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does the koran say it is ok to lie??

graceofgod
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9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...
uncung
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9/4/2015 2:09:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

No, it doesn't.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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9/4/2015 2:25:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

Yes, Islam allows and condones Muslims to lie and kill. Muslims will argue that certain conditions or circumstances must arise in order for them to lie and kill, but their arguments are self-defeating as they are forced to admit it.

Of course, both Jesus and Ghandi (among many others) have always taught that any kind of dishonesty or violence is unacceptable and prohibited under any circumstances. Not so with Islam.

I have been told that these allowances are simply part and parcel to the Arab mindset of that time, which is why many Muslims are demanding the reform of Islam and bring it into the 21st century.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
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9/4/2015 2:33:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:25:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

Yes, Islam allows and condones Muslims to lie and kill. Muslims will argue that certain conditions or circumstances must arise in order for them to lie and kill, but their arguments are self-defeating as they are forced to admit it.

Of course, both Jesus and Ghandi (among many others) have always taught that any kind of dishonesty or violence is unacceptable and prohibited under any circumstances. Not so with Islam.

I have been told that these allowances are simply part and parcel to the Arab mindset of that time, which is why many Muslims are demanding the reform of Islam and bring it into the 21st century.

Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 2:48:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:33:28 PM, uncung wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:25:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

Yes, Islam allows and condones Muslims to lie and kill. Muslims will argue that certain conditions or circumstances must arise in order for them to lie and kill, but their arguments are self-defeating as they are forced to admit it.

Of course, both Jesus and Ghandi (among many others) have always taught that any kind of dishonesty or violence is unacceptable and prohibited under any circumstances. Not so with Islam.

I have been told that these allowances are simply part and parcel to the Arab mindset of that time, which is why many Muslims are demanding the reform of Islam and bring it into the 21st century.

Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

http://www.islam-watch.org...

i found this and much like it ....
DanneJeRusse
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9/4/2015 2:55:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:33:28 PM, uncung wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:25:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

Yes, Islam allows and condones Muslims to lie and kill. Muslims will argue that certain conditions or circumstances must arise in order for them to lie and kill, but their arguments are self-defeating as they are forced to admit it.

Of course, both Jesus and Ghandi (among many others) have always taught that any kind of dishonesty or violence is unacceptable and prohibited under any circumstances. Not so with Islam.

I have been told that these allowances are simply part and parcel to the Arab mindset of that time, which is why many Muslims are demanding the reform of Islam and bring it into the 21st century.

Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

Of course, they are there far all to see. This is not something Muslims deny. Why would you deny it?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
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9/4/2015 2:56:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

http://www.islam-watch.org...

i found this and much like it ....

Taqiyya is practiced in Syiah/Shiites. And they are not muslims. Their teaching base on their mullah's private opinion instead of Quran or Hadith. That's why one cannot find the lawful of lying in Quran and Hadith.
DanneJeRusse
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9/4/2015 2:57:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:56:43 PM, uncung wrote:
Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

http://www.islam-watch.org...

i found this and much like it ....

Taqiyya is practiced in Syiah/Shiites. And they are not muslims.

Ah yes, the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Their teaching base on their mullah's private opinion instead of Quran or Hadith. That's why one cannot find the lawful of lying in Quran and Hadith.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
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9/4/2015 2:58:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

Of course, they are there far all to see. This is not something Muslims deny. Why would you deny it?

Then show me one of them.
DanneJeRusse
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9/4/2015 3:00:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:58:31 PM, uncung wrote:
Lying is not allowed in Islam. Can you provide the islamic passages for your assertion?

Of course, they are there far all to see. This is not something Muslims deny. Why would you deny it?

Then show me one of them.

Why? This ridiculous argument has been done to death a million times over. Other Muslims here have already explained it to death, as well. They don't deny it.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
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9/4/2015 3:02:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Then show me one of them.

Why? This ridiculous argument has been done to death a million times over. Other Muslims here have already explained it to death, as well. They don't deny it.

Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.
DanneJeRusse
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9/4/2015 3:19:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 3:02:37 PM, uncung wrote:
Then show me one of them.

Why? This ridiculous argument has been done to death a million times over. Other Muslims here have already explained it to death, as well. They don't deny it.

Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.

Dude, have not even read your own holy books?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
uncung
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9/4/2015 3:29:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.

Dude, have not even read your own holy books?

Forget it, assume it is in my Quran. as usual.
uncung
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9/4/2015 3:29:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.

Dude, have not even read your own holy books?

Forget it, assume it is in my Quran. as usual.
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 3:44:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 3:29:14 PM, uncung wrote:
Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.

Dude, have not even read your own holy books?

Forget it, assume it is in my Quran. as usual.

