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Heaven or Earth?

MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 12:57:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Apparently mad is subject to decay and putrefaction when he's asleep.
hahahahahaha.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 1:35:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:57:15 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Apparently mad is subject to decay and putrefaction when he's asleep.
hahahahahaha.

We are all subject it it all the time. The proof of it is in your vacuum cleaner.

The major part of house dust is dead human skin cells, along with the millions of dust mites that feed on our dead skin cells.

The dust mites are approximately the same size as the millions of mites which live on every mouthful of cheese you eat (along with their dead and their excrement, lol).

Does knowing that when you eat cheese you also eat cheese mites and their pooh bother you at all, lol?

At first our bodies replace all dead and decayed cells, but eventually it loses it's ability to do so.

Medical science is still puzzled as to why that should be, because the human body should be able to live eternally if that continued to happen as it does at the start, without ageing at all past maturity.

That is, of course, the state to which we will be returned post Armageddon.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be.
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 1:48:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be.

Recruiting has dropped off dramatically since the authorities barred your lot from recruiting in sheltered workshops, hasn't it.
Apparently 0.1% of the population is born with only brainstem function no higher brain activity and that number matches almost perfectly the number of jehovians.
Coincidence? I think not.
LMFAO
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tidalwave
Posts: 40
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9/17/2015 1:50:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be. : :

Tell me what the afterlife will be.
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 2:01:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:35:49 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:57:15 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Apparently mad is subject to decay and putrefaction when he's asleep.
hahahahahaha.

We are all subject it it all the time. The proof of it is in your vacuum cleaner.

The major part of house dust is dead human skin cells, along with the millions of dust mites that feed on our dead skin cells.

The dust mites are approximately the same size as the millions of mites which live on every mouthful of cheese you eat (along with their dead and their excrement, lol).

Does knowing that when you eat cheese you also eat cheese mites and their pooh bother you at all, lol?

At first our bodies replace all dead and decayed cells, but eventually it loses it's ability to do so.

Medical science is still puzzled as to why that should be, because the human body should be able to live eternally if that continued to happen as it does at the start, without ageing at all past maturity.

That is, of course, the state to which we will be returned post Armageddon.

I have no problem believing that YOU suffer putrefaction every night you sleep, luckily you don't have a brain that would suffer that particular ordeal.
Har Har Magedon again, roll on 1914 we're all waiting but especially mad.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:21:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:01:33 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:35:49 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:57:15 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Apparently mad is subject to decay and putrefaction when he's asleep.
hahahahahaha.

We are all subject it it all the time. The proof of it is in your vacuum cleaner.

The major part of house dust is dead human skin cells, along with the millions of dust mites that feed on our dead skin cells.

The dust mites are approximately the same size as the millions of mites which live on every mouthful of cheese you eat (along with their dead and their excrement, lol).

Does knowing that when you eat cheese you also eat cheese mites and their pooh bother you at all, lol?

At first our bodies replace all dead and decayed cells, but eventually it loses it's ability to do so.

Medical science is still puzzled as to why that should be, because the human body should be able to live eternally if that continued to happen as it does at the start, without ageing at all past maturity.

That is, of course, the state to which we will be returned post Armageddon.

I have no problem believing that YOU suffer putrefaction every night you sleep, luckily you don't have a brain that would suffer that particular ordeal.
Har Har Magedon again, roll on 1914 we're all waiting but especially mad.

If you knew anything about the human body you would already know that we all do, lol, it is only because of all those dust mites that we aren't up to our knees in purifying human flesh, lol.

No Bulproof, I don;t because I have a brain that, unlike yours, is well aware of what is happening around me, which gives me a real hope for all mankind.

You can't even get past 1914, despite having been told it was an error many times over lol, you're that dumb.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 2:21:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:36:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:50:54 PM, tidalwave wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be. : :

Tell me what the afterlife will be.

For the elect, the holy ones, the anointed it has already started.

Form 1914 onward they have been taken up to heaven as they died to join with the Christ in the rulership of his Kingdom.

The rest of the dead will get their resurrection, into fresh new Adam like bodies and onto the cleansed earth after Armageddon.

