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If God is so good...

TBR
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9/8/2015 6:31:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Well, look. Christians (or others) will come alone in a bit to explain why, but I have my own thing as an atheist.

Lets say there is a God, and "bad" stuff happens. We, limited humans, see and describe this as "bad". There is no good scale but the one we know. Life without a god could be infinitely worse, we just have no reference for the scale.

In other words, how do we know that the amount of suffering in the world isn't near perfection? In a world where a broken bone may be "tragic" or where another where people are routinely sucked through a bone crushing straw like mouth of the "human crushing aliens"?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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9/8/2015 6:41:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A lot of human suffering is our own doing. So maybe we ought to be asking ourselves why we let these things happen.

Also, suffering is a relative experience. We recognize it only in relation to it's opposite. And if we experienced neither suffering nor pleasure, what point would there be to existing at all?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 6:41:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:31:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Well, look. Christians (or others) will come alone in a bit to explain why, but I have my own thing as an atheist.

Lets say there is a God, and "bad" stuff happens. We, limited humans, see and describe this as "bad". There is no good scale but the one we know. Life without a god could be infinitely worse, we just have no reference for the scale.

In other words, how do we know that the amount of suffering in the world isn't near perfection? In a world where a broken bone may be "tragic" or where another where people are routinely sucked through a bone crushing straw like mouth of the "human crushing aliens"?

Are you serious? 'Near perfection' with literally hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions barely scraping by, surviving on trash and just enough to keep their meager bodies functional? The horrors of what ISIS does to those it captures, all in the name of their religion? Innocents like this child dying from a fiery crash because an idiot that can't control himself decides to put everyone's life in danger by driving high and texting? ALL OF THIS SENSELESS DEATH AND SUFFERING? NEAR PERFECT?

Maybe you should have the same 'near perfect' life these people do. Maybe you'll get a new perspective on just what your 'near perfect' is.
dhardage
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9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 6:44:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:41:06 PM, PureX wrote:
A lot of human suffering is our own doing. So maybe we ought to be asking ourselves why we let these things happen.

Also, suffering is a relative experience. We recognize it only in relation to it's opposite. And if we experienced neither suffering nor pleasure, what point would there be to existing at all?

What kind of person are you? Do you really think it's necessary to kill an innocent child and her parents in such a gruesome way JUST TO MAKE A POINT? I really don't get people sometimes, justifying unnecessary pain and suffering like this.
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 6:48:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

Bull hockey. That child and her parents had no part in this, the a**hole who killed them was druggie and couldn't stop texting and driving. He wasn't even supposed to be there. What happened to their free will, to their 'choice' here? That's the most ridiculous cop out you can utter.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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9/8/2015 6:48:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.

No it is saying that you do not know everything, so trust in God who does know everything.

Then again atheists on this site apparently do not have the ability to trust, do not believe that good can come through suffering, and do not believe that actions have consequences.
Hawlucha
Posts: 20
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9/8/2015 6:51:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Assuming God or any other deity exists. If He does not exist, then question Him for the tragedy of Man? If Man kills his brother and kin, should not Man be blamed and sentenced?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,669
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9/8/2015 6:53:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:48:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.

No it is saying that you do not know everything, so trust in God who does know everything.

Given that, I believe that we lack the capacity to deem Him or His actions "good", just the same.

Then again atheists on this site apparently do not have the ability to trust, do not believe that good can come through suffering, and do not believe that actions have consequences.
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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9/8/2015 6:53:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:48:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

Bull hockey. That child and her parents had no part in this, the a**hole who killed them was druggie and couldn't stop texting and driving. He wasn't even supposed to be there. What happened to their free will, to their 'choice' here? That's the most ridiculous cop out you can utter.

God obviously doesn't step in. He appears to let things happen on their own. I never said God was "good". I don't know the nature of God,and no one else can claim to either.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 6:57:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:48:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.

No it is saying that you do not know everything, so trust in God who does know everything.

No, it's not. Not only that, we know that God had no real reason except to show his supposed fallen angel just how good a guy Job was. If God genuinely was God, he wouldn't feel the need to prove ANYTHING to ANYONE. He wouldn't be that insecure.

