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Analogy of God and Clouds

GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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9/5/2015 12:54:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

Well if the deity exists it never came through for me, even though I begged it to when I was a believer!
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/5/2015 2:34:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.

Yes. It then takes a series of stories, analogies, logical fallacy, and a heaping helping of peer pressure to "see" Him.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
b_sorelson
Posts: 78
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9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/5/2015 3:05:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.

And the some that claim they have are without clue as to how to explain what they have that the others don't. The reason they can't is because what they think they have is no more than self-delusion.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/5/2015 3:09:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.

Then how do you claim to see, if you have no functioning eyes? Are you pretending or are you delusional?
b_sorelson
Posts: 78
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9/5/2015 3:58:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:05:50 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.

And the some that claim they have are without clue as to how to explain what they have that the others don't. The reason they can't is because what they think they have is no more than self-delusion. : :

I'm sorry that you don't have it. If you did, then you would understand what it is that I have.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/5/2015 4:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org...

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 6:38:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:34:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.

Yes. It then takes a series of stories, analogies, logical fallacy, and a heaping helping of peer pressure to "see" Him.

That would be your experience not mine.
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 6:53:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:05:50 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.

And the some that claim they have are without clue as to how to explain what they have that the others don't. The reason they can't is because what they think they have is no more than self-delusion.

It doesn't matter how it is explained, as with seeing the cloud, the person with sight cannot prove the cloud is there.
How in the world could you know my experiences in my faith?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/5/2015 6:55:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

You appear to be stumped with my first post. Should you have prepared better?

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org......

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 6:59:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:09:53 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.

Then how do you claim to see, if you have no functioning eyes? Are you pretending or are you delusional?

I said we were all born blind to God, I didn't say we all stayed that way. Pretending or delusional? lol neither.
GraciePearl
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9/5/2015 7:11:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 4:58:33 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org...

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."

Wow! that is pretty deep! A lot of explanation for a blind person not seeing the clouds in the sky. I'm having problems understanding where you are coming from.
GraciePearl
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9/5/2015 7:24:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 6:55:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

You appear to be stumped with my first post. Should you have prepared better?

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org......

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."

Your first post? Is this it? all of the scripture about clouds, heaven, and Jesus coming. I was kinda stumped regarding the relevance. Should I have been better prepared? I stumbled on this websight looking for what people were saying about the clerk from KY. Saw some interesting conversations thought I would join. I have thought about this analogy for a long time, just wanted to put it out there for all of the critics. I'm very interested in how they will put holes in it or make it into something it's not.
Harikrish
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9/5/2015 7:24:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 7:11:21 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:58:33 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org...

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."

Wow! that is pretty deep! A lot of explanation for a blind person not seeing the clouds in the sky. I'm having problems understanding where you are coming from.

That is not my deep thoughts. It is from PGA an advocate of Preterism. You can get more of his profundity if you are into such things here. The more sober and intelligent posts are mine.

http://www.debate.org...
Harikrish
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9/5/2015 7:33:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 7:24:08 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:55:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

You appear to be stumped with my first post. Should you have prepared better?

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org......

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."

Your first post? Is this it? all of the scripture about clouds, heaven, and Jesus coming. I was kinda stumped regarding the relevance. Should I have been better prepared? I stumbled on this websight looking for what people were saying about the clerk from KY. Saw some interesting conversations thought I would join. I have thought about this analogy for a long time, just wanted to put it out there for all of the critics. I'm very interested in how they will put holes in it or make it into something it's not.

Christians don't do well with God and clouds. It just clouds their judgement.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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9/5/2015 7:34:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

Then, without scientific explanations and a description of God, your analogy fails and is utterly useless. A complete waste of time.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fkkize
Posts: 2,147
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9/5/2015 8:24:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

It is called Sensus Divinitatis. Calvinists actually believe this.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 9:55:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 7:33:01 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 7:24:08 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:55:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

You appear to be stumped with my first post. Should you have prepared better?

Why don't you read what a Christian member PGA had to say about seeing, clouds and heavens. According to him seeing is not seeing physical things and clouds and heavens are not to be taken literally. In post# 426
http://www.debate.org......

PGA wrote: "You see the word "see" and you automatically picture a physical coming. The term can also mean understanding. If you told me that your grandmother lived in Timbuktu I could say I see, meaning I understand. All Israel understood who He was, the one they had put to death, in AD 70. Jesus said to the High Priest in Matthew 26:

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

When you understand how they thought of the term "clouds of heaven" by referencing the term in the OT it takes on an entirely different meaning from the way most literalists take it to mean - a physical coming."

