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The Penalty in Islam for Apostacy is Death

Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/25/2015 10:17:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be...

Response: "I came not for peace, but a sword...."

Biblical Jesus Matthew 10:34
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.
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desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/26/2015 12:24:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 10:17:46 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be...

Response: "I came not for peace, but a sword...."

Biblical Jesus Matthew 10:34

Or do you come because "children like sex"?
uncung
Posts: 3,433
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9/26/2015 4:07:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be...

and which stand point is better regarding to apostacy? Richard's or Prophet's?
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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9/26/2015 11:33:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be...

Disgraceful.
Far worse than Jehovah's witnesses' shunning policy, which is already contemptible and despicable on its own.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,679
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9/27/2015 4:41:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

The world economy would probably collapse due to inflation.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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9/27/2015 4:35:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

Funny, I've heard that so many times from believers, yet not once has a believer ever actually criticized and formulated an argument to anything Dawkins has ever said.

At the very least, whenever a public religious figure says something, the reasoned and rationalized arguments in response are plentiful.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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9/27/2015 5:19:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 4:07:26 AM, uncung wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be...

and which stand point is better regarding to apostacy? Richard's or Prophet's?

The camel trader always said, if ya can't make a profit then don't do it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.
Tsar of DDO
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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9/27/2015 5:54:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM, YYW wrote:
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.

Of course not, there are laws against killing people.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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9/27/2015 9:44:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 5:54:19 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM, YYW wrote:
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.

Of course not, there are laws against killing people.

Not everywhere, and the "laws" will be in danger if enough believers of "Sharia law" meld into nonislamic culture.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/27/2015 10:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 4:35:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Funny, I've heard that so many times from believers, yet not once has a believer ever actually criticized and formulated an argument to anything Dawkins has ever said.

- You don't formulate proper arguments against ignorant positions, you just ignore them. I have a reasonable stance on Dawkins, if he speaks about Evolutionary Biology, I do take him seriously, unless he starts speculating. If he speaks about Religion, Philosophy or Metaphysics, I don't take his word for it. It's simply not his thing.

At the very least, whenever a public religious figure says something, the reasoned and rationalized arguments in response are plentiful.

- There are rational & irrational, knowledgeable & ignorant people from both sides, theists & atheists. Dawkins isn't a rational person, in terms of philosophical training & logical aptitude. That doesn't mean that there aren't any rational atheists out there! There are, indeed.
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Yassine
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9/27/2015 10:29:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 4:41:36 AM, UtherPenguin wrote:
At 9/25/2015 11:25:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
- If I had a dollar for every stupid thing Dawkins says, I'd be a billionaire.

The world economy would probably collapse due to inflation.

- Haha! Lol.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/27/2015 11:29:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM, YYW wrote:

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.

- Not entirely true. Apostasy is a big subject in Islamic Law, & it refers to a ton of various things. To summarise, here is what you have to know.

- First of all, Apostasy is categorised in Islamic Law in Hudud (Penalties), & alongside Haraba (Banditry, Terrorism), it is the only political Penalty among all others (including, Murder, Adultery...). Meaning, Apostasy is dealt with by the Wilaya (the regime) or by the Khilafa. To elaborate, there are many systems of authority in Islamic Law. The main systems of authority in Shari'a are 8: Iftaa (Advisory, the body of fuq'aha - jurists - & their schools), Tahkim (Arbitration, the body of judges appointed by the public or parties other than the government), Q'adaa (Judiciary, the body of judges, who are necessarily jurists, appointed by the government), Madhalim (Equity, the body of judges with authority over the government), 'Askar (Military, the body of military command personnel), Hisba (includes: Law Enforcement, Inspection, Monitoring...), Wilaya (Regime, the government & its officials) & finally Khilafah (supreme authority, which is a theoretical/theological system more than it is an applicable one).
=> Point being, Apostasy is generally seen as a potential political offence rather than a civil or criminal one. & thus dealt with directly by the government.
=> Subsequently, the punishment of Apostasy varies a lot depending on circumstances, interior & exterior. It can even be frozen or dropped if the circumstances demand so, or if the government wish it.

- Second of all, although Islamic Law is cool with other beliefs & categorically prohibits any form of coercion of others into Islam, it has an entirely different view of apostates. That's because, the status of the muslim individual in Islamic Law is a little bit complicated. It's called, 'Ismat al-Milah (Inviolability of Faith), which include:
> Allegiance to the religion, that is Islam.
> Allegiance to the community, that is the Ummah.
> Allegiance to the state, that is the Caliphate or what substitutes it.
=> So, Apostasy (or Major Apostasy) can mean the simultaneous rejection of the all these things. That is the classical view of things anyway.
(+) On a similar note, in these modern times, since muslim majority states are mostly secular, Apostasy then would not mean rejection of the state, which might be dealt with differently.

