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Theism is the mind killer.

Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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9/17/2015 9:42:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
Theism is the mind killer.

Do you even have mind, can you prove that?

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

I don"t know, after all, Bible says this:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

Bible just doesn"t give much value for human wisdom. And I think can be easily understood when we look what people say by their own wisdom.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/17/2015 9:45:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:42:27 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
Theism is the mind killer.

Do you even have mind, can you prove that?

The way I'm defining mind for the purposes of this thread yes, philosophically speaking, no.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

I don"t know, after all, Bible says this:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

Bible just doesn"t give much value for human wisdom. And I think can be easily understood when we look what people say by their own wisdom.
UniversalTheologian
Posts: 1,078
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9/17/2015 9:46:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Notice how there are no details of the experiment or their method for determining religiosity, how they define that, or anything of the nature.

I'd be willing to wager that closer examination of the methodologies involved here will reveal the pseudo-scientific nature of these conclusions.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,953
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9/17/2015 9:55:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Two major problems:

IQ is equivocated with "intelligence".

Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

The average difference in IQ between the religious and irreligious is 4 points. It's nothing to write home about anyway.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,953
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9/17/2015 10:04:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
the implicit assumptions behind this are ridiculous anyway.

IQ means higher intelligence
Higher intelligence means higher ability to discern truth values
"God exists" is a truth proposition.

(Based on this reasoning) conclusion: Atheists are most likely to be right on whether or not God exists. Therefore God doesn't exist.

Two major problems:

If IQ is a quantitative measure of intelligence (meaning someone with an IQ of 200 is objectively more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 199), then the person who has the highest IQ has best ability to discern truth propositions. The person with the highest IQ who's beliefs are currently known believes in God. Therefore, following this logic, God exists.

Secondly, if we're only going by *averages* then the Jewish are far and above the irreligious. (Average IQ In the low 130's). Therefore God still exists even if we were to go by averages.

The argument is just plain stupid in the first place, but atheists who use it in such a way are going to be disappointed.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,953
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9/17/2015 10:16:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Edit. Nvm Jewish don't have an average of 130ish. I must've remember that from this dumb thread .
http://www.debate.org...

The average IQ of a Jew is still the highest of any group of people (as far as I'm aware) of about 110-115. So my point stands.
http://immortallife.info...
tidalwave
Posts: 40
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9/17/2015 11:58:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual? : :

Christians follow imaginary gods that appear in their minds from reading the Bible or listening to false prophets who have no idea who God is. It makes no difference how intelligent these Christians are. They were chosen by God to worship the beast.

After us saints and prophets are totally humiliated and humbled by God, we learn where our intelligence comes from. All our thoughts come from our Creator so we learn that we're nothing without Him.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this:

Psalm 139
17: How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
missmedic
Posts: 387
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9/18/2015 1:16:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Christianity especially, but certainly not uniquely, emphasizes the importance of belief itself. Only if you believe the dogma of religion will you be saved. This clever trick forces you to hesitate to even think about questioning the basic claims of the religion. It is designed to shut down your naturally inquiring, skeptical mind, and block any internal criticism of the religion.
bulproof
Posts: 25,209
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9/18/2015 1:37:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 1:16:05 AM, missmedic wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Christianity especially, but certainly not uniquely, emphasizes the importance of belief itself. Only if you believe the dogma of religion will you be saved. This clever trick forces you to hesitate to even think about questioning the basic claims of the religion. It is designed to shut down your naturally inquiring, skeptical mind, and block any internal criticism of the religion.

+ a lot.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 2:07:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:55:40 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Two major problems:

IQ is equivocated with "intelligence".

It's a pretty good indicator of intelligence. It's pretty easy to tell when people are 30 IQ points apart. I mean 135 and 150!might not be a domicile difference but 80 and 95 certainly are. I'd be willing to bet money there are no Medical doctors with an IQ under 100.

Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

The average difference in IQ between the religious and irreligious is 4 points. It's nothing to write home about anyway.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 2:08:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:46:32 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Notice how there are no details of the experiment or their method for determining religiosity, how they define that, or anything of the nature.

I'd be willing to wager that closer examination of the methodologies involved here will reveal the pseudo-scientific nature of these conclusions.

They provide a link to the meta study. I think these meta studies would be pretty accurate, but if you can gm find fault in it, I'm all ears.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 2:11:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 10:04:04 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
the implicit assumptions behind this are ridiculous anyway.

IQ means higher intelligence

It does, though it's not a perfect indicator.

Higher intelligence means higher ability to discern truth values
"God exists" is a truth proposition.

Not true, this assumption is not made, nor mentioned.

(Based on this reasoning) conclusion: Atheists are most likely to be right on whether or not God exists. Therefore God doesn't exist.

Untrue, the article does not make that conclusion at all, that's a dumb conclusion to make.

Two major problems:

If IQ is a quantitative measure of intelligence (meaning someone with an IQ of 200 is objectively more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 199), then the person who has the highest IQ has best ability to discern truth propositions. The person with the highest IQ who's beliefs are currently known believes in God. Therefore, following this logic, God exists.

Secondly, if we're only going by *averages* then the Jewish are far and above the irreligious. (Average IQ In the low 130's). Therefore God still exists even if we were to go by averages.

The argument is just plain stupid in the first place, but atheists who use it in such a way are going to be disappointed.

You're straw manning like crazy. The study just shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion, not that they are correct in their conclusions.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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9/18/2015 2:40:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Theology does a great line in intimidation, flattery and self-satisfaction, but doesn't well withstand the requirements evidence, transparency, accountability and coherence demanded by smart questions.

So it ejects many of its smarter adherents by failing them intellectually.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,953
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9/18/2015 4:54:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 2:07:32 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:55:40 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:35:03 PM, Wylted wrote:
According to the Examiner;

"Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a recently released scientific study. A systematic meta-analysis of 63 studies conducted between 1928 and 2012 show a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found "a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity" in 53 out of 63 studies.

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Researchers offer three possible interpretations of the data:

One, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Two, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs.
Three, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
The conclusion that intelligent people are less religious is nothing new. As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, "Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes."

http://www.examiner.com...

Now this is not to say all Christians are dumb, and as a matter of fact the most vocal atheists are usually below average in IQ, particularly the ones in this forum. Honestly only an idiot would be passionate about their disbelief in something. You don't see me passionate about Santa Clause not existing. These militant atheists are of course the Low IQ people who realize that intelligent people are typically atheist, so they become super atheist in an attempt to try and fool people into thinking they aren't stupid, but I digress.

Why do you suppose that Christianity (or any other religion), is so anti-intellectual?

Two major problems:

IQ is equivocated with "intelligence".

It's a pretty good indicator of intelligence. It's pretty easy to tell when people are 30 IQ points apart. I mean 135 and 150!might not be a domicile difference but 80 and 95 certainly are. I'd be willing to bet money there are no Medical doctors with an IQ under 100.

Sure, but at best it only correlates with intelligence - and correlation isn't causation. My problem with the source is that it uses the term "IQ" and "intelligence" interchangeably.

I also believe "theism" should've been replaced with "religion" in the title.


Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

The average difference in IQ between the religious and irreligious is 4 points. It's nothing to write home about anyway.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,953
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9/18/2015 5:02:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 2:11:04 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 10:04:04 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
the implicit assumptions behind this are ridiculous anyway.

IQ means higher intelligence

It does, though it's not a perfect indicator.

Higher intelligence means higher ability to discern truth values
"God exists" is a truth proposition.

Not true, this assumption is not made, nor mentioned.

It's implied, but if you digress, there's no way for me defend something that wasn't explicitly said.

(Based on this reasoning) conclusion: Atheists are most likely to be right on whether or not God exists. Therefore God doesn't exist.

Untrue, the article does not make that conclusion at all, that's a dumb conclusion to make.

I agree, it is a dumb conclusion, but I've seen that reasoning used before on this exact topic.

Two major problems:

If IQ is a quantitative measure of intelligence (meaning someone with an IQ of 200 is objectively more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 199), then the person who has the highest IQ has best ability to discern truth propositions. The person with the highest IQ who's beliefs are currently known believes in God. Therefore, following this logic, God exists.

Secondly, if we're only going by *averages* then the Jewish are far and above the irreligious. (Average IQ In the low 130's). Therefore God still exists even if we were to go by averages.

The argument is just plain stupid in the first place, but atheists who use it in such a way are going to be disappointed.

You're straw manning like crazy. The study just shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion, not that they are correct in their conclusions.

I'm attacking what's implied, or anyone who uses it in such a way. Otherwise, sure, irreligious people have marginally higher IQ scores on average.

I also don't think it shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion. I'm not sure exactly how many Jews are religious but I'm willing to bet that a significant majority are. Jews score the highest on average of any group in IQ testing.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 5:02:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
": Sure, but at best it only correlates with intelligence - and correlation isn't causation. My problem with the source is that it uses the term "IQ" and "intelligence" interchangeably.

