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(Truce) Religions and Homosexuality

tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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9/24/2015 3:09:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Greetings!

NOTE

This is a Truce Thread [http://www.debate.org...], thus is subject to all codes of conduct and other such restrictions mandated by the Truce Initiative. The rules are:

+ The purposes of the [Truce] initiative shall be sought after.
+ The format of the [Truce] initiative shall be respected.
+ There shall be no insults. Anyone who makes a hateful comment (such as saying, "idiot") shall either apologize, or will be subject to the same insult from the whole community.
+ Every post shall start with "greetings" and shall end with "peace".
+ Every off-topic post shall be ignored. Every troll shall be reported by the whole community.
+ Every reference shall be sourced when requested. Every claim shall be established when demanded.
+ Every inquiry shall be assisted by the concerned party. Every inquiry post shall specify the relevant mentions: "inquiry", or "issue" ; and "party concerned."
+ Every criticism shall be substantiated and justified. Every critical post shall specify the relevant mentions: "claim", "evidence" ; and "justification" or "reasoning".


ORIGINAL POST

Various world religions critique homosexuality. I'm interested to know - how many of you oppose same-sex marriage/homosexuality for religious reasons? How would you substantiate that? I'm interested in hearing strong arguments regarding the same.

~ Peace ~
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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9/24/2015 4:16:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 3:09:12 PM, tejretics wrote:
Greetings!

NOTE

This is a Truce Thread [http://www.debate.org...], thus is subject to all codes of conduct and other such restrictions mandated by the Truce Initiative. The rules are:

+ The purposes of the [Truce] initiative shall be sought after.
+ The format of the [Truce] initiative shall be respected.
+ There shall be no insults. Anyone who makes a hateful comment (such as saying, "idiot") shall either apologize, or will be subject to the same insult from the whole community.
+ Every post shall start with "greetings" and shall end with "peace".
+ Every off-topic post shall be ignored. Every troll shall be reported by the whole community.
+ Every reference shall be sourced when requested. Every claim shall be established when demanded.
+ Every inquiry shall be assisted by the concerned party. Every inquiry post shall specify the relevant mentions: "inquiry", or "issue" ; and "party concerned."
+ Every criticism shall be substantiated and justified. Every critical post shall specify the relevant mentions: "claim", "evidence" ; and "justification" or "reasoning".


ORIGINAL POST

Various world religions critique homosexuality. I'm interested to know - how many of you oppose same-sex marriage/homosexuality for religious reasons? How would you substantiate that? I'm interested in hearing strong arguments regarding the same.

~ Peace ~

Greetings!

It has been observed through countless threads and posts on this subject that no studies or research of any kind supports the views of those who criticize homosexuality and gay marriage, and that all criticisms originate from Moses law.

Peace.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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9/24/2015 4:21:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 4:16:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Greetings!

I'm not looking for empirical research with this post. Rather, I'm looking for a *religious* justification for the alleged immorality of same-sex marriage, e.g. a religious/philosophical/social justification for Moses' law.

~Peace~
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/24/2015 9:52:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 3:09:12 PM, tejretics wrote:

Hello,

- I am leaving a comment here so that I can post later on, when I have more time.

Peace.
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Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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10/10/2015 9:18:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 3:09:12 PM, tejretics wrote:

I'm interested in hearing strong arguments regarding the same.

Greetings,

- Being a muslim, I obviously do not recognise same-sex marriage in cases where:
1. The parties concerned are muslims.
2. The nations concerned are Muslim.
- Other than that, I frankly do not care. The issue becomes futile otherwise, for, ONE: same-sex marriage is an institution born out of a specific worldview, a specific society & a specific legal framework, thus arguing against it entails arguing against these causes first. TWO, adultery & homosexual acts have the same considerations in Islam, clearly the former is more rampant than the latter.

- Islam considers any sexual relationship outside a sound marriage between a man a woman to be invalid & in some cases deserving punishment. To elaborate, Shari'a is founded on preserving 6 Sacred Necessities, namely:
1. Religion.
2. Life.
3. Intellect.
4. Lineage.
5. Wealth.
6. Honour.
=> What preserving some of these entails is obvious. Such as, preserving Life entails the prohibition of murder, preserving Wealth entails the prohibition of theft, preserving the Intellect entails the prohibition of alcohol or drug use, preserving Religion entails the prohibition of coerced conversion, preserving Honour entails the prohibition of slander, defamation & such...etc.

- The preservation of Lineage entails the prohibition of unlawful sexual acts among other things, such as: adoption, renouncing children, renouncing parents, accusing people of unlawful sexual acts...etc. This preservation also entails a number of obligations, such as: right to parents (biological), soundness of marriage, custody & care for children...etc.

- Long story short, a Muslim society is designed to accommodate sound real families where every party has its essential rights, from father to mother to child. Family is an extremely important thing in Islam, & so is everything that goes with it. For instance, adopting a child that is not yours is categorically prohibited in Islam, as is renouncing a child that is yours. Although taking care of orphans is equally enjoined as well.

- Therefore, artificial families of any sort are undesirable, some worse than others. A family based on an unsound marriage, such as a marriage without a contract, is undesirable. A child born out of wedlock is also undesirable, not the person, the act! A child raised by other than his own father, unless under extreme circumstances, is also undesirable, again the act not the person!

- The reasons & purposes of such design is to prevent wide scale problems that arise from negligence in these directives. For instance, a relationship without a contract means there are no guaranteed rights for any of its parties, including any future children. A child without both or one of his actual parents is a severe crime which will likely lead to serious problems for him in the future...etc.

- In conclusion, same-sex marriage have absolutely no place in such a design or such a society.
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* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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10/10/2015 9:18:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/24/2015 3:09:12 PM, tejretics wrote:

Various world religions critique homosexuality. I'm interested to know - how many of you oppose same-sex marriage/homosexuality for religious reasons? How would you substantiate that? I'm interested in hearing strong arguments regarding the same.

~ Peace ~

- As for Homosexuality, I've talked about it before. So, I am just gonna copy/paste what I wrote. Basically, Islam views Homosexuality from 4 perspectives:

.
I. Khuntha (= Hermaphrodite): someone physically man & woman

- Generally, a Khuntha is treated as the sex he/she is evolving towards. If he/she is becoming more & more feminine, then, in Shari'a, she is a woman. If he/she is becoming more & more masculine, then, in Shari'a, he is a man. If not, then there are a lot of rules how to identify the Khuntha, thus there are two types:

1. Khuntha Bayna (= discernible type): in which case the sex can be determined based on some guidelines, or medically. The Prophet (pbuh) mentioned that if the hermaphrodite has menstruation, then she is a female ; if not, then she/he is decided by from which genitalia (male or female) the person urinates . . .

2. Khuntha Mushkila (= problematic type, ambiguous): in which case there is no clear gender. There are also a lot of rules about this situation. . .

.
II. Mukhannath (= effeminate man): a man who acts, walks & talks like women. Mukhannath has 2 statuses:

1. Mukhannath bil-Khilq'a (= naturally effeminate man): a man who naturally acts like women, has a voice that naturally resembles that of women, & do not desire them (sexually). In that case, he is treated as a woman in some cases & as a man in other cases. For instance, he is allowed to see women without their hijab:
* "And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, [. . .] or those male attendants having no physical desire [. . .]" (24:31)

- That also brings us to transgenders who are not physically mixed. Transgenders are talked about a lot in the books of Fiq"h (Shari"a Law). Long story short, if the person"s sex is not clearly determined, then he is treated as a "Khuntha Mushkila". If not, then he is treated a as "Mukhannath", in which case:
1. The person has to get treatment for his condition until it"s resolved, or at least appeased. Which was the usual practice throughout Islamic History.
2. If not, then there is the sex reassignment surgery, which is a recent solution. The Prophet (pbuh) prohibited mutilating the body (human or animal), but he permitted it only for medical treatment. Sex change surgery falls under the category of mutilation, that"s why there is currently a difference of opinion among muslim scholars on whether this operation may be considered a medial treatment or not, depending on the different opinions of doctors who treat these cases.

2. Mukhannath bit-Ta"ammud (= effeminate man by choice): a man who acts like women by choice. In this case, he is considered a Fasiq' (Immoral, Lewd), & is treated like one. For instance, unlike the previous case, he is not allowed to see women without their Hijab:
* Narrated Aisha:
'A Mukhannath used to enter upon the wives of Prophet. They (the people) counted him among those who were free of physical needs. One day the Prophet entered upon us when he (the Mukhannath) was with one of his wives, and was describing the qualities of a woman, saying: "When she comes forward, she comes forward with four (folds in her stomach), and when she goes backward, she goes backward with eight (folds in her stomach)". The Prophet said: "Do I not see that this (man) knows what here lies". Then they (the wives) observed veil from him.'
=> When the Prophet (pbuh) knew that the Mukhanath had an eye for women, he prevented him from seeing his wives, for he is a Mukhannath by choice, & thus Fasiq".

.
III. Ma'bun: a man who formerly had homosexual practices, & presently a repentant, or a homosexual who never acted on his homosexuality. He is treated, in Shari'a, as an ordinary person, with minor differences such as:
> He is allowed to lead the prayer, but it's discouraged to pray behind him. (this depends on which school of law we are talking about).

.
IV. Luti = Sodomite: a man who engages in homosexual practices. In this case, according to Shari'a, he should receive the death penalty if the act is done in public or in open settings. Specifically, if:
1. Four righteous witnesses testified to simultaneously seeing the actual penetration, without any of the four withdrawing their testimony.
2. He confessed himself 4 times without withdrawing his confession up until the execution of his sentence.

=> The details of this punishment depends largely on which legal school we are talking about. For example:
> In the Hanafi School, the person is not punished the first time he is proven to be guilty of sodomy, but he is the second time.
> In the Shafi"i School, if proven guilty (i.e. 4 righteous witnesses &/or confession) the person is punished by 100 lashes if they are not married, & by stoning if they are. (exactly like adultery & fornication).
. . . etc.

.
- Generally, whatever people do behind closed doors is between them & God, unless there are public consequences. That"s why there is a high restriction on the number of witnesses. If 4 righteous people simultaneously saw the penetration, it could only mean it was done in public or in an open space.

- In Shari'a, if someone has sexual urges (heterosexual, homosexual, zoophilic, necrophilic. . .) then he should suppress them, although he is the inclination alone is not a sin. All sexual practices outside Marriage are equally unlawful.

- Lesbianism is treated entirely different than Homosexuality, & there is no death penalty involved.

- Calling someone 'mukhannath' or 'homosexual' is prohibited & also punishable:
* The Prophet said: "If one man says to another: 'O effeminate one!' give him twenty lashes. And if one man says to another: 'O homosexual!' give him twenty lashes."

=> The idea here is that one must not assume that another person is such & such until proven, nor must he insult him, even if proven, unless to state the fact (in court & such).

- Accusing someone of sodomy without the presence of 4 righteous witnesses to the fact is prohibited & punishable by 80 lashes.

.

...etc...etc.

Peace
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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