
do they say that those who die killing others will not be martyr's,..

let's face it the books and scholars are wasting their time talking to isis it seems more like an attempt to try and hide the face of islam some would like to keep hidden...
Yassine
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9/4/2015 9:55:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:48:51 AM, uncung wrote:

Why are they called so, Khawarij? Prove it.

- That wasn't my claim, it's the conclusion of the author of the book. Read the book. You'll find out.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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9/4/2015 10:02:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:53:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:

do we see the top muslim leaders go on tv all around the world and say clearly to all muslims that terrorism and force is not how islam should be spread.

- I don't know who the "we" here refers to, but muslim leaders across the world have tried their best to make their message reach as far as possible. You might not be aware of these movements, or maybe your media didn't report on them, but they do exist, all over the world.

do they say that those who die killing others will not be martyr's,..

- Depends on what killing are you referring to! & yes, if it's unlawful killing, then they have indeed spoken about it.

let's face it the books and scholars are wasting their time talking to isis it seems more like an attempt to try and hide the face of islam some would like to keep hidden...

- What are you talking about?! What face is that?! Hidden from who or what?! Surely, the scholars are not wasting their time. A great number of fanatics have repented due to their efforts & constant reminders.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 10:02:14 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 9:53:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:

do we see the top muslim leaders go on tv all around the world and say clearly to all muslims that terrorism and force is not how islam should be spread.

- I don't know who the "we" here refers to, but muslim leaders across the world have tried their best to make their message reach as far as possible. You might not be aware of these movements, or maybe your media didn't report on them, but they do exist, all over the world.

do they say that those who die killing others will not be martyr's,..

- Depends on what killing are you referring to! & yes, if it's unlawful killing, then they have indeed spoken about it.

let's face it the books and scholars are wasting their time talking to isis it seems more like an attempt to try and hide the face of islam some would like to keep hidden...

- What are you talking about?! What face is that?! Hidden from who or what?! Surely, the scholars are not wasting their time. A great number of fanatics have repented due to their efforts & constant reminders.

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??
perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..
Yassine
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9/4/2015 10:44:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM, graceofgod wrote:

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

- So?!!! Then get to seeing, if you have any interest.

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

- NO. Self defence is lawful killing.

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??

- I doubt that.

perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..

- No such verses.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
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9/4/2015 10:45:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 4:35:19 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
Thank you for that, Yassine. I will try to get some time to read that. Here is another good book on the subject.

- You're welcome. Enjoy! :)

ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror
By Michael Weiss and Hassan Hassan

http://books.simonandschuster.com...

- I'll try to take a look. Thank you.
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uncung
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9/4/2015 10:51:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why are they called so, Khawarij? Prove it.

- That wasn't my claim, it's the conclusion of the author of the book. Read the book. You'll find out.

If you could not prove it then I (always) consider it is merely an accusation. Every time I ask this, the accusers cannot account their accusation on ISIS.
uncung
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9/4/2015 10:54:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you could not prove it then I (always) consider it is merely an accusation. Every time I ask this, the accusers cannot account for their accusation on ISIS.
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 10:44:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM, graceofgod wrote:

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

- So?!!! Then get to seeing, if you have any interest.

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

- NO. Self defence is lawful killing.

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??

- I doubt that.

perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..

- No such verses.

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

what is jihad??

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??
Otokage
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9/4/2015 12:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:44:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM, graceofgod wrote:

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

- So?!!! Then get to seeing, if you have any interest.

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

- NO. Self defence is lawful killing.

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??

- I doubt that.

perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..

- No such verses.

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

what is jihad??

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??

I find it a little hypocrite to be a Christian and point at other religion because of its opinion on homosexuals... Homosexuals are discriminated all over the world not because of Islam, but because of Christianity. Never forget that when you jump in our defence.

The gesture is appreciated though.
Peace.
Yassine
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9/4/2015 12:22:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 10:51:21 AM, uncung wrote:

If you could not prove it then I (always) consider it is merely an accusation. Every time I ask this, the accusers cannot account their accusation on ISIS.

- As I was saying, the author of the book made the claim, & thereafter proved it. If you think his stance is merely an accusation, then read his book first & see for yourself.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 12:24:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 12:18:52 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:44:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM, graceofgod wrote:

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

- So?!!! Then get to seeing, if you have any interest.

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

- NO. Self defence is lawful killing.

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??

- I doubt that.

perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..

- No such verses.

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

what is jihad??

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??

I find it a little hypocrite to be a Christian and point at other religion because of its opinion on homosexuals... Homosexuals are discriminated all over the world not because of Islam, but because of Christianity. Never forget that when you jump in our defence.

The gesture is appreciated though.
Peace.

