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For those who say God gives us free will

ken1122
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9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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9/12/2015 3:36:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken

Free will means every one is free to do what they want. It doesn't need religious sense whatsoever.
ken1122
Posts: 464
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9/12/2015 3:52:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:36:57 AM, uncung wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken



Free will means every one is free to do what they want. It doesn't need religious sense whatsoever.

Ken
There are those who believe free will comes from God. Those are the ones I was directing the question to.
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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9/12/2015 4:00:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:52:35 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:36:57 AM, uncung wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken



Free will means every one is free to do what they want. It doesn't need religious sense whatsoever.

Ken
There are those who believe free will comes from God. Those are the ones I was directing the question to.


in religious sense, everything comes from God.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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9/12/2015 4:14:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 4:00:40 AM, uncung wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:52:35 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:36:57 AM, uncung wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken



Free will means every one is free to do what they want. It doesn't need religious sense whatsoever.

Ken
There are those who believe free will comes from God. Those are the ones I was directing the question to.


in religious sense, everything comes from God.

That depends on how you define God.

Life comes from life not from some invisible person with supernatural powers.

Life gives humans a will and choices in some areas as well as no choice in other areas like being born and dying naturally.
Life includes humans who create rules/laws. If humans break rules they pay the price that the humans have designated as a fine for the law breaking.
If humans are prepared to pay the fines or the price of law breaking, they are free to do as they like.
If they are not prepared to pay the price, they are restricted to obeying the human laws.
If they want to obey the laws, they are still doing what they want so there is no problem.
If they do not want to obey the laws they are free to not obey them as long as they are aware of the cost.
Humans are free to obey the law.
Humans are also free break the law but the fines are expensive.

The question is whether breaking the laws is worth the consequences.
ken1122
Posts: 464
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9/12/2015 4:24:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 4:14:52 AM, Skyangel wrote:

That depends on how you define God.

Life comes from life not from some invisible person with supernatural powers.

Life gives humans a will and choices in some areas as well as no choice in other areas like being born and dying naturally.
Life includes humans who create rules/laws. If humans break rules they pay the price that the humans have designated as a fine for the law breaking.
If humans are prepared to pay the fines or the price of law breaking, they are free to do as they like.
If they are not prepared to pay the price, they are restricted to obeying the human laws.
If they want to obey the laws, they are still doing what they want so there is no problem.
If they do not want to obey the laws they are free to not obey them as long as they are aware of the cost.
Humans are free to obey the law.
Humans are also free break the law but the fines are expensive.

The question is whether breaking the laws is worth the consequences.

The law doesn't give freewill, you are only allowed to act within the law; kinda like the robot in the scenario I provided.

Ken
Skyangel
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9/12/2015 5:03:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 4:24:36 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 9/12/2015 4:14:52 AM, Skyangel wrote:

That depends on how you define God.

Life comes from life not from some invisible person with supernatural powers.

Life gives humans a will and choices in some areas as well as no choice in other areas like being born and dying naturally.
Life includes humans who create rules/laws. If humans break rules they pay the price that the humans have designated as a fine for the law breaking.
If humans are prepared to pay the fines or the price of law breaking, they are free to do as they like.
If they are not prepared to pay the price, they are restricted to obeying the human laws.
If they want to obey the laws, they are still doing what they want so there is no problem.
If they do not want to obey the laws they are free to not obey them as long as they are aware of the cost.
Humans are free to obey the law.
Humans are also free break the law but the fines are expensive.

The question is whether breaking the laws is worth the consequences.

The law doesn't give freewill, you are only allowed to act within the law; kinda like the robot in the scenario I provided.

Ken


I never said it does. I said LIFE gives us a free will.
The law has nothing to give. It is only a list of rules which humans give to each other.
Only humans can give humans anything like freedom to do what they want to do or not.
Humans have created the laws to restrict human freedom and protect humans from each other so humans are not free to hurt each other.
Humans also brainwash each other to become "robots" of whatever clubs or cliques they belong to. They are trained to do as their leaders tell them to do and if they do not, they are excommunicated or cast out of the club or punished in whatever ways people find to punish each other.

So who pulls your strings?
Whose music do you dance to ?
ken1122
Posts: 464
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9/12/2015 5:26:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 5:03:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:

I never said it does. I said LIFE gives us a free will.
The law has nothing to give. It is only a list of rules which humans give to each other.
Only humans can give humans anything like freedom to do what they want to do or not.
Humans have created the laws to restrict human freedom and protect humans from each other so humans are not free to hurt each other.
Humans also brainwash each other to become "robots" of whatever clubs or cliques they belong to. They are trained to do as their leaders tell them to do and if they do not, they are excommunicated or cast out of the club or punished in whatever ways people find to punish each other.

I think you make some pretty good points, but there are those who believe free will comes from God.

So who pulls your strings?
Whose music do you dance to ?
The law of the land.

