Total Posts:70|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Perfect/Imperfect

dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?
one_love
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 9:34:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not? : :

God's Tree of the knowledge of good and evil has confused man ever since he started experiencing it. The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil has kept man from knowing what the Tree of Life is all about.

The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't look like a perfect creation but this was meant to be until all God's people wake up in the New Heaven and Earth and start experiencing the Tree of Life without knowing the contrast of good and evil, which, by the way, are only subjective words. There is no definition of good or evil. They were meant to confuse his people until the next age or at least until some of his chosen people became aware of the Tree of Life.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 9:36:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:31:11 PM, janesix wrote:
Maybe God isn't perfect.

That is one possibility, but I think most Abrahamic theists would not agree.
one_love
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 10:16:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:36:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:31:11 PM, janesix wrote:
Maybe God isn't perfect.

That is one possibility, but I think most Abrahamic theists would not agree. : :

Religious people ( theists ) are liars who have no idea who God is. They weren't used by God to testify to His knowledge and learn their true created existence. They build false gods with their human hands and worship them instead along with a false deity they believe is the real god. The first gods they believed in came from the night sky in the form of constellations where they got their ideas of building shapes and shapes for the characters of their written languages and mathematics.

Only God's prophets and saints testified to His Word in written and spoken form. Then God chose believers who were put in the path of His saints who preached the gospel to them. The gospel is where they hear about the past, present delusion and the future. They can also learn how God created everything too.

God told His people to listen to His voice and obey His commandments. Otherwise, they will remain confused and frustrated throughout their lives in this age. They will also die without knowing about God's future plans for them.

Deuteronomy 28
15: "But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
16: Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
17: Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.
18: cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock.
19: Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20: "the Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me.
21: The Lord will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
22: The Lord will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until your perish.
23: And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron.
24: The Lord will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,293
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 10:23:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

What? Angry that you're not God?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 10:25:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Who says any of these peepz are not perfectly what they need to be? What is the answer to absolute perfection? That is subjective through the eyes of the observer. In essence, everyone is perfect.
TurleDoveSammie
Posts: 298
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though.
one_love
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2015 10:35:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though. : :

You must have been taught by those heathens called Christians. They don't know how God created everything or what His plan is for His creation.
TurleDoveSammie
Posts: 298
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 12:18:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:35:01 PM, one_love wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though. : :

You must have been taught by those heathens called Christians. They don't know how God created everything or what His plan is for His creation.

LOL intriguing response. God created everything by the Word of His Mouth. Simple.
And His plan is just to have all things bring Him glory.
one_love
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 12:24:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/9/2015 12:18:41 AM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:35:01 PM, one_love wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though. : :

You must have been taught by those heathens called Christians. They don't know how God created everything or what His plan is for His creation.

LOL intriguing response. God created everything by the Word of His Mouth. Simple.
And His plan is just to have all things bring Him glory. : :

His plan is to run His program called Eternal Life forever. We are only characters in this program but whatever you can imagine as possible experiences we will have in the next age is possible with God's computing language that we know as waves today.

This computing language is much more sophisticated than the computing binary code that He taught His people to use in His program.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 1:25:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:23:40 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

What? Angry that you're not God?

Why don't you just answer the question, if you can, and not try to divert the conversation with irrelevancies?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 1:27:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:25:57 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Who says any of these peepz are not perfectly what they need to be? What is the answer to absolute perfection? That is subjective through the eyes of the observer. In essence, everyone is perfect.

Perfection means lack of flaws. A perfect human in God's eyes would have to be perfectly obedient. The humans he created were not. His Angels would also have to be free of flaws, sin being a major flaw for a servant of God and Pride being one of the seven deadly sins. Nothing this God has supposedly made has shown any sign of perfection.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 1:29:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

God created everything, according to the Christian holy book. If he'd done a perfect job, we'd still be living in the Garden. The imperfection of sin and disobedience and excess pride demonstrate that nothing created by this omniscient, omnipotent being is perfect.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though.
Serato
Posts: 743
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 3:06:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 10:35:01 PM, one_love wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:29:46 PM, TurleDoveSammie wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

God didnt create Satan, Satan became as he is because he was jealous of God. And the demons are not followers of Satan but demonic things that were created to handle with Satan, but they found not only was he worth torturing but humans as well.

