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Is hoping for Heaven's existence immoral?

Chaosism
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9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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9/30/2015 4:42:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.

I don't have any sense of what Heaven is exactly like or who is there. I assume it is different than here, more diverse/complex. People believe in levels, vs. No levels and eternal vs. Temporary. Muslims believe Hell specifically is used to refine you or get you prepared for Heaven(this is a generalization of course). Christianity speaks of different crowns with different representations and meanings. Muslims believe in a Heaven with levels. Someone on level 65 could go to level 65 or lower and see anyone there. If their mother were in say level 120, she could come see them at level 65 but they could not go to her at level 120. If God is just and fair, then it is logical to say wherever one winds up should be just and fair. Thus guilty people tend to be up to something and nonguilty feeling people don't have much to hide per say. Those without much of a conscience will have to speak for themselves. I want to go to Heaven and have as many as is possible be there too, so I don't see it as much of a selfish motive. I would love for everyone to find eternal life and happiness. God bless.
bulproof
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9/30/2015 5:03:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Of course not, it is simply the hope of cavemen.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
12_13
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9/30/2015 6:59:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few.

So, do you also refuse to take wage of job that you have done, if other people don"t also get that wage? Why?
janesix
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9/30/2015 7:03:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.

Worshipping a God who would create Hell for nonbelievers is immoral.
Chaosism
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9/30/2015 7:17:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:42:43 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.

I don't have any sense of what Heaven is exactly like or who is there. I assume it is different than here, more diverse/complex. People believe in levels, vs. No levels and eternal vs. Temporary. Muslims believe Hell specifically is used to refine you or get you prepared for Heaven(this is a generalization of course). Christianity speaks of different crowns with different representations and meanings. Muslims believe in a Heaven with levels. Someone on level 65 could go to level 65 or lower and see anyone there. If their mother were in say level 120, she could come see them at level 65 but they could not go to her at level 120. If God is just and fair, then it is logical to say wherever one winds up should be just and fair. Thus guilty people tend to be up to something and nonguilty feeling people don't have much to hide per say. Those without much of a conscience will have to speak for themselves. I want to go to Heaven and have as many as is possible be there too, so I don't see it as much of a selfish motive. I would love for everyone to find eternal life and happiness. God bless.

The 'tiered' heaven seems strange to me; I've never heard of that. Ultimately, though, the question focuses on Hell. If Hell is temporary for everyone, then my questions hold significantly less validity. However, this is not the typical view, from what I understand.

The justification of the judgment isn't the point, really. But this: "I would love for everyone to find eternal life and happiness" is a statement that reflects morality, to me. THAT would be what I would really hope for, but that sadly doesn't reflect the traditional scenario.
Chaosism
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9/30/2015 7:18:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 5:03:02 PM, bulproof wrote:
Of course not, it is simply the hope of cavemen.

Be that as it may, it's totally beside the point of the question.
Chaosism
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9/30/2015 7:21:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 6:59:46 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few.

So, do you also refuse to take wage of job that you have done, if other people don"t also get that wage? Why?

That isn't the same. My having a higher wage is not a detriment to others. Sure, I'd rather other make at least the same, but this scenario doesn't compare to Heaven and Hell. Just to say, the majority of the money that I earn does go to directly benefiting those less fortunate, so I am sharing that wage.
Chaosism
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9/30/2015 7:25:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 7:03:34 PM, janesix wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.

Worshipping a God who would create Hell for nonbelievers is immoral.

I agree. This is pretty much right in line with my question. If I hope that the excusive concept of Heaven is false, then I am equally hoping for the invalidation of Hell.
UniversalTheologian
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10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Reasonslap
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10/1/2015 1:26:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

Honestly, I'd rather not do the immoral things your God has said for humans to do....
Reasonslap
Posts: 221
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10/1/2015 1:30:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist? Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.

This is certainly a question I have never seen before.I would tend to agree with you and your belief that morality is on the side of giving oneself for others. That is one of the reasons I am atheistic. It just seems wrong that a select few, less than a third, of the world gets to go to this great place, while the rest get to go to an eternal damnation. No finite crime that we can commit in our lives deserves eternal damnation. I would gladly step down into damnation for others, as they probably did nothing unlike what I did.
Chaosism
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10/1/2015 1:32:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

While I do appreciate your input on this, I don't think this addresses the topic. All I am addressing is the immorality I perceive in the wish for the typical biblical, exclusive concept of Heaven (whether it is true or not).
UniversalTheologian
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10/1/2015 5:23:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 1:26:14 AM, Reasonslap wrote:
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

Honestly, I'd rather not do the immoral things your God has said for humans to do....

