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Why would salvation be based on belief?

joetheripper117
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9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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9/6/2015 2:11:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

1. Salvation is only for the Israelites.

2. Salvation is based on if an Israelite is keeping the laws TMH gave him/her.
uncung
Posts: 3,468
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9/6/2015 8:16:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Salvation bases on both belief and deeds. lack one or both would cause misfortune upon the person in hereafter. Furthermore, religion and salvation are determined by God instead of by men's feeling. If we based on feeling then none worthy to be tortured eternally in hell, because it sound unfair 60 years committing sins but tortured forever in hell.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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9/6/2015 8:40:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe

Salvation from what?

Oh, that's right... inherited moral illness and other problems you first have to believe in.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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9/6/2015 10:54:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe,

It isn't based only on what we believe. The Bible, to prove this point, says, "Satan also believes...." In the book of James it says faith (What we believe) without works (What we do) is dead.

But just as you have to sign a contract to get a loan, or be given a job, Jesus requires your consent to allow you into salvation. We have free will. Jesus needs this signed contract because the first thing He does with a new convert is kill him. Without that consent, the act would be immoral.

...and not what they do in life?

The two reasons God did not want it to be based on what we do were.
1. So that we would not be able to boast that we saved ourselves, and
2. That there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to merit salvation

Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

No one deserves the right except Jesus. So you give Him your approval, He kills you (on the cross) and recreates you (Born again) and adopts you. You then get into Heaven because His righteousness is counted as yours. We get in on His coattails.

So it isn't just a simple, "I believe Jesus exists", it is trusting Him with your very life, so that you save it and not lose it.

Good question.

For brevity I glossed over the concepts and offered no verses,but the details are there.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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9/6/2015 11:02:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

It is a crazy idea, especially as someone as nasty as Hitler, for instance, could in theory make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven, whilst a non believer who has led a good life would go to hell!
Illegalcombatant
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9/6/2015 12:42:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:54:20 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe,

It isn't based only on what we believe. The Bible, to prove this point, says, "Satan also believes...." In the book of James it says faith (What we believe) without works (What we do) is dead.

But just as you have to sign a contract to get a loan, or be given a job, Jesus requires your consent to allow you into salvation. We have free will. Jesus needs this signed contract because the first thing He does with a new convert is kill him. Without that consent, the act would be immoral.

Jesus is killing people......................?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/6/2015 1:59:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

It isn't. It is based on faith, a very different thing entirely in the way the word is used in scripture.

Without real faith, there will be times when you won't trust Jehovah to save you. Especially during the tribulation Christ spoke of in Matthew 24, and the Revelation gives us a few more details of, which will indeed be life threatening by the time we truly need salvation, from Jehovah's anger anyway.

Without real faith you cannot please Jehovah enough for him to decide you deserve saving.

James 2:14-26
ASV(i) 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. 19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

James is speaking of works which show your faith, like:

Staying faithful despite opposition.

Staying faithful even though it may cost you or your loved ones their lives.

Showing real appreciation for what Jehovah has done for us, and continues to do for us.
MadCornishBiker
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9/6/2015 2:00:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 12:42:45 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:54:20 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe,

It isn't based only on what we believe. The Bible, to prove this point, says, "Satan also believes...." In the book of James it says faith (What we believe) without works (What we do) is dead.

But just as you have to sign a contract to get a loan, or be given a job, Jesus requires your consent to allow you into salvation. We have free will. Jesus needs this signed contract because the first thing He does with a new convert is kill him. Without that consent, the act would be immoral.

Jesus is killing people......................?

Nope, Satan is killing people using men to do it more often than not.

Jesus will give them their life back at the proper time.
b_sorelson
Posts: 78
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9/6/2015 2:19:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven? : :

Salvation is the most understood term in the Bible. What do you think salvation means?
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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9/6/2015 4:56:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:54:20 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe,

It isn't based only on what we believe. The Bible, to prove this point, says, "Satan also believes...." In the book of James it says faith (What we believe) without works (What we do) is dead.

But just as you have to sign a contract to get a loan, or be given a job, Jesus requires your consent to allow you into salvation. We have free will. Jesus needs this signed contract because the first thing He does with a new convert is kill him. Without that consent, the act would be immoral.

...and not what they do in life?

The two reasons God did not want it to be based on what we do were.
1. So that we would not be able to boast that we saved ourselves, and
2. That there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to merit salvation

Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

No one deserves the right except Jesus. So you give Him your approval, He kills you (on the cross) and recreates you (Born again) and adopts you. You then get into Heaven because His righteousness is counted as yours. We get in on His coattails.

So it isn't just a simple, "I believe Jesus exists", it is trusting Him with your very life, so that you save it and not lose it.

Good question.

For brevity I glossed over the concepts and offered no verses,but the details are there.

why do you assume that the bible is more than a book?
if you think a book is proof of miracles, then do you believe in spiderman as well?
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/6/2015 5:02:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 8:40:13 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe

Salvation from what?

Oh, that's right... inherited moral illness and other problems you first have to believe in.

From destruction.
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
DavidHenson
Posts: 446
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9/6/2015 5:25:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 2:11:55 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
1. Salvation is only for the Israelites.

That isn't true. It was extended to the gentiles, as foretold to the Israelite.

"Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;"not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, "which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them," is the utterance of Jehovah."
"For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days," is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people."
"And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, "KNOW Jehovah!" for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more."" Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Now through the Christ we have this sort of confidence toward God. 5"Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to reckon anything as issuing from ourselves, but our being adequately qualified issues from God, 6"who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive." - 2 Corinthians 3:4-6

2. Salvation is based on if an Israelite is keeping the laws TMH gave him/her.

TMH? What is that? Also, how could an Israelite keep the laws?

""Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one. Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.
However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:19-25

"Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune
janesix
Posts: 3,491
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9/6/2015 5:33:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You guys can't even agree on what simple terms like "salvation" and "faith" mean. Your religion is so messed up.
Mobutu
Posts: 325
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9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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9/6/2015 6:28:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 5:25:51 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 9/6/2015 2:11:55 AM, TheWORDisLIFE wrote:
1. Salvation is only for the Israelites.

That isn't true. It was extended to the gentiles, as foretold to the Israelite.

"Look! There are days coming," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;"not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, "which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them," is the utterance of Jehovah."
"For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days," is the utterance of Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people."
"And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, "KNOW Jehovah!" for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more."" Jeremiah 31:31-34

"Now through the Christ we have this sort of confidence toward God. 5"Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to reckon anything as issuing from ourselves, but our being adequately qualified issues from God, 6"who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive." - 2 Corinthians 3:4-6

(You kinda sound like that idiot MCB) Who are the Gentiles? The Bible speaks of two different Gentiles, so who are the Gentiles that were given salvation?

2. Salvation is based on if an Israelite is keeping the laws TMH gave him/her.

TMH? What is that? Also, how could an Israelite keep the laws?

TMH = The Most High

How could an Israelite not keep the laws?

""Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one. Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith.
However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:19-25

"Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

1 John 3:4 Whosoeuer committeth sinne, transgresseth also the lawe: for sinne is the transgression of the law.

If sin is the transgression of the law, doesn't that mean that the Israelites are still supposed to keep the law? If the law was done away with, there'd be no sin. You Christians are just dumb.

Maybe you can also explain Matthew 5:18-19?

Matthew 5:17-19

[17] Thinke not that I am come to destroy the lawe or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Has all been fulfilled yet? No, because if all has been fulfilled then we'd be in the kingdom with Christ already. It's common sense.

[18] For verily I say vnto you, Till heauen and earth passe, one iote or one title, shall in no wise passe from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Aren't we still on this earth? Yes. Has heaven passed already? No. So if heaven hasn't passed and we are still on this earth, how are the laws done away with.

[19] Whosoeuer therfore shall breake one of these least commaundements, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen: but whosoeuer shall doe, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdome of heauen.

So even if you break one of the least commandments and teach men that it's okay to break them, you will not get the kingdom. So your lies about the law being done away with is stupid as hell.

Can we murder? rape? steal? etc.....
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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9/6/2015 6:52:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

According to the Bible, eternal life or second death comes on basis is person righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And forgiveness is declared through Jesus. Can person receive it without believing it? Maybe, but that is not all. I think we could think forgiveness exists even if you don"t believe it. However, itself it doesn"t help, if you don"t understand if you have done something wrong and need forgiveness. If you would understand that you have done something wrong and need forgiveness, that should lead you to repent and reject those wrong things. If person continues in sin, forgiveness is not helpful. That is why Jesus taught that people should repent.

More than believing, righteousness is like right understanding and attitude that makes person do what is right, because he understands it is good.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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9/6/2015 7:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 5:02:01 PM, DavidHenson wrote:
At 9/6/2015 8:40:13 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe

Salvation from what?

Oh, that's right... inherited moral illness and other problems you first have to believe in.

From destruction.

You know hearts stop and bodies rot, right? Have you also noticed what happens to memories with age?

Under a Biblical resurrection, humans are not being 'saved' from destruction, any more than a rebuilt house is 'saved' from a house-fire.

At best they are being recovered from backup. And you ought to think through what that actually means. Which version? With what function? What memories? What relationships? And which humans?

The idea of resurrection and heaven is a stupid, incoherent mess whose only appeal is that many people would prefer a stupid, incoherent mess to accepting the reality that the world will proceed just fine without them.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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9/6/2015 10:14:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.

I understand that it says that in the Bible. What I mean is, why would it say that? Why is that justified?
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Mobutu
Posts: 325
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9/6/2015 10:31:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:14:33 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.

I understand that it says that in the Bible. What I mean is, why would it say that? Why is that justified
Because our lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that our sins could be forgiven by The Lord.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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9/6/2015 10:40:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:31:34 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:14:33 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.

I understand that it says that in the Bible. What I mean is, why would it say that? Why is that justified
Because our lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that our sins could be forgiven by The Lord.

But why? Why have salvation come from something like belief, and not from good works?
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Mobutu
Posts: 325
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9/6/2015 10:49:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:40:27 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:31:34 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:14:33 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.

I understand that it says that in the Bible. What I mean is, why would it say that? Why is that justified
Because our lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that our sins could be forgiven by The Lord.

But why? Why have salvation come from something like belief, and not from good works?

Because God has ordained it to be so it is thus so.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?
joetheripper117
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9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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9/6/2015 11:34:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 10:49:24 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:40:27 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:31:34 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 10:14:33 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 6:07:21 PM, Mobutu wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Because the Holy Bible teaches that the name of Jesus Christ is the only one by which Salvation may be attained.

I understand that it says that in the Bible. What I mean is, why would it say that? Why is that justified
Because our lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that our sins could be forgiven by The Lord.

But why? Why have salvation come from something like belief, and not from good works?

Because God has ordained it to be so it is thus so.

I understand that you believe that. I am curious WHY you think your god would do that.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/6/2015 11:35:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.

I respectfully disagree. Why would you act in conflict with your beliefs?
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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9/7/2015 12:35:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/6/2015 11:35:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.

I respectfully disagree. Why would you act in conflict with your beliefs?

I say that someone's beliefs would influence their actions, but they do not dictate them completely. People always go against their own personal convictions for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they need to screw over a coworker to get ahead in their company. Maybe they are pro life, but get an abortion because they think that having a child will ruin their life.

My point is, people will sometimes go against their own personal beliefs; and because of this, I believe that it is what a person does that defines their character, and not what beliefs they hold.
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/7/2015 12:37:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/7/2015 12:35:09 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:35:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.

I respectfully disagree. Why would you act in conflict with your beliefs?

I say that someone's beliefs would influence their actions, but they do not dictate them completely. People always go against their own personal convictions for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they need to screw over a coworker to get ahead in their company. Maybe they are pro life, but get an abortion because they think that having a child will ruin their life.

Their still using their beliefs in regards to their risk reward ratio belief and pursuing that. The abortion person is using risk and reward as a determiner for their actions, but still basing their action off of belief.

My point is, people will sometimes go against their own personal beliefs; and because of this, I believe that it is what a person does that defines their character, and not what beliefs they hold.
joetheripper117
Posts: 284
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9/7/2015 1:20:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/7/2015 12:37:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/7/2015 12:35:09 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:35:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.

I respectfully disagree. Why would you act in conflict with your beliefs?

I say that someone's beliefs would influence their actions, but they do not dictate them completely. People always go against their own personal convictions for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they need to screw over a coworker to get ahead in their company. Maybe they are pro life, but get an abortion because they think that having a child will ruin their life.

Their still using their beliefs in regards to their risk reward ratio belief and pursuing that. The abortion person is using risk and reward as a determiner for their actions, but still basing their action off of belief.

My point is, people will sometimes go against their own personal beliefs; and because of this, I believe that it is what a person does that defines their character, and not what beliefs they hold.

I can see your point there, you think that in my examples, their choices must have been based upon other beliefs. Am I correct?
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out."
-Richard Dawkins
"The onus is on you to say why; the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."
-Richard Dawkins
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/7/2015 2:08:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/7/2015 1:20:03 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/7/2015 12:37:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/7/2015 12:35:09 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:35:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:33:00 PM, joetheripper117 wrote:
At 9/6/2015 11:30:21 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/6/2015 1:29:24 AM, joetheripper117 wrote:
Why would whether an individual goes to heaven or hell be determined by what they believe, and not what they do in life? Why would belief in Jesus(or any other religious figure) make any difference in whether or not a person deserves the right to go to heaven?

Wouldn't beliefs, dictate actions?

Beliefs can influence actions, but I do not think that a person's belief on any thing would always cause them to act in a manner that seems to correlate with that belief.

I respectfully disagree. Why would you act in conflict with your beliefs?

I say that someone's beliefs would influence their actions, but they do not dictate them completely. People always go against their own personal convictions for a multitude of reasons. Maybe they need to screw over a coworker to get ahead in their company. Maybe they are pro life, but get an abortion because they think that having a child will ruin their life.

Their still using their beliefs in regards to their risk reward ratio belief and pursuing that. The abortion person is using risk and reward as a determiner for their actions, but still basing their action off of belief.

My point is, people will sometimes go against their own personal beliefs; and because of this, I believe that it is what a person does that defines their character, and not what beliefs they hold.

I can see your point there, you think that in my examples, their choices must have been based upon other beliefs. Am I correct?

Yes, you even stated the beliefs. Beliefs that had to do with how they calculated the risk and reward of each action.