Humans are not necessarily bad, but at the same time we are in the sense of our nature to do evil do to the fallenness of the beginning of time. Just like Adam and Eve had a choice so do we in making the decisions we make. We either choose to deny our nature or to follow it thats what makes us evil and wicked sinners. Our nature to commit crime is what drives us to sinfulness as well as our desire to, but if we desired to not follow our nature of doing evil we may be almost perfect. More blameless than perfect though. : :

You must have been taught by those heathens called Christians. They don't know how God created everything or what His plan is for His creation.

And neither do you or anyone. Yet you watch a couple of YouTube videos and create some posts, and what? this qualifies you as an expert of the universe and a Saint? It's not just sad, but I find you to be particularly insulting to be so brazen to refer yourself as a Saint. Mother Teresa was a Saint. You're simply delusional. Move to Calcutta and live a life helping the poor and earn the title.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 8:17:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

No. Of course perfect being can create imperfect being, why not?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 8:44:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/9/2015 8:17:29 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

No. Of course perfect being can create imperfect being, why not?

If his creations are imperfect that implies that the creator was not perfect or he intentionally created imperfection just so he could punish his creations for their lack of perfection. Is he imperfect or simply sadistic and cruel?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2015 11:37:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/9/2015 1:27:31 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:25:57 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Who says any of these peepz are not perfectly what they need to be? What is the answer to absolute perfection? That is subjective through the eyes of the observer. In essence, everyone is perfect.

Perfection means lack of flaws. A perfect human in God's eyes would have to be perfectly obedient. The humans he created were not. His Angels would also have to be free of flaws, sin being a major flaw for a servant of God and Pride being one of the seven deadly sins. Nothing this God has supposedly made has shown any sign of perfection.

Again ... there is no absolute perfection. What are flaws? You may see them as one thing and another as beauty/perfection. "Perfectly obedient to what"? His laws? Well, i consider myself as perfect in that regard. I have been following the laws of good no matter what temptations have been put in front of me. Is my mind perfect; no? But, once again, that is when i compare. I would say my mind is perfect to me. Pride? How are you looking at this word? ... i do not think confidence is pride. I think Pride fails humility, in which case i would say it can be viewed negative. So, of course i have pride bc i am humble in view of it. Idk, i can flip everything you say around to reach perfection when looking through my own eyes. Which brings me to my own belief. You are the most powerful when you become the most self - aware (perfection). This follows the same logic you presented to be seen as perfect.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 1:31:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/9/2015 11:37:30 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/9/2015 1:27:31 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/8/2015 10:25:57 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Who says any of these peepz are not perfectly what they need to be? What is the answer to absolute perfection? That is subjective through the eyes of the observer. In essence, everyone is perfect.

Perfection means lack of flaws. A perfect human in God's eyes would have to be perfectly obedient. The humans he created were not. His Angels would also have to be free of flaws, sin being a major flaw for a servant of God and Pride being one of the seven deadly sins. Nothing this God has supposedly made has shown any sign of perfection.

Again ... there is no absolute perfection.

Is your God not supposed to be perfect? Or did I miss something back when I was a Baptist?

What are flaws? You may see them as one thing and another as beauty/perfection.

Really? You're going to strawman like that?

"Perfectly obedient to what"? His laws? Well, i consider myself as perfect in that regard. I have been following the laws of good no matter what temptations have been put in front of me.

Good for you but this is about the original sinners, Adam and Eve, supposedly creations of a perfect being that could not obey an order because a talking snake (Satan by some later interpretations of scripture) told them to. That's not perfectly obedient and decidedly a flaw in them if God wanted them to be obedient. There's a thought., Maybe God didn't want them to be obedient so they would sin and he could entertain himself watching humankind try to live down the horrible sin of eating of the tree and continually fail for a few dozen centuries.

Is my mind perfect; no? But, once again, that is when i compare. I would say my mind is perfect to me.

How so?

Pride? How are you looking at this word? ... i do not think confidence is pride. I think Pride fails humility, in which case i would say it can be viewed negative. So, of course i have pride bc i am humble in view of it.