Mufakhathat does this appear in the koran..
SimplyAidan
Posts: 51
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9/4/2015 3:45:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 3:29:14 PM, uncung wrote:
Can you help me to know the weakness of Islam? If so, then show me the islamic passages that allow to lie.

Dude, have not even read your own holy books?

Forget it, assume it is in my Quran. as usual.
uncung
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9/4/2015 3:59:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Forget it, assume it is in my Quran. as usual.


Mufakhathat does this appear in the koran..
What is that?
TBR
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9/4/2015 4:08:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:09:14 PM, uncung wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

No, it doesn't.

Look, I think this has been done enough, and I care so little about if it does or doesn't mean this to YOU. I think it is more of a question if some take it that way, and I think they do.

This video isn't a bad example of an explanation.
https://www.youtube.com...
Harikrish
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9/4/2015 4:09:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are 164 jihad verses to deal with you infidels and yet the Muslim members choose peace. Truly Islam is a religion of peace because its followers choose the peaceful path.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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9/4/2015 4:14:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

Lying itself is considered 'bad', but there are exceptions. One narrow one is that, if saying that you are a Muslim will get you killed or severely persecuted, then you can lie and say that you are not a Muslim without it counting as apostasy or a lie. This is what taqiyya is. Shi'a Muslims are more permissible in this matter; in Sunni Islam, you CAN lie, but it is considered more virtuous to essentially martyr oneself and refuse to revoke one's faith even in the face of death or severe persecution. This is probably due to the fact that Shi'as typically faced more persecution, historically, and thus were more lenient when it came to lying to preserve one's faith as a result (Sunni Islam dominated the Islamic world, politically, until the rise of the Fatimid caliphate.)

There are other exceptions that go into great detail: lying when complimenting someone in order to settle a disagreement, lying when acting as a diplomat (as diplomacy wouldn't really function without lies), safeguarding the goods of another which have been entrusted to you, and a 'Jews in the attic' scenario (there are more, their laws are really intricate on this point). In all cases, lying is permitted only if it is the only way to attain a morally obligatory outcome, and only if it is for the common good, and not one's own selfish gain. There are also some forms of lying which are explicitly prohibited no matter what the case, one of which is lying about the teachings of Muhammad ("Do not tell a lie against me, for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire." -Bukhari Volume 1, No 107). So the interpretation of taqiyya prevalent on anti-Islamic websites (that all Muslims have lied about the true nature of Islamic teachings in some absurd, 1,5000 year old, global conspiracy, so you can only trust our dubious info on Islam, herp derp) is particularly farcical in light of the fact that Islam explicitly teaches that doing so earns someone a one-way ticket to hell.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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9/4/2015 4:18:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:08:31 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:09:14 PM, uncung wrote:
At 9/4/2015 2:06:48 PM, graceofgod wrote:
to protect yourself or islam and if it does how can we trust what those who follow islam says about their so called religion of peace...

No, it doesn't.

Look, I think this has been done enough, and I care so little about if it does or doesn't mean this to YOU. I think it is more of a question if some take it that way, and I think they do.

This video isn't a bad example of an explanation.
https://www.youtube.com...

Why do you think that they do? And this 'we can't trust anything that Muslims say about Islam' idiocy is predicated on the belief that ALL Muslims do this, and have been doing this, for hundreds of years, not that there are a negligible percentage of ignorant Muslims who obviously do not understand their own religion's teachings on the matter.

And I hope you aren't using that video as an example of a Muslim who believes that it is acceptable to lie about doctrine in order to protect Islam...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
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9/4/2015 4:22:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Look, I think this has been done enough, and I care so little about if it does or doesn't mean this to YOU. I think it is more of a question if some take it that way, and I think they do.

This video isn't a bad example of an explanation.
https://www.youtube.com...

Why do you think that they do? And this 'we can't trust anything that Muslims say about Islam' idiocy is predicated on the belief that ALL Muslims do this, and have been doing this, for hundreds of years, not that there are a negligible percentage of ignorant Muslims who obviously do not understand their own religion's teachings on the matter.

And I hope you aren't using that video as an example of a Muslim who believes that it is acceptable to lie about doctrine in order to protect Islam...
Well, did you watch the video? It was his contention that the meaning of the verse is that you can lie.

As I stated clearly, some may interpret it differently, I don't care. Some will read that passage and others often cited as license to lie when it is in Islams interests.
Skepsikyma
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9/4/2015 4:24:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:22:14 PM, TBR wrote:
Look, I think this has been done enough, and I care so little about if it does or doesn't mean this to YOU. I think it is more of a question if some take it that way, and I think they do.

This video isn't a bad example of an explanation.
https://www.youtube.com...

Why do you think that they do? And this 'we can't trust anything that Muslims say about Islam' idiocy is predicated on the belief that ALL Muslims do this, and have been doing this, for hundreds of years, not that there are a negligible percentage of ignorant Muslims who obviously do not understand their own religion's teachings on the matter.