Then again atheists on this site apparently do not have the ability to trust, do not believe that good can come through suffering, and do not believe that actions have consequences.

Tell you what. Go get rear ended by a texting crankhead, get killed when your car bursts into flame, and then explain WHAT GOOD CAME FROM IT, ok? You're all pomposity and self-righteousness until it happens to you.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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9/8/2015 6:57:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:53:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:48:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.

No it is saying that you do not know everything, so trust in God who does know everything.

Given that, I believe that we lack the capacity to deem Him or His actions "good", just the same.

Except that we also know that man is made in God's image. Thus since we have an innate desire for love, truth, justice, etc... we know that these are attributes perfected within God. So unless love, truth, justice, etc... are evil we, know God is good.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 6:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:51:47 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
Assuming God or any other deity exists. If He does not exist, then question Him for the tragedy of Man? If Man kills his brother and kin, should not Man be blamed and sentenced?

Absolutely. The other driver should be tried for negligent homicide, three counts.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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9/8/2015 7:00:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:53:47 PM, janesix wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:48:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

Bull hockey. That child and her parents had no part in this, the a**hole who killed them was druggie and couldn't stop texting and driving. He wasn't even supposed to be there. What happened to their free will, to their 'choice' here? That's the most ridiculous cop out you can utter.

God obviously doesn't step in. He appears to let things happen on their own. I never said God was "good". I don't know the nature of God,and no one else can claim to either.

Bull. Almost every Christian sect claims to know what God wants and that he is the very definition of Good and Love. Neither of those qualities was demonstrated here.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,669
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9/8/2015 7:01:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:51:47 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
Assuming God or any other deity exists. If He does not exist, then question Him for the tragedy of Man? If Man kills his brother and kin, should not Man be blamed and sentenced?

This implies that God looks at mankind in a limited sense: as a singular entity. An all-powerful/knowing God would have sight for the individual, not the general. God would have to have deliberately decided to let that not-even-1-year-old die in that crash.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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9/8/2015 7:01:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

I found this comment from their family members to be disturbing:

"They were a happy and beautiful family and God had other plans for them, and needed more angels," the page said.

If God needs angels so badly, why does he get them by killing people in fiery crashes by meth heads, who walk away with minor injuries?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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9/8/2015 7:03:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 7:00:06 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:53:47 PM, janesix wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:48:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

Bull hockey. That child and her parents had no part in this, the a**hole who killed them was druggie and couldn't stop texting and driving. He wasn't even supposed to be there. What happened to their free will, to their 'choice' here? That's the most ridiculous cop out you can utter.

God obviously doesn't step in. He appears to let things happen on their own. I never said God was "good". I don't know the nature of God,and no one else can claim to either.

Bull. Almost every Christian sect claims to know what God wants and that he is the very definition of Good and Love. Neither of those qualities was demonstrated here.

I realize that. But I am not a Christian. I don't think "God is Love". God obviously build a harsh world for some reason. I don't claim to know the reason.
Hawlucha
Posts: 20
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9/8/2015 7:03:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:58:33 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:51:47 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
Assuming God or any other deity exists. If He does not exist, then question Him for the tragedy of Man? If Man kills his brother and kin, should not Man be blamed and sentenced?

Absolutely. The other driver should be tried for negligent homicide, three counts.

But why include God? Why use Him as a bogeyman for the tragedies of others? Guilt by association? Racking up views on your site statistics? Or did you interpret the relatives messages that God wanted Angels in Heaven on the article wrongly? This isn't even worthy for a religious debate; you're using the deaths of people just to expound on a topic that others have pressed on. Shame on you.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/8/2015 7:03:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lets say there is a God, and "bad" stuff happens. We, limited humans, see and describe this as "bad". There is no good scale but the one we know. Life without a god could be infinitely worse, we just have no reference for the scale.

In other words, how do we know that the amount of suffering in the world isn't near perfection? In a world where a broken bone may be "tragic" or where another where people are routinely sucked through a bone crushing straw like mouth of the "human crushing aliens"?

