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Scriptures Predicts Future W/100% Accuracy

DanneJeRusse
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9/22/2015 3:03:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 7:00:03 AM, PGA wrote:

"Show me someone - any human being - who is able to see clearly into the future and predict events that will happen with 100% certainty that do every time. The pages of Scripture do this. I have offered to show this many times and most atheists and agnostics will not engage in the argument nor can they because they fly in the face of logic and common sense."

http://www.debate.org...

Okay Peter, please show that Scriptures has predicted the future with 100% accuracy?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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9/22/2015 4:42:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 3:03:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/22/2015 7:00:03 AM, PGA wrote:

"Show me someone - any human being - who is able to see clearly into the future and predict events that will happen with 100% certainty that do every time. The pages of Scripture do this. I have offered to show this many times and most atheists and agnostics will not engage in the argument nor can they because they fly in the face of logic and common sense."

http://www.debate.org...

Okay Peter, please show that Scriptures has predicted the future with 100% accuracy?

Garbage!
Harikrish
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9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 3:03:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/22/2015 7:00:03 AM, PGA wrote:

"Show me someone - any human being - who is able to see clearly into the future and predict events that will happen with 100% certainty that do every time. The pages of Scripture do this. I have offered to show this many times and most atheists and agnostics will not engage in the argument nor can they because they fly in the face of logic and common sense."

http://www.debate.org...

Okay Peter, please show that Scriptures has predicted the future with 100% accuracy?

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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9/22/2015 6:07:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.

Members of the Abrahamic faiths have been slandering and even killing each other for centuries. I expect no less of them. It's the most judgemental, self slandering, xenophobic group of individuals on the planet. They create so much ado over nothing. No accurate predictions... only self fulfilling prophesies that the rest of the world is forced to endure and tolerate.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bulproof
Posts: 25,249
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9/22/2015 7:22:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.

For some time now their defenses have been exposed and they no longer have anything in the armoury, but what's worse is that they have looked in the mirror and seen the face of the barbarian at the gate.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
PGA
Posts: 4,046
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9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 3:03:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/22/2015 7:00:03 AM, PGA wrote:

"Show me someone - any human being - who is able to see clearly into the future and predict events that will happen with 100% certainty that do every time. The pages of Scripture do this. I have offered to show this many times and most atheists and agnostics will not engage in the argument nor can they because they fly in the face of logic and common sense."

http://www.debate.org...

First of all, can you give me an example of anyone who is able to predict numerous events with certainty as per my statement that is bold and underlined above?

Okay Peter, please show that Scriptures has predicted the future with 100% accuracy?

Did both the OT and NT predict the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which would be in AD 70? Did both testaments predict the end of the Old Covenant age?


Daniel 2:40 (NASB)
Rome

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.



Daniel 2:44 (NASB)
The Divine Kingdom

44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Daniel 7:16-27 (NASB)

16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come."

19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others,....23 "Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."

Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 12 (NASB)
The Time of the End

12 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)
Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Matthew 24:1-3 (NASB)
Signs of Christ"s Return

24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Prove that these things did not happen as prophesied.

Peter
bulproof
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9/23/2015 5:01:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM, PGA
<snipped for length>

Oh dear, all of that and not a fulfilled prophesy amongst them.
Well that solves that.

Next.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
PGA
Posts: 4,046
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9/23/2015 5:01:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 6:07:21 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.

Members of the Abrahamic faiths have been slandering and even killing each other for centuries. I expect no less of them. It's the most judgemental, self slandering, xenophobic group of individuals on the planet. They create so much ado over nothing. No accurate predictions... only self fulfilling prophesies that the rest of the world is forced to endure and tolerate.

It is true there has always been division between Jews and Arabs. They are of two different faiths even if they trace their ancestry to Abraham. Also, there is confusion on what is done in the name of Christ as opposed to what He commanded. But truth is to be defended against error. To say nothing in regard to falsity is to promote it, so yes, there has always been a battle to preserve truth. Finally, you're doing a pretty good job on judgment yourself! I remember when you first started posting, how sweet and polite you were. Your real disposition and true intolerance towards Scripture and those who support it is revealed! As for self fulfilling prophecy, that is not something that you can logically support. You take as you crutch 17-19 century higher criticism. That is centuries removed from the actual events. What early evidence can you dig up as to when Daniel or the NT gospels were written? And that is just scratching the surface. What logic can you use to dispute the prophesies in question? Give me the manuscripts that show these predictions were written after the fact and that house your alleged changes to fulfill prophecy, otherwise you speak from ignorance.

Peter
bulproof
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9/23/2015 5:04:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You do know that old Abe is a mythical invention, don't you?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,122
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9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?
Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?
Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?
Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?
Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?
Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

I'm on my phone so that is enough for now, but I may add more objections to your view later.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/23/2015 5:33:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM, PGA wrote:

First of all, can you give me an example of anyone who is able to predict numerous events with certainty as per my statement that is bold and underlined above?

We can't predict the future with any kind of accuracy, Peter. No one can.

Did both the OT and NT predict the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which would be in AD 70? Did both testaments predict the end of the Old Covenant age?


Daniel 2:40 (NASB)
Rome

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.


Sorry, but NOWHERE in Daniel 2regarding Nebuchadnezzar's dream is there any reference to Rome. You need to understand that predictions have to be accurate, not generalized.



