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Science will win...

Freeman
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9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

M-theory, Hawking argues, will render the existence of God superfluous in physics, in much the same way natural selection renders God superfluous in Biology.

At this point, I'm still unsure what "winning" would entail for my side of this issue, but I am left with the ceaseless thought that we are getting closer to "winning".
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/10/2010 3:07:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, they haven't "won" anything

i) They won't "win" Physics, in that, I am near certain.
ii) In biology they didn't win, they just made evolution highly probable, it doesn't prove anything in terms of god.
iii) I might as well ad this - most of Hawking career is simply the controversial disagreement with others and then him later agreeing with the original analogy anyway. Wow, I came up with a theory about black hole radiation, respect me. His awards are undeserved.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/10/2010 3:11:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM, Freeman wrote:
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.":

He's comparing apples to oranges. Things being supernatural are outside of the realm of physics, and therefore not subject to scientific inquiry.

The idea of "winning" or "losing" smacks of nothing more than confirmation bias. What is he "winning" by disproving God? Secondly, he cannot disprove God for the simple fact that if something does not exist, you cannot therefore have positive evidence proving.

You either believe or don't believe.

Hawking is really getting philosophically weak in his old age.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/10/2010 3:18:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
On new age irreligion:
The predisposition to religious belief is an ineradicable part of human behavior. Mankind has produced 100,000 religions. It is an illusion to think that scientific humanism and learning will dispel religious belief. Men would rather believe than know... A kind of Darwinistic survival of the fittest has occurred with religions... The ecological principle called Gause's law holds that competition is maximal between species with identical needs... Even submission to secular religions such as Communism and guru cults involve willing subordination of the individual to the group. Religious practices confer biological advantage. The mechanisms of religion include (1) objectification (the reduction of reality to images and definitions that are easily understood and cannot be refuted), (2) commitment through faith (a kind of tribalism enacted through self-surrender), (3) and myth (the narratives that explain the tribe's favored position on the earth, often incorporating supernatural forces struggling for control, apocalypse, and millennium). The three great religion categories of today are Marxism, traditional religion, and scientific materialism... Though theology is not likely to survive as an independent intellectual discipline, religion will endure for a long time to come and will not be replaced by scientific materialism.

Edward O. Wilson is a leading sociobiologist who happens to be a deist, humanist.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Freeman
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9/10/2010 3:27:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 3:11:49 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM, Freeman wrote:
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.":

He's comparing apples to oranges. Things being supernatural are outside of the realm of physics, and therefore not subject to scientific inquiry.

I didn't think it likely that you would spread this canard .
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/10/2010 3:37:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 3:27:21 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 9/10/2010 3:11:49 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM, Freeman wrote:
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.":

He's comparing apples to oranges. Things being supernatural are outside of the realm of physics, and therefore not subject to scientific inquiry.

I didn't think it likely that you would spread this canard .

He doesn't need to spread it, its what theists believe for the most part.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM, Freeman wrote:
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

M-theory, Hawking argues, will render the existence of God superfluous in physics, in much the same way natural selection renders God superfluous in Biology.

At this point, I'm still unsure what "winning" would entail for my side of this issue, but I am left with the ceaseless thought that we are getting closer to "winning".










Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/10/2010 4:08:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Well one could argue that science is there to explain God's world that he created although that just gets us laughed at by atheists.
Brendan21
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9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.
Brendan21
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9/10/2010 4:11:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:08:37 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Well one could argue that science is there to explain God's world that he created although that just gets us laughed at by atheists.

Exactly. God is Why and science is How (or atleast it was for me when I was Christian).
InsertNameHere
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9/10/2010 4:14:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:11:41 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:08:37 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Well one could argue that science is there to explain God's world that he created although that just gets us laughed at by atheists.

Exactly. God is Why and science is How (or atleast it was for me when I was Christian).

That sounds about right. Just because something is proven to be a certain way because of science it doesn't mean that it's automatically refutes the possibility of God. Like there must be a reason why things are the way they are.

*inb4 I get laughed at*
jharry
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9/10/2010 4:43:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:08:37 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Well one could argue that science is there to explain God's world that he created although that just gets us laughed at by atheists.