And I hope you aren't using that video as an example of a Muslim who believes that it is acceptable to lie about doctrine in order to protect Islam...
Well, did you watch the video? It was his contention that the meaning of the verse is that you can lie.

As I stated clearly, some may interpret it differently, I don't care. Some will read that passage and others often cited as license to lie when it is in Islams interests.

He's not a Muslim. His name is 'muslimillusion', and he makes a lot anti-Islamic videos: https://www.youtube.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
TBR
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9/4/2015 4:25:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
He's not a Muslim. His name is 'muslimillusion', and he makes a lot anti-Islamic videos: https://www.youtube.com...

I didn't say he was, or that he is not making anti-Islamic videos - only said it is a reasonable example.
Skepsikyma
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9/4/2015 4:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:25:32 PM, TBR wrote:
He's not a Muslim. His name is 'muslimillusion', and he makes a lot anti-Islamic videos: https://www.youtube.com...

I didn't say he was, or that he is not making anti-Islamic videos - only said it is a reasonable example.

No, it isn't. If you can can find an example of a Muslim arguing that it is okay to lie about doctrine, then you will have the shadow of a point. If you find a sizable portion of Muslims who believe this, then you will have some ground to stand on. But the fact that you can ONLY find non-Muslims who put forth this interpretation speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of said interpretation, unless you want to argue that there's some sort of global conspiracy going on. And at that point the conversation just becomes absurd.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 4:29:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:09:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
There are 164 jihad verses to deal with you infidels and yet the Muslim members choose peace. Truly Islam is a religion of peace because its followers choose the peaceful path.

yeah all those killing and doing the terrorising are just reading a different version.....
TBR
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9/4/2015 4:36:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:28:42 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:25:32 PM, TBR wrote:
He's not a Muslim. His name is 'muslimillusion', and he makes a lot anti-Islamic videos: https://www.youtube.com...

I didn't say he was, or that he is not making anti-Islamic videos - only said it is a reasonable example.

No, it isn't. If you can can find an example of a Muslim arguing that it is okay to lie about doctrine, then you will have the shadow of a point. If you find a sizable portion of Muslims who believe this, then you will have some ground to stand on. But the fact that you can ONLY find non-Muslims who put forth this interpretation speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of said interpretation, unless you want to argue that there's some sort of global conspiracy going on. And at that point the conversation just becomes absurd.

Wait, so I must provide proof that someone can not lie, by finding someone who would lie to tell me they can't lie. Yea, OK. Let me work on that.
Skepsikyma
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9/4/2015 4:46:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:36:17 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:28:42 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:25:32 PM, TBR wrote:
He's not a Muslim. His name is 'muslimillusion', and he makes a lot anti-Islamic videos: https://www.youtube.com...

I didn't say he was, or that he is not making anti-Islamic videos - only said it is a reasonable example.

No, it isn't. If you can can find an example of a Muslim arguing that it is okay to lie about doctrine, then you will have the shadow of a point. If you find a sizable portion of Muslims who believe this, then you will have some ground to stand on. But the fact that you can ONLY find non-Muslims who put forth this interpretation speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of said interpretation, unless you want to argue that there's some sort of global conspiracy going on. And at that point the conversation just becomes absurd.

Wait, so I must provide proof that someone can not lie, by finding someone who would lie to tell me they can't lie. Yea, OK. Let me work on that.

And this is why your position is farcical. You believe in a conspiracy of a colossal scale which is inherently unfalsifiable. You are in the same camp as the crazies who think that there's a secret gay agenda meant to destroy the American family, and when presented with evidence to the contrary screams 'WELL OF COURSE THEY'LL LIE TO YOU ABOUT IT!' Honestly, you are an otherwise reasonable person; how have you strayed into tinfoil hat territory without realizing it?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Harikrish
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9/4/2015 4:46:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:29:52 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:09:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
There are 164 jihad verses to deal with you infidels and yet the Muslim members choose peace. Truly Islam is a religion of peace because its followers choose the peaceful path.

yeah all those killing and doing the terrorising are just reading a different version.....

There are more guns (300 million) in the hands of Christian Americans than there are guns in the hands of a few thousand Jihadists who are mostly volunteers.
graceofgod
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9/4/2015 4:49:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 4:46:55 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:29:52 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/4/2015 4:09:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
There are 164 jihad verses to deal with you infidels and yet the Muslim members choose peace. Truly Islam is a religion of peace because its followers choose the peaceful path.

yeah all those killing and doing the terrorising are just reading a different version.....

There are more guns (300 million) in the hands of Christian Americans than there are guns in the hands of a few thousand Jihadists who are mostly volunteers.

maybe but who are in the papers pratically every day for killing people, the muslims are, so go figure that one out.!!!!