Daniel 2:44 (NASB)
The Divine Kingdom

44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Sorry Peter, but there is a very good chance your religion will be gone in the future.

Daniel 7:16-27 (NASB)

16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come."

19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others,....23 "Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."


Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 12 (NASB)
The Time of the End

12 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)
Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Matthew 24:1-3 (NASB)
Signs of Christ"s Return

24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

Sorry Peter, but Scriptures has failed to provide accurate predictions. A friend of mine years ago stated he didn't want to buy a computer until it contained a least dual processors, which is something that wasn't on anyone's radar back then. His predictions were far more accurate than Scriptures.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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9/23/2015 6:01:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:01:22 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/22/2015 6:07:21 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.

Members of the Abrahamic faiths have been slandering and even killing each other for centuries. I expect no less of them. It's the most judgemental, self slandering, xenophobic group of individuals on the planet. They create so much ado over nothing. No accurate predictions... only self fulfilling prophesies that the rest of the world is forced to endure and tolerate.

It is true there has always been division between Jews and Arabs. They are of two different faiths even if they trace their ancestry to Abraham. Also, there is confusion on what is done in the name of Christ as opposed to what He commanded. But truth is to be defended against error. To say nothing in regard to falsity is to promote it, so yes, there has always been a battle to preserve truth. Finally, you're doing a pretty good job on judgment yourself! I remember when you first started posting, how sweet and polite you were. Your real disposition and true intolerance towards Scripture and those who support it is revealed! As for self fulfilling prophecy, that is not something that you can logically support. You take as you crutch 17-19 century higher criticism. That is centuries removed from the actual events. What early evidence can you dig up as to when Daniel or the NT gospels were written? And that is just scratching the surface. What logic can you use to dispute the prophesies in question? Give me the manuscripts that show these predictions were written after the fact and that house your alleged changes to fulfill prophecy, otherwise you speak from ignorance.

Peter

I'm sorry Peter. I think in a way I was jaded a while back. There were some things that happened here. You may or may not remember. Most of those people are gone now and that is why I came back. I am trying to get back to what I was before. Please accept my apology if I have hurt you. And thank you for reminding me.

As for prophesies, I am a skeptic, and yes there is a valid argument that jihads and holy wars are self fulfilling. They have proved to be futile and unfortunate. I've read the histories and realize that they were not always at each others throats. But it is obvious that in today's world the differences are causing serious contempt on both sides. I do not dislike theism. To me it is a philosophy that in some ways helps some people make sense of life. What I question is why would Christians, Muslims and Jews kill and hurt others in the name of god and chalk it up to fulfillment of a prophesy?
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Harikrish
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9/23/2015 6:42:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.
How about.
Biblical Forecasts of Scientific Discoveries
http://www.reasons.org...
PGA
Posts: 4,046
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9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

Sure I do.

Please provide the specific verses you are referring to below!

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

God removed His hand of protection upon this Old Covenant people and the Romans set foot on that sacred ground of the temple as per the curses of the covenant. Josephus records the events:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...
http://www.preteristarchive.com...

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Book VI, Chapter VI, Section 1 (Partial)

How The Romans Carried Their Ensigns To The Temple,
And Made Joyful Acclamations to Titus.

1. And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings lying round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple* (1) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus Imperator (2), with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value.


The Romans surrounding Israel and Jerusalem was an abomination to this OT people, per their covenant curses. The burning of the Temple was an abomination to the Jews. Titus trampling the temple grounds was an abomination.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Here is one opportunity in which those in the city had chance to flee, as recorded by Josephus:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

There is also reference to many fleeing to Pella.

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

No, He came in the manner the Father came in judgment to the disobedient and with reward to those waiting Him per Matthew 16:27-28.

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

Yes, per many citation in the NT which said they were. I have already listed these for you on numerous occasions. Jesus told His disciples that they would preach the gospel throughout the world and that He would be with them until the end of the age per Matthew 28:19-20. Paul in numerous passages says that the gospel has been preached in all the world per Colossians 1:5-6, 23 as one example. You have to understand what Jesus meant by world in the context of the first century audience. They knew the world as the Roman Empire, as per Luke:

Luke 2:1
[ Jesus" Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.


That is what they knew of the inhabited earth, the Roman Empire.

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Josephus reiterates that this was that great tribulation, which confirms Scripture. Daniel also said it was upon his people. Who were his people? They were an Old Covenant people.

PREFACE, Section 1 (Entire)

1. Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of (1); both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affair themselves, have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by heresay , and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those things that were then present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humour of flattery to the Romans, or of a hatred to the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes ecomiums, but nowhere the accurate truth of the facts, I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our own country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; I, Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work.]

PRETERIST PERSPECTIVES

1. Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all" wars "ever heard of" (Like Christ -Matthew 24:21). According to the Preterist view, no matter what amount of bloodshed a war may produce today, the divine retribution and covenantal elements of this war will forever remain unique.


Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it speaks of things that applied to this OT people who existed in covenant with God until that covenant was completely removed in AD 70.

I'm on my phone so that is enough for now, but I may add more objections to your view later.

I don't have time to get into detail here either. I work tonight.

Peter
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/23/2015 7:16:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

Sure I do.

Please provide the specific verses you are referring to below!

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

God removed His hand of protection upon this Old Covenant people and the Romans set foot on that sacred ground of the temple as per the curses of the covenant. Josephus records the events:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...
http://www.preteristarchive.com...

