Total Posts:62|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Whose "religious freedom" is protected....

wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion?
tidalwave
Posts: 40
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 2:30:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion? : :

Freedom FROM religion won't happen until God destroys all religions soon as planned.

Daniel 2
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 2:36:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:30:21 PM, tidalwave wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion? : :

Freedom FROM religion won't happen until God destroys all religions soon as planned.

Daniel 2
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

And what, exactly, does that have to do with the Constitution of the United States of America?
tidalwave
Posts: 40
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 2:38:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:36:36 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:30:21 PM, tidalwave wrote:
At 9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion? : :

Freedom FROM religion won't happen until God destroys all religions soon as planned.

Daniel 2
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

And what, exactly, does that have to do with the Constitution of the United States of America? : :

I only answered your last question which is the most important one. The other questions don't matter to me because all religions will be destroyed soon.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 2:49:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion?

If you look at history, humanity hasn't had a good track record on freedom of religion. Religions have tended to be typically both oppressive and repressive; and indeed continue to be.

Indeed, surprisingly there is a non insignificant portion of the Republican Party whose deeds and actions seem to lean towards the establishment of some, albeit at this time limited, form of theocracy. Ironic considering why many people initially moved to the U.S. In the first place...

Given this, it's pretty obvious that you can't have freedom of religion in any meaningful sense without a government that is free from and separate of religion.

Government should be about fixing problems, making sure there is law an order, functioning infrastructure, security and opportunity for everyone. It seems extraordinary to me that people think that is the role of government should somehow involve some form of role in people's spiritual enlightenment, no matter how limited.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 3:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 2:27:13 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
by the Constitution?

Do only Christians have religious freedom?

http://www.rightwingwatch.org...-

What about differing denominations within Christianity?

http://www.politicalresearch.org...

What about other religions? Judaism? Muslim? Hindu? Buddhism?

What about freedom FROM religion?

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion (Congress shall make no laws...) and freedom from religion (No religious test to hold public office, e.g.) yet Christians have been trying to subvert that for two centuries. They succeeded in getting 'Under God' into the Pledge and 'In God We Trust' on our money when the Red Scare came along but now people are fighting back and they don't like it. They are the most 'persecuted' majority in the world and their most radical sects are the ones that the right wing is pandering to in hopes of getting votes.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone. The people who think otherwise don't understand the point of The New Testament.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:22:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.


SO, what excatly is it that non-Christians are supposed to "accept"?

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.


Does that include ignoring actions by Christians that seek to violate my civil rights? Should I ignore Christians calling for my execution / extermination?

Christianity is good for everyone. The people who think otherwise don't understand the point of The New Testament.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:43:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone

There's a laugh. Tell that to all the people burned alive, beheaded, tortured, and hanged because they didn't fit into someone's religious point of view. Oh, and I'm not just talking about the past. This is happening now in several countries in Africa.

. The people who think otherwise don't understand the point of The New Testament.

Apparently neither do these other Christians
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:44:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:22:55 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.


SO, what excatly is it that non-Christians are supposed to "accept"?


I wouldn't say you are supposed to accept anything, but you'd be a whole lot better off if you accept reality. I think that would be pretty good advice to anyone.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.


Does that include ignoring actions by Christians that seek to violate my civil rights? Should I ignore Christians calling for my execution / extermination?


Anyone can identify as a Christian. Identifying as a Christian does not imply that you have even the most basic understanding of scripture. A Christian wouldn't call for your execution or extermination. "Mercy triumphs over judgement" is what constitutes the Christian mentality.

In fact, if it wasn't for the Christian mentality, you wouldn't even have this silly idea of having any rights. A government that gives everyone the freedom to have their own personal relationship with God represents the type of thinking that would come from a true believer.

In fact, the marriage of Church and State is about the most un-Christian thing you can possibly do with a government. Christians don't want a state church. Jesus was persecuted by and eventually killed as a result of religious authority.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:46:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:44:28 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:22:55 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.


SO, what excatly is it that non-Christians are supposed to "accept"?


I wouldn't say you are supposed to accept anything, but you'd be a whole lot better off if you accept reality. I think that would be pretty good advice to anyone.


You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.


Does that include ignoring actions by Christians that seek to violate my civil rights? Should I ignore Christians calling for my execution / extermination?


Anyone can identify as a Christian. Identifying as a Christian does not imply that you have even the most basic understanding of scripture. A Christian wouldn't call for your execution or extermination. "Mercy triumphs over judgement" is what constitutes the Christian mentality.