You already do the things that God has said for you to do. God's will is done whether you like it or not. You, along with everything else in creation is a slave to God.
"There are trivial truths and the great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true." ~ Niels Bohr

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
12_13
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10/1/2015 8:51:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 7:21:59 PM, Chaosism wrote:
That isn't the same. My having a higher wage is not a detriment to others.

How is you getting eternal life detriment for others?
Chaosism
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10/1/2015 10:17:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 8:51:29 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/30/2015 7:21:59 PM, Chaosism wrote:
That isn't the same. My having a higher wage is not a detriment to others.

How is you getting eternal life detriment for others?

If the Bible is true and the indication of an exclusive Heaven is correct, then the overall fact of its truth means that at least some will meet eternal damnation. What actually happens to me on a personal level doesn't matter. But, If I am hoping for the exclusive Heaven to be true, that necessitates the negative impact on others. The moral hope is to hope for Universal Salvation, and that the passages that go against that idea are wrong.

This isn't about what could or will actually be true. It's about the moral stance of hoping for X to be true because it benefits oneself even though X would necessitate detriment to others.
12_13
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10/2/2015 7:05:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 10:17:39 PM, Chaosism wrote:
...But, If I am hoping for the exclusive Heaven to be true, that necessitates the negative impact on others. The moral hope is to hope for Universal Salvation, and that the passages that go against that idea are wrong.

I don"t think exclusive heaven is correct understanding of Bible. If people don"t get into heaven, it is because they don"t want to be with God and live righteously. It is peoples own choice. That is why I think it is not exclusive. In principle, all are invited.

For many are called, but few chosen.
Matt. 22:14

However, if all would be taken into heaven, unrighteous people would turn it eternal suffering for all, unless they are forced to love. It would be suffering for those who hate God, if they would be forced to be with God and live righteously. That is why I think hell is not bad. It is eternal separation from God, and that is what some people want rather than be with God and love as God has commanded.
DanneJeRusse
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10/2/2015 7:29:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist?

Absolutely, the entire concept of heaven appeals to the arrogant, selfish and self-serving who don't care about anyone else but themselves, who align themselves with the vengeance and jealousy of their God. They are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.

Personally, I would sincerely hope that such an idea of Heaven was false, because I would not wish for my eternal happiness if it also meant eternal damnation for even a few. It strikes me as immoral to long for a situation in which I value myself over other people. Essentially, I want X to occur because is it beneficial to me despite it being detrimental to others.

Certainly, one can argue that it is simply fair and just that those people lived in such a way as to warrant their exclusion from Heaven, but that is merely justification of the situation. Even if the judgment is justified, I think the moral stance is to still hold more concern for the well-being of others over that of oneself. I think this conclusion is especially true if one wishes for anyone to fall to Hell, regardless of any justification.

This thread is not intended to dispute the existence of Heaven or what it is. This is just an issue of moral perspective.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Chaosism
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10/2/2015 7:36:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/2/2015 7:05:44 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/1/2015 10:17:39 PM, Chaosism wrote:
...But, If I am hoping for the exclusive Heaven to be true, that necessitates the negative impact on others. The moral hope is to hope for Universal Salvation, and that the passages that go against that idea are wrong.

I don"t think exclusive heaven is correct understanding of Bible.

If some don't make it there, then it is exclusive.

If people don"t get into heaven, it is because they don"t want to be with God and live righteously. It is peoples own choice. That is why I think it is not exclusive. In principle, all are invited.

Does, "they don't want to", extend to the unbeliever who simply doesn't believe such a thing to be true? To me, if someone isn't convinced that such a thing is true, then I would not blame them. If they *knowingly* choose it (rather than disbelieving and ending up there) then fine, if that's what they really want. If it is an oversight and a regretful decision to them, then I would sill find that to be horrible.

For many are called, but few chosen.
Matt. 22:14

However, if all would be taken into heaven, unrighteous people would turn it eternal suffering for all, unless they are forced to love. It would be suffering for those who hate God, if they would be forced to be with God and live righteously. That is why I think hell is not bad. It is eternal separation from God, and that is what some people want rather than be with God and love as God has commanded.

That's twice I've heard a description that make me imagine some giant open hall where everyone is mingling together. Is there anything in the Bible that indicates that individuals in Heaven can cause harm to each other? I haven't found such a thing.