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Book VI, Chapter VI, Section 1 (Partial)

How The Romans Carried Their Ensigns To The Temple,
And Made Joyful Acclamations to Titus.

1. And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings lying round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple* (1) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus Imperator (2), with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value.


The Romans surrounding Israel and Jerusalem was an abomination to this OT people, per their covenant curses. The burning of the Temple was an abomination to the Jews. Titus trampling the temple grounds was an abomination.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Here is one opportunity in which those in the city had chance to flee, as recorded by Josephus:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

There is also reference to many fleeing to Pella.

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

No, He came in the manner the Father came in judgment to the disobedient and with reward to those waiting Him per Matthew 16:27-28.

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

Yes, per many citation in the NT which said they were. I have already listed these for you on numerous occasions. Jesus told His disciples that they would preach the gospel throughout the world and that He would be with them until the end of the age per Matthew 28:19-20. Paul in numerous passages says that the gospel has been preached in all the world per Colossians 1:5-6, 23 as one example. You have to understand what Jesus meant by world in the context of the first century audience. They knew the world as the Roman Empire, as per Luke:

Luke 2:1
[ Jesus" Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.


That is what they knew of the inhabited earth, the Roman Empire.

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Josephus reiterates that this was that great tribulation, which confirms Scripture. Daniel also said it was upon his people. Who were his people? They were an Old Covenant people.

PREFACE, Section 1 (Entire)

1. Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of (1); both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affair themselves, have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by heresay , and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those things that were then present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humour of flattery to the Romans, or of a hatred to the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes ecomiums, but nowhere the accurate truth of the facts, I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our own country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; I, Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work.]

PRETERIST PERSPECTIVES

1. Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all" wars "ever heard of" (Like Christ -Matthew 24:21). According to the Preterist view, no matter what amount of bloodshed a war may produce today, the divine retribution and covenantal elements of this war will forever remain unique.


Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it speaks of things that applied to this OT people who existed in covenant with God until that covenant was completely removed in AD 70.

I'm on my phone so that is enough for now, but I may add more objections to your view later.

I don't have time to get into detail here either. I work tonight.

Peter

Still spreading your false, unscriptural teachings I see.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/23/2015 7:43:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:16:02 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

Still spreading your false, unscriptural teachings I see.

Maybe ole Peter has simply not become as proficient as you at discarding scriptures that disturb him, claiming that both Greek manuscripts and translations of them are inaccurate, (i .e wrong), claiming the all the dictionaries, lexicons, and grammars are wrong. Then when all those fail, simply claim that whoever spoke/wrote the passage must have been wrong. Thus, Peter is missing out on some major Jehovah's Witness ammunition. You need to school him on re-writing the Bible.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
slo1
Posts: 4,349
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9/23/2015 8:09:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/22/2015 3:03:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/22/2015 7:00:03 AM, PGA wrote:

"Show me someone - any human being - who is able to see clearly into the future and predict events that will happen with 100% certainty that do every time. The pages of Scripture do this. I have offered to show this many times and most atheists and agnostics will not engage in the argument nor can they because they fly in the face of logic and common sense."

http://www.debate.org...

Okay Peter, please show that Scriptures has predicted the future with 100% accuracy?

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

I wonder what he is supposed to do outside of camp while he is waiting out there and how long?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/23/2015 9:10:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:43:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:16:02 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

Still spreading your false, unscriptural teachings I see.

Maybe ole Peter has simply not become as proficient as you at discarding scriptures that disturb him, claiming that both Greek manuscripts and translations of them are inaccurate, (i .e wrong), claiming the all the dictionaries, lexicons, and grammars are wrong. Then when all those fail, simply claim that whoever spoke/wrote the passage must have been wrong. Thus, Peter is missing out on some major Jehovah's Witness ammunition. You need to school him on re-writing the Bible.

I don't discard any scriptures Anna it is you who does that as you well know.

I teach scriptural truth as far as it has been revealed.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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9/23/2015 9:20:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:33:48 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM, PGA wrote:

First of all, can you give me an example of anyone who is able to predict numerous events with certainty as per my statement that is bold and underlined above?

We can't predict the future with any kind of accuracy, Peter. No one can.

Did both the OT and NT predict the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which would be in AD 70? Did both testaments predict the end of the Old Covenant age?


Daniel 2:40 (NASB)
Rome

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.


Sorry, but NOWHERE in Daniel 2regarding Nebuchadnezzar's dream is there any reference to Rome. You need to understand that predictions have to be accurate, not generalized.



Daniel 2:44 (NASB)
The Divine Kingdom

44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Sorry Peter, but there is a very good chance your religion will be gone in the future.

Daniel 7:16-27 (NASB)

16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come."

19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others,....23 "Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."


Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 12 (NASB)
The Time of the End

12 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)
Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Matthew 24:1-3 (NASB)
Signs of Christ"s Return

24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)


Sorry Peter, but Scriptures has failed to provide accurate predictions. A friend of mine years ago stated he didn't want to buy a computer until it contained a least dual processors, which is something that wasn't on anyone's radar back then. His predictions were far more accurate than Scriptures.

That wasn't a prediction, that was a wishlist. The bible predicted you will have days like this.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/23/2015 11:07:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 9:10:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:43:46 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:16:02 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:

Still spreading your false, unscriptural teachings I see.