In fact, if it wasn't for the Christian mentality, you wouldn't even have this silly idea of having any rights. A government that gives everyone the freedom to have their own personal relationship with God represents the type of thinking that would come from a true believer.

In fact, the marriage of Church and State is about the most un-Christian thing you can possibly do with a government. Christians don't want a state church. Jesus was persecuted by and eventually killed as a result of religious authority.

You must not watch the news. Lots of so-called Christians want the Bible to be the law of the land. Or at least the parts of the Bible they like.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:50:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:43:39 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone

There's a laugh. Tell that to all the people burned alive, beheaded, tortured, and hanged because they didn't fit into someone's religious point of view. Oh, and I'm not just talking about the past. This is happening now in several countries in Africa.


Followers of Jesus Christ do not do these things.

I'd like to point out that a sizable number of the saints were killed by the church. Jesus himself was killed due to the influence of religious authorities.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 7:53:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:50:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:43:39 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone

There's a laugh. Tell that to all the people burned alive, beheaded, tortured, and hanged because they didn't fit into someone's religious point of view. Oh, and I'm not just talking about the past. This is happening now in several countries in Africa.


Followers of Jesus Christ do not do these things.

Their Bible tells them not to suffer a witch to live. How are they not being followers of Christ when he said all of the law should be obeyed and not a 'jot or a tittle' would pass away?

I'd like to point out that a sizable number of the saints were killed by the church. Jesus himself was killed due to the influence of religious authorities.

Yep, and the Christians persecuted the Jews for centuries afterward.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:03:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:46:51 PM, dhardage wrote:
You must not watch the news. Lots of so-called Christians want the Bible to be the law of the land. Or at least the parts of the Bible they like.

~~~~~~From 1 Corinthians~~~~

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner"not even to eat with such a person.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside (the church) God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Christian is called to be a certain way, and the way of the Christian is not the way of the world. Christians are called to be servants, not regulators of the lives of those outside the church.

No one is born a believer, one has to be born again of the spirit.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:11:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 7:53:05 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:50:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:43:39 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone

There's a laugh. Tell that to all the people burned alive, beheaded, tortured, and hanged because they didn't fit into someone's religious point of view. Oh, and I'm not just talking about the past. This is happening now in several countries in Africa.


Followers of Jesus Christ do not do these things.

Their Bible tells them not to suffer a witch to live. How are they not being followers of Christ when he said all of the law should be obeyed and not a 'jot or a tittle' would pass away?

~~~~From the Gospel of John~~~~

Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?"

She said, "No one, Lord."

And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."


I'd like to point out that a sizable number of the saints were killed by the church. Jesus himself was killed due to the influence of religious authorities.

Yep, and the Christians persecuted the Jews for centuries afterward.

As I have stated before, anyone can call themselves a Christian, this does not mean that they have even the most basic understanding of scripture.

And lets be honest here, if someone felt that they could gain more power and influence by exploiting the beliefs of people, don't you think they would? Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool, and it is easy to manipulate people who don't know any better.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
desmac
Posts: 5,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:15:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:03:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:46:51 PM, dhardage wrote:
You must not watch the news. Lots of so-called Christians want the Bible to be the law of the land. Or at least the parts of the Bible they like.

~~~~~~From 1 Corinthians~~~~

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner"not even to eat with such a person.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside (the church) God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A Christian is called to be a certain way, and the way of the Christian is not the way of the world. Christians are called to be servants, not regulators of the lives of those outside the church.

No one is born a believer, one has to be born again of the spirit.

At least you yanks are lucky and have a constitution, which nominally secures freedom from religion. Here in the U.K the monarch is constitutionally the head god botherer of the church of england, and bishops get automatic entry to the upper House of Parliament.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:20:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:11:29 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:53:05 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:50:21 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 7:43:39 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 6:24:55 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
It'll be a fine day indeed when the people of America realize that an attitude of forgiveness is better for society than an attitude of tolerance or condemnation.

You have freedom from religion. It's called sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that might contradict your current understanding.

Christianity is good for everyone

There's a laugh. Tell that to all the people burned alive, beheaded, tortured, and hanged because they didn't fit into someone's religious point of view. Oh, and I'm not just talking about the past. This is happening now in several countries in Africa.


Followers of Jesus Christ do not do these things.

Their Bible tells them not to suffer a witch to live. How are they not being followers of Christ when he said all of the law should be obeyed and not a 'jot or a tittle' would pass away?

~~~~From the Gospel of John~~~~

Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?"