Yes I agree. And I also believe that they will continue to win until there is a mere remnant of the Church left on this earth. That's what I believe. SO actually at first I was surprised (never keep up with garbage) until I thought and prayed about it. But agian, that's just me. I'm sure there are those that will disagree.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/10/2010 4:47:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 2:54:17 PM, Freeman wrote:
According to Stephen Hawking, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

M-theory, Hawking argues, will render the existence of God superfluous in physics, in much the same way natural selection renders God superfluous in Biology.

At this point, I'm still unsure what "winning" would entail for my side of this issue, but I am left with the ceaseless thought that we are getting closer to "winning".










Uh...atheists have been saying much the same thing for hundreds of years...I'll take his words with a grain of salt.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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9/10/2010 5:35:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 3:07:05 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
No, they haven't "won" anything

i) They won't "win" Physics, in that, I am near certain.

We are already ahead. We just need a bit more time to tie things up with empirical research.

ii) In biology they didn't win, they just made evolution highly probable, it doesn't prove anything in terms of god.
iii) I might as well ad this - most of Hawking career is simply the controversial disagreement with others and then him later agreeing with the original analogy anyway. Wow, I came up with a theory about black hole radiation, respect me. His awards are undeserved.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
jharry
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9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/10/2010 6:05:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.

Interesting... So non-believers are all selfish and will deteriorate society? I'm a non-believer, and personally, I don't consider myself selfish. In fact, it seems for selfish to me to say, "You don't believe the right thing so you will burn for it." An atheist society would have all this hate that religion causes (no more Christians, Muslims, and Jews killing each other for not believing the 'true' faith). Don't assume athiests are selfish, or that we will some how mess up society.
jharry
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9/10/2010 6:15:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:05:44 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.

Interesting... So non-believers are all selfish and will deteriorate society? I'm a non-believer, and personally, I don't consider myself selfish. In fact, it seems for selfish to me to say, "You don't believe the right thing so you will burn for it." An atheist society would have all this hate that religion causes (no more Christians, Muslims, and Jews killing each other for not believing the 'true' faith). Don't assume athiests are selfish, or that we will some how mess up society.

Ok now C_N. You assume too much. I never said anything directly about atheists, in this thread. I see it in ALL society as a whole. And I never said anything about society being bad because of Atheists. Wow, defensive aint we? I never said anything about burning in Hell because of not believing the right thing either. Do you have a tin foil hat? Not directly at atheists. Society in general.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/10/2010 6:17:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:15:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:05:44 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.

Interesting... So non-believers are all selfish and will deteriorate society? I'm a non-believer, and personally, I don't consider myself selfish. In fact, it seems for selfish to me to say, "You don't believe the right thing so you will burn for it." An atheist society would have all this hate that religion causes (no more Christians, Muslims, and Jews killing each other for not believing the 'true' faith). Don't assume athiests are selfish, or that we will some how mess up society.

Ok now C_N. You assume too much. I never said anything directly about atheists, in this thread. I see it in ALL society as a whole. And I never said anything about society being bad because of Atheists. Wow, defensive aint we? I never said anything about burning in Hell because of not believing the right thing either. Do you have a tin foil hat? Not directly at atheists. Society in general.

Seemed like you were targeting non-believers to me. You even call it "the dark side."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/10/2010 6:19:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yea science for the win! Existence is meaningless, life is an accident, nothing you do can have any value!

W00T W00T!!!!1111

Yea...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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9/10/2010 6:22:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:19:07 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Yea science for the win! Existence is meaningless, life is an accident, nothing you do can have any value!

W00T W00T!!!!1111

Yea...

I've never felt that way for a single day of my life.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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9/10/2010 6:30:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:15:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:05:44 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.

Interesting... So non-believers are all selfish and will deteriorate society? I'm a non-believer, and personally, I don't consider myself selfish. In fact, it seems for selfish to me to say, "You don't believe the right thing so you will burn for it." An atheist society would have all this hate that religion causes (no more Christians, Muslims, and Jews killing each other for not believing the 'true' faith). Don't assume athiests are selfish, or that we will some how mess up society.

Ok now C_N. You assume too much. I never said anything directly about atheists, in this thread. I see it in ALL society as a whole. And I never said anything about society being bad because of Atheists. Wow, defensive aint we? I never said anything about burning in Hell because of not believing the right thing either. Do you have a tin foil hat? Not directly at atheists. Society in general.

But your argument is basically:
1. More and more people will stray away from God
2. Breakdown of society
3. More selfishness and less love

So yes, you are infact equating Atheism and this increased trend of atheism to "more selfishness and less love", and even go as far as to call us the "Dark side".