Maybe ole Peter has simply not become as proficient as you at discarding scriptures that disturb him, claiming that both Greek manuscripts and translations of them are inaccurate, (i .e wrong), claiming the all the dictionaries, lexicons, and grammars are wrong. Then when all those fail, simply claim that whoever spoke/wrote the passage must have been wrong. Thus, Peter is missing out on some major Jehovah's Witness ammunition. You need to school him on re-writing the Bible.

I don't discard any scriptures Anna it is you who does that as you well know.

Yeah, you do. Many, MANY of them!

John 2: 19? You declared it to be an error on the part of Jesus.
John 8: 58? Re-translated
John 1: 1? Re-translated
Acts 20: 28? You declared that Paul wouldn't have said that - and you tossed it aside.
Luke 2: 1? You declared that Luke was ignorant.
Col 1: 23? You declared that Paul, like Luke, was ignorant.
Rom 1: 8? Poor, ignorant Paul again.
Col 1: 16-17? Re-translated
Acts 11: 26? You stated that it meant "called by some Greek oracle."
Mark 1: 14-15? You stated that "at hand" meant "in God's eyes".
Mark 9: 1? You told us that that referred to the transfiguration six days later! THEN,
Col 1: 13 To top it off, you told us that although Paul was in the kingdom, he wasn't really in the kingdom!

Now that's just a sampling of the real Jehovah's Witness "take" on scripture. It's one re-writing, twisting, and contorting after another.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
reborn_forever
Posts: 4
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9/24/2015 2:38:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

Sure I do.

Please provide the specific verses you are referring to below!

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

God removed His hand of protection upon this Old Covenant people and the Romans set foot on that sacred ground of the temple as per the curses of the covenant. Josephus records the events:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...
http://www.preteristarchive.com...

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Book VI, Chapter VI, Section 1 (Partial)

How The Romans Carried Their Ensigns To The Temple,
And Made Joyful Acclamations to Titus.

1. And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings lying round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple* (1) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus Imperator (2), with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value.


The Romans surrounding Israel and Jerusalem was an abomination to this OT people, per their covenant curses. The burning of the Temple was an abomination to the Jews. Titus trampling the temple grounds was an abomination.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Here is one opportunity in which those in the city had chance to flee, as recorded by Josephus:

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

There is also reference to many fleeing to Pella.

http://www.preteristarchive.com...

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

No, He came in the manner the Father came in judgment to the disobedient and with reward to those waiting Him per Matthew 16:27-28.

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

Yes, per many citation in the NT which said they were. I have already listed these for you on numerous occasions. Jesus told His disciples that they would preach the gospel throughout the world and that He would be with them until the end of the age per Matthew 28:19-20. Paul in numerous passages says that the gospel has been preached in all the world per Colossians 1:5-6, 23 as one example. You have to understand what Jesus meant by world in the context of the first century audience. They knew the world as the Roman Empire, as per Luke:

Luke 2:1
[ Jesus" Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.


That is what they knew of the inhabited earth, the Roman Empire.

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Josephus reiterates that this was that great tribulation, which confirms Scripture. Daniel also said it was upon his people. Who were his people? They were an Old Covenant people.

PREFACE, Section 1 (Entire)

1. Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of (1); both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affair themselves, have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by heresay , and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those things that were then present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humour of flattery to the Romans, or of a hatred to the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes ecomiums, but nowhere the accurate truth of the facts, I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our own country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; I, Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work.]

PRETERIST PERSPECTIVES

1. Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all" wars "ever heard of" (Like Christ -Matthew 24:21). According to the Preterist view, no matter what amount of bloodshed a war may produce today, the divine retribution and covenantal elements of this war will forever remain unique.


Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it speaks of things that applied to this OT people who existed in covenant with God until that covenant was completely removed in AD 70.

The Old Covenant continues today to all those who don't listen to the voice of the Lord and obey His commandments. The New Covenant is revealed to those who listen to the Lord and testify in written and spoken words that the Lord puts in their minds. The servants learn that the New Covenant will be revealed to ALL God's people after all the inhabitants of this world have been destroyed.

I'm on my phone so that is enough for now, but I may add more objections to your view later.

I don't have time to get into detail here either. I work tonight.

Peter : :
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,122
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9/24/2015 4:19:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

There are people other than yourself that believe Daniel is a prophecy?! Shocker! Seriously, though, paraphrase your sources. I'm not reading all of that.

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

Sure I do.

Please provide the specific verses you are referring to below!

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

The Romans surrounding Israel and Jerusalem was an abomination to this OT people, per their covenant curses. The burning of the Temple was an abomination to the Jews. Titus trampling the temple grounds was an abomination.

Matthew 24:15-16

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Jerusalem was not the holy place. The holy place was the area outside of the holy of holies within the temple.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Here is one opportunity in which those in the city had chance to flee, as recorded by Josephus:

You haven't established a valid AoD yet. Any explanation you provide will also need to allow for a window when the Jews can escape. We know historically, there was no opportunity for the Jews to flee Jerusalem by the time the Romans reached the Temple. Jerusalem was surrounded. On this alone, your interpretation of prophecy fails.

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

No, He came in the manner the Father came in judgment to the disobedient and with reward to those waiting Him per Matthew 16:27-28.