She said, "No one, Lord."

And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."


I'd like to point out that a sizable number of the saints were killed by the church. Jesus himself was killed due to the influence of religious authorities.

Yep, and the Christians persecuted the Jews for centuries afterward.

As I have stated before, anyone can call themselves a Christian, this does not mean that they have even the most basic understanding of scripture.

And lets be honest here, if someone felt that they could gain more power and influence by exploiting the beliefs of people, don't you think they would? Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool, and it is easy to manipulate people who don't know any better.

Agreed, and that's been happening in the name of God and Christ for centuries. Yet you still say Christianity is good for people. It's too easily taken advantage of by its very nature so no, it's not good for everyone. It's good for some people.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:30:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:20:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
Agreed, and that's been happening in the name of God and Christ for centuries. Yet you still say Christianity is good for people. It's too easily taken advantage of by its very nature so no, it's not good for everyone. It's good for some people.

You can't tell the difference between people who say that they believe something, and people who actually do. You can't tell the difference between a true representative of a faith and one who simply proclaims it.

I tell you, if you applied this same type of fallacious discernment to other things, including the labels you choose to identify with, you'd realize how absurd your line of reasoning is.

You know, back in the 60s, the FBI ran a program called "COINTELPROS" to exploit people who look at things as naively as you. The idea was to have people infiltrate institutions that the government felt threatened by in order to simultaneously make these organizations look bad to outsiders and destroy them from the inside out.

There are satanists who claim to be Christian preachers. I am telling you truthfully that the Gospel is not something difficult for a rational mind to believe in.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:38:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:30:06 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:20:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
Agreed, and that's been happening in the name of God and Christ for centuries. Yet you still say Christianity is good for people. It's too easily taken advantage of by its very nature so no, it's not good for everyone. It's good for some people.

You can't tell the difference between people who say that they believe something, and people who actually do. You can't tell the difference between a true representative of a faith and one who simply proclaims it.

I tell you, if you applied this same type of fallacious discernment to other things, including the labels you choose to identify with, you'd realize how absurd your line of reasoning is.

You know, back in the 60s, the FBI ran a program called "COINTELPROS" to exploit people who look at things as naively as you. The idea was to have people infiltrate institutions that the government felt threatened by in order to simultaneously make these organizations look bad to outsiders and destroy them from the inside out.

There are satanists who claim to be Christian preachers. I am telling you truthfully that the Gospel is not something difficult for a rational mind to believe in.

We obviously have different ideas of 'Rational', as clearly demonstrated by your assertion of 'satanists' claiming to be Christian preachers. You have no evidence to support that assertion yet you claim to be 'rational'. You believe something exists that cannot be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard yet it created the universe and everything in it yet you claim to rational.

Let me just say that yes, the Christian bible has some very good things in it, very good rules to live by and to treat others by. That doesn't make it holy, or the words of any God. It's just a book.
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:55:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:38:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:30:06 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:20:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
Agreed, and that's been happening in the name of God and Christ for centuries. Yet you still say Christianity is good for people. It's too easily taken advantage of by its very nature so no, it's not good for everyone. It's good for some people.

You can't tell the difference between people who say that they believe something, and people who actually do. You can't tell the difference between a true representative of a faith and one who simply proclaims it.

I tell you, if you applied this same type of fallacious discernment to other things, including the labels you choose to identify with, you'd realize how absurd your line of reasoning is.

You know, back in the 60s, the FBI ran a program called "COINTELPROS" to exploit people who look at things as naively as you. The idea was to have people infiltrate institutions that the government felt threatened by in order to simultaneously make these organizations look bad to outsiders and destroy them from the inside out.

There are satanists who claim to be Christian preachers. I am telling you truthfully that the Gospel is not something difficult for a rational mind to believe in.

We obviously have different ideas of 'Rational', as clearly demonstrated by your assertion of 'satanists' claiming to be Christian preachers. You have no evidence to support that assertion yet you claim to be 'rational'. You believe something exists that cannot be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard yet it created the universe and everything in it yet you claim to rational.


A satanist is a worshiper of the self, someone who equates their own reality with the highest reality. I shouldn't have to present evidence of this claim, it is reasonable to believe that such people exist.

Certainly, something exists that cannot be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard, yet it creates the universe and everything in it. You want to know what fulfills these requirements? Existence itself does. You can't see existence. You can't smell it, touch it, taste it, hear it, and everything is contingent on it.

It isn't that these things are not rational, it's that you aren't willing to take these mysteries seriously enough to actually get anything out of them.