For what remains of Christ's reign they will have a role in returning the earth to what Jehovah planned as in the model he gave Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, which they and their descendants were originally planned to expand across the whole earth.

They will be taught how to look after it, and all of Jehovah's ways. In their turn they will also help teach others who are resurrected in later, since it will logically be done in stages.

All will be given time to practice living how Jehovah would wish us to live before Satan is let loose once again, this time briefly, for his last chance to prove his case, this time against much stronger humanity.

When he has failed, he will be destroyed, along with any who were daft enough to be fooled by him despite all the advantages they had enjoyed.

From that day on mankind will once again be as close to God as Adam was, Christ will hand the restored humanity back to his father.

Once the work of expanding the Paradise has been completed it will only need a certain amount of maintenance, and we will be able to enjoy a global human brotherhood in complete peace with no worries about sickness or death, since they will no-longer exist.

No more will there be food or water shortages.

There will be no national division, since all will be guided by Jehovah, and all will be able to take full advantage of a loving brotherhood with which to enjoy Jehovah's creation to the full, including the animals with which we will be at peace also.

I can hardly wait. The more suffering I see on TV, the more I long for that time to come, and it will, many on the earth today will see it unfold. The rest will come back in the resurrection.

Most of all, however, I long to share that paradise existence with as many as will listen.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:38:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:48:05 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be.

Recruiting has dropped off dramatically since the authorities barred your lot from recruiting in sheltered workshops, hasn't it.
Apparently 0.1% of the population is born with only brainstem function no higher brain activity and that number matches almost perfectly the number of jehovians.
Coincidence? I think not.
LMFAO

Nope, it hasn't, it still remains at an average 3% globally.

If that were true you would be the first in the queue, lol.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:40:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

Elijah was simply transferred to another part of the earth, as his appearance later in the record shows.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 2:41:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:21:58 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.



11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"

Except Jesus proved that he didn't. At least not the spiritual heaven, maybe the physical heavens.

After all, those watching would know no difference would they.
tidalwave
Posts: 40
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9/17/2015 2:42:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:36:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:50:54 PM, tidalwave wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be. : :

Tell me what the afterlife will be.

For the elect, the holy ones, the anointed it has already started.

Form 1914 onward they have been taken up to heaven as they died to join with the Christ in the rulership of his Kingdom.

The rest of the dead will get their resurrection, into fresh new Adam like bodies and onto the cleansed earth after Armageddon.

For what remains of Christ's reign they will have a role in returning the earth to what Jehovah planned as in the model he gave Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, which they and their descendants were originally planned to expand across the whole earth.

They will be taught how to look after it, and all of Jehovah's ways. In their turn they will also help teach others who are resurrected in later, since it will logically be done in stages.

All will be given time to practice living how Jehovah would wish us to live before Satan is let loose once again, this time briefly, for his last chance to prove his case, this time against much stronger humanity.

When he has failed, he will be destroyed, along with any who were daft enough to be fooled by him despite all the advantages they had enjoyed.

From that day on mankind will once again be as close to God as Adam was, Christ will hand the restored humanity back to his father.

Once the work of expanding the Paradise has been completed it will only need a certain amount of maintenance, and we will be able to enjoy a global human brotherhood in complete peace with no worries about sickness or death, since they will no-longer exist.

No more will there be food or water shortages.

There will be no national division, since all will be guided by Jehovah, and all will be able to take full advantage of a loving brotherhood with which to enjoy Jehovah's creation to the full, including the animals with which we will be at peace also.

I can hardly wait. The more suffering I see on TV, the more I long for that time to come, and it will, many on the earth today will see it unfold. The rest will come back in the resurrection.

Most of all, however, I long to share that paradise existence with as many as will listen. : :

I'm sure glad I didn't listen to the JW's instead of listening to the ONE who created everything. At least God doesn't lie.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 2:44:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:40:02 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

Elijah was simply transferred to another part of the earth, as his appearance later in the record shows.

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says he went up into Heaven. But you are saying that is wrong and he was transferred to another place on earth. So I should believe you over scripture?

Or could it be that your interpretation of John 3:12 is erroneous? I mean, the context of the conversation is between Jesus and Nicodemus about entering Heaven.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 2:46:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:41:35 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:21:58 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.



