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Jesus of Nazereth/Christ Did Exist

IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.
godsworker
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10/4/2015 8:08:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well. : :'

Christ will always exist. It's just another name for the thoughts of God that all God's prophets and saints testified to. Christ is also known as the word of the Lord, voice of the Lord, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit. Holy Spirit, Zion, Breath of Life, Tree of Life, Light of men, Son of God, etc.
annanicole
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10/4/2015 8:14:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 8:08:44 PM, godsworker wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:

Christ will always exist. It's just another name for the thoughts of God that all God's prophets and saints testified to. Christ is also known as the word of the Lord, voice of the Lord, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit. Holy Spirit, Zion, Breath of Life, Tree of Life, Light of men, Son of God, etc.

Uh oh. Alert the media! Saint BOG has escaped the loony bin and is back on here.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanneJeRusse
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10/4/2015 8:42:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius was a leader of Rome, a real guy who isn't supposed to be the son of a god, nor does Tiberius proclaim to have walked on water, healed the blind or was resurrected.

Sure, maybe a guy life Jesus was around preaching, but so were lots of guys back then as there are today. So what?

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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Hitchian
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10/4/2015 9:13:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

This is a complete mystification.

The earliest secular reference is by Josephus and there's reason to at least suspect it's a forgery.

https://www.youtube.com...

Bottom line, even if Jesus did exist that in and of itself says nothing about his divine nature as the son of God. Christians are setting the bar at ground level if they're somehow suggesting that proof of his existence equals proof of divinity.
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known. In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb. Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray. Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Jewish polemic shared with Christians the conviction that the sepulcher was empty and then gave natural explanations for the event. Such positive evidence within a nonchristian based source is the heaviest type of evidence.

Let us ask ourselves, why did the Jews attempt to explain away Jesus" tomb if there was no Jesus in the first place? It is simply because Jesus existed.

John Crossan, of the "Radical Jesus" Seminar, writes:

"That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be."

Gerd Ludemann, known Atheist said this:

"Jesus" death as a result of crucifixion is indisputable."

Quadratus was an Athenian bishop and direct disciple of the actual Apostles. He is often seen as the first Christian apologist because of his defense he gave to Emperor Hadrian during early church history.He points out that some who were healed and resurrected by Jesus lived until modern times. (They would be eye witnesses of the man Jesus)

"The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles. Those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only while our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."

Josephus Flavius
Cornelius Tacitus
the Jewish Talmud
Ignatius of Antioch
Outplayz
Posts: 1,267
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10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am.
godsworker
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10/5/2015 3:45:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am. : :

You're correct. We saints are no different than anyone else on this planet but our testimonies of the Word of God is how we learn about the future and how God created everything.
Outplayz
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10/5/2015 3:57:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:45:20 AM, godsworker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am. : :

You're correct. We saints are no different than anyone else on this planet but our testimonies of the Word of God is how we learn about the future and how God created everything.

I've honestly been taking your words in, you do say some visionary concepts; however, in my opinion, you must let this god thing go... there is no one all powerful god. We are all a collective spiritual force. There may have been, and is probable to me, a first source... first immortal. Yet, at this point there is an infinite (finite) number of us. Different creators, different artists, different creativity. I am not trying to say you are wrong, bc in your own vision you are not... however, i am just saying you do not have to use what our past visionaries have taught... we are beyond them now. We did learn from them, but we do not have to use their language anymore. For instance, it would be like if i said all that existed was Stan lee ... this is not true bc there is DC comics, Anime, world of warcraft... (lol ya ima nerd). But, do you see where i am going? There isn't one anything, we prove that through our own imaginations. If you'd like to be called a saint (as in more spiritually aware) so be it, but so can i... and as a saint; this is my message to you.
dee-em
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10/5/2015 4:43:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

As you well know, those sources you list for Jesus do nothing to verify his historical existence. Many of them are highly suspect and, even if allowed as authentic, they merely attest to Christian beliefs many, many decades after the alleged life of Jesus. That is nothing to crow about.