Let me just say that yes, the Christian bible has some very good things in it, very good rules to live by and to treat others by. That doesn't make it holy, or the words of any God. It's just a book.

It isn't "just" a book. The Bible very clearly is more than "just" a book. To say that anything is "just" anything at all is inherently fallacious. No, the Bible is a lot of things.

The Bible reveals the Gospel, and the Gospel is that God is the solution to your problems, and that you are not bound to continue along the path of self destruction and misery just because you've made mistakes in the past. The bible does not teach a message of condemnation or even tolerance. It teaches forgiveness. There is a big difference between forgiveness and tolerance, and when people realize that forgiveness is a great deal better than tolerance, a great many issues will get solved right off the bat.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.

The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
mrsatan
Posts: 428
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:23:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

While you are correct that praying/preaching/etc. in public doesn't go against the constitution (and yes, I know there are atheists who get all pissy about such things. They've no grounds for it.), I think you misunderstand what is meant by "freedom from religion". What it means is "not subject to laws derived from religious beliefs". That is why part of the first amendment is, "...shall make no law in respect to a religious establishment...".

So yes, freedom from religion is as much a constitutional decree as freedom of religion. It is supported by the first amendment, not a violation of it.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:30:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:23:08 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

While you are correct that praying/preaching/etc. in public doesn't go against the constitution (and yes, I know there are atheists who get all pissy about such things. They've no grounds for it.), I think you misunderstand what is meant by "freedom from religion". What it means is "not subject to laws derived from religious beliefs". That is why part of the first amendment is, "...shall make no law in respect to a religious establishment...".

So yes, freedom from religion is as much a constitutional decree as freedom of religion. It is supported by the first amendment, not a violation of it.

How would you define a "law derived from religious beliefs"?
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:47:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:55:18 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:38:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:30:06 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:20:32 PM, dhardage wrote:
Agreed, and that's been happening in the name of God and Christ for centuries. Yet you still say Christianity is good for people. It's too easily taken advantage of by its very nature so no, it's not good for everyone. It's good for some people.

You can't tell the difference between people who say that they believe something, and people who actually do. You can't tell the difference between a true representative of a faith and one who simply proclaims it.

I tell you, if you applied this same type of fallacious discernment to other things, including the labels you choose to identify with, you'd realize how absurd your line of reasoning is.

Yet another assertion you cannot support.

You know, back in the 60s, the FBI ran a program called "COINTELPROS" to exploit people who look at things as naively as you. The idea was to have people infiltrate institutions that the government felt threatened by in order to simultaneously make these organizations look bad to outsiders and destroy them from the inside out.

Must have worked on a lot of religious groups.

There are satanists who claim to be Christian preachers. I am telling you truthfully that the Gospel is not something difficult for a rational mind to believe in.

We obviously have different ideas of 'Rational', as clearly demonstrated by your assertion of 'satanists' claiming to be Christian preachers. You have no evidence to support that assertion yet you claim to be 'rational'. You believe something exists that cannot be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard yet it created the universe and everything in it yet you claim to rational.


A satanist is a worshiper of the self, someone who equates their own reality with the highest reality. I shouldn't have to present evidence of this claim, it is reasonable to believe that such people exist.

Certainly, something exists that cannot be seen, smelled, touched, tasted, or heard, yet it creates the universe and everything in it. You want to know what fulfills these requirements? Existence itself does.

Existence is a state of being, not an object one can see. One can observe existence simply by looking around. This is a foolish statement.

You can't see existence. You can't smell it, touch it, taste it, hear it, and everything is contingent on it.

It isn't that these things are not rational, it's that you aren't willing to take these mysteries seriously enough to actually get anything out of them.

It's that I'm not willing to go down your rabbit hole and allow things that are not demonstrably real to affect the way I observe the world.

Let me just say that yes, the Christian bible has some very good things in it, very good rules to live by and to treat others by. That doesn't make it holy, or the words of any God. It's just a book.

It isn't "just" a book. The Bible very clearly is more than "just" a book. To say that anything is "just" anything at all is inherently fallacious. No, the Bible is a lot of things.

No, it's a statement of fact. It's just a book. Everything else about it is made up to support a theology and a belief system that discourages critical thought and encourages blind faith and obedience.

The Bible reveals the Gospel, and the Gospel is that God is the solution to your problems, and that you are not bound to continue along the path of self destruction and misery just because you've made mistakes in the past. The bible does not teach a message of condemnation or even tolerance. It teaches forgiveness. There is a big difference between forgiveness and tolerance, and when people realize that forgiveness is a great deal better than tolerance, a great many issues will get solved right off the bat.