- Third of all, legally, Apostasy & its potential punishments can be observed from several angles,

1. The act itself, which can be measured by 3 criteria:
i. Intensity of apostasy, in the sense of how deviated a person is from the original religion. Major Apostasy means leaving Islam entirely (i.e. denying God, or denying his messengers, or what follows).
ii. Intensity of consequences, in the sense of the repercussions of the act, private, public, rebellious, armed, or traitorous.
iii. Transition, in the sense of conversion, from which religion to which, Christianity to Judaism, Islam to Atheism...

2. The circumstances of the act,
i. Liability, in the sense of religious awareness, mental capacity... of the person prior to the act.
ii. Maturity, in the sense of age & sex of the person committing the act, younger or older than 15, male or female...
iii. Reasonability, in the sense of the tendencies of the apostate, corporative, reasonable, unreasonable, obstinate... etc.
...etc.

3. The current state of affairs, which include a wide number factors: geopolitical, religious, legal, judicial, theological... For instance, apostasy in an unstable state of affairs is not dealt with the same way as in a stable state of affairs.

...etc.

- Anyways, I hope that gave you an idea on how things might actually play out in Shari'a. Sweeping generalisations about Apostasy = Death in Islam is grotesquely stupid. The topic is so vast, detailed & sophisticated, it's no use being brought up in casuals discussion anyways. Unless the person concerned is a jurist, these details are useless.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/28/2015 2:44:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 11:29:28 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM, YYW wrote:

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.

- Not entirely true. Apostasy is a big subject in Islamic Law, & it refers to a ton of various things. To summarise, here is what you have to know.

- First of all, Apostasy is categorised in Islamic Law in Hudud (Penalties), & alongside Haraba (Banditry, Terrorism), it is the only political Penalty among all others (including, Murder, Adultery...). Meaning, Apostasy is dealt with by the Wilaya (the regime) or by the Khilafa. To elaborate, there are many systems of authority in Islamic Law. The main systems of authority in Shari'a are 8: Iftaa (Advisory, the body of fuq'aha - jurists - & their schools), Tahkim (Arbitration, the body of judges appointed by the public or parties other than the government), Q'adaa (Judiciary, the body of judges, who are necessarily jurists, appointed by the government), Madhalim (Equity, the body of judges with authority over the government), 'Askar (Military, the body of military command personnel), Hisba (includes: Law Enforcement, Inspection, Monitoring...), Wilaya (Regime, the government & its officials) & finally Khilafah (supreme authority, which is a theoretical/theological system more than it is an applicable one).
=> Point being, Apostasy is generally seen as a potential political offence rather than a civil or criminal one. & thus dealt with directly by the government.
=> Subsequently, the punishment of Apostasy varies a lot depending on circumstances, interior & exterior. It can even be frozen or dropped if the circumstances demand so, or if the government wish it.

- Second of all, although Islamic Law is cool with other beliefs & categorically prohibits any form of coercion of others into Islam, it has an entirely different view of apostates. That's because, the status of the muslim individual in Islamic Law is a little bit complicated. It's called, 'Ismat al-Milah (Inviolability of Faith), which include:
> Allegiance to the religion, that is Islam.
> Allegiance to the community, that is the Ummah.
> Allegiance to the state, that is the Caliphate or what substitutes it.
=> So, Apostasy (or Major Apostasy) can mean the simultaneous rejection of the all these things. That is the classical view of things anyway.
(+) On a similar note, in these modern times, since muslim majority states are mostly secular, Apostasy then would not mean rejection of the state, which might be dealt with differently.

- Third of all, legally, Apostasy & its potential punishments can be observed from several angles,

1. The act itself, which can be measured by 3 criteria:
i. Intensity of apostasy, in the sense of how deviated a person is from the original religion. Major Apostasy means leaving Islam entirely (i.e. denying God, or denying his messengers, or what follows).
ii. Intensity of consequences, in the sense of the repercussions of the act, private, public, rebellious, armed, or traitorous.
iii. Transition, in the sense of conversion, from which religion to which, Christianity to Judaism, Islam to Atheism...

2. The circumstances of the act,
i. Liability, in the sense of religious awareness, mental capacity... of the person prior to the act.
ii. Maturity, in the sense of age & sex of the person committing the act, younger or older than 15, male or female...
iii. Reasonability, in the sense of the tendencies of the apostate, corporative, reasonable, unreasonable, obstinate... etc.
...etc.

3. The current state of affairs, which include a wide number factors: geopolitical, religious, legal, judicial, theological... For instance, apostasy in an unstable state of affairs is not dealt with the same way as in a stable state of affairs.

...etc.

- Anyways, I hope that gave you an idea on how things might actually play out in Shari'a. Sweeping generalisations about Apostasy = Death in Islam is grotesquely stupid. The topic is so vast, detailed & sophisticated, it's no use being brought up in casuals discussion anyways. Unless the person concerned is a jurist, these details are useless.

You are just trying to be cute or a moderate Muslim. The penalty for apostasy was without any ambiguity death. That was how Islam death with apostates. It was effective and kept Muslims in check. It is also why Muslims take their religion seriously.

" The tomes reference various scholars" works and state that the Quran does not mandate the death sentence explicitly but traditional Islamic jurisprudence based upon the Sunna and hadith do. The Ency. of Islam says it plainly, "In Fikh (jurisprudence), there is unanimity that the male apostate must be put to death." This ruling has been the accepted Islamic law for the last 1400 years."
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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9/28/2015 6:29:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 11:29:28 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/27/2015 5:46:27 PM, YYW wrote:

I agree that mainstream Islam does not penalize apostasy with death but there are some Muslims that do, and there are many other religions that do or have done the same. But again, most mainstream Muslims don't buy into that garbage.

- Not entirely true. Apostasy is a big subject in Islamic Law, & it refers to a ton of various things. To summarise, here is what you have to know.

- First of all, Apostasy is categorised in Islamic Law in Hudud (Penalties), & alongside Haraba (Banditry, Terrorism), it is the only political Penalty among all others (including, Murder, Adultery...). Meaning, Apostasy is dealt with by the Wilaya (the regime) or by the Khilafa. To elaborate, there are many systems of authority in Islamic Law. The main systems of authority in Shari'a are 8: Iftaa (Advisory, the body of fuq'aha - jurists - & their schools), Tahkim (Arbitration, the body of judges appointed by the public or parties other than the government), Q'adaa (Judiciary, the body of judges, who are necessarily jurists, appointed by the government), Madhalim (Equity, the body of judges with authority over the government), 'Askar (Military, the body of military command personnel), Hisba (includes: Law Enforcement, Inspection, Monitoring...), Wilaya (Regime, the government & its officials) & finally Khilafah (supreme authority, which is a theoretical/theological system more than it is an applicable one).
=> Point being, Apostasy is generally seen as a potential political offence rather than a civil or criminal one. & thus dealt with directly by the government.
=> Subsequently, the punishment of Apostasy varies a lot depending on circumstances, interior & exterior. It can even be frozen or dropped if the circumstances demand so, or if the government wish it.

- Second of all, although Islamic Law is cool with other beliefs & categorically prohibits any form of coercion of others into Islam, it has an entirely different view of apostates. That's because, the status of the muslim individual in Islamic Law is a little bit complicated. It's called, 'Ismat al-Milah (Inviolability of Faith), which include:
> Allegiance to the religion, that is Islam.
> Allegiance to the community, that is the Ummah.
> Allegiance to the state, that is the Caliphate or what substitutes it.
=> So, Apostasy (or Major Apostasy) can mean the simultaneous rejection of the all these things. That is the classical view of things anyway.
(+) On a similar note, in these modern times, since muslim majority states are mostly secular, Apostasy then would not mean rejection of the state, which might be dealt with differently.

- Third of all, legally, Apostasy & its potential punishments can be observed from several angles,

1. The act itself, which can be measured by 3 criteria:
i. Intensity of apostasy, in the sense of how deviated a person is from the original religion. Major Apostasy means leaving Islam entirely (i.e. denying God, or denying his messengers, or what follows).
ii. Intensity of consequences, in the sense of the repercussions of the act, private, public, rebellious, armed, or traitorous.
iii. Transition, in the sense of conversion, from which religion to which, Christianity to Judaism, Islam to Atheism...

2. The circumstances of the act,
i. Liability, in the sense of religious awareness, mental capacity... of the person prior to the act.
ii. Maturity, in the sense of age & sex of the person committing the act, younger or older than 15, male or female...
iii. Reasonability, in the sense of the tendencies of the apostate, corporative, reasonable, unreasonable, obstinate... etc.
...etc.

3. The current state of affairs, which include a wide number factors: geopolitical, religious, legal, judicial, theological... For instance, apostasy in an unstable state of affairs is not dealt with the same way as in a stable state of affairs.

...etc.

- Anyways, I hope that gave you an idea on how things might actually play out in Shari'a. Sweeping generalisations about Apostasy = Death in Islam is grotesquely stupid. The topic is so vast, detailed & sophisticated, it's no use being brought up in casuals discussion anyways. Unless the person concerned is a jurist, these details are useless.

Regardless of the perplexity you think exists, why is there any punishment? If you choose to leave, any reprisal seems odd.
kp98
Posts: 729
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9/28/2015 7:48:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Perhaps part of the reason for punishing apostasy is that Islam is theocratic, combining the roles of religion and nation.

In that light apostasy is equivalent to treason - ie the betrayal of one's country - in a non-theocratic system. Treason is - or was until recently - a capital crime everywhere, particularly in times of war and many of the features of Islam reflect its origins at a time war.
Yassine
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9/28/2015 9:22:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 2:44:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:

You are just trying to be cute or a moderate Muslim.

- I am a traditional muslim, through & through.

The penalty for apostasy was without any ambiguity death.

- Was?! What kind of apostasy?

That was how Islam death with apostates. It was effective and kept Muslims in check. It is also why Muslims take their religion seriously.

- All these do indeed play a role.

" The tomes reference various scholars" works and state that the Quran does not mandate the death sentence explicitly but traditional Islamic jurisprudence based upon the Sunna and hadith do. The Ency. of Islam says it plainly, "In Fikh (jurisprudence), there is unanimity that the male apostate must be put to death." This ruling has been the accepted Islamic law for the last 1400 years."

- First of all, this all goes back to what sort of apostasy are we talking about.

- Second of all, there is no such unanimity. Ibn Hazm (d. 456) cited over 25 different opinions of scholars on Major Apostasy, ranging from nothing to death penalty.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/28/2015 9:28:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 6:29:24 PM, TBR wrote:

Regardless of the perplexity you think exists, why is there any punishment? If you choose to leave, any reprisal seems odd.

- You're starting from the wrong worldview. If you transpose these things onto an entirely different framework (yours), you're gonna have a mess on your hands. The same thing can happen if I too transpose western ideas into the Islamic framework, they'd certainly makes very little sense.
Current Debates:

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gods_club
Posts: 5
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9/28/2015 9:44:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be... : :

Islam has taken over where the Roman Catholic church left off a thousand years ago. Islam is an extended branch of Christianity like Christianity is an extension of Judaism.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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9/28/2015 10:11:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 9:44:19 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectuVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be... : :

Islam has taken over where the Roman Catholic church left off a thousand years ago. Islam is an extended branch of Christianity like Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

Oh good. Then Muslims believe in the messiah dying for men's sins. Ifeel much better now. :-/
gods_club
Posts: 5
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9/28/2015 10:21:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 10:11:15 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 9/28/2015 9:44:19 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectuVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be... : :

Islam has taken over where the Roman Catholic church left off a thousand years ago. Islam is an extended branch of Christianity like Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

Oh good. Then Muslims believe in the messiah dying for men's sins. Ifeel much better now. :-/ : ;

Judaism doesn't teach these lies, either.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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9/28/2015 11:46:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 10:21:17 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/28/2015 10:11:15 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 9/28/2015 9:44:19 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectuVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be... : :

Islam has taken over where the Roman Catholic church left off a thousand years ago. Islam is an extended branch of Christianity like Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

Oh good. Then Muslims believe in the messiah dying for men's sins. Ifeel much better now. :-/ : ;

Judaism doesn't teach these lies, either.

Judaism does believe in the messiah.

If Christianity is a lie and Islamis a continuation of it, then what does thatmake Islam?
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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9/29/2015 12:09:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/28/2015 10:21:17 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/28/2015 10:11:15 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 9/28/2015 9:44:19 PM, gods_club wrote:
At 9/25/2015 10:02:37 PM, IntellectuVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Richard Dawkins vs. Muhammed on apostacy(leaving Islam)

http://youtu.be... : :

Islam has taken over where the Roman Catholic church left off a thousand years ago. Islam is an extended branch of Christianity like Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

Oh good. Then Muslims believe in the messiah dying for men's sins. Ifeel much better now. :-/ : ;

Judaism doesn't teach these lies, either.

If Islam is a continuation of Christianity the Jesus is God in the flesh and Muslims should love Jews, seeing Muhammed stole his lie from Judaism then distorting the Isaac, Ishmael, and Abraham story and going against the law of love for humanity and teaching Satanic hate.