Tiberius Caesar, on the other hand, had coins minted in his own lifetime:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Not only do we have absolutely nothing for Jesus in his own lifetime, we do not even have a single description of him anywhere in the NT gospels. Not one word. In fact, over the centuries, the image of Jesus has been adapted and modified to reflect the tastes (and often the appearance) of the cultures in which Christianity took hold. Sometimes he was clean-shaven. At other times he had long hair and a beard.

As to the historical references, you dishonestly go by numbers of historians, ignoring the sheer quantity of material available for Caesar. As an example, Tacitus has a scant paragraph on a Christus (no mention of a Jesus). In contrast the same Tacitus devoted six whole books to the reign of Tiberius Caesar. It's chalk and cheese.

Contemporaries of Tiberius Caesar wrote about him, including Pliny the Elder who called him "the gloomiest of men". No contemporary of Jesus ever heard of him. Tiberius himself wrote an autobiography which Suetonius describes as "brief and sketchy," but this book has been lost. Jesus is not known to have written a single word.

The town Tiberias, in modern Israel on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee was named in Tiberius's honour by Herod Antipas. Jesus has had nothing named after him.

However, the most damning evidence for a mythical Jesus comes from the NT itself. Ignoring the hearsay accounts of "Mark" (whoever he was) seven decades after the birth of the alleged Jesus, the nearest mention of Jesus we have is the Pauline epistles. Here was Paul almost contemporary with Jesus and yet he knows absolutely nothing about his supposed Earthly life. You will find no words of Jesus, no teachings, no mention of his parents, his virgin birth, nothing to indicate a human being at all. When Paul talks about resurrection, he pleads and argues at length but completely fails to mention the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the gospels. After Paul, the details of the Jesus story become embellished to the point where he is reinvented in human form based on OT scripture and pagan customs and beliefs. This is classical myth-making, when something starts of simple (the celestial Jesus of Paul) and is then made progressively more detailed with the passage of time. By far the longest gospel is Luke which came after Mark and Matthew. How can that be unless it is invention?
godsworker
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10/5/2015 4:46:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:57:27 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:45:20 AM, godsworker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am. : :

You're correct. We saints are no different than anyone else on this planet but our testimonies of the Word of God is how we learn about the future and how God created everything.

I've honestly been taking your words in, you do say some visionary concepts; however, in my opinion, you must let this god thing go... there is no one all powerful god. We are all a collective spiritual force. There may have been, and is probable to me, a first source... first immortal. Yet, at this point there is an infinite (finite) number of us. Different creators, different artists, different creativity. I am not trying to say you are wrong, bc in your own vision you are not... however, i am just saying you do not have to use what our past visionaries have taught... we are beyond them now. We did learn from them, but we do not have to use their language anymore. For instance, it would be like if i said all that existed was Stan lee ... this is not true bc there is DC comics, Anime, world of warcraft... (lol ya ima nerd). But, do you see where i am going? There isn't one anything, we prove that through our own imaginations. If you'd like to be called a saint (as in more spiritually aware) so be it, but so can i... and as a saint; this is my message to you. : :

I'm not only here to find you believers who know that what we're experiencing is not our true reality but I'm also here to piss off the Christians who think they know something. This is what I have to do until my body appears to be killed by them. I know what's going to happen after that so I'm not at all concerned about dying in the first part of this program.

I have met thousands of believers but only a few who know we're living in a simulation. I've been teaching a few close friends about this but it's very difficult for them because they weren't taught directly by our Creator like I was this past 7 years.

It makes no difference to me how or where you learned about this simulation but I know for a fact you didn't have to testify in writing and speaking for our Creator like I had to go through. I know for sure what's going on because of those testimonies. I don't have to guess at anything except the timing of my death, which I thought was going to happen last January. Our Creator taught me why, how and where I will be killed but only gave me a prophecy to read when I was wondering about when I would be killed. Eventually, I started telling some friends and members in this forum that I would be killed by January. This humbling experience kept me from intruding in on the voice of our Creator that I've been speaking for him. I still don't know when I'll be killed for testifying to my created existence, which is His creation.
dee-em
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10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known.