Ken
Sarra
Posts: 288
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9/12/2015 5:41:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken

I'm too tired to answer this thoughtfully (this is a really complicated subject and the simple one-liners do not provide enough context with which to give you peace. I will over the weekend). In essence, free will is an illusion, a lie we tell ourselves. If you have free will, try this one. Try not thinking of anything for 30 seconds.
Skyangel
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9/12/2015 6:58:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 5:26:14 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 9/12/2015 5:03:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:

I never said it does. I said LIFE gives us a free will.
The law has nothing to give. It is only a list of rules which humans give to each other.
Only humans can give humans anything like freedom to do what they want to do or not.
Humans have created the laws to restrict human freedom and protect humans from each other so humans are not free to hurt each other.
Humans also brainwash each other to become "robots" of whatever clubs or cliques they belong to. They are trained to do as their leaders tell them to do and if they do not, they are excommunicated or cast out of the club or punished in whatever ways people find to punish each other.

I think you make some pretty good points, but there are those who believe free will comes from God.

What is God to you?
An invisible supernatural person or a human construct which represents ultimate authority? The human construct obviously exists.
Are humans not the ultimate authority over humans when it comes to human laws?
Other than human laws, life itself is the ultimate authority over life.
Life gives us life and life ultimately takes away our lives.
No supernatural characters do anything for humans. Human fantasies lead the gullible astray into believing supernatural characters exist.

So who pulls your strings?
Whose music do you dance to ?
The law of the land.

Which is made by humans so ultimately humans do. The law of the land is only as powerful as humans make it.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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9/12/2015 7:05:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 5:41:28 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken

I'm too tired to answer this thoughtfully (this is a really complicated subject and the simple one-liners do not provide enough context with which to give you peace. I will over the weekend). In essence, free will is an illusion, a lie we tell ourselves. If you have free will, try this one. Try not thinking of anything for 30 seconds.

Many people don't think without even trying. It takes them all their effort to think of something intelligent. Most just quote the garbage they heard from others and pretend it is intelligent.
Composer
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9/12/2015 7:37:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Supposed God believers have NO freewill!

We know this because IF they did, they would cease sinning immediately, but none ever can, nor did!
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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9/12/2015 7:54:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 7:37:52 AM, Composer wrote:
Supposed God believers have NO freewill!

We know this because IF they did, they would cease sinning immediately, but none ever can, nor did!


They don't want to.
They like their freedom to sin.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/12/2015 11:11:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken

More to the what if the natural inclination of the person in question is to do God's will? That being their (the believer and their patron) desires sync up? After all, that is the ultimate goal of a religion, to make a free will prescribe to an established "objective" morality.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Hawlucha
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9/12/2015 12:41:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God is an analogy for the government promising you liberty and freedom but offers none. You must adhere to THEIR laws, THEIR constitution, THEIR Head of State's orders, etc.

Atheism and anarchy go hand to hand but there's a catch: atheists are cowards who adhere to faux moralities. Anarchists turn paradise into hell with riots and murders. I think I know which one is more awesome :D
FaustianJustice
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9/12/2015 2:28:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 12:41:48 PM, Hawlucha wrote:
God is an analogy for the government promising you liberty and freedom but offers none. You must adhere to THEIR laws, THEIR constitution, THEIR Head of State's orders, etc.

Atheism and anarchy go hand to hand but there's a catch: atheists are cowards who adhere to faux moralities. Anarchists turn paradise into hell with riots and murders. I think I know which one is more awesome :D

" I think I know which one is more awesome :D"

I'm sure you think you do, too.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
witness2
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9/13/2015 4:22:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/12/2015 3:21:33 AM, ken1122 wrote:
Imagine one day I give you a million dollars as a gift, but there is a catch; you can"t spend it. You can"t invest it, you can"t give it to anybody, you can"t even let anybody know you have this money; all you can do with it is keep it. And I tell you, if you spend one penny of this money, I will kill you! Would you consider this a good gift?

Theists often claim God gives everybody free will to serve him or not, but it seems to me, there is a catch; you can"t use it.

If sin is defined as transgressions against the law of God, (doing your will instead of God"s will) then unless your will mirror"s God"s will, you will sin and wind up in Hell when you die; a fate worse than death, if you use this free will God gave you.

So you have God saying, "I am going to give you the gift of free will to do whatever you want, rather than making you a robot and having you do everything I want, but if you don"t do exactly as I want you to do, (your will instead of my will) I am going to send you to Hell to burn forever.

Much like the $1,000,000.00 that you can"t spend, or invest, free will under God"s rules is as useless as the $1,000,000.00 under my rules; because if you use God"s free will and do your will rather than his, you will be damned.

But if you act like a robot and do exactly what God tells you to do then you will be rewarded when you die and you can go to Heaven where you can continue acting like a robot doing everything God wants you to do; doing his will instead of your own.

So what good is free will if you can"t use it? We might as well be robots! Your thoughts??

Ken : :

Most people don't know they're robots. Our Creator created things so perfectly that His people thought they were real. They actually believe they die.