Are you serious? 'Near perfection' with literally hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions barely scraping by, surviving on trash and just enough to keep their meager bodies functional? The horrors of what ISIS does to those it captures, all in the name of their religion? Innocents like this child dying from a fiery crash because an idiot that can't control himself decides to put everyone's life in danger by driving high and texting? ALL OF THIS SENSELESS DEATH AND SUFFERING? NEAR PERFECT?

Maybe you should have the same 'near perfect' life these people do. Maybe you'll get a new perspective on just what your 'near perfect' is.

Lack of imagination does not make it not so. The world could be just terrible. All misery and suffering. From the moment of birth till your death, pain and suffering. It is all just based on experiences. Again, in another world, someone other than me suffering could be perfect, right? I don't have to care about other people, I just do. So, if my life is free from pain and suffering - life could be perfect.

Forwarding this argument against a god is full of holes. God may be indifferent, I don't know. It could be incapable of direct intervention, or simply have a policy. It does nothing to disprove the existence.
dhardage
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9/8/2015 7:05:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 7:03:05 PM, janesix wrote:
At 9/8/2015 7:00:06 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:53:47 PM, janesix wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:48:14 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:44:11 PM, janesix wrote:
I don't know, but I ponder this often. Humans are the most altruistic animals, but also the most evil and destructive. I don't know why God made us this way, or why there is so much suffering in nature.

We were given free will, and this is what we've done with it. Maybe we will learn from our mistakes.

Bull hockey. That child and her parents had no part in this, the a**hole who killed them was druggie and couldn't stop texting and driving. He wasn't even supposed to be there. What happened to their free will, to their 'choice' here? That's the most ridiculous cop out you can utter.

God obviously doesn't step in. He appears to let things happen on their own. I never said God was "good". I don't know the nature of God,and no one else can claim to either.

Bull. Almost every Christian sect claims to know what God wants and that he is the very definition of Good and Love. Neither of those qualities was demonstrated here.

I realize that. But I am not a Christian. I don't think "God is Love". God obviously build a harsh world for some reason. I don't claim to know the reason.

At least your honest and don't claim to know such things. There are too many who do make that claim and then defend it against all common sense and decency.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/8/2015 7:05:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"They were a happy and beautiful family and God had other plans for them, and needed more angels," the page said.

If God needs angels so badly, why does he get them by killing people in fiery crashes by meth heads, who walk away with minor injuries?

I hate the "God needs angels" more than I hate tape-worms.
TheWORDisLIFE
Posts: 1,071
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9/8/2015 7:06:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

For one, they were Israelites, wicked Israelites; meaning they were not keeping the commandments of TMH God. God is getting tired of seeing HIS people making a fool of themselves and not obeying HIS word, as a result, HE killed them.

1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth and maketh aliue, he bringeth downe to the graue, and bringeth vp.

But they will be regenerated back to this earth.
dhardage
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9/8/2015 7:07:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 7:03:40 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:58:33 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:51:47 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
Assuming God or any other deity exists. If He does not exist, then question Him for the tragedy of Man? If Man kills his brother and kin, should not Man be blamed and sentenced?

Absolutely. The other driver should be tried for negligent homicide, three counts.

But why include God? Why use Him as a bogeyman for the tragedies of others? Guilt by association? Racking up views on your site statistics? Or did you interpret the relatives messages that God wanted Angels in Heaven on the article wrongly? This isn't even worthy for a religious debate; you're using the deaths of people just to expound on a topic that others have pressed on. Shame on you.

I'm pointing out the fallacious beliefs by so many so-called loving Christians that their deity is omnibenevolent and watching over everyone. "Jesus loves the little children" indeed. I did not look at the family website and I would never say anything like this to a grieving family. As for shame, reserve that for the jacka**es who justify their God allowing such things to occur.
Chaosism
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9/8/2015 7:08:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:57:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Except that we also know that man is made in God's image. Thus since we have an innate desire for love, truth, justice, etc... we know that these are attributes perfected within God. So unless love, truth, justice, etc... are evil we, know God is good.