You don't have to look at anti-Christian groups. Try a Christian group:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Marcionite belief, Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown. See also the Unknown God of Hellenism and the Areopagus sermon.

In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb.

What? Who wrote that? Let me guess. Christians.

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

Of course not. Who was in charge of all documents from the 3rd and 4th centuries onwards for a millennium and more? Why would you expect that anything remotely critical of Christianity would survive the Christian burning and destruction when they did exactly this to anything pagan including priceless Greek philosophical works?

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Rubbish. This is all a figment of Christian imagination. I've already linked you to the Christian bishop of Antioch circa 180CE who wrote three entire books on Christian doctrine and fails to mention Jesus even once.

Jewish polemic shared with Christians the conviction that the sepulcher was empty and then gave natural explanations for the event. Such positive evidence within a nonchristian based source is the heaviest type of evidence.

Authentic Jewish source for this assertion, please.

Let us ask ourselves, why did the Jews attempt to explain away Jesus" tomb if there was no Jesus in the first place? It is simply because Jesus existed.

When? Where?

John Crossan, of the "Radical Jesus" Seminar, writes:

"That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be."

Gerd Ludemann, known Atheist said this:

"Jesus" death as a result of crucifixion is indisputable."

Who cares? Opinions are a dime a dozen.

Quadratus was an Athenian bishop and direct disciple of the actual Apostles. He is often seen as the first Christian apologist because of his defense he gave to Emperor Hadrian during early church history.He points out that some who were healed and resurrected by Jesus lived until modern times. (They would be eye witnesses of the man Jesus).

Baloney. This comes from disreputable Christian sources faking history, namely Eusebius, a known liar. You have nothing but Christian invention.

"The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles. Those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only while our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."

Nothing historical. Just Christians lying for Jesus.

Josephus Flavius
Cornelius Tacitus
the Jewish Talmud
Ignatius of Antioch
Skepticalone
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10/5/2015 5:09:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

5 of your listed sources for Tiberius lived during his life time. How many of your sources for Jesus lived during his lifetime? - zero.

Btw, I personally think there was a man named Jesus who lived in the first century, but the sources for the existence of the two individuals are not equivalent.
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SNP1
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10/5/2015 2:15:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry if there are any typos, doing this from my phone.

At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus

Both accounts of Jesus were most likely forged/interpolated.

Tacitus

Either forged or simply said what Christians told him. Almost certainly inaccurate as Pliny the Elder didn't mention Christians in his CONTEMPORARY account of the fires.

Pliny the Younger

Simply attests to the existence of Christians, not to Jesus as a historical figure. Had to ask others who Christians were.

, Phlegon,

Who wrote in the 140s CE. Historians have agreed that the cutoff date for reliable information about Jesus is 120CE.

Luci,

Who are you refering to? I can't find anyone named "Luci" that wrote about Jesus from 4BCE-120CE.

Celsus,

Even Bart Ehrman, who is completely against the Jesus myth, would facepalm at this one. Reliable sources for the supposed Jesus must come from 120CE or earlier.

Mara Bar Serapion,

The reference "Wise King" could refer to any number of the false messiahs running around at the time. The Dead Sea Scrolls even mentions one of them being crucified. Furthermore, if he got his information from Christians, then he is not an independant source.

Suetonius,

Mentions Jewish rioters (not Christians) and FALSELY says they were expelled from Rome. They were, according to Cassius Dio, ordered to no longer hold meetings.

He then also says that punishments were inflicted on Christians. Again, nothing about Jesus.

and Thallus.

Lived and died a century before Jesus supposedly lived, and we have no indication that he actually mentioned Jesus.


Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

False analogy.
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IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/5/2015 6:48:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am.

I don't think he is "magic". There is always something behind how someone did the miraculous thing they did. If everyone were in a matrix from birth but me. Then I entered the matrix with knowledge of how the matrix works, I might climb walls like spiderman, fly, dtop bullets dead in their tracks, manifest food, walk on water, disappear, etc, but is it magic? No. It is deeper knowledge and understanding of how things work.
truth_is_was_will_be
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10/5/2015 6:52:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:48:03 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am.

I don't think he is "magic". There is always something behind how someone did the miraculous thing they did. If everyone were in a matrix from birth but me. Then I entered the matrix with knowledge of how the matrix works, I might climb walls like spiderman, fly, dtop bullets dead in their tracks, manifest food, walk on water, disappear, etc, but is it magic? No. It is deeper knowledge and understanding of how things work. : :

Only a few of us understand what is real and what is not real. Our Creator is the only Teacher to exist so listen to him through his chosen servants and you will get all the latest details about the future.
Outplayz
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10/5/2015 10:13:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:48:03 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:39:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 10/4/2015 7:24:12 PM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
There are multiple secular sources that give us proof of Jesus' existance as a real and historical figure: Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger , Phlegon, Luci, Celsus, Mara Bar Serapion, Suetonius, and Thallus.

Here is historical evidence for Tiberius Caesar"s existence for comparison. This will be used because no one refutes the existance of Tiberius Caesar.

Tiberius Caesar, the Roman head who ruled during Jesus" life, has 10 authors who mention his existence within reasonably close proximatey of his life: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Seneca, Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, and Valerius Maximum.

There are 9 secular, or nonchristian sources for Jesus. This means that there are a comparable number of secular sources for Jesus" existence as compared to Tiberius Caesar"s. And, for comparison, the TOTAL number of sources between Jesus and Tiberius Caesar is a ratio of 42 to 10. Therefore, there are more than four times as many sources for Jesus" life and deeds than there are for Tiberius Caesar"s life and deeds. Are we to disbelieve Tiberius ever existed? Surely not. The same prosecution of the proof of Jesus' existance must be applied to Tiberius as well.

Sure... i even think he existed ... but, was no more magical than i am.

I don't think he is "magic". There is always something behind how someone did the miraculous thing they did. If everyone were in a matrix from birth but me. Then I entered the matrix with knowledge of how the matrix works, I might climb walls like spiderman, fly, dtop bullets dead in their tracks, manifest food, walk on water, disappear, etc, but is it magic? No. It is deeper knowledge and understanding of how things work.

Well, i agree with you. One day we might find a way to manipulate matter and make metal from thin air... so, it wouldn't be magic, it'd be science. I guess it would be better said that any character you think was holy is no more holy than you and i. Spirituality has never stopped, but people have. We are in the age that we can actually talk to each other now... spirituality is going to get more powerful bc of this, but religion is going to keep showing its true colors.... green. I have never been trying to tell anyone that they are wrong in their belief, i am just saying that organized religion is not the full answer or one answer. I mean, when did spirituality turn into something we can't talk about bc we would be fearful of harm or argument... that is not what it is and clearly religion shows its true colors from this... it is fallible and not the one word. We are all free to create what we want here and spiritually. Some def. need the help of others to form spiritual thoughts, but it is these spiritual people that should be responsible to uplift men. You might say that is what your religion or religion does, but it doesn't. It is making us more separated. It is not until we all understand that we are all powerful immortals that freedom will sink in. In this way, we can feel powerful in reality and if we move on... we will feel powerful then. All anyone has to do is understand what they individually are... a creator, artist, scientist, officer, school teacher, etc... That is the character you chose to be, so be the best at it. This does contradict one thing though... some may be religious leaders, that's their character. I understand that, and i can see why they were needed...but, they will be less and less as time goes by. If i can help that go faster; i will. Not bc i have a bone to pick, it is bc of its enslavement of humans from progressing at our full potential. I want humanity to move forward.
annanicole
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10/6/2015 3:51:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known.