Ofcourse it isn't causation. It's a test meant to measure intelligence, not something that causes people to be intelligent. Causation would be mostly genetics, except for in circumstances where people have very little access to proper nutrition. Like all tests it isn't perfect, but it's a good indicator. Just like me and you could play a game of chess 100 times in a row as a test of our ability to play chess well, and me beating you 80 times out of 100 doesn't mean I'm better than you, but it certainly serves as a good indicator. The terms IQ and intelligence are close to being interchangable. Sure they don't mean the exact same thing, but since IQ measures intelligence, perhaps using then interchangably is no big deal.

I also believe "theism" should've been replaced with "religion" in the title.

Probably, but too late for that now.


Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

Good for you.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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9/18/2015 5:07:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:02:10 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 9/18/2015 2:11:04 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 10:04:04 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
the implicit assumptions behind this are ridiculous anyway.

IQ means higher intelligence

It does, though it's not a perfect indicator.

Higher intelligence means higher ability to discern truth values
"God exists" is a truth proposition.

Not true, this assumption is not made, nor mentioned.

It's implied, but if you digress, there's no way for me defend something that wasn't explicitly said.

(Based on this reasoning) conclusion: Atheists are most likely to be right on whether or not God exists. Therefore God doesn't exist.

Untrue, the article does not make that conclusion at all, that's a dumb conclusion to make.

I agree, it is a dumb conclusion, but I've seen that reasoning used before on this exact topic.

Two major problems:

If IQ is a quantitative measure of intelligence (meaning someone with an IQ of 200 is objectively more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 199), then the person who has the highest IQ has best ability to discern truth propositions. The person with the highest IQ who's beliefs are currently known believes in God. Therefore, following this logic, God exists.

Secondly, if we're only going by *averages* then the Jewish are far and above the irreligious. (Average IQ In the low 130's). Therefore God still exists even if we were to go by averages.

The argument is just plain stupid in the first place, but atheists who use it in such a way are going to be disappointed.

You're straw manning like crazy. The study just shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion, not that they are correct in their conclusions.

I'm attacking what's implied, or anyone who uses it in such a way. Otherwise, sure, irreligious people have marginally higher IQ scores on average.

I also don't think it shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion. I'm not sure exactly how many Jews are religious but I'm willing to bet that a significant majority are. Jews score the highest on average of any group in IQ testing.

The Jews are outliers, and I won't go into the reasonin. I'm also not sure where you thought it was implied that atheist are smarter and therefore their conclusion is more likely to be correct. Especially since it's an article citing a meta study. I didn't see that implied anywhere.

If anything it was just saying that the current culture in most churches is anti intellectual, not that their cultures are true to their religion or necessarily untrue in any way.
Benshapiro
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9/18/2015 5:53:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:02:53 AM, Wylted wrote:
": Sure, but at best it only correlates with intelligence - and correlation isn't causation. My problem with the source is that it uses the term "IQ" and "intelligence" interchangeably.

Ofcourse it isn't causation. It's a test meant to measure intelligence, not something that causes people to be intelligent. Causation would be mostly genetics, except for in circumstances where people have very little access to proper nutrition. Like all tests it isn't perfect, but it's a good indicator. Just like me and you could play a game of chess 100 times in a row as a test of our ability to play chess well, and me beating you 80 times out of 100 doesn't mean I'm better than you, but it certainly serves as a good indicator. The terms IQ and intelligence are close to being interchangable. Sure they don't mean the exact same thing, but since IQ measures intelligence, perhaps using then interchangably is no big deal.

It's a measure of linear analytic ability. It doesn't measure critical thinking, creativity, social/emotional intelligence, etc. IQ scores are indicative of general intelligence, but nowhere close to identical or interchangeable with the term.

I also believe "theism" should've been replaced with "religion" in the title.

Probably, but too late for that now.

No biggie


Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

Good for you.

I said that because the OP was conflating theism with religion.
Benshapiro
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9/18/2015 6:06:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:07:16 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:02:10 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 9/18/2015 2:11:04 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 10:04:04 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
the implicit assumptions behind this are ridiculous anyway.

IQ means higher intelligence

It does, though it's not a perfect indicator.

Higher intelligence means higher ability to discern truth values
"God exists" is a truth proposition.

Not true, this assumption is not made, nor mentioned.

It's implied, but if you digress, there's no way for me defend something that wasn't explicitly said.