Well, that's either prophecy unfulfilled or a failure of it. Oops.

Acts 1:11

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

Yes, per many citation in the NT which said they were. I have already listed these for you on numerous occasions. Jesus told His disciples that they would preach the gospel throughout the world and that He would be with them until the end of the age per Matthew 28:19-20. Paul in numerous passages says that the gospel has been preached in all the world per Colossians 1:5-6, 23 as one example. You have to understand what Jesus meant by world in the context of the first century audience.

Words have specific meanings, no? What does "every creature under heaven" mean to you, Peter? When exactly did the apostles reach the Americas in the first century? If we take the words as they read, then your interpretation of prophecy fails again.

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Josephus reiterates that this was that great tribulation, which confirms Scripture. Daniel also said it was upon his people. Who were his people? They were an Old Covenant people.

Josephus may be able to speak for history in his time, but not in ours. Clearly, the Holocaust was far worse than the siege of Jerusalem.

Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it speaks of things that applied to this OT people who existed in covenant with God until that covenant was completely removed in AD 70.

The condition of the churches in Revelation harmonize better with the late date. Consider Laodicea which was almost completely destroyed by an earthquake in 60. According to your hypothesis, sometime before AD 68 (Revelation would need to be written before all the fireworks started), Laodicea managed to rebuild and become wealthy. The condition of the churches in Revelation is particularly damning to your early date. ...and that is only one reason why most Biblical scholars accept a late date.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
annanicole
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9/24/2015 5:44:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

I'll try to answer these concisely.

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

It occurred when the abomination connected with and as a result of the desolation of the city entered the temple, or temple complex. This would have been when the Roman legions with their symbols of paganism entered the temple. One might speculate and get more specific, but I think such would be mere guessing.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Jerusalem? No, those who believed Jesus presumably would have already left. Nobody was able to "flee Jerusalem" by that point. Judea? Yes. "See" in the passage, as in many others, simply means "to know". I think it a little absurd to contend that Jesus meant (1) when your city is totally surrounded, (2) when you have been under siege for months, then (3) when you literally see with your own eyes, the Romans in the temple .... THEN RUN! That's silly. The statements connected with the abomination of desolation are directed to those outside the walls of the city, i. e. in greater Judea.

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

Not in AD 70. The literal 2nd coming is yet future.

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

I'd prefer the word oikemene to eliminate confusion, real or contrived. So the answer is "yes".

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Yes. It wasn't the "greatest" by some standards of measure - length, death count, etc, but on the whole, yes.

Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it was written during the reign of Nero, most likely around AD 56-58. It could not have been penned prior to AD 54.

*** The questions were not directed at me, but you had said that you do not know exactly what I believe, so I provided concise - and I believe very defensible - answers. Of course, I didn't bother to footnote any of it, or make any arguments.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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9/24/2015 12:09:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 5:44:21 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

I'll try to answer these concisely.

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

It occurred when the abomination connected with and as a result of the desolation of the city entered the temple, or temple complex. This would have been when the Roman legions with their symbols of paganism entered the temple. One might speculate and get more specific, but I think such would be mere guessing.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Jerusalem? No, those who believed Jesus presumably would have already left. Nobody was able to "flee Jerusalem" by that point. Judea? Yes. "See" in the passage, as in many others, simply means "to know". I think it a little absurd to contend that Jesus meant (1) when your city is totally surrounded, (2) when you have been under siege for months, then (3) when you literally see with your own eyes, the Romans in the temple .... THEN RUN! That's silly. The statements connected with the abomination of desolation are directed to those outside the walls of the city, i. e. in greater Judea.

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

Not in AD 70. The literal 2nd coming is yet future.

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

I'd prefer the word oikemene to eliminate confusion, real or contrived. So the answer is "yes".

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Yes. It wasn't the "greatest" by some standards of measure - length, death count, etc, but on the whole, yes.

Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it was written during the reign of Nero, most likely around AD 56-58. It could not have been penned prior to AD 54.

Again you are making an assumption that fits in with your doctrine.

There is a great deal of dispute about when it was written with some preferring a much later date of around 95-98 CE.

I find it very telling that whenever something is in dispute you always come down in favour of your man made doctrine, despite what scripture may or may not have to say on the subject.

Tradition, reliable or not, states that it was written during the reign of Domitian, whose reign it is widely believed John was exiled to Patmos during.

Of course you are forced to believe in an earlier date, simply because your false doctrine insists that it has been fulfilled, despite the scriptural and historical evidence that it has most definitely not been.

Whilst this is not definitive proof, the article in Wikipedia is interesting reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org... which claims that the evidence appears to confirm that later date, giving a link to a Bible commentator called Stuckenbruck, Loren T. (2003). "Revelation". In Dunn, James D. G.; Rogerson, John William. Eerdmans Commentary on the Bible. Eerdmans.

As I always I do not rely on the works of men, but since both history and scripture confirm that little if any of Revelation has been fulfilled, I personally also prefer the later date for it's writing.

Of course, you dare not admit to that without admitting that your doctrine is false, which is why you are far more definite about the earlier date than you have an justification for being.

It is such a shame that for all your profession of reliance on scripture, you do not put scripture ahead of doctrine as the JWS and I do.

Your attitude betrays your knowledge of the weakness of your doctrine when faced with scripture and the record of history. Especially when you frequently have to resort to calling any who disagree with you "Tards".