You don't have to look at anti-Christian groups. Try a Christian group:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Marcionite belief, Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown. See also the Unknown God of Hellenism and the Areopagus sermon.

In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb.

What? Who wrote that? Let me guess. Christians.

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

Of course not. Who was in charge of all documents from the 3rd and 4th centuries onwards for a millennium and more? Why would you expect that anything remotely critical of Christianity would survive the Christian burning and destruction when they did exactly this to anything pagan including priceless Greek philosophical works?

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Rubbish. This is all a figment of Christian imagination. I've already linked you to the Christian bishop of Antioch circa 180CE who wrote three entire books on Christian doctrine and fails to mention Jesus even once.

Then why didn't Christians recognize that a "Christian" bishop in Antioch some 150 years or so after the supposed death of Christ never even mentioned Him - and add a sentence or two to the text. After all, you write off every other mention in early literature as "Christian meddling." I believe if I were going to meddle with a work, I wouldn't have skipped over that one.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/6/2015 3:52:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 3:23:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
Notice how IVS5K abandons a thread when the going gets hard?

What's hard about it? I'm yet a good challenge on a review of posts. If Jesus is said to have not existed we must conclude that Tiberius Caesar did not exist either. And then all of hist9ry is in question. We can look around andsee a religion with 2.3 billion followers and another with 2 billion for a whopping 4.3 billion people. You are not only in the vast minority on your view but you "the historian" take a stance contrary to almost ALL historians including Atheist ones. Anything else?
annanicole
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10/6/2015 3:55:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

One such reference would be the Sanhedrin Talmud, Sanhedrin 43. Surely you do not accuse Christians of (once again) meddling with it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
IntellectVsSpirit5000
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10/6/2015 3:57:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Almost all historians believe Jesus did indeed live. The following quotes from historians who have specialised in that period of history are typical:

I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus .... We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.
Prof Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina
we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ..... In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
The late Michael Grant, eminent historian of the Roman Empire
Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E."
Prof James Charlesworth, Princeton Theological Seminary
Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it [the theory that Jesus didn't exist] as effectively refuted."
Robert Van Voorst, Western Theological Seminary
The historical evidence for Jesus himself is extraordinarily good. .... From time to time people try to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, but virtually all historians of whatever background now agree that he did"
NT Wright
Skepticalone
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10/6/2015 4:40:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 3:52:25 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/6/2015 3:23:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
Notice how IVS5K abandons a thread when the going gets hard?

What's hard about it? I'm yet a good challenge on a review of posts. If Jesus is said to have not existed we must conclude that Tiberius Caesar did not exist either.

I agree with dee-em. You've had several good replies. I think you're a little more interested in preaching than you are debating.
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dee-em
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10/6/2015 4:50:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 3:51:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known.

You don't have to look at anti-Christian groups. Try a Christian group:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Marcionite belief, Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown. See also the Unknown God of Hellenism and the Areopagus sermon.

In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb.

What? Who wrote that? Let me guess. Christians.

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

Of course not. Who was in charge of all documents from the 3rd and 4th centuries onwards for a millennium and more? Why would you expect that anything remotely critical of Christianity would survive the Christian burning and destruction when they did exactly this to anything pagan including priceless Greek philosophical works?

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Rubbish. This is all a figment of Christian imagination. I've already linked you to the Christian bishop of Antioch circa 180CE who wrote three entire books on Christian doctrine and fails to mention Jesus even once.

Then why didn't Christians recognize that a "Christian" bishop in Antioch some 150 years or so after the supposed death of Christ never even mentioned Him - and add a sentence or two to the text. After all, you write off every other mention in early literature as "Christian meddling." I believe if I were going to meddle with a work, I wouldn't have skipped over that one.

