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Religion has its place???

comoncents
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9/17/2010 3:06:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
History has shown the religion has done wonderful things for societies, as well as doing some harm.

Religion has shown itself to have a legitimate place in this world, and has been good for some.

Why the qualm here on DDO with religion?
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 3:12:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:06:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
Religion has shown itself to have a legitimate place in this world, and has been good for some.

Lies can't produce that much good, and ultimately, the bad results of the lie outweigh the good.

Why the qualm here on DDO with religion?

It's false, immoral, and inhibits and suppresses reason.

Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world? How about a world filled with a bunch of Aristotles, Platos, Spinozas, Wittensteins, Heideggers, and Paines rather than Komeinis and Ratzingers.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 3:14:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:13:54 PM, Mirza wrote:
Geo, you already believe Illuminati rule the world, so why do you not stop this mad nonsense?

Ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the person.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
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9/17/2010 3:16:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:14:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:13:54 PM, Mirza wrote:
Geo, you already believe Illuminati rule the world, so why do you not stop this mad nonsense?

Ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the person.
I did. You do not want religious people to rule the world, yet you believe that Illuminati rule it already, including having a control of religion. Now that is a grave contradiction and plain illogic.
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 3:19:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:16:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:14:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the person.
I did. You do not want religious people to rule the world,

False. I don't want ANYBODY to rule the world, religious or not. I honestly don't care about politicians religious convictions, they're still ruling.

yet you believe that Illuminati rule it already, including having a control of religion. Now that is a grave contradiction and plain illogic.

Please syllogistically demonstrate the contradiction because as it stands, there is no contradiction.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
I-am-a-panda
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9/17/2010 3:21:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:06:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
History has shown the religion has done wonderful things for societies, as well as doing some harm.

Name one thing religion does that something else can't do. Charity? Governments and a multitude of secular organisations do that. Meaning to life? Philosophy can handle that adequately. Comfort? Lots of other things handle that too.

Religion is a multitude of organisations in competition. Unlike other organisations in competition, these like to hold monopolies and competition is often detrimental. So, war occurs. This also leads to things such as purges, inquisitions, and various forms of murder and torture, something religion provides that other things generally don't.

It's a cliché, but religion is a major reason for a lot of wars, or at least a factor.




Religion has shown itself to have a legitimate place in this world, and has been good for some.

It's not good to live in an illusion. The illusion's nice but reality is, well, reality.


Why the qualm here on DDO with religion?

Because of the above.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
comoncents
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9/17/2010 3:25:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:12:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:06:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
Religion has shown itself to have a legitimate place in this world, and has been good for some.

Lies can't produce that much good, and ultimately, the bad results of the lie outweigh the good.

Some say that the Illuminati are a lie.

Why the qualm here on DDO with religion?

It's false,

So, is barney but it helps kids.

immoral,

Not all religion is immoral; in fact, many would say that without religion the world is immoral.

and inhibits and suppresses reason.


No, it does not. (by the way, Christianity is not the only religion, some would say that illuminati is a form of religion)

Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world?

People would feel that there is no hope for life after death.
Maybe, anarchy.

How about a world filled with a bunch of Aristotles, Platos.

They still had a place for religion.
They were influenced by religion, and called for a "good" ruler, unlike Machiavelli.
Mirza
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9/17/2010 3:36:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:19:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
False. I don't want ANYBODY to rule the world, religious or not. I honestly don't care about politicians religious convictions, they're still ruling.
You said, "Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world?"

That is what I am arguing against.

Please syllogistically demonstrate the contradiction because as it stands, there is no contradiction.
You said, "... instead of religion dominating the world..." Now, you do not believe that it does, but that Illuminati do - so your argument is fully invalid. If there is anything that you should attack, it is Illuminati, since you believe they control religions. Look at the cause, not the problem.
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 3:39:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:25:33 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:12:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lies can't produce that much good, and ultimately, the bad results of the lie outweigh the good.

Some say that the Illuminati are a lie.

Red Herring.

It's false,

So, is barney but it helps kids.

No, Barney is admitted fiction and does not proclaim to be true.

immoral,

Not all religion is immoral; in fact, many would say that without religion the world is immoral.

It doesn't matter what they say. Religion is inherently immoral whether it commands good or bad actions. Doing good merely because a higher power commands you to, does not make you moral. I'd say, morality can ONLY exist without God.

"It doesn't require divine sanction or permission. We are proud to say [morality] is innate in us, it is something we can all aspire to. But we do not get it from [God]. If we did, that would degrade it. It would mean it wasn't heroic, it wasn't brave, it wasn't individual, it wasn't exemplary. It didn't deserve anything because it would be in the hope of a either a reward from big brother or for fear of punishment. It abolishes morality, it destroys ethics!" - Christopher Hitchens

and inhibits and suppresses reason.


No, it does not.

Yes, because faith is about believing in something, despite all the evidence and reason to the contrary. People will believe in Jesus no matter what because they have faith in him. Every time people bring logical arguments or scientific evidence against religion, they say God is beyond logic or that he is not bound by scientific law. That is directly antithetical to reason.