.

*** The questions were not directed at me, but you had said that you do not know exactly what I believe, so I provided concise - and I believe very defensible - answers. Of course, I didn't bother to footnote any of it, or make any arguments.

It matters not who the questions were directed to, this is a public forum, and all are welcome to comment.
MadCornishBiker
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9/24/2015 12:16:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 4:19:30 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 9/23/2015 7:10:55 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
Peter, Daniel was written after the events it records as prophecy.

Most academic scholars who study it believe that it was actually composed about 150 years before the time of Jesus, much later than the Babylonian exile.

http://www.pbs.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

http://www.tektonics.org...

There are people other than yourself that believe Daniel is a prophecy?! Shocker! Seriously, though, paraphrase your sources. I'm not reading all of that.

As far as the rest in the NT, it is simply a matter of post diction. Plus, you cannot say prophecy has been completely and accurately fulfilled when you have no explanation for many parts of it.

Sure I do.

Please provide the specific verses you are referring to below!

For example, consider the following in a 70 AD context:

How did the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) occur IN the temple?

The Romans surrounding Israel and Jerusalem was an abomination to this OT people, per their covenant curses. The burning of the Temple was an abomination to the Jews. Titus trampling the temple grounds was an abomination.

Matthew 24:15-16

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Jerusalem was not the holy place. The holy place was the area outside of the holy of holies within the temple.

Were the Jews able to flee Jerusalem when the AoD occurred?

Here is one opportunity in which those in the city had chance to flee, as recorded by Josephus:

You haven't established a valid AoD yet. Any explanation you provide will also need to allow for a window when the Jews can escape. We know historically, there was no opportunity for the Jews to flee Jerusalem by the time the Romans reached the Temple. Jerusalem was surrounded. On this alone, your interpretation of prophecy fails.

Did Jesus return as he left (bodily)?

No, He came in the manner the Father came in judgment to the disobedient and with reward to those waiting Him per Matthew 16:27-28.

Well, that's either prophecy unfulfilled or a failure of it. Oops.

Acts 1:11

11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Were the Gospels preached throughout the world?

Yes, per many citation in the NT which said they were. I have already listed these for you on numerous occasions. Jesus told His disciples that they would preach the gospel throughout the world and that He would be with them until the end of the age per Matthew 28:19-20. Paul in numerous passages says that the gospel has been preached in all the world per Colossians 1:5-6, 23 as one example. You have to understand what Jesus meant by world in the context of the first century audience.

Words have specific meanings, no? What does "every creature under heaven" mean to you, Peter? When exactly did the apostles reach the Americas in the first century? If we take the words as they read, then your interpretation of prophecy fails again.

Was the siege of the temple the "greatest distress" unrivaled since the beginning of time until the end?

Josephus reiterates that this was that great tribulation, which confirms Scripture. Daniel also said it was upon his people. Who were his people? They were an Old Covenant people.

Josephus may be able to speak for history in his time, but not in ours. Clearly, the Holocaust was far worse than the siege of Jerusalem.

Did the Book of Revelation exist before these events?

Yes, it speaks of things that applied to this OT people who existed in covenant with God until that covenant was completely removed in AD 70.

The condition of the churches in Revelation harmonize better with the late date. Consider Laodicea which was almost completely destroyed by an earthquake in 60. According to your hypothesis, sometime before AD 68 (Revelation would need to be written before all the fireworks started), Laodicea managed to rebuild and become wealthy. The condition of the churches in Revelation is particularly damning to your early date. ...and that is only one reason why most Biblical scholars accept a late date.

Everything harmonises better with the later date, even tradition holds that it was written during the reign of Domitian as this, not overly reliable article in Wikipedia shows. https://en.wikipedia.org...

The article does have a large range of references about the subject, but to be frank I always prefer the evidence firstly of scripture and secondly of history, both of which combine to support the later date, between 91 and 98 CE, probably in the middle of that period.

The problem for those who hold to an earlier date is that the only reason they have for that earlier date is that they have to believe that to fit in with their doctrine. Therefore they change John's exile to Patmos to during the reign of Nero, who would have been more likely to have had John executed than exiled.

However they would be far better advised to tailor their doctrine to scripture as I and the JWs do, rather than tailor scripture, and indeed history, to their doctrine.
MadCornishBiker
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9/24/2015 12:46:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 11:07:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/23/2015 9:10:11 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Yeah, you do. Many, MANY of them!

No Anna I do not discard any, I simply understand them as scripture portrays them to be.

John 2: 19? You declared it to be an error on the part of Jesus.

Which is confirmed by both John 20-21 and Luke 24, as well a 1 Peter 3:18,19.

John 8: 58? Re-translated

No not re-translated. An alternative translation selected which has been arrived at by more honest translators, and which fits better with the context, as well as makes more grammatical sense.

John 1: 1? Re-translated

No not re-translated. An alternative translation selected which has been arrived at by more honest translators, and which fits better with the context, as well as makes more grammatical sense.

Acts 20: 28? You declared that Paul wouldn't have said that - and you tossed it aside.

No I simply pointed out that it is impossible for it to be God's own blood since God has never had blood to shed, therefore it should read "the blood of his own son".

That is not casting it aside as you want people to believe, merely pointing out that the wording of the translation must be wrong, because scripture does not support it.

God's word has to be consistent since it is indeed God's word, if it is not, and Acts 20:28 worded that way is not, then it is the passage that is wrong, not the whole of scripture as your preferred reading suggests.

Luke 2: 1? You declared that Luke was ignorant.

No, I declared that Caesar Augustus was being a braggart. Luke accurately recorded what Caesar Augustus decreed.

Col 1: 23? You declared that Paul, like Luke, was ignorant.

Ignorant is your word. He was less ignorant than most in those times, but did he know the real truth of what he said? Of course not. The only ones who knew of America, the Pacific Islands etc. were those who actually lived there.

Rom 1: 8? Poor, ignorant Paul again.

Ignorant is your word. He was less ignorant than most in those times, but did he know the real truth of what he said? Of course not. The only ones who knew of America, the Pacific Islands etc. were those who actually lived there.

Col 1: 16-17? Re-translated

No, not retranslated at all, and the addition of the word "other" makes no difference to the meaning of the scripture, it is still true for obvious reasons that Christ assisted his father in creating everything other than himself.

Acts 11: 26? You stated that it meant "called by some Greek oracle."

I have put that forward as a possible source, yes, but research in other translations has revealed that the more likely source is simply opposers. If it had come from Jehovah it would not have been rejected as a name and the Brothers would not have been ashamed to bear witness to Jehovah under it.

The very fact that there is not one example of an Apostle calling the Brothers Christians says it all really, but that is bolstered by the facts that:

1: It only gets 3 mentions in scripture. one describing its origin being Antioch, another when it is used in a derogatory sense by an opposer, and a third when the brothers are told not to be ashamed to preach God under that name.

2: There is no example of any Apostles accepting that name or encouraging its use by the brothers.

3: It came via Antioch not Jerusalem. The source of all decrees. Translations are unable to agree on its source.

4: The only name given to the brothers by any Apostle is when Paul calls them "The Israel of God.

Mark 1: 14-15? You stated that "at hand" meant "in God's eyes".

No that is not what I said. I said the time that "at hand" and "soon" cover has to be viewed in teh way Jehovah views it, considering that to him 1,000 years is but a day.

Mark 9: 1? You told us that that referred to the transfiguration six days later! THEN,

That is precisely because it does, and that is all it can possibly refer to without breaching the harmony of scripture, something which to those who know Jehovah's word is unthinkable.

Col 1: 13 To top it off, you told us that although Paul was in the kingdom, he wasn't really in the kingdom!

No I have never said that either. I have always held that Paul was in the Kingdom.


Now that's just a sampling of the real Jehovah's Witness "take" on scripture. It's one re-writing, twisting, and contorting after another.

You really can't help lying can you Anna.

In fact it is because of their love for and trust in Jehovah's word that they use it to help understand it.

Your attitude to scripture is betrayed by the fact that if there is a dispute between scripture and your false doctrine, scripture loses out every time.

It is also betrayed by the fact that you refuse to obey so much of it.

Doctrine is all you really care about Anna, and when it is judged and found wanting as it will, you will be judged and found wanting along with it, unless you do precisely what scripture says regarding your part of Babylon the Great and all of it "Get out of her my people".

Do you remember what Christ said about liars, which is why I cannot lie:

John 8:44
ASV(i) 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

every time you tell the lies you do tell, you are showing that you accept Satan as a father, not Jehovah.

Do you really want that?

I know I don't, hence I do not, cannot lie.

Why do you? Is it pride?

Will you? Or will you go down into Gehenna telling Jehovah he is wrong as you do at the moment?

The choice is yours Anna, and Jehovah, and his son, can forgive just about anything provided you turn away from it in time. Be aware though Anna that deathbed conversions don't count, it is too late to demonstrate its sincerity.
PGA
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9/24/2015 3:45:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 6:01:26 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:01:22 PM, PGA wrote:
At 9/22/2015 6:07:21 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:36:31 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 9/22/2015 5:27:37 PM, Harikrish wrote:

The bible predicted there would be premature masturbaters like you.

Deuteronomy 23:10 New International Version
If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

Yes, this is how low some, not all, Christians will stoop to. Instead of rushing in in defence of their holy book, they'd rather insult and slander the opposition. Seems to be the thing today.

Then you wonder why anti-theism is on the rise. You people obviously give Christianity a bad name. Not that Christianity doesn't deserve one, it most certainly does, just not over a bunch of slandering forum members who cannot be bothered to actually come up with a point.

Members of the Abrahamic faiths have been slandering and even killing each other for centuries. I expect no less of them. It's the most judgemental, self slandering, xenophobic group of individuals on the planet. They create so much ado over nothing. No accurate predictions... only self fulfilling prophesies that the rest of the world is forced to endure and tolerate.

It is true there has always been division between Jews and Arabs. They are of two different faiths even if they trace their ancestry to Abraham. Also, there is confusion on what is done in the name of Christ as opposed to what He commanded. But truth is to be defended against error. To say nothing in regard to falsity is to promote it, so yes, there has always been a battle to preserve truth. Finally, you're doing a pretty good job on judgment yourself! I remember when you first started posting, how sweet and polite you were. Your real disposition and true intolerance towards Scripture and those who support it is revealed! As for self fulfilling prophecy, that is not something that you can logically support. You take as you crutch 17-19 century higher criticism. That is centuries removed from the actual events. What early evidence can you dig up as to when Daniel or the NT gospels were written? And that is just scratching the surface. What logic can you use to dispute the prophesies in question? Give me the manuscripts that show these predictions were written after the fact and that house your alleged changes to fulfill prophecy, otherwise you speak from ignorance.

Peter

I'm sorry Peter. I think in a way I was jaded a while back. There were some things that happened here. You may or may not remember. Most of those people are gone now and that is why I came back. I am trying to get back to what I was before. Please accept my apology if I have hurt you. And thank you for reminding me.

Sorry to hear that.

As for prophesies, I am a skeptic, and yes there is a valid argument that jihads and holy wars are self fulfilling. They have proved to be futile and unfortunate. I've read the histories and realize that they were not always at each others throats. But it is obvious that in today's world the differences are causing serious contempt on both sides. I do not dislike theism. To me it is a philosophy that in some ways helps some people make sense of life. What I question is why would Christians, Muslims and Jews kill and hurt others in the name of god and chalk it up to fulfillment of a prophesy?

When people stand up for what they believe to be true anything can happen. That is why it is important to correctly interpret Scripture. All this talk of the "last days" and biblical fulfillment in our generation I find misleading. I don't think Scripture teaches that if one would pay attention to context, audience of address and time statements.

And Jesus made Himself the issue. Mohammed or Moses did not.

Peter
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9/24/2015 4:22:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:33:48 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM, PGA wrote:

First of all, can you give me an example of anyone who is able to predict numerous events with certainty as per my statement that is bold and underlined above?

We can't predict the future with any kind of accuracy, Peter. No one can.

No one but God.

Did both the OT and NT predict the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which would be in AD 70? Did both testaments predict the end of the Old Covenant age?


Daniel 2:40 (NASB)
Rome

40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.


Sorry, but NOWHERE in Daniel 2regarding Nebuchadnezzar's dream is there any reference to Rome. You need to understand that predictions have to be accurate, not generalized.

You do not recognize the time indicators point to the Roman Empire. The theme throughout Daniel dates itself to the 1st century. Jesus came to bring the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, as per Daniel 2:44. The prophesies address an OT people, Daniel's people. Daniel is an OT prophet. He keeps referring to "his people" who are OT people. That people did not exist after AD 70 because the stipulation and requirements they agreed to no longer existed. The temple worship, sacrificial system, priesthood, genealogies, feast days were all put to an end. This OT people could no longer meet the requirements of the covenant they made with God.

Daniel lists four empires or kingdoms that would affect this OT people and within the scope of the Book of Daniel the first three kingdoms are identified. The fourth kingdom, in which the long awaited Messiah would be put to death in, is identified in many places in Daniel's writings, such as Daniel 9:24-27 (very specific prophesies that can only apply to Jesus Christ during the Roman rule) as well as Daniel 12 can fit no other kingdom that governed or conquered Daniel's Old Covenant people.

Jesus, the Son, during His earthly ministry, points to the prophesies of Daniel when giving His disciples the time frame from the question they asked Him in Matthew 24:3, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [a]end of the age?" He immediately applies these things to them and to their generation.

The Book of Revelation reiterates many of the themes of Daniel over and over again, and it applies them to this OT people. None other fits the bill. This can be argued for most effectively by paying attention to the tense and time statements as well as the numerous references to this OT people and the quotes and citations taken from the OT regarding this OT people. Again, it instructs John to measure the temple and speaks of where the Lord was slain or crucified. It speaks of 144,000 from the twelve tribes, 12,000 from each tribe, of them that pierced Him will look upon Him and mourn, of the kings (Caesars), one who still is at the time of writing, of Babylon, the city that killed all the prophets and saints sent to it. This is a reference to Jerusalem, who Jesus accredits as killing all those sent to her (Matthew 23:31-38). These things could not be spelled out more clearly.


Daniel 2:44 (NASB)
The Divine Kingdom

44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.


Sorry Peter, but there is a very good chance your religion will be gone in the future.

No it won't. It is a kingdom without end. Scripture confirms as much! Why would I believe your subjective viewpoint? Prove it true. You can't. You are so limited in your ability to prove anything because you don't know the truth, you just think you do and that without certainty. God is necessary for certainty. You can't even logically deny Him His existence.

Peter
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9/24/2015 4:36:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:33:48 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/23/2015 4:38:19 PM, PGA wrote:
Daniel 7:16-27 (NASB)

16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come."

19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others,....23 "Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."


Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 12 (NASB)
The Time of the End

12 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11 From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."

Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)
Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Matthew 24:1-3 (NASB)
Signs of Christ"s Return

24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)


Sorry Peter, but Scriptures has failed to provide accurate predictions. A friend of mine years ago stated he didn't want to buy a computer until it contained a least dual processors, which is something that wasn't on anyone's radar back then. His predictions were far more accurate than Scriptures.

What you failed to do is exegete and examine these specific Scriptures as to what they say and reveal. You just asserted as much. That is all most atheists seem capable of doing - asserting. Get into the meat of the passages I provided and let's see how those assertions stand up. Can you logically support your position or do you just want to make assertions all day long?

What I have stated in this post and the previous one to you I believe I can logically support. I believe your viewpoint will be shown as inconsistent and false. I leave you with that challenge. Take it or take you groundless assertions and apply them to someone who doesn't understand them for what they are.

Peter