You tell us Anna. There's nothing obviously heretical about the books of Theophilus so they were left alone. Without checking, I would guess that it was an obscure work and not considered to be worth bothering with. It's fortunate that no-one meddled to add a spurious reference to Jesus as happened with so many other texts. Sheer good luck I would call it.
annanicole
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10/6/2015 5:02:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 4:50:13 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/6/2015 3:51:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known.

You don't have to look at anti-Christian groups. Try a Christian group:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Marcionite belief, Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown. See also the Unknown God of Hellenism and the Areopagus sermon.

In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb.

What? Who wrote that? Let me guess. Christians.

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

Of course not. Who was in charge of all documents from the 3rd and 4th centuries onwards for a millennium and more? Why would you expect that anything remotely critical of Christianity would survive the Christian burning and destruction when they did exactly this to anything pagan including priceless Greek philosophical works?

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Rubbish. This is all a figment of Christian imagination. I've already linked you to the Christian bishop of Antioch circa 180CE who wrote three entire books on Christian doctrine and fails to mention Jesus even once.

Then why didn't Christians recognize that a "Christian" bishop in Antioch some 150 years or so after the supposed death of Christ never even mentioned Him - and add a sentence or two to the text. After all, you write off every other mention in early literature as "Christian meddling." I believe if I were going to meddle with a work, I wouldn't have skipped over that one.

You tell us Anna. There's nothing obviously heretical about the books of Theophilus so they were left alone.

Really? Plenty of severely heretical books were neither lost to history nor meddled with.

Without checking, I would guess that it was an obscure work and not considered to be worth bothering with. It's fortunate that no-one meddled to add a spurious reference to Jesus as happened with so many other texts. Sheer good luck I would call it.

Ummm ... I'd say we have farrrrrrrrrrr more evidence for the historicity of Jesus than we do for this Theophilus of Antioch, yet you have positively identified him, assigned a date to him, and assigned an office to him. At any rate, you have attributed this apparent exception of "luck".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
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10/6/2015 5:03:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 3:52:25 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
At 10/6/2015 3:23:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
Notice how IVS5K abandons a thread when the going gets hard?

What's hard about it? I'm yet a good challenge on a review of posts.

Hand-waving dismissal. What else could we expect?

If Jesus is said to have not existed we must conclude that Tiberius Caesar did not exist either. And then all of hist9ry is in question.

Already answered. Repeating the same dumb assertion without addressing the numerous objections raised is dishonest.

We can look around andsee a religion with 2.3 billion followers and another with 2 billion for a whopping 4.3 billion people.

Argumentum ad populum fallacy.

You are not only in the vast minority on your view but you "the historian" take a stance contrary to almost ALL historians including Atheist ones. Anything else?

Wow. That saves you having to actually address the objections raised doesn't it? There is no shortage of secular scholars who challenge the historicity of Jesus:

https://en.wikipedia.org...
dee-em
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10/6/2015 5:24:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 3:55:57 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

One such reference would be the Sanhedrin Talmud, Sanhedrin 43. Surely you do not accuse Christians of (once again) meddling with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Sanhedrin 43a[68] relates the trial and execution of a sorcerer named Jesus ("Yeshu" in Hebrew) and his five disciples. The sorcerer is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover.[69]

If this is a reference to your Jesus then they somehow got their facts horribly wrong. Also the date of writing is around 200-500AD. This is the time that Christianity and Judaism were in severe conflict with the Christians beginning their long persecution of the Jews. Would it be surprising if there was some pushback from the Jews as they were being slandered by the Christians? I think I might parody the Jesus story too were I in their position. Regardless, the dating is way too late for anyone to know the truth of a story two or more centuries earlier.