(Based on this reasoning) conclusion: Atheists are most likely to be right on whether or not God exists. Therefore God doesn't exist.

Untrue, the article does not make that conclusion at all, that's a dumb conclusion to make.

I agree, it is a dumb conclusion, but I've seen that reasoning used before on this exact topic.

Two major problems:

If IQ is a quantitative measure of intelligence (meaning someone with an IQ of 200 is objectively more intelligent than someone with an IQ of 199), then the person who has the highest IQ has best ability to discern truth propositions. The person with the highest IQ who's beliefs are currently known believes in God. Therefore, following this logic, God exists.

Secondly, if we're only going by *averages* then the Jewish are far and above the irreligious. (Average IQ In the low 130's). Therefore God still exists even if we were to go by averages.

The argument is just plain stupid in the first place, but atheists who use it in such a way are going to be disappointed.

You're straw manning like crazy. The study just shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion, not that they are correct in their conclusions.

I'm attacking what's implied, or anyone who uses it in such a way. Otherwise, sure, irreligious people have marginally higher IQ scores on average.

I also don't think it shows that intelligent people are less likely to choose religion. I'm not sure exactly how many Jews are religious but I'm willing to bet that a significant majority are. Jews score the highest on average of any group in IQ testing.

The Jews are outliers, and I won't go into the reasonin. I'm also not sure where you thought it was implied that atheist are smarter and therefore their conclusion is more likely to be correct. Especially since it's an article citing a meta study. I didn't see that implied anywhere.

Im referring to what's generally implied by the study. It's phsycological. Group (X) is less intelligent than group (Y). Everyone in group (X) believes (A) but nobody in group (Y) believes (A). There nothing implied there?

If anything it was just saying that the current culture in most churches is anti intellectual, not that their cultures are true to their religion or necessarily untrue in any way.

It's probably true for the most part. Skepticism and religion don't bode well.
Wylted
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9/18/2015 6:19:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:53:33 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 9/18/2015 5:02:53 AM, Wylted wrote:
": Sure, but at best it only correlates with intelligence - and correlation isn't causation. My problem with the source is that it uses the term "IQ" and "intelligence" interchangeably.

Ofcourse it isn't causation. It's a test meant to measure intelligence, not something that causes people to be intelligent. Causation would be mostly genetics, except for in circumstances where people have very little access to proper nutrition. Like all tests it isn't perfect, but it's a good indicator. Just like me and you could play a game of chess 100 times in a row as a test of our ability to play chess well, and me beating you 80 times out of 100 doesn't mean I'm better than you, but it certainly serves as a good indicator. The terms IQ and intelligence are close to being interchangable. Sure they don't mean the exact same thing, but since IQ measures intelligence, perhaps using then interchangably is no big deal.

It's a measure of linear analytic ability.

So we agree

It doesn't measure critical thinking, creativity, social/emotional intelligence, etc. IQ scores are indicative of general intelligence, but nowhere close to identical or interchangeable with the term.

Social/emotional intelligence isn't really intelligence at all, while critical thinking and creativity are more about how well you use the intelligence than what your intelligence is.

I also believe "theism" should've been replaced with "religion" in the title.

Probably, but too late for that now.

No biggie


Theists aren't necessarily religious (like me).

Good for you.

I said that because the OP was conflating theism with religion.

It's okay to do that as long as people know what you're referring to. So do you feel like answering the op, or would you prefer to continue on this tangent?
UniversalTheologian
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9/18/2015 5:05:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 2:08:38 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:46:32 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Notice how there are no details of the experiment or their method for determining religiosity, how they define that, or anything of the nature.

I'd be willing to wager that closer examination of the methodologies involved here will reveal the pseudo-scientific nature of these conclusions.

They provide a link to the meta study. I think these meta studies would be pretty accurate, but if you can gm find fault in it, I'm all ears.

Unless I missed something, none of the citations lead to the actual study, only articles that reference the study.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Wylted
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9/19/2015 1:16:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 5:05:45 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 9/18/2015 2:08:38 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 9/17/2015 9:46:32 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
Notice how there are no details of the experiment or their method for determining religiosity, how they define that, or anything of the nature.

I'd be willing to wager that closer examination of the methodologies involved here will reveal the pseudo-scientific nature of these conclusions.

They provide a link to the meta study. I think these meta studies would be pretty accurate, but if you can gm find fault in it, I'm all ears.

Unless I missed something, none of the citations lead to the actual study, only articles that reference the study.

I didn't check the authors citations, that's possible.