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why not Micheal?

Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/23/2015 6:01:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?

I thought Micheal was one of the three little pigs. Oh sorry, wrong fairy tale.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
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9/23/2015 6:12:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 6:01:57 PM, desmac wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?

I thought Micheal was one of the three little pigs. Oh sorry, wrong fairy tale.

And people wonder why the religion forum is considered the worst on the site...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
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9/23/2015 6:20:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?

For this to be true, the JWs must use a bastardized translation of the bible, believe that the Church immediately fell into apostasy (for which there is no proof), make Jesus into a liar and lessen the nature of God.

It is flagrant error from top to bottom.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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9/23/2015 6:28:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?

My position is that angels do not exist and therefore cannot take an earthly form. Jesus may have lived, and probably did according to many secular non biased historians. I will not argue his existence. There is still so much debate on the subject. I lean towards the theory that he was a teacher (prophet of the time) and is not much different than say, Buddha. The difference is that he claimed to be a god and was of a theistic persuasion, whereas Buddha was not. Much of what Jesus is reported to have said in the Bible was philosophical. Some of it was still very heavily influenced by monotheism.

As for angels, they seem to have the attributes of demigods. Correct me if I am wrong. But I see the mention of angels in the Bible as going against a monotheistic belief system which invalidates their presence in the Bible.

JWs, just like many modern religions have made some very biased interpretations. I think it's safe to say, most people don't actually read the Bible.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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9/23/2015 6:33:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

I don't hold this view becuase angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Micheal equals Jesus?
Plenty of scriptural proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel.

http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/23/2015 7:09:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

Well it isn't agree that there ever was such a thing as a Godhead, certainly scripture doesn't mention one.

It mention's a father, Jehovah, and an only begotten son, who is almost certainly Michael, and who came to the earth to become the Christ.

That is all, apart from all the Angels they created working together.


I don't hold this view because angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

You are right, God was not created, but his only begotten son was. That is what makes him only begotten and of course what makes him a son. What underlines the only begotten part is a that the son was the only one he created all by himself. Everything else was created, as Colossians 1:13 tells us, through that son.

It is also that which makes him the Archangel, and since there would be no need for two Chief Angels that makes him Michael, the only Archangel in scripture.

It really is as simple as that.

That may not be the doctrinal view, but it is the scriptural view, therefore it is the one the JWs stand by.


Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Michael equals Jesus?

Probably a few, mostly those who have fallen for the Trinitarian / Godhead scam. A scam initiated by the original and master scammer, Satan.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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9/23/2015 9:32:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/23/2015 7:09:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/23/2015 5:40:07 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I seen some speak dismissively of JW's who equate the Archangel Micheal with Jesus.

Isn't it agreed upon that Jesus was present in the God head before Earthly presence. Don't the explainations from the JW's at least are interesting?

Well it isn't agree that there ever was such a thing as a Godhead, certainly scripture doesn't mention one.

It mention's a father, Jehovah, and an only begotten son, who is almost certainly Michael, and who came to the earth to become the Christ.

That is all, apart from all the Angels they created working together.


I don't hold this view because angels are created beings God is not. But the little I have read on the matter strikes me as interesting or entertaining speculation.

You are right, God was not created, but his only begotten son was. That is what makes him only begotten and of course what makes him a son. What underlines the only begotten part is a that the son was the only one he created all by himself. Everything else was created, as Colossians 1:13 tells us, through that son.

It is also that which makes him the Archangel, and since there would be no need for two Chief Angels that makes him Michael, the only Archangel in scripture.

It really is as simple as that.

That may not be the doctrinal view, but it is the scriptural view, therefore it is the one the JWs stand by.


Anyone have a strong criticism or support for Michael equals Jesus?

Probably a few, mostly those who have fallen for the Trinitarian / Godhead scam. A scam initiated by the original and master scammer, Satan.

Where is your scriptural view that Michae is Jesus?

Michael is no Jesus

1. The notion that archangel Michael is Jesus was first introduced by the Adventist. Neither White nor Russell of the JW were the first to say this. They borrowed a bad idea and stayed with it. It would remain a quiet or secret matter for more that 200 years before Calvin.

2. Daniel refers to Jesus as the Anointed One and not as Michael or an archangel.

Daniel 9:25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens," and sixty-two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two "sevens," the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

After the rejection of Jesus and his death the abomination of destruction to come will be led by Michael the chief of the angels. Jesus being God cannot participate in the killing and destruction. He uses his angels led by Michael.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

3. Only Jesus is referred to as the firstborn of God and never Michael.

Hebrews 1:6
Verse Concepts
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

1 Thessalonians 4:16

4. Jesus will descend from heaven with his army of angels led by veteran archangel Michael. Michael was used by God to battle satan before.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Colossians 1:15 ESV

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

5. No angel was ever called the son of man. Jesus was interchangeably the son of god and the son of man. Angels have always remained angels and distinct.

6. The angels will be under Jesus and accompany him always.

Matthew 25:31 ESV / 6 helpful votes

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

7. Jesus rebukes Satan with his own authority where as Michael does it in the name of God.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

8. Jesus will use the angels to do his fighting and dirty work. That is what angels are for.

Matthew 13:41 ESV / 4 helpful votes

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,

Revelations 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

9. Jesus is superior to all the angels.

Hebrews 1:

The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father"[a]?
Or again,

"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God"s angels worship him."[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire."[d]
8 But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."[e]
10 He also says,

"In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

10. Apologetic Press rehash some of my interpretations.

"The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus" superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, "He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels" (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, "the appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2). "All authority" has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers "have been made subject to Him" (1 Peter 3:22). "In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him" (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, "for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5, RSV)."