And btw, the Christians did meddle. They fought tooth and nail to have such passages removed from the Talmud from the 5th century onwards. This is well documented. We are fortunate that fragments survived and we have been able to piece together the original text.
annanicole
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10/6/2015 5:29:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 5:24:59 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/6/2015 3:55:57 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

One such reference would be the Sanhedrin Talmud, Sanhedrin 43. Surely you do not accuse Christians of (once again) meddling with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Sanhedrin 43a[68] relates the trial and execution of a sorcerer named Jesus ("Yeshu" in Hebrew) and his five disciples. The sorcerer is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover.[69]

If this is a reference to your Jesus then they somehow got their facts horribly wrong. Also the date of writing is around 200-500AD. This is the time that Christianity and Judaism were in severe conflict with the Christians beginning their long persecution of the Jews. Would it be surprising if there was some pushback from the Jews as they were being slandered by the Christians? I think I might parody the Jesus story too were I in their position. Regardless, the dating is way too late for anyone to know the truth of a story two or more centuries earlier.

And btw, the Christians did meddle. They fought tooth and nail to have such passages removed from the Talmud from the 5th century onwards. This is well documented. We are fortunate that fragments survived and we have been able to piece together the original text.

i was simply suggesting a possible reference to which he was alluding. I never doubted that you'd come up with something against it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
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10/6/2015 5:34:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 5:02:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/6/2015 4:50:13 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/6/2015 3:51:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/5/2015 5:08:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/5/2015 3:22:08 AM, IntellectVsSpirit5000 wrote:
If Jesus really was a figure who did not exist, in history it would be expected that some anti-Christian group would have made this known.

You don't have to look at anti-Christian groups. Try a Christian group:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Marcionite belief, Christ was not a Jewish Messiah, but a spiritual entity that was sent by the Monad to reveal the truth about existence, and thus allowing humanity to escape the earthly trap of the demiurge. Marcion called God, the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world, and was wholly unknown. See also the Unknown God of Hellenism and the Areopagus sermon.

In reality the most shielded group towards Jesus and early Christianity were the Jews, and ironically, they affirmed Jesus existence when they attempted to accuse the disciples of stealing Jesus" body from the tomb.

What? Who wrote that? Let me guess. Christians.

Also we find Jesus material, and not in his favor, in the Jewish Talmud accusing him of treachery and leading Israel astray.

A reference please.

Those that hated Christianity the most had to have discovered that Jesus was a figment of the early Christians imagination if he was, and expose it, and that should have been the end of Christianity. This is not what happened.

Of course not. Who was in charge of all documents from the 3rd and 4th centuries onwards for a millennium and more? Why would you expect that anything remotely critical of Christianity would survive the Christian burning and destruction when they did exactly this to anything pagan including priceless Greek philosophical works?

They knew for a fact that Jesus existed, and in reality, he was a threat to them.

Rubbish. This is all a figment of Christian imagination. I've already linked you to the Christian bishop of Antioch circa 180CE who wrote three entire books on Christian doctrine and fails to mention Jesus even once.

Then why didn't Christians recognize that a "Christian" bishop in Antioch some 150 years or so after the supposed death of Christ never even mentioned Him - and add a sentence or two to the text. After all, you write off every other mention in early literature as "Christian meddling." I believe if I were going to meddle with a work, I wouldn't have skipped over that one.

You tell us Anna. There's nothing obviously heretical about the books of Theophilus so they were left alone.

Really? Plenty of severely heretical books were neither lost to history nor meddled with.

Without checking, I would guess that it was an obscure work and not considered to be worth bothering with. It's fortunate that no-one meddled to add a spurious reference to Jesus as happened with so many other texts. Sheer good luck I would call it.

Ummm ... I'd say we have farrrrrrrrrrr more evidence for the historicity of Jesus than we do for this Theophilus of Antioch, yet you have positively identified him, assigned a date to him, and assigned an office to him.

It's not me doing any of those things, it's biblical scholars. Do you have any reason to doubt Theophilus (who actually wrote something unlike Jesus) or is this just pointless carping?

At any rate, you have attributed this apparent exception of "luck".

Sure. The forgery mill and interpolaters of the 2nd and 3rd centuries missed something either through incompetence or negligence. Aren't we lucky?