Well, since your Jesus said anyone who doesn't believe in him would face eternal torment, I don't see how that will ever happen.

See the Gospel of Luke
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
mrsatan
Posts: 428
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:47:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:30:49 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:23:08 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

While you are correct that praying/preaching/etc. in public doesn't go against the constitution (and yes, I know there are atheists who get all pissy about such things. They've no grounds for it.), I think you misunderstand what is meant by "freedom from religion". What it means is "not subject to laws derived from religious beliefs". That is why part of the first amendment is, "...shall make no law in respect to a religious establishment...".

So yes, freedom from religion is as much a constitutional decree as freedom of religion. It is supported by the first amendment, not a violation of it.

How would you define a "law derived from religious beliefs"?

I wouldn't, as I consider it self explanatory. But, if it's more understandable, change it to "law justified by religious belief". Or perhaps, "not subjected to restrictions on ones freedom because <insert religion> is opposed to those freedoms".
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.

My apologies for derailing the thread. I should have asked my opponent to start another thread. I have answered earlier and I will let that stand. Again, my apologies.
mrsatan
Posts: 428
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 9:50:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:47:36 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:30:49 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:23:08 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

While you are correct that praying/preaching/etc. in public doesn't go against the constitution (and yes, I know there are atheists who get all pissy about such things. They've no grounds for it.), I think you misunderstand what is meant by "freedom from religion". What it means is "not subject to laws derived from religious beliefs". That is why part of the first amendment is, "...shall make no law in respect to a religious establishment...".

So yes, freedom from religion is as much a constitutional decree as freedom of religion. It is supported by the first amendment, not a violation of it.

How would you define a "law derived from religious beliefs"?

I wouldn't, as I consider it self explanatory. But, if it's more understandable, change it to "law justified by religious belief". Or perhaps, "not subjected to restrictions on ones freedom because <insert religion> is opposed to those freedoms".

*justified solely by religious belief*
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 10:17:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:47:36 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:30:49 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:23:08 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

While you are correct that praying/preaching/etc. in public doesn't go against the constitution (and yes, I know there are atheists who get all pissy about such things. They've no grounds for it.), I think you misunderstand what is meant by "freedom from religion". What it means is "not subject to laws derived from religious beliefs". That is why part of the first amendment is, "...shall make no law in respect to a religious establishment...".

So yes, freedom from religion is as much a constitutional decree as freedom of religion. It is supported by the first amendment, not a violation of it.

How would you define a "law derived from religious beliefs"?

I wouldn't, as I consider it self explanatory. But, if it's more understandable, change it to "law justified by religious belief". Or perhaps, "not subjected to restrictions on ones freedom because <insert religion> is opposed to those freedoms".

What about laws that happen to have parallels in religious scripture?

Going a step further, Religion is defined by Merriam-Webster as, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith". It could be argued that the very concept of property rights, or the idea that human life has value are religious in nature.

Lets look at what the first amendment says.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Respecting in this context means, "with reference or regard to".

An establishment of religion is a religious institution.

What "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" means that congress doesn't make religious laws, it stays out of the business of religious institutions or churches.

What "(no law) prohibiting the free exercise thereof (religion)" means is that everyone is free to be a part of whatever religious institution they wish to be a part of.

"or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

Abridging means "curtail or limit". These rights apply to everyone, but they havea great deal to do with churches. A Church is a peaceful assembly where speech goes on and where printed material is used. The government is not supposed to pass laws that tell people what they can and can not say, and the government is not supposed to pass laws that tell people what they can and can not print on paper.

"and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." guarantees the right of the citizen to bother the government about civil rights and whatever problems they may have.

The first amendment was practically made with the church in mind, thought it applies to broader things.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2015 10:28:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 8:59:25 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/17/2015 8:43:05 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
I guess I posted this thread in the wrong forum. None of you are answering the questions posed in the OP.

This was not meant to be a discussion of religious beliefs, but a discussion about freedom of / from religion and who does or does not have it. What any particular belief or religion in itself is or is not, is irrelevant.


The first amendment gives freedom of belief and speech to everyone, regardless of faith. At least that is how it is on paper.

The idea of "freedom from religion" violates the first amendment, as it is a position that restricts the freedom of speech. There is nothing stopping you from sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring anything that contradicts your current understanding. Indeed, it is the American way.

And America is 75% christian, well said.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin