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Misunderstanding Islam

Mirza
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9/14/2010 10:54:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have come across some Sahih (authentic hadith), and noticed that as good and clear their meanings are, some people twist them to fool people and lie about Islam.

Now, I want to see how people here will interpret the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated Aisha

"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

By reading this portion of a hadith, what do you do? Think that women are equal to dogs? I am keen toward reading your answers, thank you.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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9/14/2010 11:12:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

wtf.

It seems like its saying that a woman passing with a donkey and a dog ruined the prayers and they are complaining about it or something.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/14/2010 11:15:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:54:53 AM, Mirza wrote:
I have come across some Sahih (authentic hadith), and noticed that as good and clear their meanings are, some people twist them to fool people and lie about Islam.

Now, I want to see how people here will interpret the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated Aisha

"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

By reading this portion of a hadith, what do you do? Think that women are equal to dogs? I am keen toward reading your answers, thank you.

well... Why do your prayers get annulled when Dogs and Donkeys pass before you?

I would assume b/c they're somehow Filthy?... dirty... unclean.. beneath you... not fit to be so close to holy activity... etc.

Now... Knowing you... You'll say it's the Men who might end up thinking Improperly whilst praying when seeing women... BUT the Hadith Doesn't say that... The Hadith presents it in a way that many people (MUSLIMS) will interpret it that all Three are Inherently unfit to be so close to such Pure activity...

Now... in putting the 3 so close together... and NOT differentiating between WHY each ends up invalidating the prayers... IT WOULD SEEM that they all invalidate the prayers for the same reason... they're uncouth.

Though, I know YOU'LL women are included for a different reason... that is, b/c men might think improper thoughts...

HOWEVER... then it OUGHT to say Prayers are invalidated when women pass and the men think improper thoughts...

FOR by (what I imagine) Your Understanding... women Passing WOULD NOT Automatically invalidate the prayers... BUT RATHER the prayers would ONLY be invalidated IF the men thought improperly...


SO
I'd say the better, more consistent, understanding is that women are equated with dogs and donkeys in that they're uncouth animals Not fit to be in the vicinity of Holy prayer.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:17:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:15:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Though, I know YOU'LL **SAY** women are included for a different reason... that is, b/c men might think improper thoughts...

HOWEVER... then it OUGHT to say Prayers are invalidated when women pass and the men think improper thoughts...

FOR by (what I imagine) Your Understanding... women Passing WOULD NOT Automatically invalidate the prayers... BUT RATHER the prayers would ONLY be invalidated IF the men thought improperly...


SO
I'd say the better, more consistent, understanding is that women are equated with dogs and donkeys in that they're uncouth animals Not fit to be in the vicinity of Holy prayer.

**fix'd**
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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9/14/2010 11:19:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:54:53 AM, Mirza wrote:

"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

At first I though you were saying Analed.

Ha ha ha...
kfc
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:19:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:12:01 AM, lovelife wrote:
"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

wtf.

It seems like its saying that a woman passing with a donkey and a dog ruined the prayers and they are complaining about it or something.
No, wrong.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:22:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza, Just b/c you can weasel out POSSIBLE 1/2 way decent interpretations out of Filth... Doesn't mean the stuff's not Filth..

Sure... It COULD MAYBE mean that Men might think improper... BUT it doesn't say that... (and that's saying something DIFFERENT, as that would mean that Prayers ARE NOT always invalidated when women walk by)

and it presents it as though they all DO invalidate the prayers.... SIMPLY by walking by.

It DOES lump them all together... MAYBE they Really meant that Women don't AUTOMATICALLY invalidate them... that they just Often do b/c it can distract the men... BUT it doesn't say that.. and that IS DIFFERENT from what it says...

and Actually would be in conflict with what the Hadith says... B/c the hadith says that women walking by DOES (like always) invalidate the prayer.

and there's no reason (from the Hadith) to think that the Hadith meant ANY kind of difference between Women and Dogs.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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9/14/2010 11:23:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:19:47 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:12:01 AM, lovelife wrote:
"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

wtf.

It seems like its saying that a woman passing with a donkey and a dog ruined the prayers and they are complaining about it or something.
No, wrong.

I wasn't planning on getting it right. I'm actually pretty busy.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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9/14/2010 11:23:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Although matt seems to have a good point.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:25:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Though I DO think the Title of this thread is Still a good one...

As it seems YOU have a pretty decent misunderstanding of Islam ;P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/14/2010 11:27:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:15:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
well... Why do your prayers get annulled when Dogs and Donkeys pass before you?

I would assume b/c they're somehow Filthy?... dirty... unclean.. beneath you... not fit to be so close to holy activity... etc.

Now... Knowing you... You'll say it's the Men who might end up thinking Improperly whilst praying when seeing women... BUT the Hadith Doesn't say that... The Hadith presents it in a way that many people (MUSLIMS) will interpret it that all Three are Inherently unfit to be so close to such Pure activity...

Now... in putting the 3 so close together... and NOT differentiating between WHY each ends up invalidating the prayers... IT WOULD SEEM that they all invalidate the prayers for the same reason... they're uncouth.

Though, I know YOU'LL women are included for a different reason... that is, b/c men might think improper thoughts...

HOWEVER... then it OUGHT to say Prayers are invalidated when women pass and the men think improper thoughts...

FOR by (what I imagine) Your Understanding... women Passing WOULD NOT Automatically invalidate the prayers... BUT RATHER the prayers would ONLY be invalidated IF the men thought improperly...


SO
I'd say the better, more consistent, understanding is that women are equated with dogs and donkeys in that they're uncouth animals Not fit to be in the vicinity of Holy prayer.
That is exact predicted answer. It could not get better in terms of my expectations.

Now, what is the big error from your side? You conclude that women are equal to dogs and donkeys, as you think the hadith says. However, when somebody shows you this hadith, why do you not actually examine it for yourself? Why not see the whole hadith? Let us analyze it.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated Aisha

"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away for I disliked to face him.'

Now, how clear is the full hadith! When we read, Aisha (R.A.) said that some people told her about what annuls the prayer (and she did not say that the beloved Prophet did it). They mentioned a dog, donkey, and a woman passing in front. Then she said that they have made women (equal to) dogs. She refuted them by saying that she saw Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) pray between her and the Qibla (Kaba), but she did not face him directly because that is not right. The beloved Prophet prayed when a woman was in front of him!

Now, my dear friend, if you had analyzed the entire hadith (or at least tried to think of it being longer an what you read), you would not conclude that women are equal to dogs and donkeys. And that would be better for the world if people did not believe in everything they heard!
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:27:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:22:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Mirza, Just b/c you can weasel out POSSIBLE 1/2 way decent interpretations out of Filth... Doesn't mean the stuff's not Filth..

Sure... It COULD MAYBE mean that Men might think improper... BUT it doesn't say that... (and that's saying something DIFFERENT, as that would mean that Prayers ARE NOT always invalidated when women walk by)

and it presents it as though they all DO invalidate the prayers.... SIMPLY by walking by.

It DOES lump them all together... MAYBE they Really meant that Women don't AUTOMATICALLY invalidate them... that they just Often do b/c it can distract the men... BUT it doesn't say that.. and that IS DIFFERENT from what it says...

and Actually would be in conflict with what the Hadith says... B/c the hadith says that women walking by DOES (like always) invalidate the prayer.

and there's no reason (from the Hadith) to think that the Hadith meant ANY kind of difference between Women and Dogs.
Proven wrong, my friend. Proven wrong.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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9/14/2010 11:28:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 10:54:53 AM, Mirza wrote:
I have come across some Sahih (authentic hadith), and noticed that as good and clear their meanings are, some people twist them to fool people and lie about Islam.

Now, I want to see how people here will interpret the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated Aisha

"The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, 'Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).' I said, 'You have made us (i.e. women) dogs.'"

By reading this portion of a hadith, what do you do? Think that women are equal to dogs? I am keen toward reading your answers, thank you.

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 491:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet used to pray while I was sleeping across in his bed in front of him. Whenever he wanted to pray Witr, he would wake me up and I would pray Witr.

It means that she corrected those men who thought that women annulled prays by being a smart@ss. She told them that she used to be along side Mohammed when he would pray as well as join in with him in prayer.

So what? Mohammed is still a thieving, raping, murdering, pedophile!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/14/2010 11:30:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:28:12 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
It means that she corrected those men who thought that women annulled prays by being a smart@ss. She told them that she used to be along side Mohammed when he would pray as well as join in with him in prayer.
Good.

So what? Mohammed is still a thieving, raping, murdering, pedophile!
When you are ready for a challenge, come back.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/14/2010 11:32:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
OK mirza!

you keeping things up your sleeve is silly business...
I thought you would've presented all of the relevant parts of the passage to be discussed... not play silly little games.

also... I think the idea that Women facing the person in prayer AUTOMATICALLY invalidates the prayer silly... and WOULD be evidence that at least their Gaze is FILTHY like Dogs.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:33:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:27:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:22:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Mirza, Just b/c you can weasel out POSSIBLE 1/2 way decent interpretations out of Filth... Doesn't mean the stuff's not Filth..

Sure... It COULD MAYBE mean that Men might think improper... BUT it doesn't say that... (and that's saying something DIFFERENT, as that would mean that Prayers ARE NOT always invalidated when women walk by)

and it presents it as though they all DO invalidate the prayers.... SIMPLY by walking by.

It DOES lump them all together... MAYBE they Really meant that Women don't AUTOMATICALLY invalidate them... that they just Often do b/c it can distract the men... BUT it doesn't say that.. and that IS DIFFERENT from what it says...

and Actually would be in conflict with what the Hadith says... B/c the hadith says that women walking by DOES (like always) invalidate the prayer.

and there's no reason (from the Hadith) to think that the Hadith meant ANY kind of difference between Women and Dogs.
Proven wrong, my friend. Proven wrong.

lol... you kept back a RELEVANT part of the hadith... if I had seen that I would've said what I JUST SAID in my last post...

it says that the Gaze of a woman is Filthy, like dogs.

you're a dummy.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:34:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:32:22 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
OK mirza!

you keeping things up your sleeve is silly business...
I thought you would've presented all of the relevant parts of the passage to be discussed... not play silly little games.

also... I think the idea that Women facing the person in prayer AUTOMATICALLY invalidates the prayer silly... and WOULD be evidence that at least their Gaze is FILTHY like Dogs.
... Who said it only applies to woman?

Quit while its good.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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9/14/2010 11:35:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:30:22 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:28:12 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
It means that she corrected those men who thought that women annulled prays by being a smart@ss. She told them that she used to be along side Mohammed when he would pray as well as join in with him in prayer.
Good.

So what? Mohammed is still a thieving, raping, murdering, pedophile!
When you are ready for a challenge, come back.
That sounded like a challenge to me! Actually, it sounded like the back down of challenge to me!

Give up your false prophet & religion and join the rest of humanity. Even atheism is preferable to Islam. I think God would show more mercy.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:35:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:34:16 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:32:22 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
OK mirza!

you keeping things up your sleeve is silly business...
I thought you would've presented all of the relevant parts of the passage to be discussed... not play silly little games.

also... I think the idea that Women facing the person in prayer AUTOMATICALLY invalidates the prayer silly... and WOULD be evidence that at least their Gaze is FILTHY like Dogs.
... Who said it only applies to woman?

Quit while its good.

why's it say "women" then.... why not "people"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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9/14/2010 11:36:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:32:22 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
OK mirza!

you keeping things up your sleeve is silly business...
I thought you would've presented all of the relevant parts of the passage to be discussed... not play silly little games.

also... I think the idea that Women facing the person in prayer AUTOMATICALLY invalidates the prayer silly... and WOULD be evidence that at least their Gaze is FILTHY like Dogs.

Only if men are allowed to gaze at fellow men when they pray.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:36:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:33:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
lol... you kept back a RELEVANT part of the hadith... if I had seen that I would've said what I JUST SAID in my last post...
1) It would still be wrong.
2) What do you think the entire purpose is? That was a challenge for people to see what they do to find out about something before making lying conclusions. You concluded something falsely, without looking the hadith up. I gave you references. Why not think, "Let me actually read the hadith from a valid source in its full version. Maybe it doesn't even exist..."

That would be better.

it says that the Gaze of a woman is Filthy, like dogs.
Where does it say that?

you're a dummy.
OK.
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:38:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:35:21 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Give up your false prophet & religion and join the rest of humanity. Even atheism is preferable to Islam.
Accept challenge or have a nice day. I would rather jump off of any cliff on our planet than believing in horrifying beliefs.

I think God would show more mercy.
We will see who is right in the end.
lovelife
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9/14/2010 11:38:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza, I did think you wanted us to interpret the part that you gave us, not look up more and interpret that.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:39:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:36:24 AM, lovelife wrote:
Only if men are allowed to gaze at fellow men when they pray.
To "gaze at?" And do you know that they are not allowed to do so? In the Kaba, when some people pray there, they face each other at all directions, except directly head-to-head.
tBoonePickens
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9/14/2010 11:39:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:36:33 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:33:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
you're a dummy.
OK.

He finally admits it! You are making progress Mirza! I'll have you praying to statues of saints in no time at all!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:39:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:38:51 AM, lovelife wrote:
Mirza, I did think you wanted us to interpret the part that you gave us, not look up more and interpret that.
I wanted you to be critical and challenge claims before concluding something that you only saw/heard from a biased side.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:40:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
and actually... IT SEEMS that Aisha is saying that the idea that women Before a prayer doesn't annul the prayer at all...

She NEVER said that looking upon the one praying invalidates it either...

she's responding to contemporary Islamic folk who equate Women with dogs... and saying that She does go before the prophet when he prays.

SHE never even said that gazing upon him "invalidates" the prayer.... she simply said that she Personally didn't like to look upon him.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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9/14/2010 11:40:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:39:23 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:36:24 AM, lovelife wrote:
Only if men are allowed to gaze at fellow men when they pray.
To "gaze at?" And do you know that they are not allowed to do so? In the Kaba, when some people pray there, they face each other at all directions, except directly head-to-head.

I'm saying if its only wrong when women do it, then its wrong. If its wrong when anyone does, then its valid.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
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9/14/2010 11:40:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:35:29 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
why's it say "women" then.... why not "people"
The hadith? It speaks nicely of women where Aisha refuted people who said something ignorant about women. None of humankind face each other during prayer.
mattrodstrom
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9/14/2010 11:42:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/14/2010 11:36:33 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/14/2010 11:33:46 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
lol... you kept back a RELEVANT part of the hadith... if I had seen that I would've said what I JUST SAID in my last post...
1) It would still be wrong.
2) What do you think the entire purpose is? That was a challenge for people to see what they do to find out about something before making lying conclusions. You concluded something falsely, without looking the hadith up. I gave you references. Why not think, "Let me actually read the hadith from a valid source in its full version. Maybe it doesn't even exist..."

That would be better.

I assumed you, being a somewhat intelligent Muslim who likes to debate about things on an even footing, would have provided the relevant bits.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."