Your first post? Is this it? all of the scripture about clouds, heaven, and Jesus coming. I was kinda stumped regarding the relevance. Should I have been better prepared? I stumbled on this websight looking for what people were saying about the clerk from KY. Saw some interesting conversations thought I would join. I have thought about this analogy for a long time, just wanted to put it out there for all of the critics. I'm very interested in how they will put holes in it or make it into something it's not.

Christians don't do well with God and clouds. It just clouds their judgement.

lol
GraciePearl
Posts: 19
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9/5/2015 10:00:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 7:34:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

Then, without scientific explanations and a description of God, your analogy fails and is utterly useless. A complete waste of time.

That is your opinion and I can respect that, you obviously didn't understand the analogy.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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9/5/2015 10:17:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 10:00:23 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 7:34:32 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 6:47:37 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:34:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?

I can only conclude from your example that you're going to give us all the scientific explanations for God and you're going to tell us what He looks like?

You are incorrect, I'm not going to tell you anything. The analogy was being blind, and being told that the clouds were there.

Then, without scientific explanations and a description of God, your analogy fails and is utterly useless. A complete waste of time.

That is your opinion and I can respect that, you obviously didn't understand the analogy.

LOL. No, clearly the problem is you have no idea how an analogy works.

Analogy - a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

Hence, you failed to make the comparison. A pointless analogy.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/6/2015 12:36:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:58:09 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:05:50 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.

And the some that claim they have are without clue as to how to explain what they have that the others don't. The reason they can't is because what they think they have is no more than self-delusion. : :

I'm sorry that you don't have it. If you did, then you would understand what it is that I have.

Thank you for confirming exactly what I said. The irony.
dee-em
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9/6/2015 12:45:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 6:53:57 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:05:50 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:36:43 PM, b_sorelson wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God. : :

Some have it and some don"t, but those that don"t have it, have no clue what it is that some have.

And the some that claim they have are without clue as to how to explain what they have that the others don't. The reason they can't is because what they think they have is no more than self-delusion.

It doesn't matter how it is explained, as with seeing the cloud, the person with sight cannot prove the cloud is there.
How in the world could you know my experiences in my faith?

How indeed if it is entirely subjective to you. You admit there is nothing objective there. Unlike your analogy where one can point to a range of physical phenomena caused by clouds (shade, rain, snow, thunder and lightning, etc.), you can't point to a single one caused by gods. If you can't explain it or even attempt to explain it, what choice do we have but to dismiss it as delusion?
dee-em
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9/6/2015 12:53:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 6:59:08 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:09:53 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 2:22:32 PM, GraciePearl wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:50:54 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

I was just about to ask if the other dude should be blind in this scenario as well in order to be analogous, but I think you beat me to it. :)

We are ALL born blind to God.

Then how do you claim to see, if you have no functioning eyes? Are you pretending or are you delusional?

I said we were all born blind to God, I didn't say we all stayed that way. Pretending or delusional? lol neither.

If you don't stay that way then you must be able to explain how your non-functioning 'eyes' which can detect the supernatural were made to function again. Please, the floor is yours. If you can do it, we should all be able to do it, right?

Let me make a prediction. If you offer anything at all rather than a glib dismissal, it will be something along the lines of 'earnestly seeking god' or 'opening your heart' or 'allowing the spiritual into your life'. Yet we all know that these are only euphemisms for self-delusion since all faiths operate this way. Surprise me.
dee-em
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9/6/2015 1:28:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 8:24:47 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 9/5/2015 12:27:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2015 11:39:03 AM, GraciePearl wrote:
You were born completely blind. At some point in your life someone tried to explain to you big white puffy clouds in the sky on a sunny afternoon. This person gives you all of the scientific explanations for clouds and even tries to explain what they look like. Even if one of those puffy clouds covers the sun during your conversation, the person could say, see that was a cloud, but in reality they could just be holding a big piece of cardboard over you. How would you know? My point is, he knows that the cloud exists, he sees it, he has all of the scientific data to prove it. At some point you are either going to believe him on faith, continue to say he is telling you a fairy tale, or God is going to give you sight. It doesn't matter what your IQ points are, it doesn't matter your social status, or the amount in your checking account, you are blind and can't see the clouds. Does that mean they don't exist?
It reminds me of a line in the old Hymn "Amazing Grace" " once I was blind but now I see." I read an article written by Helen Keller, she stated that she new from a young age that there was a presence with her, she felt it, she knew it. It wasn't until she was 18 someone told her about God and who Christ was, at that point she knew the name of the presence. Just something to think about.

The problem: a blind person has a defective organ, their eyes. Medical practitioners can verify the nature of the defect. What defective organ do non-believers have?

It is called Sensus Divinitatis. Calvinists actually believe this.

I thought you were joking, but this is actually a real belief.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org...

It contradicts the claim made by the OP'er that we are all born blind to God though (amongst its many, many other problems).