Also, if Hell is not that bad, then this questions doesn't apply as much. There are many who believe in the fiery lake of eternal torment, though.
Reasonslap
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10/2/2015 10:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 5:23:07 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:26:14 AM, Reasonslap wrote:
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

Honestly, I'd rather not do the immoral things your God has said for humans to do....

You already do the things that God has said for you to do. God's will is done whether you like it or not. You, along with everything else in creation is a slave to God.

Then why do we have free will? Or does that not exist?
bulproof
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10/3/2015 10:39:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

You've convinced me. Now you commit suicide and take the shortcut and I'll be along shortly.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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10/3/2015 10:42:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 5:23:07 PM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:26:14 AM, Reasonslap wrote:
At 10/1/2015 12:15:58 AM, UniversalTheologian wrote:
All things come and go, all things perish. Who goes to heaven? What survives the baptism of fire? It ain't a thing.

What is the hereafter? Well, what is tomorrow? What is the after life? What is the future?

After death, if there is an afterlife, what is it that you are going to bring with you? How can you prepare for this unknown? Truly I tell you, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not be satisfied with the greater heavens that God gives.

Think about a type of society where man has access to everything they could ever want. Food made up of ingredients from all across the globe, cooked and delivered to a house with always perfect weather. Constant entertainment by the best artists the world has to offer at the wave of a hand and access to all of the world's knowledge. Transportation over great distances in time spans thought impossible. The world at one's fingers. There are people in today's world who are blessed with these things, yet they are depressed, miserable, self loathing, lonely, ungrateful, always wanting, and unsatisfied. How vain the desire for heaven is!

So how do you prepare for the future? Do not be bribed by petty baubles and worthless toys. Do not covet luxury and the things of this world. These things are all useless, all vanities. The ways of this world are the way they are for a reason, and the treasure you find on Earth is worthless compared to the treasure of heaven. Focus on God, accept His Will as done, and find your peace. I warn again, if you have not found heaven in this life, you will not find heaven in the next.

Honestly, I'd rather not do the immoral things your God has said for humans to do....

You already do the things that God has said for you to do. God's will is done whether you like it or not. You, along with everything else in creation is a slave to God.

Well I'm glad your god finally got rid of that pesky free will rubbish.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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10/3/2015 10:45:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/2/2015 7:05:44 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/1/2015 10:17:39 PM, Chaosism wrote:
...But, If I am hoping for the exclusive Heaven to be true, that necessitates the negative impact on others. The moral hope is to hope for Universal Salvation, and that the passages that go against that idea are wrong.

I don"t think exclusive heaven is correct understanding of Bible. If people don"t get into heaven, it is because they don"t want to be with God and live righteously. It is peoples own choice. That is why I think it is not exclusive. In principle, all are invited.

For many are called, but few chosen.
Matt. 22:14

However, if all would be taken into heaven, unrighteous people would turn it eternal suffering for all, unless they are forced to love. It would be suffering for those who hate God, if they would be forced to be with God and live righteously. That is why I think hell is not bad. It is eternal separation from God, and that is what some people want rather than be with God and love as God has commanded.

You obviously haven't achieved puberty yet, but you can't COMMAND love.
Try to take that on board, it will help you mature.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
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10/3/2015 10:45:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/2/2015 7:29:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2015 4:31:25 PM, Chaosism wrote:
The typical view of Heaven is an exclusive one, in that, not everyone will make it there (the alternative being the Lake of Fire). The exception, of course, is the belief of Universal Salvation, but I think there are biblical verses that refute that, such as Matthew 7:13-14.

Anyway, my question is: is it inherently immoral and selfish to hope for Heaven to exist?

Absolutely, the entire concept of heaven appeals to the arrogant, selfish and self-serving who don't care about anyone else but themselves, who align themselves with the vengeance and jealousy of their God. They are some of the most dangerous people on the planet.

THIS!!
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible? This is a negative, defeated viewpoint. Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires. Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
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10/3/2015 5:57:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends?
Whilst witnessing the eternal torture of your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Apparently people like you can experience eternal life and happiness under those circumstances.
Pretty sick, if you ask me.
Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible?
What is moral about enjoying seeing your loved ones suffering for eternity?
This is a negative, defeated viewpoint.
Yeah, I'd actually be very negative about that and go and kick your all loving god fair in the nuts. But that's only because I know what LOVE really is.
Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires.
Most of the religionists on here are incredibly brainwashed if they can't even imagine the consequence of their obscene beliefs. Try really hard to carry your beliefs through to the only conclusion available. That is right if you go to heaven and do not have all of your memories erased then heaven will be HELL for eternity. Good luck with that.
Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
And you know this how, young fellow?
I love children giving adults advice, it's so cute.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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10/3/2015 5:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/3/2015 5:57:16 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends?
Whilst witnessing the eternal torture of your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Apparently people like you can experience eternal life and happiness under those circumstances.
Pretty sick, if you ask me.
Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible?
What is moral about enjoying seeing your loved ones suffering for eternity?
This is a negative, defeated viewpoint.
Yeah, I'd actually be very negative about that and go and kick your all loving god fair in the nuts. But that's only because I know what LOVE really is.
Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires.
Most of the religionists on here are incredibly brainwashed if they can't even imagine the consequence of their obscene beliefs. Try really hard to carry your beliefs through to the only conclusion available. That is right if you go to heaven and do not have all of your memories erased then heaven will be HELL for eternity. Good luck with that.
Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
And you know this how, young fellow?
I love children giving adults advice, it's so cute.

What is Hell
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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10/3/2015 5:59:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/3/2015 5:57:16 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends?
Whilst witnessing the eternal torture of your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Apparently people like you can experience eternal life and happiness under those circumstances.
Pretty sick, if you ask me.
Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible?
What is moral about enjoying seeing your loved ones suffering for eternity?
This is a negative, defeated viewpoint.
Yeah, I'd actually be very negative about that and go and kick your all loving god fair in the nuts. But that's only because I know what LOVE really is.
Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires.
Most of the religionists on here are incredibly brainwashed if they can't even imagine the consequence of their obscene beliefs. Try really hard to carry your beliefs through to the only conclusion available. That is right if you go to heaven and do not have all of your memories erased then heaven will be HELL for eternity. Good luck with that.
Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
And you know this how, young fellow?
I love children giving adults advice, it's so cute.

My adopted mother was hospice. They always want a priest or preacher in the end.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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10/3/2015 6:04:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/3/2015 5:59:57 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:57:16 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends?
Whilst witnessing the eternal torture of your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Apparently people like you can experience eternal life and happiness under those circumstances.
Pretty sick, if you ask me.
Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible?
What is moral about enjoying seeing your loved ones suffering for eternity?
This is a negative, defeated viewpoint.
Yeah, I'd actually be very negative about that and go and kick your all loving god fair in the nuts. But that's only because I know what LOVE really is.
Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires.
Most of the religionists on here are incredibly brainwashed if they can't even imagine the consequence of their obscene beliefs. Try really hard to carry your beliefs through to the only conclusion available. That is right if you go to heaven and do not have all of your memories erased then heaven will be HELL for eternity. Good luck with that.
Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
And you know this how, young fellow?
I love children giving adults advice, it's so cute.

My adopted mother was hospice. They always want a priest or preacher in the end.

Says you.
I know that such is a LIE.
Does your god allow that behaviour?
Perhaps you need a priest?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
IntellectVsSpirit5000
Posts: 1,266
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10/3/2015 6:08:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/3/2015 6:04:01 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:59:57 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:57:16 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/3/2015 5:25:29 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
Immoral to wish eternal life and happiness for your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends?
Whilst witnessing the eternal torture of your mother, father, children, relatives, and friends? Apparently people like you can experience eternal life and happiness under those circumstances.
Pretty sick, if you ask me.
Isn't it immoral not to seek to be with them forever if it is possible?
What is moral about enjoying seeing your loved ones suffering for eternity?
This is a negative, defeated viewpoint.
Yeah, I'd actually be very negative about that and go and kick your all loving god fair in the nuts. But that's only because I know what LOVE really is.
Some of the Atheists on this forum must be severely depressed seeing their negative imagery, beliefs, and desires.
Most of the religionists on here are incredibly brainwashed if they can't even imagine the consequence of their obscene beliefs. Try really hard to carry your beliefs through to the only conclusion available. That is right if you go to heaven and do not have all of your memories erased then heaven will be HELL for eternity. Good luck with that.
Maybe when they are older it will begin to take hold. Atheists are bold until staring death in the face. That is when we see them change.
And you know this how, young fellow?
I love children giving adults advice, it's so cute.

My adopted mother was hospice. They always want a priest or preacher in the end.

Says you.
I know that such is a LIE.
Does your god allow that behaviour?
Perhaps you need a priest?

You knew Obama's ring was bull. You quit response to the thread replies.