(by the way, Christianity is not the only religion, some would say that illuminati is a form of religion)

The Illuminati is in a sense, a religious group and they are a perfect example of a group trying to suppress and control people. I honestly don't see how this is an argument against me. You seem to be agreeing with me here.

Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world?

People would feel that there is no hope for life after death.
Maybe, anarchy.

Exactly. We would have a free society of profound and great thinkers who accept reality as it is.

How about a world filled with a bunch of Aristotles, Platos.

They still had a place for religion.
They were influenced by religion, and called for a "good" ruler, unlike Machiavelli.

Maybe a couple that I listed, but the majority of the philosophers I listed were against religion.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 3:47:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:36:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:19:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
False. I don't want ANYBODY to rule the world, religious or not. I honestly don't care about politicians religious convictions, they're still ruling.
You said, "Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world?"

That is what I am arguing against.

There is a huge misunderstanding of my use of the word "dominate." I didn't mean religion or philosophy controlling the world. I meant if the majority of the people adhered to philosophical thought rather than religious thought.

Basically, when I said "dominate" I meant become the most wide-spread. Like, if I say Microsoft dominates the world in computer sales, I don't mean they actually dominate, I mean they are the most wide-spread among the world.

Please syllogistically demonstrate the contradiction because as it stands, there is no contradiction.
You said, "... instead of religion dominating the world..." Now, you do not believe that it does, but that Illuminati do - so your argument is fully invalid.

Again, I don't believe religion controls the world in the sense that a king rules the world. I meant that religion PERVADES the world.

If there is anything that you should attack, it is Illuminati, since you believe they control religions. Look at the cause, not the problem.

Actually, I blame both. I do think that religion is self-sustaining without the help of the Illuminati, though they do tend to overlap. Not all religious leaders are Illuminati, but some are.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
badger
Posts: 11,793
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9/17/2010 3:48:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:13:54 PM, Mirza wrote:
Geo, you already believe Illuminati rule the world, so why do you not stop this mad nonsense?

believing there is a super rich group of people that rule the world is far less of a stretch than believing there's a god who creates worlds and writes books as hobbies.

i kinda believe that there's a super rich group with incredible influence on the world. a very possible by product of capitalism from what i understand of it.

i don't however believe every little bit of nonsense i read on the internet, but i doubt geo does either.
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Mirza
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9/17/2010 3:49:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:47:01 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:36:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:19:56 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
False. I don't want ANYBODY to rule the world, religious or not. I honestly don't care about politicians religious convictions, they're still ruling.
You said, "Instead of religion dominating the world, what if philosophical study dominated the world?"

That is what I am arguing against.

There is a huge misunderstanding of my use of the word "dominate." I didn't mean religion or philosophy controlling the world. I meant if the majority of the people adhered to philosophical thought rather than religious thought.

Basically, when I said "dominate" I meant become the most wide-spread. Like, if I say Microsoft dominates the world in computer sales, I don't mean they actually dominate, I mean they are the most wide-spread among the world.

Please syllogistically demonstrate the contradiction because as it stands, there is no contradiction.
You said, "... instead of religion dominating the world..." Now, you do not believe that it does, but that Illuminati do - so your argument is fully invalid.

Again, I don't believe religion controls the world in the sense that a king rules the world. I meant that religion PERVADES the world.

If there is anything that you should attack, it is Illuminati, since you believe they control religions. Look at the cause, not the problem.

Actually, I blame both. I do think that religion is self-sustaining without the help of the Illuminati, though they do tend to overlap. Not all religious leaders are Illuminati, but some are.
All your arguments are sneak-outs so I have nothing to address. Basically, "dominate" was turned into "widespread" and you now do not only blame religion but "also" Illuminati.
Mirza
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9/17/2010 3:51:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:48:17 PM, badger wrote:
believing there is a super rich group of people that rule the world is far less of a stretch than believing there's a god who creates worlds and writes books as hobbies.
Sends a Message in the form of a book. It is the best way to communicate through text.

And some green reptilians are also super rich - because Geo certainly seems to believe in them.

i kinda believe that there's a super rich group with incredible influence on the world. a very possible by product of capitalism from what i understand of it.

i don't however believe every little bit of nonsense i read on the internet, but i doubt geo does either.
OK.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/17/2010 3:58:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:06:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
History has shown the religion has done wonderful things for societies, as well as doing some harm.



Religion has shown itself to have a legitimate place in this world, and has been good for some.

Why the qualm here on DDO with religion?

You could argue that in the absence of religion similar secular organisations could have arisen to fulfill the same roles, but I am sympathetic to what you are saying. Medieval monastries were economic, political and intellectual powerhouses for instance. However it was all built on the back of oppression etc.

You could construct similar arguments for the benefit of slavery etc.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
badger
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9/17/2010 3:59:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:51:13 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:48:17 PM, badger wrote:
believing there is a super rich group of people that rule the world is far less of a stretch than believing there's a god who creates worlds and writes books as hobbies.
Sends a Message in the form of a book. It is the best way to communicate through text.

and why couldn't he just come down from wherever he is and just tell us he exists in person?

And some green reptilians are also super rich - because Geo certainly seems to believe in them.

i'd say people sometimes convince themselves of things to make life more exciting/bearable/whateverthefvcktheywantittobe :) conspiracy theories are fun.

i kinda believe that there's a super rich group with incredible influence on the world. a very possible by product of capitalism from what i understand of it.

i don't however believe every little bit of nonsense i read on the internet, but i doubt geo does either.
OK.
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Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:10:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 3:59:16 PM, badger wrote:
and why couldn't he just come down from wherever he is and just tell us he exists in person?
We need to strive to strengthen our Faith and do good.

i'd say people sometimes convince themselves of things to make life more exciting/bearable/whateverthefvcktheywantittobe :) conspiracy theories are fun.
Indeed.
I-am-a-panda
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9/17/2010 4:11:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:10:13 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 3:59:16 PM, badger wrote:
and why couldn't he just come down from wherever he is and just tell us he exists in person?
We need to strive to strengthen our Faith and do good.


So you need to believe blindly before any proof is shown?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:19:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:11:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
So you need to believe blindly before any proof is shown?
I can consider proof what you do not - and I do.
annhasle
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9/17/2010 4:21:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:19:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:11:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
So you need to believe blindly before any proof is shown?
I can consider proof what you do not - and I do.

I don't think you know what "proof" really is, if you claim to have it. But I'd like to hear what you deem to be "proof" of a God.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
badger
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9/17/2010 4:21:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:19:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:11:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
So you need to believe blindly before any proof is shown?
I can consider proof what you do not - and I do.

retardation isn't commonly bragged about.
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Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:22:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:21:17 PM, annhasle wrote:
I don't think you know what "proof" really is, if you claim to have it. But I'd like to hear what you deem to be "proof" of a God.
Everything. Everything I see is proof of a planner because my logic tells me that someone was behind all this. I see purpose in life, and see things that are too complex to have been formed by no control.
Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:23:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:21:21 PM, badger wrote:
retardation isn't commonly bragged about.
If you wish to discuss, use logic, rationality, and common sense. If you want to brag about retardation while making nonsensical comments, then please be aware that I have little interest in wasting my time.
I-am-a-panda
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9/17/2010 4:24:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:19:55 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:11:32 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
So you need to believe blindly before any proof is shown?
I can consider proof what you do not - and I do.

Proof being, what, exactly?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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9/17/2010 4:25:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:23:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:21:21 PM, badger wrote:
retardation isn't commonly bragged about.
If you wish to discuss, use logic, rationality, and common sense. If you want to brag about retardation while making nonsensical comments, then please be aware that I have little interest in wasting my time.

nor do i :)
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annhasle
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9/17/2010 4:26:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:22:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:21:17 PM, annhasle wrote:
I don't think you know what "proof" really is, if you claim to have it. But I'd like to hear what you deem to be "proof" of a God.
Everything. Everything I see is proof of a planner because my logic tells me that someone was behind all this. I see purpose in life, and see things that are too complex to have been formed by no control.

Ah, the classic "Life is too beautiful to be created by chance" argument... If we have solid theories like evolution and natural selection, I'm hesitant to call that proof. I believe the term you're looking for is... "wishful thinking".
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
GeoLaureate8
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9/17/2010 4:26:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:22:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/17/2010 4:21:17 PM, annhasle wrote:
I don't think you know what "proof" really is, if you claim to have it. But I'd like to hear what you deem to be "proof" of a God.
Everything. Everything I see is proof of a planner because my logic tells me that someone was behind all this. I see purpose in life, and see things that are too complex to have been formed by no control.

Why does it have to be a "someone"? What if the Universe was self-sustaining, what if each quantum particle was intelligent or purpose driven, what if the Universe naturally turns simple phenomena to grow into complex phenomena. There are many other alternatives than saying "Goddidit."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:27:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:24:13 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Proof being, what, exactly?
The above.

Nobody has proof of the length of the universe (being infinite/finite). Nobody has proof of any beginning. Nobody has proof of abiogenesis. There are lots of things that one may or may not consider proof, but I consider structure and systematic design to always come from a higher authority. That is what I learn throughout life.
Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:28:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:26:51 PM, annhasle wrote:
Ah, the classic "Life is too beautiful to be created by chance" argument... If we have solid theories like evolution and natural selection, I'm hesitant to call that proof. I believe the term you're looking for is... "wishful thinking".
No, it is not. I am not arguing that way. I am arguing universally. Structure of the universe, formation of it, systematic control, all that. Not "beautiful setting of the sun."
Mirza
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9/17/2010 4:29:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 9/17/2010 4:26:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Why does it have to be a "someone"? What if the Universe was self-sustaining, what if each quantum particle was intelligent or purpose driven, what if the Universe naturally turns simple phenomena to grow into complex phenomena. There are many other alternatives than saying "Goddidit."
No, there are no valid ones. There has to be absolute authority over a system. A system having formed itself has no absolute authority.