Yes, society in general. And since society in general, according to you, is getting more and more godless as this trend continues, clearly you are infact attributing this downfall of civilization to atheists.

I wish you would have the balls to say so, instead of twisting and turning your words around.
jharry
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9/10/2010 6:39:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:30:02 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:15:55 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:05:44 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 5:57:26 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:09:50 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 4:05:35 PM, jharry wrote:

Actually, I agree that their winning. This is old old news.

Winning? I don't know about that. Sure more and more young people deny thier parents' faith, but how many more stick with it? Most young adults I know have remained the religion of thier parents. We will see how many of the young people go back to religion when they get older, which is pretty common.

And there will be many many more in the future. Don't get me wrong, this won't be over night. And it won't be because of evolution, the guy in the chair is nothing but a puppet on a string. And another thing, I don't think they are winning because the are right or anything, not that God can't win. But He doesn't control will either, they will win when enough people believe the lies, and not evolution by the way. It's simply a steady break down in society as a whole. Less love more selfishness. It can't be stopped over the long run. No reason to give up hope and join the dark side though, we should fight with all we have, but in the end it is already written.

Interesting... So non-believers are all selfish and will deteriorate society? I'm a non-believer, and personally, I don't consider myself selfish. In fact, it seems for selfish to me to say, "You don't believe the right thing so you will burn for it." An atheist society would have all this hate that religion causes (no more Christians, Muslims, and Jews killing each other for not believing the 'true' faith). Don't assume athiests are selfish, or that we will some how mess up society.

Ok now C_N. You assume too much. I never said anything directly about atheists, in this thread. I see it in ALL society as a whole. And I never said anything about society being bad because of Atheists. Wow, defensive aint we? I never said anything about burning in Hell because of not believing the right thing either. Do you have a tin foil hat? Not directly at atheists. Society in general.

But your argument is basically:
1. More and more people will stray away from God
2. Breakdown of society
3. More selfishness and less love

So yes, you are infact equating Atheism and this increased trend of atheism to "more selfishness and less love", and even go as far as to call us the "Dark side".

Yes, society in general. And since society in general, according to you, is getting more and more godless as this trend continues, clearly you are infact attributing this downfall of civilization to atheists.

I wish you would have the balls to say so, instead of twisting and turning your words around.

Actually no. There are plenty (if not more) religious that are selfish and living as if there is no God. More selfishness and less love. I'm an equal opportunity kind of guy. Have you been to many religious forums or social web sites? Or if you ask them why they are believers, "well, OMG, I'm soooo glad you asked that, well because I like all my friends and they are all believers and uhhhhh I like to be nice and caring and ...........you get the picture.

Or try going to church sometime. There is some of the worst people I have ever met in church. I saw a church that split over what color the carpet was going to be when they remodeled. Most Atheists are at least more open and honest about it. So no, you are wrong.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/10/2010 6:45:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As awesome as it would be for science to "win", that's not gonna happen...ever. Because even if we found science that seemed to be irrefutable, some theists would come up with a way to get around it, or claim that God did it... :/
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/10/2010 6:45:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:43:03 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:41:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
To sum it up simply, both sides have crazy people.

Pretty much lol

Yea, and the best thing to do is to avoid becoming like the crazies whether you're an atheist or a theist.
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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9/10/2010 6:52:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:45:05 PM, annhasle wrote:
As awesome as it would be for science to "win", that's not gonna happen...ever. Because even if we found science that seemed to be irrefutable, some theists would come up with a way to get around it, or claim that God did it... ://

Exactly. To Theists, God is always going to be the Why to the scientific How.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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9/10/2010 6:57:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:52:34 PM, Brendan21 wrote:
At 9/10/2010 6:45:05 PM, annhasle wrote:
As awesome as it would be for science to "win", that's not gonna happen...ever. Because even if we found science that seemed to be irrefutable, some theists would come up with a way to get around it, or claim that God did it... ://

Exactly. To Theists, God is always going to be the Why to the scientific How.

Yep... It's still fun to debate though. :P

I know my happiest time being an atheist was when I read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins... that man is my hero. I don't care about what other people will say on this site. Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris too... They take science and use it for good instead of evil... :D
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
jharry
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9/10/2010 6:58:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/10/2010 6:41:04 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
To sum it up simply, both sides have crazy people.

And the best part. Tkubok, your wrong.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen