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What Do Jehovah"s Witnesses Really Believe?

MadCornishBiker
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10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is a lot of disinformation and propaganda spread about JW, but here it is, from the horses mouth, as the saying goes, including references.

"As Jehovah"s Witnesses, we strive to adhere to the form of Christianity that Jesus taught and that his apostles practiced. This article summarizes our basic beliefs.

God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus."Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17.

Bible. We recognize the Bible as God"s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament." Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah"s Witnesses built "their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there." *
While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally."Revelation 1:1.

Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine."John 14:28.

The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God"s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in "the last days.""2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.

Jesus is the King of God"s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914."Revelation 11:15.

(I feel I should add, that in fact he has always ruled as King over all who strive to obey him and accept him as such)

Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person"s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned"it comes through "the undeserved kindness of God.""Galatians 2:16, 21.

Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people"144,000"will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom."Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.

Earth. God created the earth to be mankind"s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise."Psalm 37:11, 34.

Evil and suffering. These began when one of God"s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever.

Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment.
God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God"s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection."Revelation 20:14, 15.

Family. We adhere to God"s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed."Ephesians 5:22"6:1.

Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following:"

Praying to God."Philippians 4:6.

Reading and studying the Bible."Psalm 1:1-3.

Meditating on what we learn from the Bible."Psalm 77:12.

Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage
fellow Witnesses and others."Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25.

Preaching the "good news of the Kingdom.""Matthew 24:14.

Helping those in need."James 2:14-17.

Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work."Psalm 127:1.

Sharing in disaster relief."Acts 11:27-30.

Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations.

The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah"s Witnesses worldwide."Matthew 24:45.

Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience."Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.

Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God"s laws."Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29.

Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." He also said that Christians "are no part of the world." (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to "work what is good toward all," yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters."Romans 14:12.

If you have further questions about the beliefs of Jehovah"s Witnesses, you can read more about us on our website, contact one of our offices, attend a meeting at a Kingdom Hall near you, or speak to one of the Witnesses in your area."

If you are not at the least working hard to comply with all the above, then you are not truly a follower of Christ, nor a worker for Jehovah his father. No-one, least of all Christ, expects perfection, but we are expected to be working towards it.

I hope that sets the record straight.
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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10/5/2015 1:31:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 1:22:26 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:12:52 PM, bulproof wrote:
Crap.

Nope.

You may understand that nobody believes you and your lies, but probably not.
You and understanding have never actually met. LMFAO
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.
truth_is_was_will_be
Posts: 55
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10/5/2015 6:44:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a lot of disinformation and propaganda spread about JW, but here it is, from the horses mouth, as the saying goes, including references.

"As Jehovah"s Witnesses, we strive to adhere to the form of Christianity that Jesus taught and that his apostles practiced. This article summarizes our basic beliefs. : :

Jesus never taught Christianity. Jesus was used by God to testify to His knowledge about the future and how He created everything. Jesus also learned about the beast of Daniel where all religious dogma and traditions came.

No JW or other Christian groups know what the beast of Daniel is.

God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus."Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17.

Bible. We recognize the Bible as God"s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament." Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah"s Witnesses built "their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there." *
While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally."Revelation 1:1.

Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine."John 14:28.

The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God"s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in "the last days.""2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.

Jesus is the King of God"s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914."Revelation 11:15.

(I feel I should add, that in fact he has always ruled as King over all who strive to obey him and accept him as such)

Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person"s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned"it comes through "the undeserved kindness of God.""Galatians 2:16, 21.

Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people"144,000"will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom."Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.

Earth. God created the earth to be mankind"s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise."Psalm 37:11, 34.

Evil and suffering. These began when one of God"s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever.

Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment.
God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God"s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection."Revelation 20:14, 15.

Family. We adhere to God"s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed."Ephesians 5:22"6:1.

Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following:"

Praying to God."Philippians 4:6.

Reading and studying the Bible."Psalm 1:1-3.

Meditating on what we learn from the Bible."Psalm 77:12.

Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage
fellow Witnesses and others."Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25.

Preaching the "good news of the Kingdom.""Matthew 24:14.

Helping those in need."James 2:14-17.

Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work."Psalm 127:1.

Sharing in disaster relief."Acts 11:27-30.

Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations.

The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah"s Witnesses worldwide."Matthew 24:45.

Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience."Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.

Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God"s laws."Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29.

Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." He also said that Christians "are no part of the world." (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to "work what is good toward all," yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters."Romans 14:12.

If you have further questions about the beliefs of Jehovah"s Witnesses, you can read more about us on our website, contact one of our offices, attend a meeting at a Kingdom Hall near you, or speak to one of the Witnesses in your area."

If you are not at the least working hard to comply with all the above, then you are not truly a follower of Christ, nor a worker for Jehovah his father. No-one, least of all Christ, expects perfection, but we are expected to be working towards it.

I hope that sets the record straight.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/5/2015 6:46:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.

No you do not.
You know perfectly well the Governing Body explicitly forbids witnesses from reading, watching and listening to material that is critical of the organization.

So either

A ) You feel the Governing Body has overstepped its authority. In which case, you're not a JW, are you?

B ) You feel the Governing Body is justified in this prohibition, in which case, you're not being honest when you say you trust people to make up their own minds.

It's good you're starting new threads on Jehovah's Witnesses. Gives me a chance to post links to critical material people might otherwise have missed.

Thanks!
truth_is_was_will_be
Posts: 55
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10/5/2015 6:49:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do. : :

God's people think they make up their own minds but they actually don't because of God's will for them.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/5/2015 8:35:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 6:46:14 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.


No you do not.
You know perfectly well the Governing Body explicitly forbids witnesses from reading, watching and listening to material that is critical of the organization.

So either

A ) You feel the Governing Body has overstepped its authority. In which case, you're not a JW, are you?

B ) You feel the Governing Body is justified in this prohibition, in which case, you're not being honest when you say you trust people to make up their own minds.

It's good you're starting new threads on Jehovah's Witnesses. Gives me a chance to post links to critical material people might otherwise have missed.

Thanks!

You are welcome. The JWs have nothing to fear from such materials, nor from the lies you have put in this post or other like it.

The biggest lie that you insist on spreading is that JWs prohibit the reading of opposers material. They do not. They cannot. If people do so, even if they find out a+ that they have there is nothing they can do about it.

Therefore your accusation is not only false, but without any substance whatever.

Apart from which those who have read the material from both sides with an honest heart almost invariably become JWs.

Remember John 4:23-24
ASV(i) 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Jehovah is actively looking for a certain kind of person. One who is honest at heart.

John 6:44
ASV(i) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Those who become JWs come from amongst the noes that Jehovah himself has draw to their side.

If Jehovah wants them to see the truth of his word and that of his servants,. they will do so. They will have no choice on that.

Their only choice then will be what they do with what they have seen and learned.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/5/2015 8:48:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:35:31 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:46:14 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.


No you do not.
You know perfectly well the Governing Body explicitly forbids witnesses from reading, watching and listening to material that is critical of the organization.

So either

A ) You feel the Governing Body has overstepped its authority. In which case, you're not a JW, are you?

B ) You feel the Governing Body is justified in this prohibition, in which case, you're not being honest when you say you trust people to make up their own minds.

It's good you're starting new threads on Jehovah's Witnesses. Gives me a chance to post links to critical material people might otherwise have missed.

Thanks!

You are welcome. The JWs have nothing to fear from such materials, nor from the lies you have put in this post or other like it.

The biggest lie that you insist on spreading is that JWs prohibit the reading of opposers material. They do not. They cannot. If people do so, even if they find out a+ that they have there is nothing they can do about it.

Therefore your accusation is not only false, but without any substance whatever.

Apart from which those who have read the material from both sides with an honest heart almost invariably become JWs.

Remember John 4:23-24
ASV(i) 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Jehovah is actively looking for a certain kind of person. One who is honest at heart.

John 6:44
ASV(i) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Those who become JWs come from amongst the noes that Jehovah himself has draw to their side.

If Jehovah wants them to see the truth of his word and that of his servants,. they will do so. They will have no choice on that.

Their only choice then will be what they do with what they have seen and learned.

I'm not going to bother with you. By merely reading through any Watchtower from recent years, or by simply attending any congress, anybody can learn for themselves what is Watchtower's real position on this.

They forbid it.
Explicitly.

This is disgusting misinformation you are spreading. In the past I have given you the benefit of the doubt when others accused you of systematically lying.

I was wrong.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 8:48:49 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:35:31 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:46:14 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.


No you do not.
You know perfectly well the Governing Body explicitly forbids witnesses from reading, watching and listening to material that is critical of the organization.

So either

A ) You feel the Governing Body has overstepped its authority. In which case, you're not a JW, are you?

B ) You feel the Governing Body is justified in this prohibition, in which case, you're not being honest when you say you trust people to make up their own minds.

It's good you're starting new threads on Jehovah's Witnesses. Gives me a chance to post links to critical material people might otherwise have missed.

Thanks!

You are welcome. The JWs have nothing to fear from such materials, nor from the lies you have put in this post or other like it.

The biggest lie that you insist on spreading is that JWs prohibit the reading of opposers material. They do not. They cannot. If people do so, even if they find out a+ that they have there is nothing they can do about it.

Therefore your accusation is not only false, but without any substance whatever.

Apart from which those who have read the material from both sides with an honest heart almost invariably become JWs.

Remember John 4:23-24
ASV(i) 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Jehovah is actively looking for a certain kind of person. One who is honest at heart.

John 6:44
ASV(i) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Those who become JWs come from amongst the noes that Jehovah himself has draw to their side.

If Jehovah wants them to see the truth of his word and that of his servants,. they will do so. They will have no choice on that.

Their only choice then will be what they do with what they have seen and learned.

I'm not going to bother with you. By merely reading through any Watchtower from recent years, or by simply attending any congress, anybody can learn for themselves what is Watchtower's real position on this.

Of course they can, and they will know just how wrong you are.

Simple as.

I know their position well enough since I was one, and will be again.


They forbid it.
Explicitly.

Nope, they do not.


This is disgusting misinformation you are spreading. In the past I have given you the benefit of the doubt when others accused you of systematically lying.

I was wrong.

Nope you weren't. I have no need to lie since I can back up what I say.

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:48:49 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 8:35:31 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:46:14 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:34:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/5/2015 6:14:51 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Propaganda

I hope that sets the record straight.

A gang of half a dozen unlettered men cogitating, a nefarious religious corporation that would rather protect itself than turn paedophiles down to the police, a cult as authoritarian as the North-Korean leadership, a worldwide congregation of around 8 million victims of victims.

Victims of victims.

Read the first hand account from a former member of the Jehovah's Witnesses top leadership, the Governing Body. Contains fac simile reproductions of Watchtower literature, i. e., evidence.

http://www.amazon.com...

http://www.amazon.com...

Not propaganda. Truth.

What's up?

Don't you trust people to make up their own minds?

I do.


No you do not.
You know perfectly well the Governing Body explicitly forbids witnesses from reading, watching and listening to material that is critical of the organization.

So either

A ) You feel the Governing Body has overstepped its authority. In which case, you're not a JW, are you?

B ) You feel the Governing Body is justified in this prohibition, in which case, you're not being honest when you say you trust people to make up their own minds.

It's good you're starting new threads on Jehovah's Witnesses. Gives me a chance to post links to critical material people might otherwise have missed.

Thanks!

You are welcome. The JWs have nothing to fear from such materials, nor from the lies you have put in this post or other like it.

The biggest lie that you insist on spreading is that JWs prohibit the reading of opposers material. They do not. They cannot. If people do so, even if they find out a+ that they have there is nothing they can do about it.

Therefore your accusation is not only false, but without any substance whatever.

Apart from which those who have read the material from both sides with an honest heart almost invariably become JWs.

Remember John 4:23-24
ASV(i) 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Jehovah is actively looking for a certain kind of person. One who is honest at heart.

John 6:44
ASV(i) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Those who become JWs come from amongst the noes that Jehovah himself has draw to their side.

If Jehovah wants them to see the truth of his word and that of his servants,. they will do so. They will have no choice on that.

Their only choice then will be what they do with what they have seen and learned.

I'm not going to bother with you. By merely reading through any Watchtower from recent years, or by simply attending any congress, anybody can learn for themselves what is Watchtower's real position on this.

Of course they can, and they will know just how wrong you are.

Simple as.

I know their position well enough since I was one, and will be again.


They forbid it.
Explicitly.

Nope, they do not.


This is disgusting misinformation you are spreading. In the past I have given you the benefit of the doubt when others accused you of systematically lying.

I was wrong.


Nope you weren't. I have no need to lie since I can back up what I say.

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.
What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."

"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"

( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Your move, MadCornishBiker.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/6/2015 7:29:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.

What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."


"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"


( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

They don't say it is OK. As I have already said they advise against it, but the above shows no absolute ban just suggestions as to how we should be.

The point being that if you haven't examined opposing views before becoming a JW then you haven't done your job properly.

By the time you have taken the long road towards being a JW what reason do you have to read what you know to be false already?

You read much more into what is said than is really there, in your desperation to make your point.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a JW?

To reach a state where you can be accepted for Baptism?

I suspect you have no idea whatever.

It is not like those Apostate churches who are desperate for members and will take on board anyone who wants to join.

To become a JW you have to meet fairly rigorous scriptural standards. You don;t merely have to believe, you have to have a least a measure of faith, trust in Jehovah.


If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Why should I retract? I tell nothing but truth.


Your move, MadCornishBiker.

Actually it is scripture that says they are mentally diseased, the Watchtower simply repeats what scripture says.

I have underlined the relevant word in these other translations.

1 Timothy 6:4
ASV(i) 4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Doting denotes mental weakness.

1 Timothy 6:4
ALT(i) 4 having been swollen up with pride, knowing nothing, but obsessing about disputes and quarrels about words [fig., petty controversies], from which comes envy [or, jealousy], strife [or, bitter conflict], blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Sounds a bit like you in fact.

Certainly fits Annanicole who is always arguing with me over words.

1 Timothy 6:4
CLV(i) 4 he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,

1 Timothy 6:4
Rotherham(i) 4 He is beclouded, knowing, nothing, rightly, but is diseased about questionings, and word-battles"out of which spring envy, strife, defamations, wicked surmising,

As I said, it is not the Watchtower that says it, they just repeat what scripture says.

That is the point about the Watchtower, everything they teach comes from scripture.

The reason that scripture describes them as suffering from some form of mental disorder is that any well balanced person cannot deny the things they deny, because they will have checked them out thoroughly before making a judgement.

Only unbalanced people like you go off half cocked with badly worked out argumentation and no real know;ledge of both sides of the issue.

Unfortunately Satan is very good at keeping people off balance.
Hitchian
Posts: 764
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10/6/2015 8:02:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 7:29:41 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.

What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."


"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"


( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

They don't say it is OK. As I have already said they advise against it, but the above shows no absolute ban just suggestions as to how we should be.

The point being that if you haven't examined opposing views before becoming a JW then you haven't done your job properly.

By the time you have taken the long road towards being a JW what reason do you have to read what you know to be false already?

You read much more into what is said than is really there, in your desperation to make your point.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a JW?

To reach a state where you can be accepted for Baptism?

I suspect you have no idea whatever.

It is not like those Apostate churches who are desperate for members and will take on board anyone who wants to join.

To become a JW you have to meet fairly rigorous scriptural standards. You don;t merely have to believe, you have to have a least a measure of faith, trust in Jehovah.


If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Why should I retract? I tell nothing but truth.


Your move, MadCornishBiker.

Actually it is scripture that says they are mentally diseased, the Watchtower simply repeats what scripture says.

I have underlined the relevant word in these other translations.

1 Timothy 6:4
ASV(i) 4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Doting denotes mental weakness.

1 Timothy 6:4
ALT(i) 4 having been swollen up with pride, knowing nothing, but obsessing about disputes and quarrels about words [fig., petty controversies], from which comes envy [or, jealousy], strife [or, bitter conflict], blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Sounds a bit like you in fact.

Certainly fits Annanicole who is always arguing with me over words.

1 Timothy 6:4
CLV(i) 4 he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,

1 Timothy 6:4
Rotherham(i) 4 He is beclouded, knowing, nothing, rightly, but is diseased about questionings, and word-battles"out of which spring envy, strife, defamations, wicked surmising,

As I said, it is not the Watchtower that says it, they just repeat what scripture says.

That is the point about the Watchtower, everything they teach comes from scripture.

The reason that scripture describes them as suffering from some form of mental disorder is that any well balanced person cannot deny the things they deny, because they will have checked them out thoroughly before making a judgement.

Only unbalanced people like you go off half cocked with badly worked out argumentation and no real know;ledge of both sides of the issue.

Unfortunately Satan is very good at keeping people off balance.

So no quote whatsoever to support your claim, right? Not a single excerpt from any Watchtower publications? Not one? Not even from the remote past?

I see.

I did not ask you for a bible verse. You were asked for a quote, any quote, from Watchtower material that would testify the Governing Body does not prohibit witnesses from viewing apostate material, which, on the other hand, is plainly indicated by the many quotes I provided.

You've been caught red handed.
You are a liar.
phoungyu
Posts: 30
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10/6/2015 8:29:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 7:29:41 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.

What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."


"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"


( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

They don't say it is OK. As I have already said they advise against it, but the above shows no absolute ban just suggestions as to how we should be.

The point being that if you haven't examined opposing views before becoming a JW then you haven't done your job properly.

By the time you have taken the long road towards being a JW what reason do you have to read what you know to be false already?

You read much more into what is said than is really there, in your desperation to make your point.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a JW?

To reach a state where you can be accepted for Baptism?

I suspect you have no idea whatever.

It is not like those Apostate churches who are desperate for members and will take on board anyone who wants to join.

To become a JW you have to meet fairly rigorous scriptural standards. You don;t merely have to believe, you have to have a least a measure of faith, trust in Jehovah.

To become one of God's believers, all you have to do is listen to his voice, which is the true gospel preached by one of God's saints. God's believers don't have to deal with a bunch of heathens who call themselves Christians in order to believe in Him and His voice.

My sheep will hear My voice and disregard the voices of heathens who call themselves Christians.

If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Why should I retract? I tell nothing but truth.


Your move, MadCornishBiker.

Actually it is scripture that says they are mentally diseased, the Watchtower simply repeats what scripture says.

I have underlined the relevant word in these other translations.

1 Timothy 6:4
ASV(i) 4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Doting denotes mental weakness.

1 Timothy 6:4
ALT(i) 4 having been swollen up with pride, knowing nothing, but obsessing about disputes and quarrels about words [fig., petty controversies], from which comes envy [or, jealousy], strife [or, bitter conflict], blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Sounds a bit like you in fact.

Certainly fits Annanicole who is always arguing with me over words.

1 Timothy 6:4
CLV(i) 4 he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,

1 Timothy 6:4
Rotherham(i) 4 He is beclouded, knowing, nothing, rightly, but is diseased about questionings, and word-battles"out of which spring envy, strife, defamations, wicked surmising,

As I said, it is not the Watchtower that says it, they just repeat what scripture says.

That is the point about the Watchtower, everything they teach comes from scripture.

The reason that scripture describes them as suffering from some form of mental disorder is that any well balanced person cannot deny the things they deny, because they will have checked them out thoroughly before making a judgement.

Only unbalanced people like you go off half cocked with badly worked out argumentation and no real know;ledge of both sides of the issue.

Unfortunately Satan is very good at keeping people off balance. : ;
phoungyu
Posts: 30
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10/6/2015 8:34:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 7:29:41 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.

What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."


"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"


( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

They don't say it is OK. As I have already said they advise against it, but the above shows no absolute ban just suggestions as to how we should be.

The point being that if you haven't examined opposing views before becoming a JW then you haven't done your job properly.

By the time you have taken the long road towards being a JW what reason do you have to read what you know to be false already?

You read much more into what is said than is really there, in your desperation to make your point.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a JW?

To reach a state where you can be accepted for Baptism?

I suspect you have no idea whatever.

It is not like those Apostate churches who are desperate for members and will take on board anyone who wants to join.

To become a JW you have to meet fairly rigorous scriptural standards. You don;t merely have to believe, you have to have a least a measure of faith, trust in Jehovah.


If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Why should I retract? I tell nothing but truth.


Your move, MadCornishBiker.

Actually it is scripture that says they are mentally diseased, the Watchtower simply repeats what scripture says.

I have underlined the relevant word in these other translations.

1 Timothy 6:4
ASV(i) 4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Doting denotes mental weakness.

1 Timothy 6:4
ALT(i) 4 having been swollen up with pride, knowing nothing, but obsessing about disputes and quarrels about words [fig., petty controversies], from which comes envy [or, jealousy], strife [or, bitter conflict], blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Sounds a bit like you in fact.

Certainly fits Annanicole who is always arguing with me over words.

1 Timothy 6:4
CLV(i) 4 he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,

1 Timothy 6:4
Rotherham(i) 4 He is beclouded, knowing, nothing, rightly, but is diseased about questionings, and word-battles"out of which spring envy, strife, defamations, wicked surmising,

As I said, it is not the Watchtower that says it, they just repeat what scripture says.

That is the point about the Watchtower, everything they teach comes from scripture.

The reason that scripture describes them as suffering from some form of mental disorder is that any well balanced person cannot deny the things they deny, because they will have checked them out thoroughly before making a judgement.

Only unbalanced people like you go off half cocked with badly worked out argumentation and no real know;ledge of both sides of the issue.

Unfortunately Satan is very good at keeping people off balance. : :

If the Bible could speak and understand who is reading it, all the JW's and other Christians would not be allowed to interpret the prophecies in it. The only ones who have authority to read the prophecies are God's chosen saints who testify to His knowledge and write the stories about the future that fulfill all the prophecies.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/6/2015 8:48:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 8:02:33 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 7:29:41 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 6:20:03 PM, Hitchian wrote:
At 10/6/2015 5:49:13 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

What would I have to gain from lying?

Nothing.

What could I lose if I did?

My hope for eternal life on a Paradise earth.

Work it out for yourself.

I have no reason to lie, and every reason not to.

So, I don't lie, it wouldn't be worth it.

Show me one quote form a recent Watchtower publication that says it's ok to so much as take a peek at apostate material. One quote.

"Strong hope enables us to resist apostates and their gangrenous "empty speeches.""

"The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning.

What must we do to avoid false teachers? We do not speak to them or invite them into our houses. We also do not read their books, watch them on television, read what they write on the Internet, or add our own comments about what they write on the Internet. Why are we so determined to avoid them? First of all, it is because we love "the God of truth." So we do not want to listen to false teachings that go against the truth in God"s Word."


"We are determined to avoid apostates because we love Jehovah and His organization"


( Source : http://www.jwfacts.com... )

If you do provide just one, 1 , single recent quote where the Watchtower says it's ok for members to read apostate material, I will stand corrected and apologise.

They don't say it is OK. As I have already said they advise against it, but the above shows no absolute ban just suggestions as to how we should be.

The point being that if you haven't examined opposing views before becoming a JW then you haven't done your job properly.

By the time you have taken the long road towards being a JW what reason do you have to read what you know to be false already?

You read much more into what is said than is really there, in your desperation to make your point.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to become a JW?

To reach a state where you can be accepted for Baptism?

I suspect you have no idea whatever.

It is not like those Apostate churches who are desperate for members and will take on board anyone who wants to join.

To become a JW you have to meet fairly rigorous scriptural standards. You don;t merely have to believe, you have to have a least a measure of faith, trust in Jehovah.


If not, and you don't retract, I'll have no choice but to call you out.

Why should I retract? I tell nothing but truth.


Your move, MadCornishBiker.

Actually it is scripture that says they are mentally diseased, the Watchtower simply repeats what scripture says.

I have underlined the relevant word in these other translations.

1 Timothy 6:4
ASV(i) 4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Doting denotes mental weakness.

1 Timothy 6:4
ALT(i) 4 having been swollen up with pride, knowing nothing, but obsessing about disputes and quarrels about words [fig., petty controversies], from which comes envy [or, jealousy], strife [or, bitter conflict], blasphemies, evil suspicions,

Sounds a bit like you in fact.

Certainly fits Annanicole who is always arguing with me over words.

1 Timothy 6:4
CLV(i) 4 he is conceited, versed in nothing, but morbid about questionings and controversies, out of which is coming envy, strife, calumnies, wicked suspicions,

1 Timothy 6:4
Rotherham(i) 4 He is beclouded, knowing, nothing, rightly, but is diseased about questionings, and word-battles"out of which spring envy, strife, defamations, wicked surmising,

As I said, it is not the Watchtower that says it, they just repeat what scripture says.

That is the point about the Watchtower, everything they teach comes from scripture.

The reason that scripture describes them as suffering from some form of mental disorder is that any well balanced person cannot deny the things they deny, because they will have checked them out thoroughly before making a judgement.

Only unbalanced people like you go off half cocked with badly worked out argumentation and no real know;ledge of both sides of the issue.

Unfortunately Satan is very good at keeping people off balance.


So no quote whatsoever to support your claim, right? Not a single excerpt from any Watchtower publications? Not one? Not even from the remote past?

Actually the quote you provided supports it really, because it proves that they do not ban it, simply advise against it, there is not a "you must not" in it.

Read it again properly.


I see.

No, you don't, that's the problem. You see only what you want to see.


I did not ask you for a bible verse. You were asked for a quote, any quote, from Watchtower material that would testify the Governing Body does not prohibit witnesses from viewing apostate material, which, on the other hand, is plainly indicated by the many quotes I provided.

You provided that yourself.

All you have shown is that they don't advise it, as I say, there wasn't a single must not in it. Only that we must obey what scripture says, but that should go without saying anyway,

As I said. Anyone who has become a JW has already checked out both sides anyway.


You've been caught red handed.
You are a liar.

Nope, not in the least. I have always taught myself that it is not worth reading these things, and I don't because they never have anything in them that I haven't proved wrong long ago.

Satan only has so many cards up his sleeve, and they are all extremely dog-eared by now.

You have yet to provide anything which does anything stronger than suggest, or say what they do or don't do.

Maybe you didn't ask for a scripture, but I showed you where the JWs get it all from.

If anyone wants to follow Christ, they should obey scripture because you cannot follow Christ and ignore what it says.

Simple as that.

So carry on, you haven't proved your point yet, only proved mine, that they advise against reading such things but do not ban it.

Still, since you are going to call me a liar unless I agree with you, what is the point in me saying any more?. I am just wasting truth on someone who only wants to trample those truths underfoot.

Should I do what scripture tells me I should?

Matthew 7:6
ASV(i) 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you.

After all, I am giving you truths which you are simply trampling underfoot. So, should I say more to you?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Dear MCB,

For the second time in two days you've answered a question you posed to yourself, which nobody else asked, rather than doing as more respectful members do, and asking questions of other members, while making yourself available to answer questions other members may have of you.

Giving rein to conceited and self-indulgent proselytising, you've created your own little airless MCB echo-chamber, and in doing this, your disrespect of the forum and its discourse is palpable.

Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?

Best,

Ruv. (Copied at: http://www.debate.org...)
phoungyu
Posts: 30
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10/6/2015 9:03:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Dear MCB,

For the second time in two days you've answered a question you posed to yourself, which nobody else asked, rather than doing as more respectful members do, and asking questions of other members, while making yourself available to answer questions other members may have of you.

Giving rein to conceited and self-indulgent proselytising, you've created your own little airless MCB echo-chamber, and in doing this, your disrespect of the forum and its discourse is palpable.

Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?

Humility isn't known by religious people. That's why they keep on lying to you and each other.

Best,

Ruv. (Copied at: http://www.debate.org...)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Dear MCB,

For the second time in two days you've answered a question you posed to yourself, which nobody else asked, rather than doing as more respectful members do, and asking questions of other members, while making yourself available to answer questions other members may have of you.

Giving rein to conceited and self-indulgent proselytising, you've created your own little airless MCB echo-chamber, and in doing this, your disrespect of the forum and its discourse is palpable.

Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?

Best,

Ruv. (Copied at: http://www.debate.org...)

You can suggest what you like, but I will continue my God given commission to spread the Hood News about Jehovah's Kingdom under his only begotten son, the Christ, as I do in order to save the eternal lives of those who are interested in being a part of his soon to come new system.

If you don't want that, just don't read my posts, the choice is yours. After all I am not forcing anyone to read them.

I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/7/2015 3:37:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.

In fact that is exactly what it is.

Armageddon is coming whether we want to believe in it or not. What I teach shows people the only way to survive it is they want to.

It is to me saying that, it is the true God Jehovah himself who has provided the means, and his son who has made it possible.

You can believe it, or not, but you cannot escape it, it will happen.
JJ50
Posts: 2,144
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10/7/2015 3:48:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 3:37:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.

In fact that is exactly what it is.

Armageddon is coming whether we want to believe in it or not. What I teach shows people the only way to survive it is they want to.

It is to me saying that, it is the true God Jehovah himself who has provided the means, and his son who has made it possible.

You can believe it, or not, but you cannot escape it, it will happen.

BALONEY!
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/7/2015 4:29:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 3:37:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.

In fact that is exactly what it is.

A public service is what you'd like it to be, since that would validate your convictions.

But the reason it isn't a public service is that promoting convictions as fact is never public service -- it's self-service: an expression of conceit.

This is why you have to pretend you're writing to interested readers, MCB. You can't get members more than casually interested because convictions aren't as interesting as relevant facts. Rather than accepting that your failure to communicate is the consequence of your own intellectual deficits, you're doing what all conceited people do, and blaming the listeners for your inadequacies -- hence the need to pretend you have an audience that you actually lack.

I'm serious when I say you should be more curious about matters outside your faith. Not only would it improve you morally and intellectually, it would help equip you better for the conversations you want to have.

Or in the short if you learned more, you'd be more interesting to talk to, and your ideas would matter more to people other than yourself.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,014
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10/7/2015 5:00:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
There is a lot of disinformation and propaganda spread about JW, but here it is, from the horses mouth, as the saying goes, including references.

"As Jehovah"s Witnesses, we strive to adhere to the form of Christianity that Jesus taught and that his apostles practiced. This article summarizes our basic beliefs.

God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus."Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17.

Bible. We recognize the Bible as God"s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament." Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah"s Witnesses built "their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there." *
While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally."Revelation 1:1.

Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine."John 14:28.

The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God"s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in "the last days.""2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.

Jesus is the King of God"s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914."Revelation 11:15.

(I feel I should add, that in fact he has always ruled as King over all who strive to obey him and accept him as such)

Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person"s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned"it comes through "the undeserved kindness of God.""Galatians 2:16, 21.

Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people"144,000"will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom."Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.

Earth. God created the earth to be mankind"s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise."Psalm 37:11, 34.

Evil and suffering. These began when one of God"s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called "Satan" and "Devil," persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever.

Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment.
God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God"s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection."Revelation 20:14, 15.

Family. We adhere to God"s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed."Ephesians 5:22"6:1.

Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following:"

Praying to God."Philippians 4:6.

Reading and studying the Bible."Psalm 1:1-3.

Meditating on what we learn from the Bible."Psalm 77:12.

Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage
fellow Witnesses and others."Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25.

Preaching the "good news of the Kingdom.""Matthew 24:14.

Helping those in need."James 2:14-17.

Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work."Psalm 127:1.

Sharing in disaster relief."Acts 11:27-30.

Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations.

The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah"s Witnesses worldwide."Matthew 24:45.

Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience."Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.

Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God"s laws."Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29.

Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." He also said that Christians "are no part of the world." (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to "work what is good toward all," yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters."Romans 14:12.

If you have further questions about the beliefs of Jehovah"s Witnesses, you can read more about us on our website, contact one of our offices, attend a meeting at a Kingdom Hall near you, or speak to one of the Witnesses in your area."

If you are not at the least working hard to comply with all the above, then you are not truly a follower of Christ, nor a worker for Jehovah his father. No-one, least of all Christ, expects perfection, but we are expected to be working towards it.

I hope that sets the record straight.

Hard to see how any member can be disfellowshipped and shunned by the JW when their guidelines are relatively easy to follow? But you managed to get expelled and continue to be shunned by the JW.
Trying to lecture here isn't going to get you reinstated. You need to repent and quit pleading your case on debate forums.
Admit you are sick and seek help. The JW are not taking you back not after 10 years of shunning and disfellowshipped. They don't have a place for repeat offenders.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/7/2015 5:28:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 5:00:32 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/5/2015 1:11:48 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

I hope that sets the record straight.

Hard to see how any member can be disfellowshipped and shunned by the JW when their guidelines are relatively easy to follow? But you managed to get expelled and continue to be shunned by the JW.

Well I managed it didn't I?

Trying to lecture here isn't going to get you reinstated. You need to repent and quit pleading your case on debate forums.

I am not pleading any case on here. I am simply doing what is required of me.

Of course I won't get reinstated posting on here. That requires me to start attending meetings again, and when I decided the time is right I will do so.

I repented long before I was disfellowshipped, but they did not feel they had seen sufficient evidence of it, partly because I had only just started attending that Congregation, so they knew nothing about me other than my past record with other congregations.

I didn't start attending meetings down here until I was 100% certain that not only was I living right, but I could stay that way.

Admit you are sick and seek help. The JW are not taking you back not after 10 years of shunning and disfellowshipped. They don't hav

I haven't been disfellowshipped for 10 years. More like 6, pushing 7.

I have never denied being a life long depressive, and I get all the help I need thanks. you know nothing about me other than what I have revealed on here, and you have persisted in using against me.

However, the fact remains that my depression has been under control for a good few years now, and despite your strenuous efforts to drive me back into depression it remains so.

That is not my reason for not attending meetings My reasons are personal, and only indirectly health related.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/7/2015 5:39:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 4:29:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 3:37:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.

In fact that is exactly what it is.

A public service is what you'd like it to be, since that would validate your convictions.

Since when was offering people the chance to escape the global annihilation that Armageddon will be anything less than a public service.

I have no need to have my preachign and teaching validated by any human. It comes from the pagegs of God's word and is his message not mine.

God needs no validation at all.


But the reason it isn't a public service is that promoting convictions as fact is never public service -- it's self-service: an expression of conceit.

It is far from an expression of conceit, it is simple what I have to do. I am neither more nor less a slave of Jehovah, and a servant of his son. That is something which is open to all who wish to become such.

The message is not even mine, it is God's. I am noting more than a messenger, one of 8 million or so on this earth at the moment.


This is why you have to pretend you're writing to interested readers, MCB. You can't get members more than casually interested because convictions aren't as interesting as relevant facts. Rather than accepting that your failure to communicate is the consequence of your own intellectual deficits, you're doing what all conceited people do, and blaming the listeners for your inadequacies -- hence the need to pretend you have an audience that you actually lack.

I don;t pretend anything.

I already know, because Christ himself made it clear, that few would be interested, but despite that I still have to carry out my commission.

The real conceit comes from those who fee;l they know better than the God and creator of this universe.


I'm serious when I say you should be more curious about matters outside your faith. Not only would it improve you morally and intellectually, it would help equip you better for the conversations you want to have.

You are making an unwarranted assumption there. I have many interests, and a wide, though not particularly deep, knowledge of the sciences.

However my main area of interest always has been, and will always remain, people. The only change to that is that now I have learned and accepted the truth of what is happening on this earth I have even more reason to exercise that interest.


Or in the short if you learned more, you'd be more interesting to talk to, and your ideas would matter more to people other than yourself.

I don't wish to be interesting to talk to. I wish to help as many as possible to save their eternal lives. I cannot think of anything else of sufficient important at this time especially. Most certainly nothing that will benefit mankind more.

I am happy to pursue my own interests for my own sake, but for the sake of others I pursue the same course as Christ did before me, and the Apostles after him.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/7/2015 5:40:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 3:48:35 PM, JJ50 wrote:
At 10/7/2015 3:37:21 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/7/2015 2:14:04 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 10/7/2015 12:56:00 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/6/2015 8:58:22 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Here's a novel idea: rather than fabricating curiosity to excuse preaching to disinterested members, why not exhibit some genuine curiosity of your own?
I don't read what I am not interested in, and I would never be so arrogant as to pretend I had the right to suggest someone else should not post what they wish to.
Yet your arrogance does run to pretending that patronising intellectual dishonesty is a public service.

In fact that is exactly what it is.

Armageddon is coming whether we want to believe in it or not. What I teach shows people the only way to survive it is they want to.

It is to me saying that, it is the true God Jehovah himself who has provided the means, and his son who has made it possible.

You can believe it, or not, but you cannot escape it, it will happen.

BALONEY!

Nope
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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10/7/2015 6:34:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/7/2015 5:39:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/7/2015 4:29:42 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
If you learned more, you'd be more interesting to talk to, and your ideas would matter more to people other than yourself.
I don't wish to be interesting to talk to.
Well, at least you needn't count yourself among the people you're disappointing then. :D

I wish to help as many as possible to save their eternal lives.
You mean help them be more like you. To be as right as you are right, as wrong as you are wrong, as insightful as you are insightful, as deluded as you are deluded. Since everything you offer comes by rote from others, you haven't the authority or the expertise to offer more than that.

And that returns me to my point: what makes you feel that anyone should want to be more like you?

What qualities do you think you evidence that a parakeet or photocopier doesn't have more abundantly?