Christians will say it is against God's will but they don't hang them or throw them off tall buildings... the two are quite different...
Otokage
Posts: 2,351
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9/4/2015 12:26:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 12:24:02 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 12:18:52 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:44:00 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:23:56 AM, graceofgod wrote:

No i have never seen a tv programme where any islamic teacher has said that terrorism is wrong and anyone who kills themselves and others is not going to heaven for it... not to the general believers of islam..

- So?!!! Then get to seeing, if you have any interest.

unlawful killing, so islam supports lawful killing, such as gays or s0omething like that, or so called "honour " killing...

- NO. Self defence is lawful killing.

you think isis will be talked out of terroism ??

- I doubt that.

perhaps they have read the verses that says terrorise and kill the infidels ..

- No such verses.

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

what is jihad??

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??

I find it a little hypocrite to be a Christian and point at other religion because of its opinion on homosexuals... Homosexuals are discriminated all over the world not because of Islam, but because of Christianity. Never forget that when you jump in our defence.

The gesture is appreciated though.
Peace.

Christians will say it is against God's will but they don't hang them or throw them off tall buildings... the two are quite different...

They won't do it today, but surely they can find plenty of justification in the Bible to hang homosexuals or whatever they want to do with them.
Yassine
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9/4/2015 12:33:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM, graceofgod wrote:

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

- You mean as in Penalty?!

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

- Honour killings are un-Islamic. They are practices generally associated with tribal type societies, as the name would suggest. Aside from Arabs, virtually all tribal societies in the world, Islamic or not, have practices of honour killings. Such as Italy, India, Turkey, regions of south America, south east Asia, & mostly in subsaharan Africa...etc. However, there are some very few Arab regions that house such practices, mainly in Yemen & Egypt. If you go to North Africa, although being entirely Islamic, honour killings are unheard of there.
- More importantly, honour killings are prohibited in Islam, period.

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

- Their heads I suppose.

what is jihad??

- Jihad = struggle in the cause of Allah.

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??

- Depends on the context.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
uncung
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9/4/2015 12:39:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 12:22:28 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:51:21 AM, uncung wrote:

If you could not prove it then I (always) consider it is merely an accusation. Every time I ask this, the accusers cannot account their accusation on ISIS.

- As I was saying, the author of the book made the claim, & thereafter proved it. If you think his stance is merely an accusation, then read his book first & see for yourself.

And so far, none able to prove that ISIS are khawarij. It is merely an accusation. This is internet forum. So the users suppose to support their assertion with the link, at least the page of the book with link. Otherwise it is not worthy to be discussed.
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 12:43:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 12:33:42 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 11:17:52 AM, graceofgod wrote:

so why does islam kill gays, do they do it unlawfully??

- You mean as in Penalty?!

why does "honour" killing happen is it unlawful..??

- Honour killings are un-Islamic. They are practices generally associated with tribal type societies, as the name would suggest. Aside from Arabs, virtually all tribal societies in the world, Islamic or not, have practices of honour killings. Such as Italy, India, Turkey, regions of south America, south east Asia, & mostly in subsaharan Africa...etc. However, there are some very few Arab regions that house such practices, mainly in Yemen & Egypt. If you go to North Africa, although being entirely Islamic, honour killings are unheard of there.
- More importantly, honour killings are prohibited in Islam, period.

if there are no verses in the koran about killing or terrorising where are muslims getting the idea from to kill and terrorise??

- Their heads I suppose.

what is jihad??

- Jihad = struggle in the cause of Allah.

do those who kill themselves while killing infidels get to heaven as martyr's??

- Depends on the context.

just answer the question , does islam consider the killing of gays as lawful...??

so you are saying all "honour " killing is against the koran??

so all the muslims who have killed or who are killing in the name of allah are doing it illegally and against the koran??

so struggle for allah could mean killing which would be legal by the koran???

so going to heaven for killing depends on context but killing is unlawful, sounds like a bit of a cover up here..

does lying to protect yourself or islam come from the koran???
Yassine
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9/4/2015 1:04:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 12:39:44 PM, uncung wrote:
At 9/4/2015 12:22:28 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/4/2015 10:51:21 AM, uncung wrote:

If you could not prove it then I (always) consider it is merely an accusation. Every time I ask this, the accusers cannot account their accusation on ISIS.

- As I was saying, the author of the book made the claim, & thereafter proved it. If you think his stance is merely an accusation, then read his book first & see for yourself.

And so far, none able to prove that ISIS are khawarij. It is merely an accusation. This is internet forum. So the users suppose to support their assertion with the link, at least the page of the book with link. Otherwise it is not worthy to be discussed.

- The link is in the OP.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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uncung
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9/4/2015 1:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

And so far, none able to prove that ISIS are khawarij. It is merely an accusation. This is internet forum. So the users suppose to support their assertion with the link, at least the page of the book with link. Otherwise it is not worthy to be discussed.

- The link is in the OP.

OK, it is on Amazon store. Nevertheless, can you tell us why did the author accuse ISIS as Khawarij? I think you will say that you forget what he said, right?