That's a totally self-contradictory phrase. I'm proud because I'm humble?

Idk, i can flip everything you say around to reach perfection when looking through my own eyes.

Only by making statements that make no sense.

Which brings me to my own belief. You are the most powerful when you become the most self - aware (perfection).

Self awareness is not perfection. I am fully self aware and that, in turn, makes me aware of all my imperfections. I work to overcome them but they don't just go away because I know of them.

This follows the same logic you presented to be seen as perfect.

Once again, perfection means no flaws or irregularities. Since we are discussing human beings supposedly created by a perfect divine being, anytime these being deviate from their creator's design or plan, they would be considered imperfect. Satan rebelled against God. Unless God intended for that to happen Satan was imperfect. Adam and Eve both disobeyed God. Unless he intended for that to happen, they were also imperfect. The alternative is that God meant for it all to happen so he is the ultimate author of all the sin and suffering of the race of beings he created. So which is it? Is God truly perfect and perfectly good or did he intentionally bring about all the evil and misery that the human race suffers on a daily basis?
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 1:43:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

If the Biblical description of the deity had any basis in fact, it is far from perfect, Satan could be no worse.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 1:44:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 1:43:37 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

If the Biblical description of the deity had any basis in fact, it is far from perfect, Satan could be no worse.

I tend to agree but most Christian theists do not. That is the reason for the query. Not many willing to engage thus far.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 2:19:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Is this argument sound?

1) If a being is perfect, then it cannot improve or gain in any way.
2) The possession of unfulfilled desire or need indicates that there is something more to be had than what is currently had.
3) Action necessitates desire; an action is an effort to fulfill a desire or need.
4) God created the universe, which is an action.
5) God took action, which indicates that desire is possessed.
6) God has unfulfilled desire, so improvement or gain is possible.
7) Improvement is possible for God, so God is not a perfect being.

1) P > ~I
2) D > I
3) A > D
4) A
5) D . . . . . (3,4, Modus Ponens)
6) I . . . . . . (2,5, Modus Ponens)
6.5) ~~I . . (6, Double Negative)
7) ~P . . . . (1,6.5, Modus Tollens)
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 2:19:39 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/8/2015 9:25:37 PM, dhardage wrote:
Question: How can a perfect being (God, in this instance) make an imperfect creation not once but twice? (Satan and his followers and human beings)? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms, would it not?

Is this argument sound?

1) If a being is perfect, then it cannot improve or gain in any way.
2) The possession of unfulfilled desire or need indicates that there is something more to be had than what is currently had.
3) Action necessitates desire; an action is an effort to fulfill a desire or need.
4) God created the universe, which is an action.
5) God took action, which indicates that desire is possessed.
6) God has unfulfilled desire, so improvement or gain is possible.
7) Improvement is possible for God, so God is not a perfect being.

1) P > ~I
2) D > I
3) A > D
4) A
5) D . . . . . (3,4, Modus Ponens)
6) I . . . . . . (2,5, Modus Ponens)
6.5) ~~I . . (6, Double Negative)
7) ~P . . . . (1,6.5, Modus Tollens)

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 3:45:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Because your knowledge of the bible is poor you are trying to use logic to understand the nature of creation. If you had a better grasp of the bible you would have noted Adam and Eve were created perfect. We still see degrees of perfection even to this day. Example. Perfect test scores, perfect 20/20 eyesight, etc. etc.
Even Satan never lied to Eve. He told her she would not die from eating of the tree of inowledge. And she did not die immediately after eating the fruit. But being denied access to the tree of life cause her to become mortal.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but by eating of the forbidden fruit lost their perfection.
God was perfect too. Whatever He said happened accordingly. The cause of your confusion is scriptural ignorance and faulty logic. Check your diet. It must continue a daily dose of mind boggling stupidity.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 4:08:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 3:45:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Because your knowledge of the bible is poor you are trying to use logic to understand the nature of creation. If you had a better grasp of the bible you would have noted Adam and Eve were created perfect. We still see degrees of perfection even to this day. Example. Perfect test scores, perfect 20/20 eyesight, etc. etc.
Even Satan never lied to Eve. He told her she would not die from eating of the tree of inowledge. And she did not die immediately after eating the fruit. But being denied access to the tree of life cause her to become mortal.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but by eating of the forbidden fruit lost their perfection.
God was perfect too. Whatever He said happened accordingly. The cause of your confusion is scriptural ignorance and faulty logic. Check your diet. It must continue a daily dose of mind boggling stupidity.