11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"

Except Jesus proved that he didn't. At least not the spiritual heaven, maybe the physical heavens.

After all, those watching would know no difference would they.

Ya see how mad is more than happy to correct god's mistakes, gee he makes a lot, mad I don't know how you keep up with them.
Will you finish writing your bible of what god should have said and settle it once and for all.
LMFAO
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 2:50:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:41:35 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:21:58 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.



11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"

Except Jesus proved that he didn't. At least not the spiritual heaven, maybe the physical heavens.

Unless your interpretation of what Jesus said is wrong?

After all, those watching would know no difference would they.

Well scriptures are inspired so I can go with them.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 4:12:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Is it possible Jesus was simply answering Nicodemus question about how he could enter Heaven.

I think we both agree that Abraham, David and Moses ect had not entered Heaven yet, not while Jesus was on earth.

But in the end, Jesus could not be saying that no person has entered Heaven without saying Holy Scripture is false when speaking about Elijah and Enoch.

Could it be Nicodemus was asking how to get to Heaven in the general since, his understanding was Sheol at this point. And Jesus was explaining how He could redeem those in Sheol and those that died later?

I know it may not jive with the JW tradition, but can you at least ask yourself the honest question?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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9/17/2015 4:21:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 1:37:06 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:31:53 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

You have no more idea if an afterlife exists and its nature, than anyone else!

I have as much idea as the 8,000,000 or so JWs do, lol, and that is plenty since we also know what it will be.

If the JWs believe it to be true, then it must be all lies!
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 4:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:38:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Nope, it hasn't, it still remains at an average 3% globally.
7 million is not 3% of 7 billion.
Gee your smart, jaha jaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 6:22:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:50:24 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:41:35 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:21:58 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:18:18 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:09:23 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 1:28:25 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:40:00 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Enoch?

Not even Enoch. Christ, who was Jehovah's only begotten so incarnate said no-one, and he should know.

Enoch's body dies, but like all faithful men he has a special place in Jehovah's memory.

I assume that you are referring to Hebrews 11:5.

We do not know where his body was transferred to on death, but it is that same as happened to Moses' body and the body of Jesus, as Mary discovered when she got to the tomb.

Jehovah had his angels make sure there was nothing of such outstandingly faithful ones to be venerated.

Elijah?

He was simply moved from one place on earth to another, and appears in the record well after the event you refer to.

At least you appear to be giving me the credit for having read their stories, which I have, many times.



11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"

Except Jesus proved that he didn't. At least not the spiritual heaven, maybe the physical heavens.

Unless your interpretation of what Jesus said is wrong?

Unfortunately it is not open to interpretation, it is a straightforward statement, that none have ascended to heaven.

It helps that scripture backs that statement up also, calling him the "first fruits from the dead", in other words the first one resurrected.

Sorry, but it is absolutely true.


After all, those watching would know no difference would they.

Well scriptures are inspired so I can go with them.

That is why I say what I say.

Just because scripture is inspired doesn't mean we understand it right, or even that it has been translated right. Nor does it mean that it is written verbatim. Men wrote God's thought's down in their own words like any good secretary does, even today.

In fact it is absolutely obvious that the majority if translations haven't. Most have had Jehovah's name removed from so many places where it belongs and replaced it with LORD for a start.

How much more blasphemous can you get than that?

Since scripture speaks of both spiritual heavens, and physical heavens, t and Christ and other scriptures have agreed that no-one has been resurrected, that scripture can only mean that Elijah was taken up into the physical heavens only to be put back on earth elsewhere, which is why he appears in another part of the area much later than when he was taken up into "heaven".

2 Kings 2:11. Elijah is in Israel; when this happens.

2 Chronicles 21:!2-15 sees Elijah now in Judah some time later.

Therefore, as I say, the scripture must be referring to the physical heavens, not heaven itself.

Like you say, scripture is not wrong, Elijah did not die and go to heaven at this time, or even when he eventually did die, as Jesus makes very clear.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/17/2015 6:30:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 4:23:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:38:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Nope, it hasn't, it still remains at an average 3% globally.
7 million is not 3% of 7 billion.
Gee your smart, jaha jaha

I didn't say it was. 3% is, as I said the approximate annual Global growth of active JWs measured as at 1st September annually. Nothing more, nothing less.