God still created a world with the opposite attributes, as well, and people that are drawn to those. Of all of the people I would call good in this world, I very strongly doubt any of them would place mass-murderers in the world if they were the Creator.

In short, nothing in the world exists without God. He is responsible for every single aspect of it. And since our judgment is absolutely limited to the perception of our world (as opposed to that which He excluded from it), we have not the capacity to truly judge the character of God.
TBR
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9/8/2015 7:09:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For one, they were Israelites, wicked Israelites; meaning they were not keeping the commandments of TMH God. God is getting tired of seeing HIS people making a fool of themselves and not obeying HIS word, as a result, HE killed them.

1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth and maketh aliue, he bringeth downe to the graue, and bringeth vp.

But they will be regenerated back to this earth.

See, that's the Christian response you are looking for.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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9/8/2015 7:09:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 6:57:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:48:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:42:52 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:39:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 6:25:40 PM, dhardage wrote:
..why does he let stuff like this happen?

http://www.msn.com...

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

In the end we cannot know everything. God gives Job the answer:

"Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

"Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,


Basically, I made you so I can do anything I want with you and you should just shut up and deal with it. I'm powerful so I have license to do whatever I want whenever I want and however I want. Yeah, that's a loving God all right.

No it is saying that you do not know everything, so trust in God who does know everything.

No, it's not. Not only that, we know that God had no real reason except to show his supposed fallen angel just how good a guy Job was. If God genuinely was God, he wouldn't feel the need to prove ANYTHING to ANYONE. He wouldn't be that insecure.

Except that we know from elsewhere that God loves us and desires an intimate relationship with us. Thus, if our suffering deepens that relationship then it is a good thing. It is through Job's suffering that he came to understand these truths.

Then again atheists on this site apparently do not have the ability to trust, do not believe that good can come through suffering, and do not believe that actions have consequences.

Tell you what. Go get rear ended by a texting crankhead, get killed when your car bursts into flame, and then explain WHAT GOOD CAME FROM IT, ok? You're all pomposity and self-righteousness until it happens to you.

Lol. Atheists get indignant over God not preventing suffering. How about the deaths of 6 million Jews in concentration camps? How about starving children? Sin has consequences, so does virtue and sacrifice. Suffering exists because of sin. And you know what sucks? Most of the time those who suffer the most are not the ones who sinned.

You know what? If God killed all those who are guilty of sin, none of us would be here.
dhardage
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9/8/2015 7:09:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 7:03:43 PM, TBR wrote:
Lets say there is a God, and "bad" stuff happens. We, limited humans, see and describe this as "bad". There is no good scale but the one we know. Life without a god could be infinitely worse, we just have no reference for the scale.

In other words, how do we know that the amount of suffering in the world isn't near perfection? In a world where a broken bone may be "tragic" or where another where people are routinely sucked through a bone crushing straw like mouth of the "human crushing aliens"?

Are you serious? 'Near perfection' with literally hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions barely scraping by, surviving on trash and just enough to keep their meager bodies functional? The horrors of what ISIS does to those it captures, all in the name of their religion? Innocents like this child dying from a fiery crash because an idiot that can't control himself decides to put everyone's life in danger by driving high and texting? ALL OF THIS SENSELESS DEATH AND SUFFERING? NEAR PERFECT?

Maybe you should have the same 'near perfect' life these people do. Maybe you'll get a new perspective on just what your 'near perfect' is.

Lack of imagination does not make it not so. The world could be just terrible. All misery and suffering. From the moment of birth till your death, pain and suffering. It is all just based on experiences. Again, in another world, someone other than me suffering could be perfect, right? I don't have to care about other people, I just do. So, if my life is free from pain and suffering - life could be perfect.

Just because it could be worse doesn't make bad things better. That's a poor reason to justify unnecessary suffering.

Forwarding this argument against a god is full of holes. God may be indifferent, I don't know. It could be incapable of direct intervention, or simply have a policy. It does nothing to disprove the existence.

It disproves that the Christian God, so often identified and described as 'loving all of his children' is no such thing. Note, I said if God is so good, not if God exists. Different argument all together.