Once again, if Adam and Eve had been perfectly obedient to their god, they would never have eaten of forbidden fruit. That makes them imperfect by definition. If what they did was foreseen and allowed then they were intentionally created with an imperfect ability to discern what was wrong and obey their creator's instructions. It was a test that they could not pass. The only conclusion, logical conclusion, available is that either God is imperfect or his creations were, which leads one to question his perfection yet again.

As for ignorance, well, you're the superior there, I will admit. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your overwhelmingly inflated ego. Now, if you have more to add, great. If all you're here to do is provide insults and comedy relief, thanks but no thanks. I'd like some real, serious discussion here.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 4:54:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 4:08:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 3:45:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Because your knowledge of the bible is poor you are trying to use logic to understand the nature of creation. If you had a better grasp of the bible you would have noted Adam and Eve were created perfect. We still see degrees of perfection even to this day. Example. Perfect test scores, perfect 20/20 eyesight, etc. etc.
Even Satan never lied to Eve. He told her she would not die from eating of the tree of inowledge. And she did not die immediately after eating the fruit. But being denied access to the tree of life cause her to become mortal.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but by eating of the forbidden fruit lost their perfection.
God was perfect too. Whatever He said happened accordingly. The cause of your confusion is scriptural ignorance and faulty logic. Check your diet. It must continue a daily dose of mind boggling stupidity.

Once again, if Adam and Eve had been perfectly obedient to their god, they would never have eaten of forbidden fruit. That makes them imperfect by definition. If what they did was foreseen and allowed then they were intentionally created with an imperfect ability to discern what was wrong and obey their creator's instructions. It was a test that they could not pass. The only conclusion, logical conclusion, available is that either God is imperfect or his creations were, which leads one to question his perfection yet again.

Since when has curiosity been viewed as an imperfection? It is the ingestion of poison that kills not the curiosity of poison. It is in the eating that cost them their perfection and not their curiosity.
Read your scriptures.

As for ignorance, well, you're the superior there, I will admit. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your overwhelmingly inflated ego. Now, if you have more to add, great. If all you're here to do is provide insults and comedy relief, thanks but no thanks. I'd like some real, serious discussion here.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 5:31:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 4:54:13 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 4:08:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 3:45:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Because your knowledge of the bible is poor you are trying to use logic to understand the nature of creation. If you had a better grasp of the bible you would have noted Adam and Eve were created perfect. We still see degrees of perfection even to this day. Example. Perfect test scores, perfect 20/20 eyesight, etc. etc.
Even Satan never lied to Eve. He told her she would not die from eating of the tree of inowledge. And she did not die immediately after eating the fruit. But being denied access to the tree of life cause her to become mortal.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but by eating of the forbidden fruit lost their perfection.
God was perfect too. Whatever He said happened accordingly. The cause of your confusion is scriptural ignorance and faulty logic. Check your diet. It must continue a daily dose of mind boggling stupidity.

Once again, if Adam and Eve had been perfectly obedient to their god, they would never have eaten of forbidden fruit. That makes them imperfect by definition. If what they did was foreseen and allowed then they were intentionally created with an imperfect ability to discern what was wrong and obey their creator's instructions. It was a test that they could not pass. The only conclusion, logical conclusion, available is that either God is imperfect or his creations were, which leads one to question his perfection yet again.

Since when has curiosity been viewed as an imperfection? It is the ingestion of poison that kills not the curiosity of poison. It is in the eating that cost them their perfection and not their curiosity.
Read your scriptures.

The scriptures say that Eve was tempted to disobey the instructions of her creator and did yield to that temptation. They further state that she in turn tempted Adam and he also yielded. Perfect beings would not yield to temptation particularly if the prohibition came from their creator. You're glossing over the fact that they did indeed eat what had been identified to them as deadly poison. Ever took the word of a talking serpent that it was not, not the act of a perfect being who would not have ingested it until it could be demonstrated to be safe. A perfect being would not have tempted another to share it and also become afflicted. All of these things bespeak imperfection in intellect, among other things. One could argue that they were not accustomed to being lied to but that just leads to further imperfection in their environment, since a deceitful being was allowed to even exist there, one that meant harm to them. Too many instances of either imperfection or malice toward the created beings to just overlook.

As for ignorance, well, you're the superior there, I will admit. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your overwhelmingly inflated ego. Now, if you have more to add, great. If all you're here to do is provide insults and comedy relief, thanks but no thanks. I'd like some real, serious discussion here.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/10/2015 6:40:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/10/2015 5:31:25 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 4:54:13 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 4:08:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 3:45:54 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:42:17 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:40:10 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/10/2015 2:26:34 PM, dhardage wrote:

The logic seems sound but there might be disagreement with your definition of the word perfect.

I'm sure. My use of the term would apply to an objective state of perfection (like a perfect fit puzzle piece, or perfectly circular). I have argued elsewhere that "perfect" means nothing if referring to something subjective. For instance, there can be no perfect-tasting food in any objective sense. This simply renders the ambiguous label of "perfect" meaningless, since God's perfection is subjective.

To illustrate, one can view a perfect God as perfectly forgiving and another can view Him as perfectly just. However, I believe those absolutes are contradictory:

Is a being perfectly forgiving if forgiveness is granted only after justice is administered?
Is a being perfectly just if punishment is given to one who is already forgiven?

Valid points. I'm still waiting for more theists to engage and perhaps we'll get some other viewpoints.
Because your knowledge of the bible is poor you are trying to use logic to understand the nature of creation. If you had a better grasp of the bible you would have noted Adam and Eve were created perfect. We still see degrees of perfection even to this day. Example. Perfect test scores, perfect 20/20 eyesight, etc. etc.
Even Satan never lied to Eve. He told her she would not die from eating of the tree of inowledge. And she did not die immediately after eating the fruit. But being denied access to the tree of life cause her to become mortal.
Adam and Eve were created perfect but by eating of the forbidden fruit lost their perfection.
God was perfect too. Whatever He said happened accordingly. The cause of your confusion is scriptural ignorance and faulty logic. Check your diet. It must continue a daily dose of mind boggling stupidity.

Once again, if Adam and Eve had been perfectly obedient to their god, they would never have eaten of forbidden fruit. That makes them imperfect by definition. If what they did was foreseen and allowed then they were intentionally created with an imperfect ability to discern what was wrong and obey their creator's instructions. It was a test that they could not pass. The only conclusion, logical conclusion, available is that either God is imperfect or his creations were, which leads one to question his perfection yet again.

Since when has curiosity been viewed as an imperfection? It is the ingestion of poison that kills not the curiosity of poison. It is in the eating that cost them their perfection and not their curiosity.
Read your scriptures.

The scriptures say that Eve was tempted to disobey the instructions of her creator and did yield to that temptation. They further state that she in turn tempted Adam and he also yielded. Perfect beings would not yield to temptation particularly if the prohibition came from their creator. You're glossing over the fact that they did indeed eat what had been identified to them as deadly poison. Ever took the word of a talking serpent that it was not, not the act of a perfect being who would not have ingested it until it could be demonstrated to be safe. A perfect being would not have tempted another to share it and also become afflicted. All of these things bespeak imperfection in intellect, among other things. One could argue that they were not accustomed to being lied to but that just leads to further imperfection in their environment, since a deceitful being was allowed to even exist there, one that meant harm to them. Too many instances of either imperfection or malice toward the created beings to just overlook.

As for ignorance, well, you're the superior there, I will admit. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your overwhelmingly inflated ego. Now, if you have more to add, great. If all you're here to do is provide insults and comedy relief, thanks but no thanks. I'd like some real, serious discussion here.

This can all be explained as a misunderstanding. Adam was created first. He was told not to eat of the tree of knowledge. That was before Eve was created. So Eve did not know of such warnings.

Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

When Adam found Eve did not die after eating of the tree of knowledge. He went along. I repeat. Curiosity is not an imperfection.