So JWs are less than 1% of the global population. So what?

Scripture has always said that true believers would be very much in a minority, and they are.

Jesus likened these days to the days of Noah, and Jehovah could only find 8 faithful ones then. Hopefully there will be quite a few more this time round, when Jehovah unleashes the "4 winds" currently held back by angels standing at the "4 corners of the earth" Revelation 7:1-3.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/17/2015 6:33:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 12:17:22 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Many Apostates teach that all the dead go to heaven or Hell depending on their life on earth, and use Luke 16:19-31. to support it, pointing out that Jesus here showed Abraham in heaven.

Their problem is that Luke 16 has absolutely no connection with any thought of an afterlife.

John 3:12-13
YLT(i) 12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe? 13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down"the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Not especially that Jesus said that no one, not one person, not even Jehovah's friend Abraham, has risen to heaven.

So where is Abraham?

Like all before and after him he is both in the grave (Sheol, or Hades) and in Jehovah's memory to be resurrected in due time Jesus and the Apostles all generally used the term asleep (in death) to describe the state of those who are completely unconscious and awaiting their resurrection on to the cleansed earth.

These false teachers also use that same passage to support their slanderous teaching of a Hell of torment.

That too is completely unscriptural and such ones are in effect only existing in Jehovah's memory so that eh can recall them to life.

Nobody - not on here, anyway - has ventured the claim that Abraham or anyone else other than Jesus has gone to .... heaven. I haven't seen it.

What IS claimed is that Abraham, Lazarus, and the penitent thief all went to Hades, and not only that, they went to Paradise.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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9/17/2015 6:34:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:30:07 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/17/2015 4:23:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:38:23 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Nope, it hasn't, it still remains at an average 3% globally.
7 million is not 3% of 7 billion.
Gee your smart, jaha jaha

I didn't say it was. 3% is, as I said the approximate annual Global growth of active JWs measured as at 1st September annually. Nothing more, nothing less.

So JWs are less than 1% of the global population. So what?

Scripture has always said that true believers would be very much in a minority, and they are.

Jesus likened these days to the days of Noah, and Jehovah could only find 8 faithful ones then. Hopefully there will be quite a few more this time round, when Jehovah unleashes the "4 winds" currently held back by angels standing at the "4 corners of the earth" Revelation 7:1-3.

And we know that Noah never existed, I think you maybe right Jesus wasn't playing with a full deck.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/17/2015 6:38:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:22:09 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

It literally says "Elijah went up to Heaven"

Except Jesus proved that he didn't. At least not the spiritual heaven, maybe the physical heavens.

Unless your interpretation of what Jesus said is wrong?

Unfortunately it is not open to interpretation, it is a straightforward statement, that none have ascended to heaven.

It helps that scripture backs that statement up also, calling him the "first fruits from the dead", in other words the first one resurrected.

Sorry, but it is absolutely true.

Well let's see if you are right about Elijah before we call it over lol.


After all, those watching would know no difference would they.

Well scriptures are inspired so I can go with them.

That is why I say what I say.

Just because scripture is inspired doesn't mean we understand it right, or even that it has been translated right. Nor does it mean that it is written verbatim. Men wrote God's thought's down in their own words like any good secretary does, even today.
Since scripture speaks of both spiritual heavens, and physical heavens, t and Christ and other scriptures have agreed that no-one has been resurrected, that scripture can only mean that Elijah was taken up into the physical heavens only to be put back on earth elsewhere, which is why he appears in another part of the area much later than when he was taken up into "heaven".

2 Kings 2:11. Elijah is in Israel; when this happens.

2 Kings 2:11

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

This is a retelling of the same account.

2 Chronicles 21:!2-15 sees Elijah now in Judah some time later.

The only reference to Elijah is a letter received from him. And it is also a retelling of the same events, only from the perspective of Jehoram. Have you ever actually read these verses?

Therefore, as I say, the scripture must be referring to the physical heavens, not heaven itself.

Like you say, scripture is not wrong, Elijah did not die and go to heaven at this time, or even when he eventually did die, as Jesus makes very clear.

He did not die, but it clearly says he went up to Heaven.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen